Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

Calliban · 2025-11-12 17:30:06

It may turn out that substantial water will eventually be found beneath the surface of the moon. Go just 1m down and temperature is a stable -20°C even at the equator. So any water at this depth will not be mobile. Any that migrates through the interlocking maze of mineral grains, will be trapped at this depth. Any small cracks and crevices in the surface may also serve as cold traps.

Regarding the reduction of Mars iron oxide using hydrogen. This would be a good way of producing extremely strong bricks. Graded fine regolith is richer in iron oxide than most Earth soils. Graded fines could be compressed into a mold producing a green brick. The green brick is then baked in an oven at temperatures of 1000°C for a period of several hours in a hydrogen atmosphere. The iron oxide woukd be steadily reduced by the H2. This results in long chain oxide molecules with partial oxidation states. This polymerised iron oxide makes the brick stronger than steel (in compression).

Last edited by Calliban (2025-11-12 17:31:38)

Void · 2025-11-12 21:25:08

Good Points Calliban. There is certainly a lot of Moon and Mars to get water from and to make "Bricks" from.

I think that for both worlds, the story of the abundance of water keeps expanding.

So, it may be that there will be enough water to last, until a sort of Von Neumann process can be placed into the solar system.

Where that sort of thing speculates on a machine that seeks to replicate itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine

We could imagine a collection of machines, not that much smarter than a bee's hive (More or Less) that would devote its interests in bringing volatile materials to dry worlds, and to maintain themselves. The solar system has energy and materials and time. If you put a semi-intelligent manipulative machine structure to work, it might dedicate itself to more or less irrigating our Moon.

But for now, there may be enough materials in the Moon to help bootstrap humans and their machines into the solar system.

Ending Pending

One thing I forgot to include is salt on the Moon.

As usual my phone search gave much more than my computer search, until I used phrases from the phone search:

https://www.sciencealert.com/change-5-m … -moon-soil
Quote:

Chang'e-5 Hydrated Salt Minerals
The Chang'e-5 mission has made significant strides in understanding the presence of water on the Moon. The mission's findings include the discovery of a hydrated mineral enriched in water, which contains up to six water molecules and accounts for about 41% of its mass. This mineral, known as ULM-1, is a prismatic, plate-like transparent crystal and is believed to have formed from volcanic eruptions on the Moon. The presence of this mineral suggests that water molecules can persist in sunlit areas of the Moon as hydrated salts, which could be crucial for future lunar exploration and habitation

Sodium and Potassium Salts have been mentioned as a sort of salt, but also in the atmosphere of Moon: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sci … 1.4866.675
Quote:

Discovery of Sodium and Potassium Vapor in the Atmosphere of the Moon
A. E. Potter and T. H. MorganAuthors Info & Affiliations

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180981906/
Quote:

Scientists Find Water in Glass Beads From the Moon
This means the lunar surface could hold up to 300 billion tons of water, a new study estimates
Will Sullivan
Will Sullivan - Daily Correspondent
March 31, 2023

Some stories indicate that the beads came from volcanism, and some stories say it is beads from impacts that make craters.

So, here is the Question: "Could we manufacture the salts and beads, and put them under the shade of solar panels to collect water?" This is to collect water that moves horizontally with the day/night cycle. Then to extract the water and then restore the collector device.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-12 22:33:10)

Void · 2025-11-13 08:51:31

From post #26 Calliban said:

It may turn out that substantial water will eventually be found beneath the surface of the moon. Go just 1m down and temperature is a stable -20°C even at the equator. So any water at this depth will not be mobile. Any that migrates through the interlocking maze of mineral grains, will be trapped at this depth. Any small cracks and crevices in the surface may also serve as cold traps.

I am revisiting the ideas of Moon formation. Collision? Other?

Quote:

Images
Videos
Slight moisture content
The Moon is not completely dry, but it has a slight moisture content. Recent research has confirmed the presence of water molecules (H2O) on the Moon's surface, particularly in sunlit areas, indicating that water is widely distributed across the lunar surface. Additionally, studies have detected water within ancient volcanic deposits, suggesting that the Moon's interior may contain substantial amounts of water. Overall, while the Moon is not wet like Earth, it does have a slightly moist environment.
ZME Science
+2

https://www.zmescience.com/feature-post … eters-rep/
Quote:

Scientists have finally confirmed what lies deep inside the Moon and it’s surprisingly Earth-like
The moon is still an extremely interesting place to study.
Fermin KoopbyFermin Koop November 5, 2025 in The Moon
A A
Edited and reviewed by Mihai Andrei

I am going to speculate that the Moon may have water vapor emissions from deep down at times.

What seems to be more certain is that the Moon has water cycles like Earth even though it does not have a proper atmosphere.
it has water vapor, that "Condenses" into minerals in the temporary cold spots, and we think also longer-lived frost in the polar craters.

Can we ever say that the Moon has a Relative Humidity? I think it does.

Elon Musk has speculated that Quantum Computing might work very well on the Moon, in the polar craters. Also Data Centers with solar power on the Moon. If there is $$$, then it may be affordable to import substances the Moon is low on, but it may be that it has enough water.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-13 09:07:59)

Void · 2025-11-14 08:55:49

This topic has a multiplanetary range, but ultimately it is more about being able to redirect energy to suit human desires than anything.

In post #11, I mentioned making wind breaks to hang solar panels on, in Hellas.

Elsewhere (th) is working on "Trees" for Mars: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11237

This is fine as we may get multiple solutions.

I start with bulk materials from Mars in the case of Mars:

Quote:

Copilot Search:
The process of compressing Martian soil into bricks has been a topic of interest for researchers and engineers. Here are the key points of the process:
Mars-1a Simulant: The process involves using a Mars-1a simulant, which is a Martian soil simulant created to mimic Martian soil conditions.
6
High-Pressure Compression: The soil is placed in a flexible container and compressed under high pressure, similar to the pressure generated by dropping a 10-lb hammer from a height of one meter.
5
Iron Oxide Binding Agent: The iron oxide particles in the Martian soil act as a bonding agent, allowing the soil to form a solid that is similar to dense rock.
6
Strength and Durability: The resulting bricks are stronger and more resilient than steel-reinforced concrete, even without the need for additives or heating.
6
This innovative method not only reduces the need for additional materials but also eliminates the need for heating or baking, making it a practical solution for constructing structures on Mars. The research has been supported by NASA and has the potential to revolutionize space exploration and settlement on Mars.
6

.

https://www.zmescience.com/science/mars-brick-is-cool/
Quote:

Turns out you can make harder-than-concrete bricks on Mars simply by compressing soil
That's surprisingly convenient.
Alexandru MicubyAlexandru Micu April 27, 2017 - Updated on April 22, 2023 in Science

Image Quote:

So, I would be thinking of a form of metal perhaps into which you could compact Mars soil to make walls to serve as the "Trunks" of "Trees".

https://happho.com/rammed-earth-construction-house/
Image Quote: modernhouse03.jpg.webp

The metal form would be reusable.

My preferred pattern at this time is two walls at a possible (???) degrees of attachment of one end of each wall.

This may, among other things serve as a "Wind Fence" and may somewhat prohibit "Dust Devils".

Dust collected may be converted to something else that will not blow in the wind.

The "Salt Pad" is to be in the shade almost always, and is intended to be cold and to collect moisture.

Robots can microwave it to release water vapor, and a vacuum can collect and condense it into water.

I you have water, and CO2 and Nitrogen, and electricity from sunlight then you can synthesize both a fuel and Oxygen to feed microbes with.

By filling Hellas or other areas with such "Trees" we are increasing the surface area of Hellas, and then so dividing the sunlight. While the solar panels may be warm when illuminated, they may have offsets to allow air to pass behind them. The walls of the trees will tend to be cold.

So, the wind break effect and the coldness of the air coming from the walls, may tend to discourage dust devils. By arraigning that and by collecting the dust into larger objects we may discourage Global Dust Storms.

Mars Global Dust Storms tend to erupt once every 3 Martian summers, I believe.

So, for at least 2 out of the 3 summers we can shine light on the "Trees" in Hellas from orbit. In the other seasons we can do that as well.
This should increase productivity. But of course the goal is to quell Global Dust Storms, so this has to be moderated carefully to avoid those.

I think that the other factor of Mars Global Dust Storm would be a cold Mars Winter in the North Hemisphere.

Using mirrors we can warm up the North polar areas to inhibit that factor. While doing that we can also do "Mars Trees", or even melt some water from the North Ice cap.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-14 09:41:11)

Void · 2025-11-14 10:43:41

I wish to innovate on the basis of a post from (th): https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 57#p235457
Quote:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 23,092
Email
For Void re https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p235455
Thank you for the reminder of the important and visionary work you are doing!
It seems to me that the idea of dust fences would certainly help with the ongoing and persistent problem of dust on Mars.
In opening the new topic about fixing the surface of Mars, I was attempting to follow up on ideas of Calliban and kbd512 about materials that are available on Mars. It seems to me your idea would surely help, with the caveat that the material of which they are to be made must be identified.
It seems to me that fences such as you have described might help to ease the problem, by discouraging dust from lifting up into the air in the first place.
A study of how well fences work for this purpose would be interesting.
A similar idea would be honeycomb style structures. Those would just be tiny fences. The dust might flow in but it is unlikely to escape.
Thanks for your suggestions!
(th)

In the area where there are ice slabs we might mine ice and create "Dust Trips". Extracting the ice and leaving a hole.

The only problem with this is we have to make sure that we pack enough dirt onto the walls of ice left behind so that the ice body does not keep evaporating.

While many who think of mining this ice will think to blast and collect or liquify, I am of the view that forced sublimation may be best.

How about a big hovercraft balloon with skirts? It is to have a tank to compress Mars air into, and then may periodically release the air under it to become temporarily mobile. The Balloon may become a condenser for water, as heat applied under it would evaporate a trench, and the air sucked in then compressed and the Mars environment being cold condensation may result.

The device may have a following skirt that will tail in the trench which is being created.

Heat is applied under the device to cause buried ice to waste into water vapor. The water vapor is sucked into a compressor and so condensed into liquid water, and perhaps Ice.

Water Trucks should then come to take away the collected water to a desired purpose such as Fuel for Starships or greenhouses, etc.

A balloon hovercraft would be lightweight and so relatively easy to move with bursts of compressed air under it and with longer intervals of harvesting water. The Balloon itself might be the reservoir of compressed air to do the movement.

The resulting trench may possibly demobilize dust that falls into it.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-14 11:08:15)

Void · 2025-11-14 11:50:04

I would hope to have "Mars Trees" eventually wherever temporary ice caps form. The vertical walls might thaw much sooner than the ground that they are on so this might allow an early spring thaw. Of course, the structures will have to endure a Martian winter with CO2 condensate perhaps.

We could hasten the thaw of the temporary ice caps with orbital mirrors. We would be shining light onto vertical solar panels mounted on the "Mars Trees".

As for the South and North Ice caps, I suggest only warming the south cap to vaporize the permanent CO2 ice cap content.

As for the North I would want to try to melt a little sea all the way around that North ice cap.

Copilot Search:

Images
Videos
The northern ice cap on Mars depresses the rocky crust beneath it due to the weight of the ice. The ice sheet is approximately 1,000 kilometers in diameter and up to 3 kilometers thick, and its load causes a phenomenon known as glacial isostatic adjustment, which is similar to how Earth's surface is affected by ice sheets. This process results in the crust being depressed, with the rate of deformation estimated to be about 0.13 millimeters per year, indicating that the mantle beneath Mars is highly viscous and cold.

https://astrobiology.com/2025/03/marss- … neath.html
Quote:

Mars’s Northern Ice Cap Is Young With A Cold, Stiff Mantle Beneath
By Keith Cowing
Press Release
DLR
March 3, 2025
LinkedInFacebookTwitter
Filed under DLR

So, I am hoping for direct melting under ice. That is you might create an aquifer in the ice cap by bombarding it with microwave energy, and sunlight from mirrors. Rivers can flow on Mars if they are ice covered.

So, I hope to produce a liquid water sea ringed in the low area around the ice cap. The Sea will be ice covered, but may support life under the ice.

So, indeed I intend to promote the idea of Mirrors made from Phobos and Deimos, to assist in making Mars more habitable.

Keep in mind that in the deep winter of Mars mirrors will be melting this ice, not just in the summer.

As for evaporation, it has no place to go but onto one of the ice caps.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-14 11:56:54)

Void · Yesterday 09:27:00

The Saudi seem to be involved with an interesting process for cooling solar panels.

https://www.sustainability-times.com/en … gy-output/ Quote:

“Desert Tech Breaks Physics”: Saudi Cooling System Slashes Solar Panel Heat by 49°F, Triples Lifespan, Surges Energy Output
In a remarkable breakthrough for renewable energy, scientists at Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah University of Science and Technology have developed an innovative cooling technology that dramatically enhances the efficiency, output, and lifespan of solar panels, promising to reshape the future of solar energy.
Rosemary PotterRosemary Potter06/06/202536

Copilot Search:

Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST) has developed a groundbreaking cooling technology for solar panels. This innovative method utilizes a composite material made of lithium chloride and sodium polyacrylate, which absorbs moisture from the air during the night and releases it during the day through evaporation. This process not only reduces the temperature of the solar panels but also boosts their power output and extends their lifespan. The technology has been tested in diverse environments, demonstrating its potential for widespread application in the solar energy sector.

From post #29:

My preferred pattern at this time is two walls at a possible (???) degrees of attachment of one end of each wall.

So, we have two methods to collect moisture from the Mars atmosphere, and in one case it may increase the output and longevity of solar panels.

The salt bed I suggested needs an independent robot to collect moisture from the salt periodically. However, the Saudi method with the moisture collector behind the solar panels, then releases moisture on the heating of the solar panels, and that moisture could be automatically collected at the tops of the solar panels.

Now then a Mars tree could do various manipulations.

It could split the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen and release them to atmosphere. The Hydrogen would be a greenhouse gas but would rapidly leave the atmosphere.

Or you could make hydrocarbons and Oxygen (Also using CO2) and feed it to microbes. Mushrooms could grow on the residue of bacteria.
The organic process would probably leak greenhouse gasses by intention or as a natural imperfection of a process.

So, these trees could in fact produce product, Algae, Yeast, Mushrooms perhaps. Also, electricity also Methane could be created, and Oxygen created.

And it should be reminded that water is to be produced as well, so humans could live near these "Forests". The "Forests" can be at very low altitudes like Hellas and the Northern plains. These places provide relatively better radiation protections.

Electrical conductors and pipelines could be involved in networking these outputs to a useful purpose.

So, it would make a great deal of sense to use mirrors in orbit to add more photons to the processes of these "Trees".

The trees will still need robot tenders, to clean dust off of the solar cells and for other purposes.

So, this might be a pretty useful component of a method to make Mars to be alive and reasonably productive.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 09:44:51)

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Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

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Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

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