New Mars Forums
You are not logged in.
- Topics: Active | Unanswered
Announcement
#401 2024-08-27 10:32:03
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
I ran into a few articles today:
Not Thermal Battery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU16iUYKPr4
Quote:
Texas Oil Wells Hold a Renewable Energy Solution | American Innovators
Thermal Battery:
https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/scienti … y-storage/
Quote:
Researchers Successfully Turn Abandoned Oil Well into Giant Geothermal Battery
Thermal Battery:
https://e360.yale.edu/features/kern-cou … gy-storage
Quote:
Can a California Oilfield Be Retrofitted to Store Solar Energy?
The transition to renewables requires batteries that can store energy for long periods of time. To meet that demand, engineers in California’s Kern County are aiming to revamp depleted oil wells to hold concentrated solar energy in super-heated water underground.By Stephen Robert Miller • May 23, 2024
Done
Last edited by Void (2024-08-27 10:36:21)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#402 2024-10-02 06:48:51
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technol … r-AA1rymdX
Quote:
Company announces achievements in development of seemingly unlimited underground power source: 'The most productive enhanced geothermal system in history'
Story by Jeremiah Budin • 12h • 2 min read
Geothermal could be of use on Mars as well.
Ending Pending 
Last edited by Void (2024-10-02 06:51:24)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#403 2024-12-10 09:10:21
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
Sage Geothermal looks interesting: https://www.sagegeosystems.com/
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC Quote:
New Generation Geothermal: The Future of Energy with Sage Geosystems’ Cindy Taff
YouTube
Forging the Future with Chris Howard
5 days ago
Their methods are a bit different. They apparently inflate a well like a lung, usually cycling about 20% of the liquid with each inflation/deflation.
-They say that for the actual geothermal they can put heat in, and expect then to get out 2 times as much energy.
-They also seem to have a method to tap the water flow itself at a 70% round trip efficiency.
So, then seem to intend to store solar and wind energy. But they are not necessarily only about thermal storage, but as I have said they seem to indicate that they can also get actual geothermal energy out as well.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2024-12-10 09:14:52)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#404 2024-12-21 11:03:51
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
Here is another claim: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/i … b6e2627&ei
Quote:
t’s Fracking Marvelous: Geothermal Set To Become Miracle New Energy Source
Story by Douglas McIntyre • 3d • 2 min read
So, I know that there are haters here for alternative energy. But I anticipate improvements if function of Solar, Wind, and Batteries. And geothermal might be able to substitute for Natural Gas Peaker plants I think.
I don't have much problem with responsible nuclear, but politics are real. Some things just can't happen because powerful entities will not let them happen.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2024-12-21 11:06:59)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#405 2025-03-01 11:38:39
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
This is rather nice in being detailed more than any other related article I have seen: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … RM=VRDGARs Quote:
Geothermal Energy is Changing
YouTube
Real Engineering
22.3K views
1 hour ago
It is about Quaise Energy, with a special drilling method. It does not seem overly optimistic or pessimistic, so then explains to some degree the extent of the problems of the task.
So, I think it is worth watching the video.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2025-03-01 11:44:47)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#406 2025-03-02 12:08:41
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
This is encouraging: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOIlMdIqXbQ
Quote:
I Was Wrong About Geothermal Energy.
Sabine Hossenfelder
Just for fun, I have been thinking about geothermal on Saturn's moon Titan.
It turns out that there may be a crust of Methane Clathrates that may insulate the underlying materials.
https://www.space.com/saturn-titan-methane-ice-life
Quote:
Scientists have discovered that the icy shell of Saturn's largest moon, Titan, could possess an insulated, six-mile-thick (9.7-kilometer-thick) layer of methane ice beneath its surface. Ironically, this layer may make signs of life from the subsurface ocean of Titan easier to detect. And, down the line, the discovery could benefit the fight against human-driven climate change on Earth.
So, drilling below that might yield a "Warmer" layer. If a hydrocarbon or other gas could be used, then perhaps a large energy source would be available. This might greatly improve the habitability of Titan by humans and robots.
If the dunes of Titan are actually comet dust, then the building materials desired would be common on Titan as well. The materials probably needed in order to do geothermal on Titan, I presume.
https://phys.org/news/2024-04-titan-dunes-comet.html
Quote:
April 18, 2024
Editors' notes
Are Titan's dunes made of comet dust?
by Allen Versfeld, Universe Today
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2025-03-02 12:24:23)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#407 2025-05-01 11:13:07
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
I think this is of interest, as it contains some specs to observe to understand what it can do, apparently.
https://interestingengineering.com/ener … mal-energy
Quote:
Swiss firm develops autonomous drill machine to tap shallow geothermal energy
Developed by the Zurich-based startup Borobotics and nicknamed ‘Grabowski’, the drill measures only 5.3 inches in diameter and 9 feet in length.Updated: Jan 19, 2025 07:39 AM EST
Photo of the Author Christopher McFadden
Christopher McFadden
Quote:
However, despite its clear advantages, the drill is not without drawbacks. The first and most critical is that it tends to be slower than conventional drills. Additionally, it can only drill up to a maximum depth of 1,640 feet (500 meters).
This has both an Earth and Mars interest, I think.
For Earth, it is my feeling that if you decentralize power, that advantages the kind of culture I prefer. Solar is potentially decentralized, and this looks like it could be as well. If used with a heat pump, then in the summer, as you cool your house, you lay up neat for the winter, and in the winter, of course you lay up cooling for the summer.
I think that in generally for the "American Ways", (Maybe other similar countries as well, maybe Canada), we want a certain amount of individuality and a certain amount of hiving, or collective process. Of course by collective I am not talking commies, rather large utilities. But that is the point, commies and fascists, adore collective centralization as then they can threaten to cut off utilities, or slowly drain the wealth from individuals to support inefficiency at the central controls.
For Mars, it appears that the weight of the drill system may be compatible with shipping them from Earth and getting a desired result on Mars. It is a potential way to turn "Dumb Rock" into machinery, with a minimum of consumption of high-quality processed materials.
From a Solar point of view, you could draw "Dumb Heat" from the sun, using a heat pump, as long as the sun caused solar panels to generate electricity. The electricity and heat are almost simultaneous.
So the best heat pump I am aware of from Norway can get up to 180 degrees C, which on Mars could be valuable indeed: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/08/19/ … heat-pump/
Quote:
The world’s hottest heat pump
A Norwegian consortium has built an industrial heat pump that can reach a temperature of up to 180 degrees Celsius. The machine can be used with different industrial processes that rely on steam as an energy carrier and can reduce a facility’s energy consumption by between 40% and 70%, as it enables the recovery of low-temperature waste heat.August 19, 2021 Emiliano Bellini
Those temperatures are considered good enough for some industrial processes, and some heat storage in rocks, near that temperature would likely be a welcome emergency source of heat during problem events, even perhaps Global Dust Storms, or high latitude winters.
And perhaps a similar system could be able to store cold. Mars is very generous with cold.
A hot and a cold unit each potentially could generate power.
Eavors system might be adapted to this situation, I think: https://www.eralberta.ca/story/first-of … oad-power/ Quote:
Eavor Technologies Inc. has developed the world’s first closed-loop geothermal system. In a demonstration project near Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, the Eavor-Lite facility uses existing oil and gas drilling technology and expertise to facilitate the development of an innovative energy supply.
The technology—dubbed the Eavor-Loop™—circulates a proprietary fluid that collects heat from below the earth’s surface in a multi-kilometre loop. Demonstration at this scale will provide the validation needed to de-risk identified commercial opportunities in Canada and around the world.
So, an adaptation of their technology along with the Swiss drill, might be able to be created on Mars, where the things Mars has to offer can become an advantage.
1) Lots of rock.
2) Fluctuating temperatures/Solar Energy.
And if you had nuclear, power similar applies, as you would have backup energy if the nuclear plant needed maintenance/repairs.
But even if you had nuclear, and no solar electric these drilled networks could make a good radiator system/ Storage of heat. And you could still pull heat out of simple thermal solar panels, perhaps using a heat pump method.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2025-05-01 11:39:17)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#408 2025-05-01 11:55:26
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
This post is dependent on the just prior post as it is for the Moon, where the prior was for Earth and Mars.
The drill system would likely have to be revised to use CO2 as the working fluid instead of water. If that is possible then for the Moon, there could be some promise.
The Moon is rock with extreme temperature variation as common to much of the surface.
I expect that under the loose regolith, the rock may be less fractured. It would be needed to have a method to plug the fractures that may exist.
As for CO2 on the Moon, I have suggested various methods to make it more economical to have and use on the Moon.
Here are some suggestions in another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 18#p231318 https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p231355
Some of the earlier posts in that topic may have more materials.
Anyway, as I see it, Carbon for the Moon has two concerns: 1) How much does it cost to get it to the Moon? 2) What is it worth on the Moon?
If the worth of Carbon is high, then it may be worth getting from Earth to the Moon or from another source to the Moon.
Looking at the Equator of the Moon as an example, it should be possible to get very high heat into CO2 to store in a rock reservoir drilled by the device shown in the prior post.
As for the cooling side, the Moon offers lots of resources to make heat exchangers with. Using a sun shade cold should be possible even in the day, and of course the night will offer very deep cold.
So, then you might be able to create a "Battery" that can generate electricity 24/7. In great part made of rock.
Ending Pending
Of course, some day Mercury. Mercury already has lots of Carbon on it's surface.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2025-05-01 12:08:32)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#409 2025-07-22 16:06:39
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
Well, we may know within a few years about this one: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:
How Fusion Tech Just Changed Geothermal Energy Forever
YouTube
Undecided with Matt Ferrell
107.5K views
Time will tell.
Ending Pending
You never know, maybe it could have use on Mars or Titan.
Some notions have it that the crust of Titan may to some degree consist of thermally insulating Clathrate of Methane and Water.
If so, then deeper down the heat could be significant. I would start with a notion of Methane as a working fluid. But it is a maybe.
However, a Titan with a large amount of geothermal energy and a thick atmosphere has to be attractive even without fusion power.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2025-07-22 16:15:49)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#410 2026-01-22 09:49:24
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
The title is wrong, but the subject material is very interesting, I feel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxWsJgdo8HU
Quote:
West Virginia RELEASED 1 Million Arctic Char Into A Flooded Mine—What Happened Next Defies All Logic
EXTREME AGRICULTURE
So a Geothermal Thermal Battery might be drilled to do similar to the above.
You could use the water to both raise fish and cool Data Centers.
And you could use buildings as radiators. You could also draw Industrial heat from the water at some point to cool the water.
Something like this might be done in Mars lava tubes, is you could fill them with water.
The method that Nitrogen and CO2 got concentrated into the mine water might explain where much of the atmosphere went. It may be in the deep aquifers that are thought to exist in the Martian crust.
Perhaps industrial Ammonia could be harvested from this process as well.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-01-22 09:54:05)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#411 2026-01-22 12:05:01
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,193
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
Referring to the prior post, it seems that there can be a case for "Cold" geothermal.
Either with Eavor or Fracking Methods.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Evor+Geot … pc=EDGEXST
So, in a weird way, places that are not great for deep hot geothermal, might be good for shallow cold geothermal.
Probably high latitudes with no permafrost might do.
A temperature from 52 to 58 degrees F may be the target. That would not be the natural rock temperature, but what it might settle to, if you have various inputs and outputs of cold and heat.
An interesting game would be to have a northern lake where you have robots that harvest ice and then perhaps melt it using Data Server heat, and then push the Melt Water though a geothermal well. Then that could would be available for the summer as well perhaps.
Mixing ice water with Data Center waste heat, you could achieve the 52 to 58 degrees F water for that fish farming.
Harvesting ice off of a lake would increase evaporation a little bit but I don't think it would dry up a lake for instance.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-01-22 12:25:08)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#412 2026-01-22 14:29:48
- kbd512
- Administrator
- Registered: 2015-01-02
- Posts: 8,447
Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)
Void,
Supercritical CO2 undergoes such extreme density changes based upon temperature that pumping it down a well creates a thermosiphon effect, such that additional pumping power is not needed, unlike water or steam. It's actually more efficient than water / steam, even at low temperatures, again, because no pumping power is required. They're experimenting with that in frack wells here in Texas at temperatures as low as 150C. The top side equipment remains very small because the turbine is still much smaller than a steam turbine.
For an ordinary frack well that goes down 5,000 to 15,000ft Total Vertical Depth (TVD), a 3MWe turbine, gearbox, printed circuit heat exchanger, and electric generator still occupies less "pad space" than the equipment normally used to produce oil or gas from the well. We literally have hundreds of thousands of these small wells, so if they were ever suitable for fracking to begin with, then they're also suitable candidates for SCO2 geothermal conversion. It's a closed-loop system that generates electric power and does not appear to lose much power or CO2 over time. SCO2 doesn't leach salt from the layer cake rock formations containing various salts, unlike water / steam. That's part of why it's stable over time, and incurs less damage to the turbine and heat exchanger equipment from corrosion. Since the operating temperatures are so low, and pressures as well, plain Carbon steels or Austempered Ductile Iron can be used. That means the equipment can be much cheaper than high temperature units because you don't need big chunks of Inconel.
Traditional geothermal systems attempt to find some ideal formation for generating power from steam, and tend to be very large, time-consuming to construct, and thus costly. These new SCO2 systems are so small that the entire equipment skid easily fits on the bed of a "short trailer". One standard length trailer has enough physical space and carrying capacity to take the equipment skid and a small crane to the well head to emplace the power generation unit. You will obviously need more trucks to carry step-up / step-down transformers, power cables, and poles, but that's about it. It's like a mini reactor, but without the security requirements.
Texas has 439,000 wells, give or take a few. Let's say only 100,000 are suitable for generating electric power. That's 300GWe worth of firm power- the only kind acceptable for data centers and manufacturing. Texas total electric generating capacity in summer (Texas has lots of wind and solar) is only 168GW from all sources (natural gas, coal, oil, wind, solar, nuclear, etc). 300GWe would be a very nice capacity addition for AI data centers and manufacturing plants. We could pay the well operators a fee to maintain their abandoned wells so they continue generating electricity after out-living their usefulness for oil / gas production. At 600t per 3MWe onshore wind turbine vs 6t for a 3MWe SCO2 gas turbine, the metal-to-metal efficiency ratio is 100:1 in favor of the SCO2 gas turbine.
Maybe we'd finally have enough excess mid-day grid capacity to think about charging EVs at work. If we can devote 70GW to cars for 2 hours per day, that's enough juice for 10M cars to drive about 56 miles per day. There are about 22M total registered vehicles of all types in the Texas. Mid-day charging using opportunistic power is the only kind that works because it's the only kind that doesn't involve running natural gas turbines at night, which defeats the stated purpose behind using EVs when that's how they're otherwise going to be recharged.
Offline
Like button can go here