Void Postings

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-11 14:14:11

For Void re laser energy from GEO...

Thanks for this follow up to an earlier report about this company.

The greater detail about working from GEO helps to turn this from a fantasy to something practical.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-13 11:13:29

For Void ... thanks for bringing Tom Mueller to our attention!

This Wikipedia article might complement the link you provided.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Mueller

I was interested to learn that Mr. Mueller is the designer whose Merlin engine is the model for the Optical Plane studies.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-14 07:15:33

For Void re interesting post on acceleration of electrons to propel a space craft...

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 79#p236179

Thank you for this review of the use of electrons for propulsion...

Please ask Co-Pilot to see if it can discover where the electrons are coming from.

The spacecraft is equipped/fitted with a certain number of electrons, which ** must ** equal the number of protons in the system. Electrons are not created in the space craft itself. Please ask Co-Pilot to explain where the electrons needed for propulsion are going to come from.

It is possible the supply of electrons might be presumed to be solar wind, but the article you posted did not make that clear.

A post dedicated to the creation of electrons would be a helpful addition to your series. I presume electrons are created in our Sun, and in all suns through nuclear fusion, but I've not seen anything (or forgot it if I have) about how electrons are made.

I would like to point out that relativistic electrons are a potent radiation hazard, so a space craft using this technique will be creating a hazard for down stream objects (including living objects) for years and great distances.

This doesn't mean humans won't use this technique. It merely means that propulsion using this method will increase the total amount of high velocity radiation that is present in space, so humans who travel in space must protect themselves against relativistic electrons as well as relativistic protons or atoms stripped of electrons such as alpha particles.

If you have a moment more to follow up on the question of relativistic electrons, please ask Co-Pilot to try to estimate the current amount of relativistic electron flow that exists in open space. My guess is that there are as many free electrons moving around in space as there are positively charged objects with protons missing electrons, but that's just a guess. Hopefully Co-Pilot can find scientific studies that have considered this question. For those with a particular interest in accounting for particles, I recognize that the sentence above could have been worded better. Some positively charged objects are missing just one electron, but many are missing more than one electron. For example, alpha particles are missing four, so the number of objects must necessarily be less than the number of free electrons. Perhaps the term "hole" is better, but even that term is not quite right. Perhaps Co-Pilot can provide a better phrasing?

Thanks again for adding this interesting new content to the forum archives.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-15 16:18:20

For Void re post on electrons as suitable for use as propellant...

Thanks again for introducing this concept to the forum. I appreciate the learning opportunity, and came away with an understanding that a space vessel that uses ionization will be in position to accelerate positively charged objects and an equal quantity of negatively charged objects so as to maintain a balance.

I had not considered this need before you brought the matter to our attention.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2026-01-01 14:17:27

For Void re Falcon 1 landing on the Moon ....

I don't know the answer to this, and would be interested if you can find out.

My question is inspired by your recent post about possibly using Falcon 9 upper stage as a Moon lander.

Can the Falcon 9 upper stage land on the Moon?

How does the Falcon 9 upper stage land on Earth?

If the Falcon 9 upper stage cannot currently land on Earth, what would it take to give it that ability?

Is it technically feasible? I assume it must be because others than SpaceX have landed on the Moon.

In reading my question, I realized you might be thinking of the first stage as a Moon lander,. and that is why you suggested sending the stage to orbit using a Starship?

May I have your permission to revise my question? Can the Falcon 9 first stage land on the Moon?

Does the Falcon 9 use GPS to know it's position when it is landing? Does it use radio signals from the ground at the landing site to help it determine it's position?

Does the software in the Falcon 9 first stage use the force of gravity in computing burns?

Would the software have to be modified?

These are all interesting questions that our readers might appreciate your investigating.

There are really two questions there, because your post specifically suggests the second stage.

Question? Why would you not make Lunar Landers out of Falcon 9 2nd Stages?

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2026-01-04 10:44:41

For Void re iron oxide shipped from the Moon to LEO.

Please pursue this.

Like your idea of dropping durable payloads from descending rockets on Mars, it may have potential for development.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2026-01-04 13:09:11

For Void re link to Wikipedia article on Dr Gerard O'Neill...

Thank you for the link to the Wikipedia article...

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 68#p236868

The authors have done a terrific job of covering many aspects of Dr. O'Neill's life, with coverage of related branches such as the L5 Society.

You are probably aware of the Earth-Sun LaGrange points. For example, there is a Sun viewing satellite at the Earth-Sun L1 point, and I am pretty sure that the new James Webb telescope is at Earth-Sun L2.

I was under the misunderstanding that The L5 Society was planning a meeting at the Earth-Sun L5 point.

The diagram you showed us corrected my misunderstanding. Earth-Moon L5 is ** still ** difficult, but the Earth-Sun would be MUCH more challenging.

So far, no Earth probes are reported to have ventured to the Earth-Moon L5 point.

Here is a link to a report on a telescopic search of all the Earth-Moon LaGrange points:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3583902099

According to the summary, no objects were found. That doen't mean there are none there, but if they are there they are too faint to be seen.

Perhaps a large space telescope might see something, but I'll bet it would be difficult to compete for telescope time to look.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2026-01-05 15:19:26

For Void re Dust Cave for radiation protection ...
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 10#p236910

Pretty Clever!

(th)

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 09:44:44

For Void re drawing talent ...

Void, I have created a new topic that will focus upon spherical Cabins for space habitats.

GW Johnson has advocated a simple baton concept for an exploration vessel.

You yourself have written about habitats of many different configurations.

We have just one or two members who can create images. Would you be willing to show GW's baton in the context of the new topic? If you're not sure what GW proposed, we have a topic where he discusses the idea:

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10576

GW shows us a design based upon cylinders joined together to make a continuous structure that rotates.

What I'm hoping you might provide is a drawing showing something like the space ship imagined for the movie "2001"

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 42#p214142

The difference would be that the sphere would be located at each end of the habitat.

(th)

Void · Yesterday 10:51:47

I would be willing to make an attempt which we might consider to be a precursor to a more professional work. It is in my nature to do the minimum necessary, but I can try a little harder.

Paint allow some things well, other things not so much. But perhaps I could try grinding on it a bit harder.

But I periodically change houses that I live in, and I am about to do so in the next days. That takes up time.

So, some patience is required.

Ending Pending

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 11:21:21

For Void!

Thanks for considering this opportunity!

You are a human being, and because of that you can create a drawing that is in the correct proportions.

It will be worth waiting for your schedule to permit an attempt.

To give you a sense of scale, I think that two Starships bolted stern to stern (without injury to the propulsion systems) would provide the cylinder portion.

It's very possible this configuration has been considered previously in the forum.

The globes at the end I would leave to your good judgement. There is a rule of proportion for architecture. I find that it has escaped my memory banks. At one time I knew it well. The proportion I am remembering is ? possibly ? called the Golden mean. There is a numerical relationship such that the human eye sees the object as "just right".

The movie 2001 probably used that rule in designing the artwork for the deep space vessel they created.

When your artwork is finished, it will be judged by other human beings (with your permission) via display in the forum.

(th)

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 15:35:14

For Void... this post is in your honor.... Not long ago, you posted about iron oxide from the Moon...

I decided to ask Gemini to ** think ** about that ... the quote below is the result:

Iron Oxide on the Moon - Hello Again! Thank you for your help with many previous requests. This one comes from a member of our small international forum. The question revolves around the theory/hypothesis/guess that iron Oxide in the Lunar regolith might be shipped to Earth LEO for manufacture of iron products and for supply of oxygen for respiration and for propulsion. I am hoping you might be able to investigate to see if there is anything to this idea.
***
It is great to see you again! That is a fascinating topic. Using the Moon as a "gas station" and "hardware store" for Earth’s orbit is a cornerstone of future space industrialization.
The idea of extracting iron and oxygen from Lunar regolith isn't just a wild guess; it is a serious field of study known as In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU).
The Composition: What are we working with?
The Lunar regolith (the layer of loose dust and rocks) is rich in oxides. While we often think of "rust" (Hematite or Magnetite), on the Moon, iron is primarily found in the form of Ilmenite (FeTiO
3
) and various silicates.
Iron (Fe): Makes up about 5% to 15% of the regolith by weight.
Oxygen (O): Surprisingly, oxygen is the most abundant element on the Moon by mass (about 42%), but it is chemically locked away in these oxide minerals.
The Extraction Process: How it works
To get the iron and oxygen out, you have to break the chemical bonds. The most discussed method is Molten Regolith Electrolysis (MRE) or Hydrogen Reduction.
Hydrogen Reduction: Regolith is heated to about 1000°C and exposed to hydrogen gas. The hydrogen reacts with the iron oxide to produce water (H
2
O) and solid iron. The water is then electrolyzed to release the oxygen and recycle the hydrogen.
Molten Regolith Electrolysis: This is like a high-tech blast furnace. You melt the "dirt" at temperatures exceeding 1600°C and pass an electric current through it. Oxygen bubbles off at the anode, and molten metals (like iron and silicon) settle at the cathode.
Why ship it to LEO (Low Earth Orbit)?
The forum member's suggestion of shipping these to LEO is based on the "Gravity Well" argument.
Energy Efficiency: Earth's gravity is very strong. Launching a kilogram of iron from Earth to LEO requires a massive amount of fuel.
The Lunar Advantage: The Moon has 1/6th the gravity of Earth and no atmosphere. It is energetically "cheaper" to send material from the Moon's surface to LEO than it is to send it from Earth’s surface, despite the Moon being much further away.
Applications: * Oxygen: Used for life support on the ISS or as oxidizer for rockets heading to Mars.
Iron: Used for large-scale construction (space stations, solar arrays) using 3D printing in vacuum.
The Challenges
While the physics works, the engineering is difficult:
Abrasive Dust: Lunar dust is sharp and glass-like; it destroys seals and mechanical joints quickly.
Power Requirements: Electrolysis requires massive amounts of consistent energy, likely necessitating nuclear reactors or enormous solar farms on the Lunar surface.
Transport Infrastructure: We would need a "Lunar Elevator" or electromagnetic railguns (mass drivers) to make the shipping cost-effective.
Is there "anything to this"?
Absolutely. NASA’s Artemis program and private companies like Blue Origin (with their "Blue Alchemist" project) are actively prototyping these exact technologies. They view oxygen extraction as the first step toward a self-sustaining lunar base.
Would you like me to look into the specific Blue Alchemist project or perhaps find data on how much energy it actually takes to extract a kilogram of oxygen from the Moon?
***
Please try to look beyond the early research such as what NASA might be able to do in the near future. The energy cost of shipping materials from Earth to LEO is likely to be much greater than the energy cost of shipping from the Moon, or working in LEO. The availability of abundant energy from the Sun is a factor that surely will influence major investment. I am interested in industrial scale operations. Most humans are timid in trying to imagine what is possible. Most humans in the 1400's could barely imagine ships sailing around the Earth, let alone the massive industry we see 500 years later.
***
It is refreshing to step away from the "boots and flags" mentality and look at the Moon as a genuine industrial powerhouse. If we look 50 to 100 years out, we aren't just looking at a research base; we are looking at an orbital ecosystem where the Moon is the primary supplier of heavy materials for the entire Earth-Moon system.
The "Industrial Moon" isn't a pipe dream; it is an exercise in Thermodynamics and Gravity Economics.
1. The Gravity Advantage: "The Moon is 95% of the way to anywhere"
As you noted, the energy cost (measured in ΔV or change in velocity) is the true currency of space.
From Earth to LEO: Requires roughly 9.4 km/s of velocity change. You are fighting a deep gravity well and a thick atmosphere.
From Moon to LEO: Only requires about 2.4 km/s of velocity change (using "aerobraking" to slow down in Earth's atmosphere).
On an industrial scale, this means that for every 1 kg of material you launch from Earth, you could theoretically move 20 to 50 kg of material from the Moon for the same energy price. Once you have established the infrastructure, Earth becomes the "expensive boutique" for high-tech electronics and people, while the Moon becomes the "wholesale warehouse" for bulk materials.
2. The Scale of Production: Beyond 2026
Recent studies (as of 2025-2026) have moved from small "kilogram-scale" labs to pilot plants like the ROXY (Regolith to Oxygen and Metals) system.
Industrial Output: A mid-sized lunar factory could produce hundreds of tons of oxygen and iron per year.
Iron as a Byproduct: In many oxygen-extraction processes (like Hydrogen Reduction or Molten Regolith Electrolysis), iron is the "waste product." If you are mining for life-sustaining oxygen, you are essentially getting massive piles of free, high-purity iron as a result.
3. The "Mass Driver": Shipping without Rockets
In a mature industrial age, we won't use rockets to ship iron to LEO; we will use Mass Drivers. These are essentially miles-long electromagnetic railguns powered by solar or nuclear energy.
The Mechanism: An electromagnetic track accelerates "buckets" of iron or liquid oxygen to lunar escape velocity (2.4 km/s).
The Cost: Because it uses electricity from the sun rather than chemical propellant, the cost per kilogram drops from thousands of dollars to less than $1.
The Destination: These payloads are launched toward a "catcher" at a Lagrange point or into a trajectory that lets them be captured by orbital refineries in LEO.
4. Solar Energy: The Infinite Battery
The Moon is essentially a giant solar collector.
The "Peak of Eternal Light": At the lunar poles, some crater rims are in sunlight nearly 99% of the time.
Vacuum Efficiency: Without an atmosphere to scatter light or clouds to block it, solar panels are significantly more efficient and long-lived than on Earth. On an industrial scale, we could see "Luna Ring" projects—a belt of solar panels around the Moon’s equator providing constant, gigawatt-scale power to refineries.
Summary of the Industrial Shift
Material Earth Sourcing (Now) Lunar Sourcing (Industrial Era)
Oxygen Bottled on Earth, high launch cost. Extracted from dust, used as "LEO gas station" fuel.
Iron Impossible to launch in bulk (too heavy). Produced as byproduct, 3D printed into space stations.
Launch Method Chemical rockets (expensive, finite). Electromagnetic Mass Drivers (electric, infinite).
Energy Fossil fuels/Grid power. Abundant, unfiltered solar power.
A thought for your forum: In the 1400s, the "limiting reagent" was the durability of wood and the reliability of wind. Today, our "limiting reagent" is the high cost of getting mass out of Earth's gravity. The moment we start using "Off-Earth" mass, the scale of what we can build—orbital cities, massive telescopes, solar power satellites—grows by a factor of 100 almost overnight.
Would you like me to look into the Specific Energy Density comparison? For example, comparing how many megajoules it takes to extract 1 ton of iron on the Moon versus the energy required to launch 1 ton from Cape Canaveral?
***
Thank you for creating what I hope will be an interesting post for our forum! Let's pause here and wait to see if a member has a reaction. I think most of our members are ready to take a look at the longer term future, after we've spent so much time looking at the near term.
***
That sounds like a perfect place to pause. Stepping away from the "near-term" constraints of current budgets and small-scale prototypes allows for a much more realistic view of what a true spacefaring civilization looks like.
Just as the transition from wooden sailing ships to steel steamships changed the very nature of global trade, the transition from "Earth-Launched" to "Space-Sourced" materials will be the defining shift of the 21st and 22nd centuries.
When your forum members weigh in, I suspect the conversation might naturally drift toward a few key areas:
The "Chicken and Egg" Problem: How do we get the first "factory" to the Moon to start the cycle?
Orbital Manufacturing: What do we build in LEO with all that "cheap" lunar iron? (Giant rotating habitats, perhaps?)
Governance: Who "owns" the industrial zones of the Moon?
I’ll be here whenever you’re ready to dive back in or explore a specific reaction from your community.
Would you like me to prepare a "Speculative Timeline" (from 2050 to 2150) of how this lunar industry might scale from the first pilot plant to a global mass-driver network?

PS ... I just saw a report that Google may be adapting Gemini to work with Atlas.

If you can find anything about that it would likely be of interest to readers.

(th)

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