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#26 2026-05-04 08:06:27
- Void
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
While I am interested in the Ocean methods I have worked towards, I am fully on board with the notion of orbital data centers. I want that understood. Typical sports minded people (Who are typical minds), think in terms of binary contests. I tend not to .
The reason about the nutrients in the Oceans is a comfort to me.
I have lived a life where the powers that have put myself and many other people into prolonged stress.
They do not want western peoples to produce Carbon.
But Energy producers will have not prohibition put on them. So, then in my world the European??? powers that put the prohibition on Western peoples, have no right to do so, and even though they have tried with all their might to kill Shale and perhaps Tar Sands, I promote both of them because I know we have been being raped by the world powers.
At this tine as well third world powers have been given license to unlimited expansion of the production of Carbon into the Air.
I am afraid that I think that what has really happened is that upon the use of China to combat the Soviet Union, and the emergence of OPEC, money in the hands of non-western peoples have allow the bending of the will of the west by bribes to western politicians.
The plan was to set up a no-win situation for the West. But in the Oceans both cold and nutrients, I see a win possibility for the West.
I think also we can factor in the European urge to create the super man. It should not exist at this point but I think it does. The idea that conflict and cruelty will kill off the weak and cause the emergences of s superior race.
I will not go into further detail but if you consider the possibility that this is all a game from the elites, who expect to buy they way out of trouble, it could explain WWI and WWI, and how the Europeans have appeared to do every stupid thing to their countries that they could find to do.
If you took Darwinism to heart as many of them probably did, it may be that they often take common people as not worth the air they breathe.
The idea that the application of cruelty can lead to advancement, is an easy choice for the spoiled and lazy minds.
I want to side-step their idiot plans.
Ending Pending 
Last edited by Void (2026-05-04 08:19:25)
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#27 2026-05-11 07:37:03
- Void
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
I am wondering the morning about Mars and data centers.
Query: "Sun Synchronous orbit of Mars"
Image Quote: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun-synchronous_orbit
Quote:
A Sun-synchronous orbit (SSO) around Mars is a type of orbit where the satellite passes over any given point of the planet's surface at the same local mean solar time. This orbit is particularly useful for imaging and reconnaissance satellites, as it provides consistent lighting conditions for data collection.
Precession: The orbital plane of the satellite precesses approximately one degree eastward each day, keeping pace with Mars' revolution around the Sun.
1
Applications: SSO is beneficial for satellites that require precise illumination angles, such as weather and remote-sensing instruments.
1
Examples: Several Martian satellites, like the Mars Global Surveyor, have been placed into Sun-synchronous orbits to optimize their operational efficiency.
1For more detailed information, you can refer to the sources and.
Sun Synchronous orbit of Mars that passes near the two poles?
Quote:
About 93.1 degrees
A sun-synchronous orbit of Mars that passes near the two poles is characterized by an inclination of about 93.1 degrees. This type of orbit allows the spacecraft to maintain a nearly constant angle from the Sun to Mars, crossing the equator at roughly the same local time every day. The Mars Global Surveyor mission utilized a sun-synchronous orbit with a descending node orientation of 2:00 p.m., ensuring consistent lighting conditions for imaging and data collection.
The Planetary Society
+1
Some questions remain, such as how high can the altitude be? The lower limit of course is the atmosphere, but how hich of an orbit can you have?
Query: "how high can a Sun synchronous orbit of Mars be?"
Quote:
Approximately 378 km
A Sun-synchronous orbit of Mars can be maintained at an altitude of approximately 378 km. This type of orbit allows the satellite to cross the equator at the same local time every day, which is useful for imaging and reconnaissance missions.
Wikipedia
So, I have a measure of uncertainty about this, but if we tried to translate proposed a Unsynchronous Satellite system to Mars, it may be able to project energy from orbit to ice deposits on the surface of Mars.
Unlike for Earth the source of materials for solar power methods in orbit could be from Phobos and Deimos, and you would not need a Mass Driver to reach orbit with the materials.
The situation for Mars might be different though, where most of the data processing chips might be in water reservoirs on Mars, and power might be projected to them from orbit.
In the case of the poles and Korolev Crater, large melt water reservoirs, likely covered in protected ice layers, might serve as radiators.
The water reservoirs might also support life that consumes Hydrogen and Martian Atmosphere.
Water could be split to provide Oxygen for various uses, and Hydrogen.
Query:
Microbes that live on Hydrogen and CO2 and produce Methane?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanogen
Quote:
Methanogens
Microbes that live on hydrogen and CO2 and produce methane include methanogens, which are anaerobic archaea. They utilize hydrogen gas (H2) and carbon dioxide (CO2) as substrates to produce methane through a process called methanogenesis. Methanogens thrive in anaerobic environments, such as wetlands, the digestive tracts of animals, and landfills, where oxygen is absent. They play a crucial role in the global carbon cycle by converting organic matter into methane, which is a potent greenhouse gas.
Wikipedia
+4
If they consume Martian atmosphere and Hydrogen, they will produce biomass and a gas mix of Methane, Nitrogen, and Argon.
Using Cast Basalt pipe this could be transferred round the planet's surface.
https://cbpengineering.com/pdf/CBP-Basalt_Pipe.pdf
Unlike water methane should not freeze on Mars. Anywhere it was delivered it could be reacted with Oxygen from CO2, to produce water.
So, you could perhaps make ice covered water reservoirs with such a process, almost anywhere on the Planet.
So, Mars/Phobos/Deimos as a large thinking machine may be a path to follow.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-05-11 08:35:06)
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#28 2026-05-13 09:08:57
- Void
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
So, I am considering what will "Saturate" first, in the idea of a "Space Junk Business".
So, I read that Star links last about 5 years. They are then burned up in the Earth's atmosphere. That may or may not remain the process for Star Links.
Data Center Satellites will be in a higher orbit, I believe. So, many what about recycling them?
What about recycling Starships of a certain type in orbit, since you will already have a recycle process in orbit for the data center Satellites.
Yes of course, it will be desirable to have "Down-Mass" Starships, but because of issues of "Saturation", it may make sense to make One-Time Starships.
It cannot be helped that you must have a launch facility for every Starship launch. But if you land all Starships back to Earth, then you may interfere with the Launching facilities as they may be saturated.
The value of the Starship materials may be greater in orbit than to return to Earth, if Starships could be recycled into parts for Data Center Satellites. And in doing this you relieve the saturation of the landing facilities. Saturated landing facilities might also interfere with launches, and cause them to be saturated.
It might be that "Down-Mass" Starships might be used to bring raptor engines and other special parts back down to Earth for reuse. Or, it might be that the raptor engines even could be recycled for building structures in space.
With presumed artificial labor, it might make sense to make a "Plain-Jane" type of Starship for One-Time use. In some cases, the more of something you make the lower the price per unit. But this might be especially true if the 'Plain-Janes" could be recycled in orbit for something useful like "Data Center Satellites.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-05-13 09:20:52)
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#29 2026-05-15 05:33:54
- Void
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
A Utube presenter "Scott Manley" made mention of a company that intends to make a rocket 2nd stage into a data center.
So this morning I asked a question: "Making a rocket 2nd stage into a data center?"
As usual, my phone does a better job:
Making a rocket 2nd stage into a data center?
Converting a rocket's second stage into a orbital data center is an emerging aerospace concept designed to utilize the already launched structure as a computing platform in space aiming to meet high AI demand while reducting hardware waste
Key Players and Developments (As of May 2026).
> Cowboy Space (Formerly Aetherflux):
This startup raised $275 million in Seres B funding to develop this exact technology. They plan to use their own in--house developed rockets, where the second stage becomes a 1-megawatt data center module once in Low Earth Orbit (LEO).Alternative Approaches: While Cowboy Space Focuses on utilizing the second stage itself, other concepts including "Project Suncatcher" (reportedly involving SpaceX and Google) , are exploring massive satellite constellations to create orbital AI compute.
. Timeline: Cowboy Space aims for its first satellite demonstration in 2026/2027 and a full rocket launch by 2028.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA22UPVQ Quote:
There aren’t enough rockets for space data centers. Cowboy Space raised $275 million to build them.
Story by Tim Fernholz • 3d •
4 min read
I have been thinking about the above for a bit now.
What I am wondering is if propellant tankers can be converted in orbit to be such data centers.
A propellant tanker perhaps does not need a prescribable hatch. Plain Jane in nature.
If a subsequent launch could bring fixtures like solar panels, and the chips-etc. then I have an idea for a "Chain-Mail radiator method.
https://stablediffusionweb.com/image/24 … n-mail-art
Not this particular style, but a chain-mail wrapper, or jacket, or sleeve could be wrapped around the outer skin of a 2nd stage in LEO>
Vacuum welding could be used to bond it to the skin of the ship. In the case of Starship, a form of Stainless Steel.
Properly done this might increase the radiating surface of the structure, radiating heat into the universe.
Probably the wrapped wand stage would be placed behind a solar array to be shaded. The Chips-etc. would be mounted inside of the structure, perhaps somehow bonded to the inner wall of the shell.
For a fluid heat pump system might be used. If you raise the skin of the ship to 180 degrees C then the other side of the system would be cold.
The higher the temperature of the radiator the more heat it can radiate.
One propellent tank cold one hot.
https://www.enerin.no/hoegtemp
Quote:
Decarbonize now with Enerin’s ultra high-temperature HoegTemp® heat pumps. Enerin’s unique, patented technology and experience supplies industrial heat up to 250°C, with market leading efficiency and performance.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-05-15 06:05:31)
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#30 2026-05-16 08:23:54
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
I do see some complications with using chain mail as radiator surface, as you need to control when and how vacuum welding may occur.
Instead, I tm thinking of radiator tiles, quite different from insulating of aerobraking tiles.
I would think that Aluminum or some alloy of Aluminum would be preferred. In the case of a "Starship", it might be possible to contact these to the outer surface of a device like a Starship, after it is in LEO. Starship being of a form of Stainless Steel might bond to such tiles, if a Steel coating were put on the base of the tiles.
But further I want magnetic properties to be inherent in the tiles so that if the come lose they may drift to a magnetic attractor.
Generally Stainless Steel and Aluminum do not favor magnetic properties.
Supposing that Aluminum was printed by 3D printing to make these radiator tiles, then it may be possible to embed tiny magnets into it during the process.
My interest in magnetic tiles, is that the tiles may be chipped by impactors, or come lose. I want them to tend to drift to a magnetic collection device of some sort.
I do not know if a data center in syn synchronous would be adversely affected by the presence of such a magnetic collector or not. Magnetism might cause displacement of orientation of a Satellite, but then if you use that as a method to guide the satellites orientation that may be a good thing.
I am running on the notions that WHAT GOES UP WE PREFER TO KEEP UP.
While for now it makes sense to dump dead Satellites into the atmosphere, once you have the means, you might recycle the materials of Satellites in orbit indefinitely, and it would be stupid both from a atmospheric pollution view or waste of resources to continue to dump these into the atmosphere.
My understanding is that if Starship or another method can lift mass to orbit for $200.00 or less then orbital data centers will be economically preferred. The hope is that a price between $10.00 to $100.00 will eventually be arrived at.
Pause...............
Starting with a one-time-tanker, what could be the economic benefits?
First, if the lift capacity might be 350 tons of cargo, (Because it is relatively light weight), You lift that much fluid cargo.
Fluid Cargo could be various things, like Oxygen, Methane, Hydrogen? water, oil. (Oil will contain Carbon, so then a path to Methane and Oxygen, using water).
The spent ships might have parts taken from them like engines and avionics to be reused?
The ships being perhaps bundled together might be used to deal with certain sized space junk. Put into the path of a correct sized space junk item, a puncture from the outside in may make a hole, but the opposite wall would collect the debris of that impact. So, these may also be used to shield other things that are desired to be protected, like space stations.
When that service is done these may then have their punctures repaired and might be outfitted to become the chassis of data centers.
To pay for the space junk clearance, perhaps international donations from space fairing nations might be obtained.
After a data center would wear out, it is possible that it could be refurbished. Soler panels recycled into something useful and also replaced, and perhaps chips upgraded.
As I have said, I don't think that it makes sense to dump data centers into the atmosphere.
I think one value of what I have provided is that if you need to send a mission to the Moon or Mars, You could have a batch of "Plain Jane" tanker starships and if you have enough launch towers launch them in rapid progression to fill a mission ship.
Then transport them to be bundled, extract valuable parts, and then use them to clear space junk (Of an appropriate size), and then convert them to data centers.
I think it might be a good way to go.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-05-16 08:58:01)
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#31 2026-05-16 16:31:41
- Void
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
Well, sure enough here it comes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKK0dgDIxKY
Quote:
SpaceX Megaconstellation Project May Endanger the Ozone Layer
Anton Petrov
1.6M subscribers
I like Anton Petrov and his message here is worth study in my opinion.
But it is best if this problem is addressed rationally. Otherwise, an opportunity for troublemakers to establish a Looters estate of interference, to extort money and power. Involve the usual suspects, the politicians, the news media and at lower levels frustrated apparently fertile young women, and their stupid alphas, and their frustrated beta's.
I think it is stupid to dump mass into the atmosphere in large quantities. For the reasons mentioned and because that mass has value.
Solar panels, very likely could have Oxygen extracted from their mass and may yield conductive materials that could be used in a Neumann Drive or Magdrive. Those both could toss most of their exhaust away from the atmoshere.
And most metals could be reprocessed to make things in orbit.
It is likely true that the Earth naturally gets metals and such dumped into it, but indeed there could be too much artificial stuff. I agree wit that.
But not surprise, I have been around for acid rain, Ozone depletion, Ice age coming, climate warming, now again climate cooling.
To some degree it is a good thing to consider what is happening and what can be done.
But this time let's not let the idiots overexcite all the people who need medication to get by.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-05-16 16:44:47)
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#32 2026-05-17 09:12:17
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
I am very comfortable with the idea that what I might say may only be approximately correct. Getting it wrong in some circumstances can promote eventually getting it right.
So, I have been thinking about stranded orbital starships. This would be a full fledged Starship that made to orbit, but is exhaling a problem that makes is unlikely to successfully return to the Earth's surface. There are choices in that situation.
-You could pay to repair it.
-Salvage parts to bring to the surface.
-Scuttle it into the Pacific Ocean.
-Scrap it to orbit.
Then there is the Falcon Heavy center core use method. It has turned out that it is not convenient to reuse the center core. So now they use it as a side core several times and then use it one time to be a center core.
So, you could develop life expectancy tables for Starships and hope to push them to orbital salvage after they have completed a calculated number of missions. You might do that as well for engines that have seen a lot of reuses.
For a time, Starships might become obsolete as well as they might be replaced by new models. So Scraping them to orbit may make sense.
Ships that are to be scrapped to orbit might have many accessories removed such as heat shield tiles, flaps and motors etc. Then they could lift the maximum amount of payload to orbit in a one-time-more reuse.
Then as I think I mentioned in another post it might be that mass production could produce a relatively low cost one-time-Starship.
If this mass were lifted to the 1000 km level, then I expect that it would be a long time before the atmosphere slowed them down. So, the mass might be included into the data center process.
Pause.........
I think that the above, thinking favors the nature of the Starship where a lot of dry mass is fully moved to orbit relative to the amount of payload mass.
Also because these ships are of metal mostly, they might feed a magdrive or Neumann Drive system, assisted by laser sent power.
Ships who's solar panels are powered by output from lasers, may have better performance than those that only use sunlight.
So, Neumann Drive or Magdrive tugs may be of value to tow these ships from LEO to Sun synchronous orbit.
Once in Sun Synchronous orbit not all parts of the Starships would be useful in data bases or other uses. So, some parts might be rendered into propellants for Magdrive or Neumann Drive.
My best guess is that some methods of Magdrive may be higher thrust than for Neumann Drive but Neumann Drive may have a high efficiency.
https://magdrive.space/
Quote:
Next-generation spacecraft propulsion
High-thrust electric propulsion systems for the space industry
Our family of electric plasma thrusters offers reliable, high-performance, storable electric propulsion solutions for critical space mission
Something nice from the U.K. I am thinking that higher power units or collections of units will emerge.
Here is a video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:
UK startup reimagines the future of spacecraft propulsion | REUTERS
YouTube
Reuters
1.9K views
On the other hand Neumann Drive from Australia, appears to be adaptive to many materials as propellants. Not sure if Magdrive can use all of those materials.
https://neumannspace.com/neumann-drive/
A video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR Quote:
Goodbye Xenon, Hello Cheap Metal: Why Neumann Drive Could Dominate Space Propulsion
YouTube
Space Startup News
20.6K views
It may also be true that these two thrust method could be used to grab large chunks of space junk in LEO and convert it to propellant or even structures.
This would greatly reduce the possible Kesler Syndrome.
So, these two groups have done important things.
Ending Pending
Obviously, the Moon of Earth and the Moons of Mars could be used to refuel these devices.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-05-17 09:59:37)
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#33 2026-05-28 07:26:22
- Void
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
Just now I am thinking about the heat from data center activity and how it might be used to distill water.
There could be a heat pump interposed between the data center and the distillation process.
Obviously, economics matter. But while it does make sense to expand data centers into space, installations on Earth might be suitable for "Training" tasks and may have lower time latency.
I am thinking about dumping heat into salt water such as the Salton Sea or Dead Sea.
A trick that might have value would be to put a layer of less salty water on top of such a body of water and to find a way to suppress wave action that may mix upper water layers that are less salty with lower layers that are less salty.
So, perhaps one ides would be to produce fresh water from brine, use if for a low toxicity purpose and then dump the used water on top of the brine lake/sea.
Probably I am thinking of solar panel installations that float on water and will calm wave action and also I am thinking of loops of fresh water canals, also covered by solar panels.
A body of water like the Salton Sea might have anti-evaporation methods imposed on it. Floating solar panel arrays, or very large floating bags of fresh water. While transparent bags to let the sunlight in may be the initial idea, actually an opaque surface that would have a pigment that rejects heat to the sky, might make sense. Then a large volume of fresh water inside, might support organic growth using Oxygen and Acetate.
https://www.sri.com/fcd_technology/self … -solution/
Both these freshwater floats and solar arrays may be used to inhibit water layer mixing from waves.
While reverse osmosis is currently the most promoted distillation process, I think that a heat pump like method that also exists might be used.
A vacuum type distillation process can reuse heat or cold that it produces. But if your heat could come from a data center to dump into the cold side of such a process, then the hot side of the process might produce industrial heat. And the working fluid for this being water, then you could produce a brine concentrate and fresh water.
The produced bring could be dropped to the bottom of the body of water, and the fresh be used to fill floating wave suppressing bladders.
Excess fresh water could be released into the open surface of the Salton Sea or Dead Sea.
If you could reduce evaporation then the body of water should swell.
The roof and vertical solar panels are intended to reject heat into the air and into the sky both during a sunny day and in the usually clear sky nights.
The power from the solar panels used in part to process salty into both brine and fresh water. The fresh water put inside of the float that the solar panels are mounted on. Also, Oxygen and Acetate would be produced to be supportive of the growth of Algae, Yeast, and maybe even some sort of vascular plant.
The produced organic matter to feed people directly or to feed fish in the less briny water.
Waves suppressed and less briny water placed on top of the brinier water. This might even cause salt solids to precipitate on the bottom of the lake.
I have read that during the Ice Age the evaporation rate in the great basin was reduced and that allowed the large lakes to form.
In a similar fashion it might be possible to suppress the evaporation of the waters to cause lakes in the interior of the Great Basin to grow in size.
Vertical solar panels are best for morning and afternoon electricity production. But this device might be sun following, so that might make is productive throughout the day.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-05-28 08:37:55)
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#34 2026-05-29 09:12:51
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
This rough drawing in the previous post:
.....probably needs more attention, in my opinion.
Where I conceived of it in a body of salt water, I also think it could be quite good in natural fresh water lakes and reservoirs.
In mimicking a apparent mode of analysis that I think Elon Musk might use, the atoms for this and the labor might bring down the cost.
It seems that Canada has a massive amount of ore for Aluminum, and that Australia may have a massive Iron Ore body.
America and many other nations have large sources of Carbon. Coal, Tar Sands, etc. This to make plastics and woody products.
So the materials exist and the production of artificial labor is just starting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d … ver_system
Image Quote: 
Query: "Rate of evaporation from Lake Mede?"
https://www.usgs.gov/centers/nevada-wat … r-colorado
Quote:
Nevada Water Science Center Science
Evaporation from Lake Mead and Lake Mohave, Lower Colorado River Basin, Nevada and Arizona
Active
By Nevada Water Science Center March 11, 2026
Quote:
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Annual Evaporation Rate from Lake Mead
The average annual evaporation from Lake Mead is about 1,896 millimeters (mm), which equals 6.22 feet USGS.gov. This figure comes from U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) measurements using a combination of eddy covariance and energy balance methods, which directly measure turbulent water vapor flux and available energy in the system USGS.gov.Context and Comparison
Lake Mohave (lower Colorado River) has a slightly lower average annual evaporation of about 1,718 mm (5.64 ft), mainly because its inflowing water from Hoover Dam is cooler than Lake Mead’s inflow, reducing the energy available for evaporation USGS.gov.In U.S. customary units, this is roughly 80 inches per year coloradoriverscience.org.
Evaporation is highly seasonal, with the highest monthly rates in summer due to intense solar radiation, warm water temperatures, and often higher wind speeds in the Mojave Desert www.mygeoquest.com+1.
Why Evaporation is High
Several factors drive Lake Mead’s high evaporation:High solar radiation in the arid climate.
Warm water temperatures from inflows and summer heating.
Wind that removes saturated air above the surface, enhancing evaporation.
Low humidity in the surrounding desert air www.mygeoquest.com+1.
Measurement Methods
Eddy covariance: Directly measures water vapor flux and wind vectors at high frequency (10 times per second) USGS.gov.Energy balance: Uses water temperature, reservoir volume, and meteorological data to estimate available energy for evaporation USGS.gov.
Practical Implication
For water managers, this means that about 1/6 of the water stored in Lake Mead is lost to evaporation annually, making it a significant component of water budget calculations in the Colorado River Basin coloradoriverscience.org.If you need monthly breakdowns or real-time data, the USGS Water Data for the Nation site (Site #360500114465601) provides continuous measurements from the eddy covariance station USGS.gov.
So for the surface area that this device may occupy, Evaporative cooling should be very reduced. But the vertical solar panels can have support frames that are piping and in effect heat exchangers. So, dry cooling can be done. In the day you might cool the solar panels to increase their efficiency and lifespan. During the night you might use the solar panels integrated with the support piping to cool the water inside of the device which is shown as green. So, you could store night cooling in that water and use it for day cooling of the solar panels.
The panels being more efficient from being cooled, will generate more electricity to pay for the energy of pumping.
At night a power source will be needed, batteries or these dams actually generate power don't they.
In the day the platforms can be sun following. At night they may orient to allow cool winds to carry away heat.
If it is true that abundance can deflate the cost of such devices, perhaps you could cover 75% of a reservoirs surface with these, greatly reducing evaporation.
The devices then would generate electricity and the interior pool could support aquaculture that runs off of Oxygen and Acetate that is created using that electric power.
For small lakes perhaps in the Midwest this also could be done. Even in winter, as you could use f bubbler systerm to remove the ice around a circular boat that could rotate.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … -6138-0_31
Quote:
Design of Longitudinal Air Bubbler System Inside Ship Lock
Conference paper
Open Access
First Online: 26 February 2023
pp 346–362
Cite this conference paperYou have full access to this
open access
conference paper
Although I think that just a stream of water might work also. In the winter at the bottom of lakes and ponds deeper than 6 feet the water temperature is typically 39 degrees Fahrenheit. (1.8288 meters 3.88888889 C).
Canadians might be interested in such things as they have many lakes.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-05-29 09:44:59)
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#35 2026-05-29 13:19:14
- Void
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
More about this that is also included in the previous two posts:
So, the question I would pose is what amount of night heating would solar panels tolerate without damage?
https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/how-h … panels-get
Quote:
Updated 1 year ago
How hot do solar panels get and how does it affect my system?
Written by Andy Sendy
Quote:
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Heat Limits and Performance of Solar Panels
Solar panels are designed to operate in high temperatures, but their efficiency drops as they get hotter. Understanding their heat limits and how to manage them is key to maximizing performance.Typical operating temperature range
Normal operation: 120°F–160°F (about 49°C–71°C) in most climates solarguyspro.com.
Peak summer temps: 160°F–185°F (71°C–85°C) solarguyspro.com.
Extreme desert climates: 185°F–195°F (85°C–90°C) and higher solarguyspro.com.
Maximum rated temperature: Most panels are rated to withstand up to 185°F (85°C) without damage SolarReviews+1.
Why panels get hot
Panels absorb sunlight, and the portion not converted to electricity becomes heat. Dark cell surfaces absorb more radiation, and factors like low wind, poor airflow, dark roofing, and high humidity can raise temperatures solarguyspro.com+1.Efficiency vs. temperature
Panels are most efficient at 25°C (77°F) under Standard Test Conditions SolarReviews.
For every 1°C above 25°C, output typically drops by the panel’s temperature coefficient (often around -0.30%/°C for high-quality panels like SunPower Maxeon 3) solartechonline.com.
In hot climates, this can mean 2–4% efficiency loss per 10°C rise, worth hundreds of dollars annually solartechonline.com.
Do they overheat?
No — panels are built to handle high heat without melting, cracking, or losing structural integrity SolarReviews+1. The concern is not overheating, but reduced efficiency in hot weather.Tips to manage heat and maintain performance
Keep 6 inches of clearance under panels for airflow solartechonline.com.
Avoid shading from hot roofing materials.
Choose panels with low temperature coefficients for hot climates solartechonline.com.
Monitor temperatures with smart systems to detect hotspots or cooling needs solartechonline.com.
Bottom line:
Solar panels can get very hot, but they are engineered to handle it. The main impact of heat is lower efficiency, not damage. Proper installation, ventilation, and panel selection can help maintain peak output year-round.
So the green fluid reservoir could also double as a thermal reservoir. Most likely taking on heat in the day and rejecting heat to the solar panels integrated into a heat exchanger arrangement which would be vertical.
You could also involve a heat pump which would be very well able to heat the solar panels to above 100 degrees F at night. Or above 50 degrees C if you need it that way.
Desert nights tend to be cool or cold at night, perhaps a bit moderated if near a large body of water.
To run a heat pump at night of course you would need a nighttime power source.
Anyway, this method might also incorporate anti-solar cells on one side of the solar panel/radiators.
Unlike bifacial East-West solar panels, the Solar panel side could face the sun from sunup to sundown, if the platform can rotate that much.
The dry air cooling at night using a heat pump would conserve water of course.
If you have enough cooling capacity, then this platform could host data center tech. And so curiously you would be able to recover a bit of the wasted thermal energy into electricity from the data center.
https://now.solar/2026/02/22/anti-solar … -uc-davis/
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Anti-Solar Cells: A Photovoltaic Cell That Works at Night – UC Davis
Posted on February 22, 2026 by Now.Solar
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Recent Developments in Anti-Solar Cells
Anti-solar cells, also called nighttime solar panels or anti-solar panels, are emerging as a promising complement to traditional photovoltaics by generating electricity at night using radiative cooling rather than sunlight UMA Technology.Core Principle
Unlike conventional solar cells, which rely on absorbing sunlight, anti-solar cells exploit the temperature difference between the Earth’s surface and the night sky. After sunset, surfaces cool rapidly by emitting infrared radiation into the clear night sky. Anti-solar panels are designed to reflect sunlight during the day and emit thermal radiation at night, creating a usable temperature gradient for power generation UMA Technology.How They Work
Daytime: The panel’s surface reflects most incoming sunlight to minimize heat absorption.Nighttime: The panel cools by radiating heat into the cold night sky, creating a temperature difference.
Energy Conversion: This temperature difference drives a thermoelectric generator or other heat-to-electricity device, producing electricity.
Recent Research & Innovations
UC Davis research has explored photovoltaic designs that can operate at night by integrating radiative cooling materials with thermoelectric elements now.solar.UMA Technology highlights that anti-solar panels can be paired with batteries or hybrid systems to provide continuous power, making them ideal for off-grid or remote applications UMA Technology.
Advances in radiative cooling materials and thermoelectric efficiency are improving the output and practicality of these devices.
Integration with solar-plus-storage systems is being tested to maximize overall energy yield.
Potential Applications
Off-grid and remote power where solar alone is insufficient.Hybrid renewable systems to extend generation beyond daylight hours.
Urban microgrids and rural electrification projects.
Challenges
Low power output compared to daytime solar panels.Material costs and efficiency limits of current thermoelectric materials.
Integration complexity with existing solar systems.
In summary, anti-solar cells are still in the early R&D and pilot deployment phase, but recent advances in radiative cooling materials and thermoelectric technology are making them a more viable nighttime energy source. They are best viewed as a complement to solar PV, not a replacement, in a diversified renewable energy strategy now.solar+1.
It may even work out that if one side of a vertical heat exchanger solar panel faces the sun to generate electricity in a sun-following system, that an anti-solar cell on the opposite or shaded side would generate electricity during the day. Maybe it could have a special cooling paint on it.
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#36 2026-06-02 18:33:28
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
Here is some evidence of the direction that floating solar power installations are going: https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topst … r-AA22NZfU
Quote:
Australia's floating solar array is doing a lot more than generating electricity
Story by Alec Hively • 3w •
4 min read
In two prior posts I have suggested an installation of vertical solar panels on water.
It is my hope that solar panels can be blended with flat heat exchangers so that at night the vertical fins can reject heat into the cool night air.
A closed platform as a float might also host plant crops such as Algae, Yeast, or Mushrooms that might be fed Oxygen and Acetate.
I have wondered how well duckweed or Hydrilla might grow on Acetate.
I And of course I am thinking that data centers might be hosted, if the cooling is relatively effective. And yet water could be conserved.
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#37 2026-06-04 08:20:26
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
So, here I have suggested a solar rotator in an individual pool of water as it's bearing: 
I understand that irrigated farming using California and other southwest fresh water is very important to America. But this might work like a cactus, conserving water.
So water from the Colorado river would be used to fill a very large number of these.
In this Solar Panels have fluid carrying structures that can serve to support and to act as heat exchangers. Although you might not need to use a heat pump, I suggest that at night the solar panels be used as radiator fins to dry cool the water inside the floating chamber. One side of the fins can be solar panels and the other side to be anti-solar panels. If enough dry cooling can be accomplished, then both agriculture and data devices might be supported.
The Float may have small windows and artificial light. The agriculture inside may be stimulated by that light, but primarily would be fed with Oxygen and Acetate.
This may allow the growth of many things. I suspect that Duckweed and Hydrilla may have a existing pathway for using Acetate. Other water type crops such as Yeast, Algae, and Macroalgae, may have such paths also.
I think that when things decay Acetate and other chemicals may be distributed into water and it probably makes sense for organisms adapted to water to use those chemicals.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 24-09682-7
I think it is likely that various water type organisms may use chemicals in the water such as Acetate, Hydrogen, Methane, and of course Oxygen.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/P … conditions.
Quote:
Acetate is an important intermediate in the turnover of organic matter in most aquatic sediments (Reeburgh, 1983). It is an end product of anaerobic fermentation, but also many aerobic microbes release acetate during imbalanced growth conditions.
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 18GB006129
Quote:
Global Biogeochemical Cycles
Research Article
Free Access
Significance of Acetate as a Microbial Carbon and Energy Source in the Water Column of Gulf of Mexico: Implications for Marine Carbon Cycling
Guang-Chao Zhuang, Tito D. Peña-Montenegro, Andrew Montgomery, Joseph P. Montoya, Samantha B. Joye
First published: 03 February 2019 https://doi.org/10.1029/2018GB006129Digital Object Identifier (DOI) view metrics
Although it might be reasonable to make these systems almost entirely solar in nature, I don't think it would hurt at all to pipe natural gas to them. This would make running heat pumps at night more practical, to extract heat from the device. Yes, it would put Carbon in the air, but if you captured the CO2, and produced Hydrogen during the day you could make Acetate and Oxygen for the agriculture inside of these.
And if you could get ahold of Hydrogen produced from Drilling to "Natural Hydrogen", then you could easily fix the Carbon from the CO2 into Acetate, I think.
So, of course the Colorado River is not the only desert river where this could be done.
Desert nights tend to be cool and cold, typically in temperate zones.
If you could make these things quite tight for water evaporation, then perhaps much desert could be used to do these processes.
As for the Materials needed, my hope is that if robotic labor gets to be very cheap, the structures will be affordable.
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#38 2026-06-04 09:12:16
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
As a supplement to the just prior post, I will note that if a system were watertight enough, you might use natural gas or Hydrogen to make water for it. Eventually this might be practical to use on Mars, which also has cold nights even more than Earth deserts.
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#39 Yesterday 08:54:52
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
Now I want to look again at what I think may become the orbital junk market.
Calliban has come up with an idea that I think can have value: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 28#p239628
Quote:
The image shows the concept. We take mixed silicates from, say, one of the Martian moons. This is compressed and sintered into thin rods and then chopped into short cylinders. Next, the cylinders are vacuum plated with a thin film of aluminium. The potential difference between the anode and cathode in the engine will be several tens of KV. The ceramic cylinders are fired through the tube passing through the fused silica block. The anode ring is mounted on the silica block.
That post #4 has more description and further posts up to at least #7 further elaborates.
The Starlinks currently are disposed of into the atmosphere. This may or may not continue, I am not sure.
The Sun-Synchronous Data Center Elements, will be at a higher orbit, so I expect that they are more easily put into the junk pile.
There are two issues. 1) I am already hearing the pannikins say that dumping satellites into the atmosphere will pollute it. Probably at some point this does become true. 2) Satellites sent to orbit will last 5-20 years??? At some point they might be refurbished. I think radiators and chassis parts might be most easily reused. But I think that solar panels are an example of something that might not be effectively rebuilt kind for kind.
It may be easier to use some parts for propellants than to try to use the recycled materials into new solar panels.
So, far I know of some types of propulsion that may use solids as propellants using electricity. Among them are:
1) Neumann Drive.
2) Magdrive.
3) Calliban Drive. Calliban drive has a non-conductive slug coated with a metal shell. The metal is vaporized by current flow and voltage to flash it into plasma, initiating the process. The hope then is that even the nonconductive slug inside will also convert to plasma. And all of the plasma will become electrically conductive. So, then a method of propulsion is perhaps practical. CalLiban has worked to cover concerns about the erosive nature of Oxygen plasma.
At first all the Satellites will come entirely from Earth materials. But later it is hoped that non-Earth sources such as the Moon may become active.
So, it makes sense that in some situations you might be able to use method #1, #2, and #3 to move loads around.
The objective of the Starship is to get the cost of mass to LEO down to $200.00/kg or less. Some people think that the $200.00 value is a boundary to the economic case for orbital data centers.
So, if that is achieved, then what is the limit to amount of Mass to LEO? Well number or ships, amount of launch sites on Earth, and amount of propellants available, are some limiting factors.
So, even without the Moon, there is going to be a "Junk Markets" in orbits.
Old Satellites might have a tug bring a robot to them to replace parts and then take the old parts to a processing center(s) to convert into other things. So sending payloads to the Moon, Mars, and other places could depend in part on the "Junk Markets" in orbits.
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#40 Yesterday 11:07:02
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
Here is a partial attempt at a water tank based radiator: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_cell
Image Quote: 
Shaped like a blood cell for maximum area. I intend that a wick material will cover the entire insides.
The tank and solar cells are intoned to be able to fit in something like the PEZ dispenser for Starlink.
The idea is to carry water out to an orbit like Sun Synchronous or other. So, this might have an appropriate thruster that can use the water as propellant.
After that use, the tank itself with a wick would have a fluid for the tank to wick.
The idea is that condensation and wicking will bring fluid to do evaporative cooling to the Compute features.
If water itself were used, then it could freeze up if too cold. So, a thermal balancing act might be useful. Also, an anti-freeze, maybe an Ammonia/Water mix.
Methods to counter tank rupture would include being in Sun Synchronous will limit temperature fluctuations. Also, some sort of double wall might be acceptable. Patching is likely also an option.
A tether system might release these to a higher orbit and then they would modify that to a destination, Then:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=water+thr … 1&hsmssg=0
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Water Thrusters in Space: How They Work and Why They Matter
Water thrusters in space are propulsion systems that use water as a propellant, either by splitting it into hydrogen and oxygen (electrolysis) or by converting it into plasma, to generate thrust in the vacuum of space.How They Work
Two main approaches are being developed:1. Water-Electrolysis Thrusters
These systems split water into hydrogen and oxygen using electricity, then recombine and expel the gases as superheated steam to produce thrust NASA Spinoff+1. The process avoids the need to store volatile chemical fuels, reducing risks and simplifying spacecraft design. NASA’s Tethers Unlimited Inc. has built the first viable water-electrolysis engines, focusing on CubeSats and small satellites NASA Spinoff.2. Water-Based Electric Thrusters (WET)
Led by the University of Bologna under Horizon Europe, the WET project converts water into plasma by first vaporizing it and then ionizing it with electricity Interesting Engineering+1. The resulting charged particles are accelerated through an electric field to produce thrust. This method is ideal for small satellites (500–1000 watts) and offers low power needs, making it suitable for missions with limited energy budgets Interesting Engineering.Advantages
Abundant fuel source: Water can be mined from the Moon, asteroids, or other celestial bodies, enabling in-situ resource utilization (ISRU) aviationmarie.space.Environmental benefits: No harmful emissions compared to chemical rockets Interesting Engineering.
Safety: Avoids handling and storing volatile propellants aviationmarie.space.
Cost-effective: Suitable for small, low-cost spacecraft like CubeSats NASA Spinoff.
Versatility: Can be used for orbit adjustments, lander/rover propulsion, and deep space missions aviationmarie.space.
Challenges
Materials corrosion: Managing hydrogen, oxygen, and superheated steam requires careful material selection to prevent contamination and degradation NASA Spinoff.Efficiency: While low-power, they may not match the thrust-to-power ratio of chemical rockets for heavy payloads.
Technology maturity: Still in development; no large-scale operational systems yet NASA Spinoff.
Applications
Satellite station-keeping and orbit adjustments.Lunar/Mars landers and rovers for in-situ fuel production.
CubeSats and SmallSats for low-cost missions.
Future deep space missions and asteroid mining aviationmarie.space.
In short, water thrusters represent a promising shift toward sustainable, in-space fuel production, with potential to revolutionize small satellite operations and enable more ambitious exploration missions.
A Space Elevator like system might have a orbital space station in its bottom end with considerable mass. Then an Electrodynamic Tether could extend upward to a release point.
The tethers could work against the Earth's magnetic field to raise the orbit. Then when the orbit were high enough water tanks can be released, until the assembly drops down to a limit. Then load more tanks and repeat.
Ideally the station could eject "Starfall" devices to enter the Earth's atmosphere, and in that manner also raise the orbit of the assembly. But some cargo's for Starfall will not tolerate large forces of acceleration of g forces, so only some might be suitable.
>>>
When a water tank made it to its destination excess water still in the tank could be harvested, and then a bit of an antifreeze added such as Ammonia. Then it could go into service as a Data Center.
The Tank itself might be reusable/patchable. The solar panels might be recycled to some other purpose after they are old. They might be replaced periodically. The Chips would probably be replaced periodically and upgraded as well.
The "Air-Pressure" in the tank could be very low. for fresh water 0 Degrees C might work, so then 6 millibars. But more likely maybe 50 millibars of steam. Maybe there would be a carrier gas like Nitrogen or even Oxygen.
As I have said you would not want the wick to freeze up, but rather have a constant stream of condensation on it. The condensation then I would expect to migrate to hot spots as the data chips will evaporate the water.
Of course, it has to be arranged that the cooling fluid will not short out the electronics.
That is what I am thinking of, it will be interesting to see what is actually done.
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#41 Yesterday 19:37:24
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
I think I want to make a diagram of a simplified version of the radiator I am suggesting for space data centers.
After a it might have been used as a water tank to bring some water to a location its further purpose is to be a radiator.
In zero g, I expect capillary action to still work. It might work very well.
Hydrophilic and Hydrophobic.
Swimming Pool Scene in the movie "Passengers" sort of asks some questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBWyq1xp-tk
A questionable source of gravity cuts out and then cuts back in. If she repelled water then maybe she could have gotten out of it.
If water wants to stick to her, it might want to stick to the insides of the tank, if the interior tank coating is of a proper character.
Anyway, the coating of water in zero g might be more than just wet cloth, might even sort of be maybe thicker.
I have used this many times: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
If the gas pressure were 100.6307 mbar, the temperature would be about 46 degrees C.
Of course, the processor case would be warmer than that.
This method allows a quicker transfer of heat from a small volume processor case into a much larger volume/surface area radiator, I beleive.
It will be noticed that the "Tank" does not have to hold a particularly high gas pressure inside of it.
If it does get punctured, robots should be on hand that could patch it and repair it.
I suggest arrays of Chevron Radiator fins on the outside of the tank to reduce puncture risk.
I show a row of 3 such fins here: 
I am imagining that these could be 3D printed to the outside of a tank with fine scale that would not add too much mass. They would also perhaps strengthen the tanks burst pressure. But I don't think high pressure is needed with water, but maybe more so with a Ammonia mixture.
The fins might reject heat into the universe but also might handle a small impactor acting like a spring or a collapse protection to prevent the tank from rupture. (For small impactors).
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#42 Today 08:13:04
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Re: Data Centers (Including Off World)
The Junk Market in orbit is part of what interests me.
The existing Junk, and future Junk, are of some value.
The practice of burning hardware up in the atmosphere is going to have pressures to limit/prohibit it. I am only noting that already a reaction to such a "Pollution" of the upper atmosphere. I am not advocating it, just realizing that these pressures are existing and likely to amplify.
So, then the better idea might be to jump ahead of the problem and make it an asset.
I only have a vague idea of "Starfall", my impression is that it can be launched by Falcon and Starship, and that it's heat shields will be reusable. Reusable means that they will not shed very many materials or will be refurbished after each recovery.
https://spacenews.com/faa-documents-out … -vehicles/
Quote:
FAA documents outline SpaceX plans for Starfall reentry vehicles
by Jeff Foust
May 31, 2026
Quote: 
https://interestingengineering.com/spac … uring-test
Quote:
SpaceX gets US approval to test new Starfall capsules for space manufacturing
Newly approved FAA test flights will see SpaceX’s Starfall reentry vehicle launch aboard Falcon 9 or Starship before splashing down in the Pacific.By
Chris Young
Space
Jun 01, 2026 08:45 AM EST
I think this would be very compatible with the "Expendable-Not-Really-2nd-Stage-Option". I think that could apply both to Falcon 9 and Starship, but likely not Falcon Heavy.
We say that the highest game is to recover all the hardware and reuse it. So, far that indicates that this will be hardware returned to the surface of the Earth. But what if you have a junk market in orbit?
Pause for more coffee..........
The idea so far has been to retire Falcon 9 as SpaceX will prefer to update entirely to Starship.
But even though Falcon 9 is going to be less profitable in some ways such as refurbishment between missions and thrust efficiency, Falcon 9 could be hosted in various places around the planet where Starship might be unsuitable.
For instance, some ideas have existed about launching from Indonesia or Australia, or some countries of the Americas other than the USA, perhaps Brazil someday if they become less leftist. The landing barge method is already created and understood. It is not certain that it will be implemented for Starship any time soon. IF it is then the barges will have to be enormous.
What if there is a launch location where Oxygen can be pulled for the atmosphere, but Methane is relatively expensive to obtain. But upgraded jet fuel would be fairly easy to have?
What if some orbital manufacturing processes could be done with a sub-orbital method? If so then America(s), might have a complementary partner in Indonesia/Oceana, where a Falcon 9 stack is launched sub-orbital. The Starfall's come down in the other partnership. The Falcon 9 1st stage is recovered to soil or barges at sea.
What about the 2nd Stage? Well after it ejected the Starfall device or devices, it could proceed to go to full orbit and be recovered to the Junk Market and not be burned in the attoampere. So, this is no longer the throwing away of useful hardware.
Even if Starship gets the cost of mass to orbit down to less than $200.00/kg, the thing has value. Possible Values are in its utility, and it's mass. If Starship can refill Starship, then I expect that it can refill Star-Falcon and the engines only having been used a few times may not be so coked up that they cannot be reused another time(s). After a secondary usage the ships then might end up in a scrapyard to be recycled in orbit. That, I believe would provide at the very least special alloys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_9
What would you get in orbit?
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Composition of the Falcon 9 Second Stage
The Falcon 9 second stage is a self-contained upper stage designed to deliver the payload to its target orbit after the first stage separates. It is made primarily of aluminum-lithium alloy for its tanks and structural components, consistent with the first stage’s design for lightweight strength and reusability SpaceX+1.
Key materials and structure
Aluminum-lithium alloy tanks: These hold the RP-1 (rocket-grade kerosene) and liquid oxygen (LOX) propellants, chosen for their high energy density and compatibility with the Merlin Vacuum engine SpaceX.Merlin Vacuum engine: A single Merlin 1D+ Vacuum engine powers the stage, optimized for near-vacuum conditions. It uses the same RP-1/LOX propellants as the first stage but operates at higher efficiency in space Wikipedia+1.
Composite interstage: The interstage connects the first and second stages, housing pneumatic pushers for separation and grid fins for reentry control SpaceX+1.
Grid fins: Four hypersonic grid fins at the base of the interstage help orient the rocket during reentry by shifting the center of pressure SpaceX.
Function and design
The second stage is expendable (not reused) but is designed for multiple burns to place payloads into different orbits. It ignites a few seconds after stage separation and can restart several times to perform complex mission profiles SpaceX.In summary: The Falcon 9 second stage is built from aluminum-lithium alloy tanks and composite structures, powered by a Merlin Vacuum engine burning RP-1 and LOX, with grid fins for control and an interstage for separation SpaceX+1.
What is the dry mass of a falcon 9 2nd stage?
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The dry mass of the Falcon 9 second stage is approximately 4,000 kg (8,800 lbs).
The Falcon 9 second stage is designed to deliver payloads into orbit after separation from the first stage. Its dry mass of around 4,000 kg represents the weight of the stage without any propellant, including the structure, avionics, and systems necessary for operation in space
chimniii.com
chimniii.com
. This relatively low mass is crucial for maximizing payload capacity, allowing the stage to deliver up to 8,300 kg to a geostationary transfer orbit (GTO) using its single Merlin Vacuum engine
chimniii.com
chimniii.com
+1
.Engine and Propulsion
The second stage is powered by a single Merlin Vacuum engine, optimized for operation in the vacuum of space. This engine produces approximately 981 kN of thrust and uses RP-1 (rocket-grade kerosene) and liquid oxygen (LOX) as propellants
wevolver.com
wevolver.com
. The stage is capable of multiple engine burns, enabling precise orbital insertions and deployment of multiple payloads.Structural and Operational Features
The second stage uses aluminum-lithium alloy tanks to minimize weight while maintaining structural integrity
wevolver.com
wevolver.com
. It also includes a cold nitrogen gas attitude control system (ACS) for orientation and roll control in space. The interstage connects the first and second stages and allows for clean separation during flight
wevolver.com
wevolver.com
. The combination of low dry mass, efficient engine design, and advanced control systems makes the Falcon 9 second stage highly effective for a wide range of orbital missions.
In summary, the 4,000 kg dry mass is a key factor in the Falcon 9’s performance, balancing structural strength with payload efficiency and enabling SpaceX to conduct versatile and cost-effective launches
I might also argue that if you brought fresh Merlin engines to orbit with Starship, you might refit a Starfalcon and not just refill it.
If the single engine were made into an easy change out, then you would use an engine a number of times and then scrap it. As for the rest of the Starfalcon, you might have a very large number of reuses.
The Fuel of a Starfalcon is RP-1, (Improved Jet Fuel), so boiloff may not be much of a problem. Quote storable in a depot in orbit, I think. It even gets too cold and gels up if not treated properly.
Two useful substances for radiation shielding could be RP-1 and Water. If you bring water to orbit, then you bring Oxygen and Hydrogen. While Hydrogen is wanted for some types of nuclear rockets, it might be nice to have for some high temperature electric thrusters. Water in tanks, is relatively passive relative to Hydro-Lox, if things go boom on launch it might actually dampen the damage rather than to contribute to it.
If you have water depots, then you can also grow food in them, recycling human waste products.
Water itself can also be used in thermal thrusters.
While Starship is a gem, it is made of Stainless Steel. It will always be heavier than a transit ship you might make out of Starfalcons.
Starfalcons one or more could be made into Lunar Transit devices and even landers.
In the background of this you also could have Nuclear-Electric high efficiency cargo carriers. If they carry RP-1 Tanks and Water Tanks, now you can even house humans in such vehicles and transit the Van Allen Belts slowly without lethal radiation effects. But you don't have to. But if you have depots of RP-1 and Water that you push to Lunar Proximity, now you have a base where you can generate and use RP-1 and Oxygen and Hydrogen for accessing the Moon.
Another trick of value here is that if you did go to the trouble of creating a tank of Liquid Hydrogen, you might fly it down to the Moon and rapidly react it with prior prepared Oxygen, creating water in a location of the Moon that might find it beneficial to intentions.
Coffee...........
The problem with transiting Cryogenic fluids to a location proximate to the Moon is you need sunshades and active cooling. That adds cost and dry mass. At a proximate location you are no longer applying thrust to dry mass that protects Cryogenic Fluids, so you more sensibly may use it to convert the basic stock of RP-1 and Water into things you want which by the way could include Methane.
So actually, you could make Methane from RP-1 and Water, but you also could have depots with Carbon in them, which also might be radiation shielding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point
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The Earth-Moon L1 point is located about 320,000 km from Earth, approximately 85% of the distance to the Moon, and serves as a unique location for space missions due to its gravitational balance.
Location and Characteristics
Distance: The Earth-Moon L1 point is situated roughly 320,000 kilometers from Earth, which is about 85% of the distance to the Moon (approximately 380,000 km)
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Gravitational Balance: At L1, the gravitational forces of the Earth and the Moon, along with the centrifugal force acting on an object at that point, are in equilibrium. This allows a spacecraft to maintain a stable position relative to both bodies, although it is considered an unstable point, meaning that some propulsion is required to keep a spacecraft at L1
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Applications
Space Missions: The L1 point is of interest for various space missions, particularly those aimed at lunar exploration. It can serve as a staging point for missions traveling to the Moon or as a location for satellites that monitor the Earth and Moon
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Transfer Orbits: Recent studies have explored using the L1 point for efficient transfer orbits between Earth and the Moon, which could optimize fuel consumption for lunar missions
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Conclusion
The Earth-Moon L1 Lagrange point is a significant location for future lunar exploration and satellite operations, providing a unique gravitational environment that can facilitate various space missions. Its position makes it a strategic point for monitoring and studying both the Earth and the Moon.
So now, if you have a refinery at L1, you could be continuously cooking LOX from Water, and using the Hydrogen for various purposes, inducing thrust for station keeping. You might have RP-1 depots on hand and be able to refill Starfalcon based devices periodically as LOX buildup occurred.
You could have tanks of RP-1, Water, and Carbon on hand to give you radiation shielding, otherwise if you ran out you might consider evacuation of human to elsewhere.
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And we also may have the option of "Expendable-Not-Really" for a form of stripped-down Starship. It would launch to sub-orbit and deploy Starfalls. Then it would proceed to full orbit. Like Starfalcon it might be refilled and proceed to locate elsewhere.
Being giant Stainless-Steel cans they should have many uses.
Referencing post #40 and #41: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 61#p239661
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Here is a partial attempt at a water tank based radiator:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_cell
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I think I want to make a diagram of a simplified version of the radiator I am suggesting for space data centers.
After a it might have been used as a water tank to bring some water to a location its further purpose is to be a radiator.
In zero g, I expect capillary action to still work. It might work very well.
Such tanks might have compartments of water, RP-1, and Carbon, and might be self propelled.
They could be arrayed in such a way as to provide radiation protection for a Starship, at L1 or Geosynchronous, and perhaps to provide shade to reduce boiloff and they might be used as radiators as well.
Well, that is all the fun I want for this morning.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (Today 09:48:28)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
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