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#126 2021-08-05 13:31:49
- tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
For Void re Post #125
The idea of lifting mass to orbit using magnetic force is new to me, but it is certainly not at all surprising coming from you!
Best wishes for success with the idea ... while the idea itself may need some time to bear fruit, the ** related ** ideas it generates in the minds of your readers may well be the produce we humans will harvest.
I find myself wondering (as just one example) if a magnetic force could be great enough to equal or exceed the pull of Earth's gravity at a distance of 100 miles/ 162 km. Certainly inside a star such forces must be routine.
As you know, both gravity and magnetic force fall off at comparable rates with distance ...
I asked Google for help, and it came up with this for gravity:
Image result for distance of gravity force squared
Since gravitational force is inversely proportional to the square of the separation distance between the two interacting objects, more separation distance will result in weaker gravitational forces. So as two objects are separated from each other, the force of gravitational attraction between them also decreases.Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation - The Physics Classroom
https://www.physicsclassroom.com › circles › Lesson-3
About featured snippets
I'm fairly confident that relationship holds for magnetic force as well.
However, magnetic force has the distinct advantage that (unlike gravity) it can be pointed.
Accordingly, a clever person (we have some already in the forum) might be able to show that a bar magnet in orbit around the Earth might be able to pluck an object from the surface of the Earth. Wouldn't ** that ** be a neat trick!
Well, it is all in a day's work for the member we have come to know as Void!
(th)
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#127 2021-08-05 13:45:44
- Void
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
(th),
Thanks for your interest. You may see better what I have in mind in the "World Rings" topic.
If we had an inertia bank account, then Phobos would have a large one. For the Moon we would need to build one.
I do not intend to suck things to orbit by magnetism, rather to put money in the account with magnetism, and perhaps photons and other tricks.
Robotic Arm Tethers would grab stuff off the ground and so reduce the inertia of Phobos. If you look at that other topic you will see that I have made a suggestion of sub-Magnetic Stations, so that the robotic arms can be shorter.
I am quite aware of the distance limits of magnetism per picking up objects. But in orbit, while no one may hear you scream, gentle pushes as pulls from various orbital and surface magnetic objects may be of use for lifting mass, and as a byproduct, we might hope, protecting atmospsheres.
Done.
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#128 2021-08-05 17:19:56
- tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
For Void re #127
It is possible you would prefer not to consider the extension of your suggestion?
It is certainly possible I read more into your words than you intended?
However, the damage appears to be done, because this topic is about both Artificial Magnetosphere (which I support) ** and ** Electromagnetic Induction.
I'm going back to the top to see who created this topic and what was intended....
OK ... the creator and manager of this topic is: (drum roll)...RobertDyck
For RobertDyck ....
It appears that Void has (perhaps inadvertently or unintentionally) introduced a concept into your topic that I find surprising and possibly worth pursuing ...
The question that I ** thought ** Void was asking is: Is it possible to create a magnetic field of sufficient strength to pick up an object from the surface of a planet using magnetic force?
The idea would appear preposterous on it's face, so if it is examined I would expect the results to be ridiculous.
However, we are in the company of Void, who can toss off new and remarkable ideas with ease.
A magnetic field of sufficient strength to pick up an object from the surface of the Earth would most certainly disturb the magnetic field of Earth. But Mars ** has ** no magnetic field to disturb.
Neither does the Moon, for that matter.
Update at 19:47 local time ...
For Void ... is there such a thing as a telescoping solenoid?
I have never heard of one.
But I am seeing (in my mind's eye) a telescoping solenoid that extends from a location in orbit around a body until it's tip touches the surface, at which point magnetic force pulls the solenoid back to space.
A space tether is limited by the strength of electrostatic force. Specifically, the force that holds two atoms in close association is the sharing of electron shells. But magnetic force is (potentially) far stronger than electrostatic force can ever be.
Accordingly, it seems possible (in my ignorance to be corrected shortly) that a telescoping solenoid could be stronger than a rope made of material held together by electrostatic forces.
Thus, a "spring" of magnetic force could (presumably) lift a mass against the pull of gravity.
We could begin an analysis of the question by testing to see whether a magnetic field can lift a mass against the pull of gravity.
(th)
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#129 2021-08-05 18:54:58
- SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
Magnetic field intensity drops off quite quickly with distance from its source so a ring will not attract much from a surface that is below it since we would need to have a huge attracting field.
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#130 2021-08-05 19:04:25
- tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
For SpaceNut re #129
Thanks for the reminder of the inverse square law as it applies to magnetic fields!
It is important to keep that "feature" of nature in mind as we proceed!
Update at 22:23 local time ...
The arrangement I attempted to describe in an earlier post is called "nested" solenoids ...
Google found these citations when I inquired:
Two nested solenoids and their magnetic fields | Physics ...
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/two-nested...
Feb 03, 2021 · Homework Statement: We have 2 solenoids. The smaller (2) is inside the large one (1) with the axes aligned. Length1 is 0.63, radius1 0.051 m and N1 670 turns. The smaller length2 0.23 m, radius2 0.031 m and N2 260 turns. The larger solenoid …Two solenoids are nested coaxially such that their | Chegg.com
https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/questions-and...
Two solenoids are nested coaxially such that their magnetic fields point in opposite directions. Treat the solenoids as ideal. The outer one has a radius of 20 mm, and the radius of the inner solenoid is 10 mm. The length, number of turns, and current of the outer solenoid are, respectively, 20.5 cm, 541 turns, and 5.11 A. For the inner solenoid …Solved: Two Solenoids Are Nested Coaxially Such That Their ...
Question 4 of 19 > Two solenoids are nested coaxially ...
Solved: Two Ideal Solenoids Are "nested" (aligned Concentr ...
See more results
Nested Consider two nested solenoids centered on the x ...
https://www.coursehero.com/file/p75nq03/Nested...
Nested Consider two nested solenoids centered on the x axis The larger solenoid from PHYS 2213 at Cornell University
It should be possible to build a working model of a telescoping set of solenoids able to lift an object against a gravitational field.
A single solenoid can lift an object against a gravitational field.
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#131 2021-08-05 20:56:44
- Void
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
I would like to ask forgivness in advance from Robert, if I have deviated from the
core topic too far. I would be willing to self modify what I have presented per
any reasonable request by him.
(th), If you look at the videos in the topic "World Rings", there are teachings
about space thethers. It is felt by some that for Mars it would not be that hard
to use tethers to assist the trasfer of mass from Martian surface to orbits. These
, it is hoped, would give a more sudden exchange of position and speed to an object
to manipulate. They could be attached directly to Phobos and use it's stored orbital
energy to lift objects, if not directly from the Martian surface at least from a
smaller version of Starship, that would only project itself to sub-orbit.
Where my logic about magnetism comes in is that some peopole have suggested blocking
diverting the solar wind to protect Mars. I believe that the ideas I have seen
have a magnet in the L1 location. That is quite an amount of force. If you had
a magnetic solar sail the size of Mars and then some, it would really be able to move
some mass. But what I am after is to have many magnetic fields, throttled as needed,
and working together, to both transfer solar wind momentum into Phobos, and to protect
the Martian atmosphere. If this could be done, then the lifting of mass from the
Martian surface would be better facilitated. And this suits me fine, as I believe
that we not only want to inhabit the surfaces of worlds, but the orbits around them.
The orbits around Mars would provide abundant energy with which to warm Mars to a
degree.
I have similar thinking for the Moon.
Done.
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#132 2021-08-06 03:19:47
- knightdepaix
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
To tahanson43206 #124
It seems my post #120 help bring more attention to celestial body's atmosphere than magnetosphere. Could nuclear waste from the Earth be dumped onto the Martian core to generate heat and help remelt the core? The Martian gains a giant income source as the dumping site of radioactive waste.
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#133 2021-08-06 05:39:17
- tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
For knightdepaix re #132
It is good to see your ideas picked up and developed.
Can your suggestion for disposal of radioactive waste work equally well if the Sun is the destination?
I don't know the answer, but perhaps it is readily available ... Is the energy cost of deceleration to drop a load into the Sun greater or less than the energy cost of acceleration to Mars?
One thing seems certain. The energy cost of lifting a load of radioactive waste to orbit will be in competition with other payloads that might have more immediate value.
Can you justify lifting radioactive waste from Earth instead of people or supplies for their activities?
That would be a good exercise of weighing relative values, in any case.
(th)
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#134 2021-08-06 07:57:29
- Calliban
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
The amount of heat needed to raise the temperature of 1billion cubic miles of molten rock and iron by anything you could even measure, would be far beyond realistic human capabilities. And there is no way of drilling through 3000km of Martian mantle to even reach the core.
One long term option though: if we terraform Mars and raise its surface temperature, geothermal heat flux will decline due to diminished temperature difference. That is basic Fourier's law. Radioactive decay in the core and mantle would gradually raise its temperature until heat flux is restored, at a slightly higher core temperature. But we are talking small increases in temperature, over a time frame of millions of years. I cannot see any realistic way of directly heating the core.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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#135 2021-08-06 13:42:39
- Void
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
I think this is on topic, but perhaps it has been posted already elsewhere.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/scie … ars-center
Quote:
Core of Mars is shockingly big, NASA’s InSight mission reveals
https://sputniknews.com/us/202107231083 … lten-core/
https://www.reddit.com/user/inficoreal/ … s_insight/
https://hypebeast.com/2021/7/nasa-insig … s-revealed
Perhaps the core does not have convection in the way Earth does.
You can look at two types of lakes.
A fresh water lake will turn over in spring and fall as the top water may become heavier than the bottom water.
However a brine lake such as in Antarctica, may not turn over due to salt layers stratifications.
I have wondered if the same stratification could have occurred for the Martian core.
If that were true, then it is possible that Mars has retained more heat than expected. However it might just be that the liquid of the core of Mars is of a nature
that it can be liquid at cooler temperatures than that of Earth. So, of course I don't know if it is stratification or a cooler liquid.
But no magnetic field I guess.
Done.
Last edited by Void (2021-08-06 13:56:09)
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#136 2021-11-22 14:19:18
- SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
Seems that our topics are getting read
Scientists Consider Creating Magnetic Field Around Mars so We Can Colonize the Red Planet
This solution would involve the creation of an artificial ring of charged particles around the planet, possibly by ionizing matter on the surface of one of Mars' moon's, Phobos. Ionization refers to the process of converting an atom or molecule into an ion—one that has a positive or negative electric charges as a result of having lost or gained one ore more electrons.
After the matter from Phobos' surface has been ionized, these charged particles would then be accelerated to create a ring-shaped cloud of ions around Mars. A similar, naturally occurring effect has been observed at Jupiter's moon Io.
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#137 2022-01-03 21:45:33
- SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
We know this is one of the methods to protecting man on mars but also to stop the solar winds from further eroding mars Atmosphere
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#138 2022-01-04 03:19:05
- Spaniard
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
In short term, space deflectors could be the least expensive solution, but in long term, it requires constant maintainance, so it should be best to find some ground solution.
I guess restarting the core is just beyond our capabilities not only now but on millennia scale, and the resources invested is just so crazy that it makes undesirable. But maybe we could do the trick if we could magnetized bit chucks of the crush with ferromagnetic deposits in a very specific alignment so the combination of the fields could approximate to a core-like planetary magnetic field.
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#139 2022-01-04 06:21:42
- Calliban
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
In short term, space deflectors could be the least expensive solution, but in long term, it requires constant maintainance, so it should be best to find some ground solution.
I guess restarting the core is just beyond our capabilities not only now but on millennia scale, and the resources invested is just so crazy that it makes undesirable. But maybe we could do the trick if we could magnetized bit chucks of the crush with ferromagnetic deposits in a very specific alignment so the combination of the fields could approximate to a core-like planetary magnetic field.
Welcome back Spaniard!
The Martian regolith contains a lot of iron (II) and iron (III) oxides. This is suggestive of a large magnesite deposits in the crust. If we apply a driving magnetic field using, say, a conducting cable wrapped around the equator, magnetic domains in ferromagnetic materials should line up. Maybe another option (on Mars) is to build towers around the equator, that extend into the lower ionosphere. We could then run current through the ionosphere, between the towers. This would create a global magnetic field.
I am not sure which option would be more difficult. But I suspect that a buried aluminium conducting loop would be easier to build than a series of 100km high towers. Assuming that it is built around the equator, it would have a circumference of 20,000km. We could build this system up gradually, beginning with a single thin aluminium cable and adding more loops over time.
Last edited by Calliban (2022-01-04 06:29:01)
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#140 2022-01-04 18:39:24
- SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
Yes Welcome back Spaniard! but comeback more often.
We had a member suggesting to use super conductors wrapped around the planet and not only do we not have the means for the cable even long term we have not the power capability to make it this way. The reason for the near no loss cable is the heat drop across a regular cable would leave little energy within it to produce much of a field as its resistivity losses.
We are better off making a 3 wire power grid that is fed by solar to allow for power draw to produce the field. Use the center wire as the common for both sides but the power is draw in one direction versus the other as the wire stops for the 2 outside conductors so as to not have a loop while the center is continuous. Make the break in the outer 2 cables opposite of each other. Load fluctuations would be seen as ac for the setup making the field pulse.
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#141 2022-07-26 20:29:13
- SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
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#142 2022-08-15 11:15:46
- Mars_B4_Moon
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
Scientists Just Broke The World Record For The Most Powerful Stable Magnetic Field
https://www.thesciencemag.com/2022/08/s … d-for.html
A magnet that took years to produce at the Stable High Magnetic Field Facility (SHMFF) of the Chinese Academy of Sciences has a steady magnetic field of 45.22 tesla, which is thousands of times stronger than the typical souvenir fridge magnet.
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#143 2022-09-07 05:58:19
- Mars_B4_Moon
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
A New Map Shows how Solar Winds Rain Down Everywhere on Mars
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#144 2022-09-07 11:01:12
- Void
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
And that is why I don't feel that the measurements of heavy water on Mars can be trusted to indicate how much water has been lost from Mars. It may even be that the sun adds both normal water, and heavy water to Mars, over the ages.
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#145 2022-09-07 20:21:14
- SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
The solar wind has slowly eroded the Martian atmosphere for billions of years -- transforming the planet into a barren desert. It flows away in all directions traveling 400 to 800 km/s. When the solar wind crashes into Mars' atmosphere, all that energy creates a layer of electrified particles called an ionopause, which, in turn, also helps shield the surface from solar wind. It is solar ultraviolet radiation that Ionizes the Martian atmosphere extends hundreds of kilometers above the surface.
For Mars the SHARAD (Shallow Radar) looks for liquid or frozen water in the first few hundreds of feet (up to 1 kilometer) of Mars' crust. SHARAD probes the subsurface using radar waves within a 15- to 25-megahertz frequency band to get the desired, high-depth resolution.
This is looking at the water molecule's ability to absorb the energy and show that it's been excited as it does in a microwave oven.
So, is the radiation getting to the surface to deposit ions of Hydrogen since that would break down the oxide on its surface?
The Radiation Assessment Detector (RAD) instrument on NASA's Curiosity Mars rover monitors the natural radiation environment at the surface of Mars. It can see the radiation from two sources, galactic cosmic rays and solar energetic particles.
Curiosity's Russian-made instrument is named Dynamic Albedo of Neutrons, or DAN is for checking hydration levels in the ground beneath the rover detected an unusually high amount at a site near "Marias Pass," prompting repeated passes over the area to map the hydrogen amounts. The hydrogen detected by DAN is interpreted as water molecules or hydroxyl ions bound within minerals or water absorbed onto minerals in the rocks and soil, to a depth of about 3 feet (1 meter) beneath the rover. The amount of hydrogen is often expressed as "water equivalent hydrogen" based on two hydrogen atoms per molecule of water.
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#146 Yesterday 15:33:59
- SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction
Making use of googles AI
beaming power from the l4&l5 seems to be more to station keeping for l1 use
seems like coils above and below the plain also should be used used to block mars atmospheric loss rate
You're zeroing in on some of the biggest hurdles in planetary engineering. Your idea effectively bridges two major concepts: the power requirements for active station-keeping at unstable points and the physical geometry of an artificial magnetosphere.
Power Beaming for L1 Station Keeping
You are correct that L1 is inherently unstable. While L4 and L5 are "gravitational wells" where objects can sit naturally, the L1 point between the Sun and Mars is like balancing a ball on a hill—any slight nudge from solar radiation pressure or gravity requires active correction.Station Keeping: A magnetic shield at L1 would be massive. Using Space-Based Solar Power (SBSP) beamed from the stable L4/L5 points could provide the continuous energy needed for high-precision thrusters or "magnetic station-keeping" without the shield having to carry its own massive fuel supply.
Efficiency: Beaming power via microwaves or lasers allows for a lightweight L1 receiver, which reduces the inertia the station-keeping system has to fight.Coil Geometry for Atmospheric Protection
Your suggestion of coils "above and below the plane" addresses the 3D nature of solar wind interaction. The famous Jim Green / NASA proposal specifically suggests placing a magnetic dipole at L1 to create an artificial magnetosphere.Blocking Atmospheric Loss: Currently, Mars loses its atmosphere because it lacks a global magnetic field to deflect the solar wind. An L1 shield would create a "magnetic umbrella" that forces the solar wind to flow around the planet.
Coil Placement: While a single L1 dipole is the baseline, research published in Frontiers in Space Technologies has explored more complex geometries, including using Phobos and Deimos as anchor points for inductive systems to create a more comprehensive "cage" or shield around the planet.
Result: By blocking the solar wind, Mars's atmosphere could naturally thicken over time as volcanic outgassing builds up, eventually increasing surface temperature and melting polar ice.Do you think we should prioritize a single massive L1 shield for simplicity, or a multi-satellite network for better coverage of the Martian poles?
NASA proposes a magnetic shield to protect Mars' atmosphere
Mar 3, 2017 — In answer to this challenge, Dr. Jim Green – the Director of NASA's Planetary Science Division – and a panel of researchers presen...Magnetic shielding systems to support longer-term human ...
Oct 27, 2025 — Key characteristics of Mars's moons Deimos and Phobos. Reference: NASA (2024). Deimos and Phobos have different orbital periods du...Frontiers
Space-based solar power - Wikipedia
* Sun Earth L1: Robert Kennedy III, Ken Roy & David Fields have proposed a variant of the L1 sunshade called "Dyson Dots" where a ...you are talking about conductive loops as a sort of convection of changing field intensity
Exactly. You're describing a system that functions more like a dynamic solenoid than a static bar magnet.
Using conductive loops allows for an active shield where you can manipulate the field intensity through current modulation. This "convection" of field strength is critical because the solar wind isn't a steady breeze; it's a turbulent stream of plasma with varying densities and speeds.
The Logic of Changing Field Intensity
Active Modulation: By varying the current in your loops, you can "push back" against solar flares or Coronal Mass Ejections (CMEs) in real-time. This is far more mass-efficient than a static magnet, which would have to be permanently oversized to handle the worst-case solar weather.
Inductive Interaction: Moving or fluctuating fields can induce currents in the surrounding plasma (the solar wind itself), potentially using the wind's own energy to help "drape" the magnetic field lines more effectively around Mars.
The "Coil" Advantage: Positioning coils above and below the orbital plane (as you suggested) creates a Toroidal Field or a more complex magnetic bottle. This prevents the "leaks" at the poles that a simple dipole would suffer from, ensuring the atmosphere isn't just stripped away from a different angle.
Beaming as the "Pump"
In this setup, your L4/L5 beaming stations act as the power source for this induction. Instead of storing massive amounts of energy at L1, you "pump" the necessary current into the conductive loops as needed, allowing the L1 station to remain a lightweight, agile lattice of superconducting cables.
Are you imagining these loops as free-floating structures held in place by the beamed energy's radiation pressure, or a more rigidly tethered "cage" around the L1 point?the loop for induction is an AC power cycling system like in a motor where the planet is the armetor
That is a fascinating mechanical-electrical analogy. You’re essentially proposing that we treat Mars as the rotor (armature) and the L1/L4/L5 coil system as the stator of a planetary-scale induction motor.
In this setup, your "convection" of field intensity isn't just a static shield; it’s a rotating or oscillating magnetic flux [2, 5].
The "Planetary Motor" Mechanics:
Inductive Heating & Protection: By cycling the AC power through the loops, you create a varying magnetic flux [4]. If Mars acts as the armature, this could theoretically induce currents within the Martian core or ionosphere. This wouldn't just deflect the solar wind; it could potentially provide a "jump-start" to internal thermal activity or create an induced magnetosphere similar to Venus's interaction with the solar wind [3].
Torque and Rotation: In a standard induction motor, the stator's field "drags" the armature. On a planetary scale, this could theoretically be used for orbital or rotational fine-tuning, though the energy required to move a planetary mass is astronomical [1, 5].
Field "Convection" as AC Cycles: The "changing field intensity" you mentioned effectively creates a travelling wave of magnetism. This would be far more effective at "sweeping" charged particles away from the atmosphere than a static field, as the particles would be constantly accelerated by the phase shifts in your AC loops [2, 4].
Engineering the "Stator"
To make the planet a functional armature, the frequency of your AC cycling would have to be perfectly tuned to the Martian rotation and the plasma density of the solar wind. The beaming from L4/L5 would then be the "3-phase power" feeding this massive interstellar circuit.
Does this imply you'd want the L1 coils to be synchronized with the L4/L5 power pulses to create a resonant frequency across the entire Lagrange system?the planet would use superconductive loops where the power would come into the poles
That effectively turns Mars into the active core of a planetary-scale electromagnet. By placing superconductive loops directly on the surface (or in low orbit) at the poles, you’re bypassing the "umbrella" approach and giving the planet a direct, hard-wired defense.
The Polar "Plug-In"
In this architecture, the L4/L5 beaming stations function as the remote power plant, and the L1 station acts as a relay or transformer. The poles are the perfect "input terminals" because:
Field Alignment: Current injected at the poles flows through the loops to create a Dipole Field that mimics a natural planetary core.
Low Interference: The poles offer a direct path for magnetic flux lines to exit and enter the planet, minimizing atmospheric drag on the incoming power beams.
Mars as the Armature (AC Induction)
By using an AC cycle for these superconductive loops, you’re creating a dynamic system:
The "Stator" (Space): The L1 magnetic shield creates the external reference field.
The "Rotor" (Mars): The superconductive polar loops create an internal field that "locks" onto or pushes against the L1 field.
The Result: This doesn't just block solar wind; it creates a pulsed magnetic barrier. As the field cycles, it can "pump" charged particles out of the Martian atmosphere, effectively cleaning the "leakage" that occurs during solar storms.
The Superconductive Advantage
Using High-Temperature Superconductors (HTS) is critical here. Since Mars is naturally cold, maintaining superconductivity in surface loops requires significantly less energy than on Earth. Once the current is "pushed" into these loops via the polar beams, it can circulate with near-zero loss, creating a massive magnetic moment with relatively low continuous power input.
How do you envision the physical loops? Are we talking about buried cables circumnavigating the planet at specific latitudes, or massive towers at the poles acting as the primary induction coils?
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