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#1 Yesterday 11:28:26
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,297
Utilizing Ice Caves
Subject to moderator approval, we might explore this.
For Mars and other worlds, such as Ceres, the process of extracting ices can create a useful cave. Recent discovery indicates to me that these may be suitable to utilities desirable.
As a first example you might create a garage from a cave you created by extracting ice perhaps for its water. Such ice caves will have radiation protection.
So, a garage might be in the Mid Latitudes perhaps in a slab of ice that is perhaps >110 feet thick.
This is an oldie but perhaps a goodie: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
Quote:
"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.
In Antarctica, Penguins make nests from stones, I believe.
https://iere.org/why-do-penguins-make-n … -of-rocks/
Quote:
Penguins make nests of rocks primarily to protect their eggs from flooding, provide insulation, and demarcate their territory. They gather rocks from barren, rocky landscapes, especially in harsh environments like Antarctica. The rocks help absorb heat and prevent eggs from becoming waterlogged, while also serving as a buffer against extreme temperature fluctuations. Additionally, rock nests help define individual territories within breeding colonies, reducing conflicts among penguins.
iere.org
So, this could be a basic bulk option that Mars can offer. Ice with dirt on top of it and rock at its base: 
So, having done this, you can have the penguins advantage and that of a burrowing animal to some extent. You also can consume the water that was extracted from the ice.
But as depicted this is going to be unstable as per concerns about sublimation, and buildup of heat.
The tunnel entrance can be polar facing as a start.
Sublimation is not the only concern; there could be tunnel sagging and collapse. The gravity on Mars is .38 that of Earth but we need to address all the concerns, with economy.
Thanks Calliban for post #2. I appreciate your attention. I will continue with post #3.
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 12:11:32)
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#2 Yesterday 11:53:52
- Calliban
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- From: Northern England, UK
- Registered: 2019-08-18
- Posts: 4,305
Re: Utilizing Ice Caves
I think that this is a good idea and there are plenty of locations where it will be applicable. Given that ice melts at 0°C, tunnelling can be carried out by melting through the ice. A tunnelling machine could carry a small light water reactor, with water pumped through a steel melting cone at the front of the vehicle. Tunnels could be pressurised with oxygen produced by electrolysis.
In the 2030s, the LUCY probe should give us our first look at a Jupiter Trojan asteroid. These appear to be centaurs that originated in the Kuiper Belt and are therefore icy. Surface gravity on even the largest of these bodies is <0.01g. So it should be possible to build tunnels of enormous size. Entire towns could be built under tents within the tunnels.
Last edited by Calliban (Yesterday 11:57:36)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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#3 Yesterday 12:13:54
- Void
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- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,297
Re: Utilizing Ice Caves
I have added a poly film tunnel to help control sublimation and to help make distinction between the temperature control of the ice above and the dirt/rock floor below. 
Even on Mars, by natural convection, some night cooling will occur as like an ice cave on Earth. But we intend the poly tent to limit the sublimation of the tunnel ice. But we might like the regolith floor to dry out some. Where desired we could put a vapor barrier down and then put the sifted sort of regolith we desire on top of that, and it could be dry.
If the ice in places does sublimate away, we can squirt some low temperature water steam at it to refill the developing cavities.
I suspect that we could make supports out of Carbon or Steel, or from arches of created stone. Created by the Urea method.
I suggest that a form of precision fermentation or biological cellular process could make the materials such as Urine and/or cells.
Perhaps a culture of cancer cells growing forever fed with nutrients. Precision fermentation making urea?
https://www.cnet.com/science/mars-explo … and-urine/
Quote:
Mars explorers might make concrete-like materials from their own blood and urine
Gross. Blood, sweat, tears, urine and Martian dust could be a magic formula for building on the red planet.
If you had a form, you could put regolith mixed with these biological materials and let the microbes convert it into "Stone Arches".
I have added a artificial urea stone arch as support for the ice, and a heated pressurized habitat.
To heat your habitat you might use a heat pump, perhaps pulling heat out of the Martian air. As for the air in the poly enclosure in the tunnel you might regulate it. A tent is added over the entrance to better regulate the air exchange. Methods to regulate the temperature to be suitable to pull heat from the air in the tunnel to heat the habitat seem a possible option. Finding a sweet spot that is assistive to that, and makes the structure stable as per ice sag.
Energy is likely to be from various sources including nuclear fission, local solar, orbital solar beaming, and perhaps nuclear fusion.
It turns out that Carbon can make excellent power conductors.
Suggested references:
"Index» Life support systems» Carbon is the New Metal--- Also biological materials source."
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11299
We may not even need green plants at all, with precision fermentation, cellular farming, and Mushrooms.
"Index» Life support systems» New Food Sources. Precision Fermentation, Cellular, Synthetic"
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11196
Food, again.
"Index» Life support systems» Bogs and Bog, Floating Island Technology, and Roller Solar."
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11288
Unusual solar methods, and also food type methods.
"Index» Life support systems» Tunnel Arch Build Method"
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11188
A way to make multi-block arches.
And we need to pay attention to the fact tha this ice slab is said to be as big as Texas and California.
That means that you have ages of time to expand this system. Making more tunnels gives you more water and more shelter.
And there are other ice bodies similar methods might be applied to.
I said that you don't need greenhouses, not that you could not have greenhouses as well.
Ending Pending 
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 13:07:20)
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#4 Yesterday 19:55:55
- Void
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- Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Utilizing Ice Caves
Continuing with this, I think adaptation to mid latitude ice slabs, relics on the equator, and even polar ice caps may be a possibility.
So, I think what is under them in general will be 1) lava flows, 2) uncemented regolith, and 3) cemented regolith, perhaps resembling sandstone.
1) So, in the case of Lava Flows, there might be Lava Tubes partially or totally collapsed. Any of such situations may have special value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_lava_tube
Image Quote: 
Image Quote: 
Such Lave tubes of collapse trenches or skylights, covered by a thick layer of it could be of some unusual value. It might be possible to pressurize them due to the weight of ice above them. In the case of a skylight or collapsed tube you perhaps could fill it with building made of advanced building materials.
2) In the case of uncemented soil under the ice you could do standard underground methods with the ice being protective above.
3) in the case of cemented soil, then you might be dealing with sandstone or mudstone. It is unknown if their are cemented rock types under the ice slabs of Mars. It does seem reasonable that volcanic ash might also be cemented together as well. But the sandstone identified is where the winds have eroded down to it, such as in Gale Crater, Mount Sharp, I believe. But sandstone under ice slabs might be very useful to carve habitats and workshops into, if such exists.
It may be possible to increase the atmospheric pressure of Mars, and warm the planet up a bit, but I suggest that it might not be wise to try to melt these giant ice slabs, if it can be avoided. I see them as a useful resource.
I think it would be very hard to warm Mars to resemble Earth completely. It is said that it would take 1 bar of CO2, or 2 bars of Earth Atmosphere to warm Mars that much.
That is unreachable by our current standards of ability. Even if you gave Mars a 1/3 bar atmosphere of almost pure Oxygen, it would be a very cold planet.
At least until humans and their robots can achieve magic like powers, it would be unwise to ignore the blessing that ice slabs and bodies could be on Mars.
But eventually I do believe that transparent pressurized domes will be possible. Those could be placed where there is no ice slab or body.
But I think that it will be a long time before they are made really prevalent. on Mars. But it could come eventually.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 20:32:56)
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