Robot Worlds

Void · 2025-10-19 09:47:28

Recently for the Moon, I have been contemplating a world with data centers and robots. This does not exclude humans, if we can maintain a friendly machine structure on such a world.

I think I would like to develop this concept for three initial worlds;
-Luna
-Mars
-Ceres

Ceres might be replaced by another such as 10 Hygea, or not.

There may as well be artificial worlds implemented in various intermediate locations such as Phobos/Demos/Inner belt asteroids.

I anticipate that these worlds will be connected by various means of cargo transfer, including electric propulsion methods and perhaps fusion propulsion methods and anything else that is worth the trouble.

The Moon will offer a world that is the complement of the Earth.
Mars will offer a world that can be made a bit more like Earth.
Ceres or 10 Hygea will offer many of the things that other worlds cannot as easily offer such as Ices.

To start with I want to imagine Mars as such a robot world.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-19 09:50:20)

Void · 2025-10-19 09:54:40

For Mars, while I anticipate any number and kind of robot for use, I have wanted to work on the idea of a robot tree. It is not impossible that such could have legs, but for now I do not promote that, except where it may be useful.

Their are two specific locations I have in mind, the polar ice caps and the Hellas Basin.

Radiation being a problem for thinking machines as well as for Humans these locations offer some potential mercy. For the polar caps, water ice or even liquid water can be used for protection. As for Hellas the thickness of atmosphere may also offer some natural protection. I have discussed the Ice Caps in this manner before and though they have a harsh environment, the ability to manipulate albedo of the ice caps and to alter atmospheric chemistry make the idea attractive. There are water and CO2 locally available, and also in the summer, sunlight for energy.

For Hellas, I am hoping to do a similar thing but along with albedo and atmospheric chemistry, I want to add the potential for planetary dust control.

We can imagine whet the Earth would be like if it had no vegetation, at least on land. Raging rivers cutting the stone of continents, and dust and sand traveling and accumulating unless dropped into liquid water.

Mars might have been like that a long time ago even with open water, but now it does not have the open water. The accumulation of dust in the wind is not surprising.

Wind Fences:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains_Shelterbelt
Quote:

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The Great Plains Shelterbelt project, initiated by President Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1934, aimed to combat the severe dust storms of the Dust Bowl. This initiative involved planting trees along the perimeters of farms to reduce wind velocity and minimize soil erosion. By 1942, 220 million trees had been planted, covering 18,600 square miles in a 100-mile-wide zone from Canada to Texas. The project was a significant effort to address the environmental crisis caused by the Dust Bowl, representing the largest and most-focused government response to an environmental problem at the time.
Wikipedia
Windbreaks, also known as wind fences, were established as part of this initiative to protect the land from wind erosion. Native trees like red cedar and green ash were planted along fence rows, and farmers were compensated for planting and cultivating them. The project was estimated to cost $75 million over 12 years.
Wikipedia
Windbreaks have been a vital practice in the U.S. for soil conservation and agricultural protection since the 1930s. They have reduced soil erosion, protected crops and livestock, and improved farmsteads. Windbreaks can also serve as revenue-generating enterprises when planted with profitable crops.
USDA

Global Dust Storms on Mars seem to occur about every 3 years due to a differential temperature buildup between Hellas as warm and the poles as relatively cold, I speculate.

https://www.sciencealert.com/giant-dust … -heres-why

Quote:

Mars experiences global dust storms that can engulf the entire planet, significantly impacting its atmosphere and missions, with the most notable event occurring in 2018.
Overview of Global Dust Storms
Mars is known for its frequent and intense dust storms, which can occur every Martian year, particularly during the summer months in the southern hemisphere. These storms can start as smaller regional events but can grow to cover vast areas, sometimes enveloping the entire planet for weeks or even months. The storms are driven by complex atmospheric dynamics, including temperature differences between the Martian surface and its atmosphere.
ScienceAlert
+1
The 2018 Global Dust Storm
The 2018 Mars global dust storm was one of the most significant events in recent history. It began in late May 2018 and escalated rapidly, covering the entire planet by mid-June. The storm was notable for its intensity and the rapidity with which it developed, reaching peak conditions where the dust optical depth (a measure of dust concentration) exceeded τ=5, severely reducing sunlight on the surface.
Wikipedia
+1
Impact on Mars Missions: The storm had a profound effect on NASA's Opportunity rover, which had been operational since 2004. The dust blocked sunlight from reaching its solar panels, leading to a suspension of its scientific activities. Unfortunately, Opportunity ceased communication in June 2018, and efforts to re-establish contact were unsuccessful. Meanwhile, the Curiosity rover, which is nuclear-powered, continued its operations unaffected by the storm.
2

2 Sources
Recent Developments and Research
In addition to the 2018 event, Mars continues to experience dust storms, with a notable storm occurring in January 2022 that affected several NASA missions, including the InSight lander and the Ingenuity helicopter. Recent studies have focused on understanding the mechanisms behind these storms, linking them to the planet's energy dynamics and atmospheric conditions. Researchers have found that warm and sunny days can trigger these massive storms, which is crucial for future crewed missions to Mars.
NASA
+2
Conclusion
Mars' global dust storms are a significant aspect of its climate and have important implications for ongoing and future exploration. Understanding these storms helps scientists prepare for the challenges they pose to robotic missions and potential human exploration of the Red Planet.
ScienceAlert
Giant Dust Storms on Mars Engulf The Planet For Months. Here's Why.
SciTechDaily
Unlocking Mars’ Secrets: The Surprising Forces Behind Its Massive Dust ...

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The Fact and Fiction of Martian Dust Storms - NASA
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So, if robot trees could be built their first task would be to serve as windbreaks to cause the dust to accumulate under them or near them.
Then a second task for robots would be to turn the dust into useful product, perhaps used to in part build more robot trees.

Then there is the question of water. Hellas has some glaciers in rugged areas it seems but I would like to extract it from the atmosphere. Robots will not need that much water anyway.

The Saudi people may have come upon something for that:
https://renewableaffairs.com/news/saudi … y-over-12/
Quote:

Saudi Scientists Develop Cooling Gel That Boosts Solar Panel Efficiency by Over 12%
by Preeti Sharma | Jun 14, 2025 | News | 0 comments

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Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST) has developed a groundbreaking cooling technology for solar panels. This innovative system uses a hydrogel composite made of lithium chloride and sodium polyacrylate to absorb moisture from the air during the night and release it during the day for passive cooling. The technology not only boosts solar panel efficiency by 12.9% but also extends their lifespan by more than 200%. The cooling gel operates autonomously, requiring no electricity or maintenance, and has been tested in diverse environments, highlighting its global potential. This development is poised to make a significant impact on the solar energy sector, offering a glimpse into a more sustainable future.
renewableaffairs.com
+5

It captures water vapor from the air at night and evaporatively cools the panels during the day to increase efficiency and to prolong the life of the solar panels.

If a similar process could be included into the robot trees, then small amounts of water might be collected from the atmosphere by each robot tree.

It may also be possible to extract small amounts of water from the soils of Mars as well:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/201 … 010258.pdf
Quote:

Extraction and Capture of Water from Martian Regolith
Experimental Proof-of-Concept
Diane L. Linne1, Julie E. Kleinhenz2, Steven W. Bauman3, Kyle A. Johnson4
NASA Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, OH, 44135

Quote:

Water Extraction from Martian Soil
Extraction and Capture of Water from Ma…
Water Extraction from Martian Soil
Extracting Drinkable Water from the Mar…
How to Extract Water from Soils of Mars …
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Extracting water from Mars soil
NASA's exploration of Mars aims to utilize the planet's resources for human habitation. One of the key goals is to extract water from the Martian soil, which is crucial for sustaining life on Mars. The process involves several innovative methods and technologies, including:
Radiative Heating: This method uses the Mars atmosphere to heat the soil surface to around 60 °C, generating water vapor that can be collected in a condenser flow loop.
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Microwave Energy: Teams like JFEET have developed a microwave-based system that efficiently extracts water from the Martian soil by using microwaves to free bound water molecules. The vaporized water condenses on the roof of the casing and is then transported to a storage unit.
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PARSEC Robot: Northeastern University's PARSEC robot has been designed to extract, melt, and purify water from beneath the Martian surface. This robot operates in stages mounted on a turntable, drilling into the ice and using percussive motion to collect water.
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These methods represent the cutting-edge of technology in the quest to extract water from Mars soil, paving the way for future human exploration and settlement on the Red Planet. [^image1^]

Hellas on Mars may be more water friendly than our Moon is, I think.

As I have said as well, robot trees will not need that much water. If the robot system does have some water though, things can be done like pyrolysis of dust using Hydrogen extracted from water. This will create more water and leave some excess Oxygen which might be useful to humans.

Robot Trees could also create greenhouse gasses as they would have energy, CO2, and small amounts of water.

So, over time the collection of dust and the converting it to solid structure, may alter the climate of Mars. Adn the use of lasers to distribute power to and from orbit will be more and more possible. The transfer of power between trees might also be useful.

Keep in mind that these lasers would send with a particular frequency to solar cells that are efficient at collecting the energy.

https://exlumina.space/
Quote:

Powering the Final Frontier
Exlumina’s EVERLIGHT delivers wireless laser power to satellites and spacecraft, enabling longer missions, lower costs, and sustainable exploration in LEO, lunar, and deep-space environments.

Now, I said that only small amounts of water could be collected. But water recycling is very tight on the space station, and probably on Mars it can be tightened even more.

So, if you crack the water problem, then you have the Hellas Basin which has superior radiation protection and might afford landing of Starships better.

Granted, you might struggle to refill Starships from the water available, but if you are delivering Starships as shelters, then Hellas may be a very good place to do that.

There are some glaciers in Hellas, it seems and perhaps a Starship could be refilled enough to jump over to one after it delivered a cargo. Then it could be fully refilled from that glacier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Planitia
Quote:

Hellas Planitia /ˈhɛləs pləˈnɪʃiə/ is a plain located within the huge, roughly circular impact basin Hellas[a] located in the southern hemisphere of the planet Mars.[3] Hellas is the fourth- or fifth-largest known impact crater in the Solar System. The basin floor is about 7,152 m (23,465 ft) deep, 3,000 m (9,800 ft) deeper than the Moon's South Pole-Aitken basin, and extends about 2,300 km (1,400 mi) east to west.[4][5] It is centered at 42.4°S 70.5°E.[3] It features the lowest point on Mars,[6] serves as a known source of global dust storms, and may have contained lakes and glaciers.[7] Hellas Planitia spans the boundary between the Hellas quadrangle and the Noachis quadrangle.

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Glaciers Tell A Story Of Ancient Mars
The Hellas basin on Mars is a complex region with a rich history of glacial activity. Recent research has revealed that glaciers and glacial runoff played a significant role in sculpting the landscape of Hellas over the last three billion years. The study, authored by PSI senior scientist Alan Howard and research scientist Alexander Morgan, highlights the dramatic features in the Hellas basin, particularly around Batson crater, which were previously thought to hint at a history of decaying glaciers. The research suggests that during warmer periods, meltwater may have carved the landscape instead of glaciers. The study underscores the complexity of Martian landscapes during the more recent cold, dry period, with large glaciers having a significant role in sculpting the terrain.
Wikipedia
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Ending Pending

Of course, human and robot activity would not be only in the Hellas area, but it could be a pressure point of importance in the effort to make Mars more suitable to human intentions.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-19 10:41:14)

Void · 2025-10-20 09:07:55

What I have in mind as a possibility is a solar device that also shades a patch of soil behind it so that it will be colder than normal.

I had thought of a tetrahedron shape but now am thinking of a sort of "Open Book" structure. As if you had opened a book, perhaps to 90 degrees and set it on end on a flat surface.

I will try to show an illustration of my intentions:

The device may have to deal with dust accumulations and also seasonal CO2 frost accumulations. So, vertical has some advantages.

The Shadow provided behind it can be heavily salted so that the cold spot provided by the shade can, I hope accumulate moisture.

It is intended that a "Forest" of these devices will be attended by mobile robots that will dust them off and also collect dust accumulations and also have the ability to "Vacuum Microwave" the soil in the shade to collect water vapor to condense into collected water or ice.

The collected dust could be processed into useful objects using heating/pyrolysis in the presence of Hydrogen. This should allow the creation of water by reducing the Iron in the dust. The water can then be split again. As I understand it this process should accumulate more Hydrogen than what is placed into the process.

Possibly the Iron and other substances can be extracted. In the end the idea is to collect dust in Hellas and convert it into "Not Dust". This may help to change the climate of Mars.

A robot-based community would act like a Von Neuman Machine, expanding its reach.

The intention is to dispense with the severe global dust storms on Mars and to moderate them to be less of a problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine
Quote:

Self-replicating machine, a class of machines that can replicate themselves
Universal constructor (disambiguation)
Von Neumann probes, hypothetical space probes capable of self-replication
Nanorobots, capable of self-replication

So, the machine would be more of a collection of robots, some of them stationary solar wind breaks and the others attending to them. And then there would need to be construction robots that would build more stationary and mobile robots.

This of course could be done in the Northern Hemisphere as well, but Hellas is where the global dust storms seem to start up.

Where Mars does not seem to have the ability to dispose of fine dust, we would provide a means for its elimination.

The shaded salt beds would be created by extracting salts from soils that are being processed into more robots.

The deeper thickness of atmosphere may help to protect the robots from radiation, but to some extent their "Brains" could also be shielded with regolith in some manner as well.

I am not certain, but I suspect that it may come to be that enough water might be collected that human life could be supported within the robot community.

Perhaps enough water would be available to support Starships to land and refill.

If not then I suggest trying to make a rocket engine that can run on CO and O2. My guess is that it will be possible to find a way to refuel with Methane though.

Hellas would be perhaps the best place to land Starships on Mars.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-20 20:59:42)

Void · 2025-10-20 20:25:51

I think it is reasonable to presume that the human race on Earth will be embedded in swarms of robots. This may be a blessing, or they may end up killing us off, or maybe some of both. It is likely that some humans will live to see whatever is going to happen.

Similarly for other worlds, swarms of robots seem likely to me to emerge. If it turns out that robot swarms are compatible with humans, then they may make it more possible for humans to prosper on other worlds like the Moon, Mars, or significant asteroids.

I would say that such robots have to become very robust to survive these environments, but I think it is in the area of possible to try to make such a collection/swarm of machines.

Keep in mind that in the case of Hellas, if you could also evaporate all of the CO2 that is solid, but not necessarily melt or evaporate all of the water ice, you could increase the air pressure of Hellas more than 2x or very optimistically 2.5x. So currently maximum pressure is ~11.5 millibars. So, >~23 millibars and very optimistically >~28.75 millibars. I use > because the air column will compress, so the ultimate maximum pressure could be > 2x or optimistically >2.5x.

I think that this would afford the robots a great deal more radiation protection than what is now available and the Hellas already offers the best conditions on the Mars surface.

The pressure being higher, then the temperatures will likely tend to be higher.

I have read that under those conditions real snowfalls might be possible, and even temporary melt water streams. If so, then the basin might be a suitable place to refill Starships and to land them. Otherwise, it may be that there may be aquifers with brine. There may also be convenient glacier deposits.

One thing that is nice about Methane on Mars, is that you could pipe it around, and get it to Starships that way, and you can also react it with Oxygen to get more water as well. Where piping water or Hydrogen would be inconvenient, Methane would be quite convenient, provided you have the infrastructure of robotics to build pipelines.

Power beamed from orbit may at times be helpful, and also it may be that power may be beamed up from Hellas to orbit. This is a good reason to want to control the dust.

As for the structure of the book shaped 90-degree solar collectors, I am hoping that the foundations can be made firm and the main structure be made of compressed blocks of Mars soil.
https://www.sciencealert.com/it-turns-o … n-concrete
Quote:

Martian Soil Can Be Compressed Into Bricks Stronger Than Concrete
Space
28 April 2017
ByPETER FARQUHAR, BUSINESS INSIDER

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The ability to turn Martian soil into bricks without the need for traditional brick-making methods is a significant advancement for future Mars colonization. The process involves compressing Martian soil simulant under high pressure, which effectively binds the soil particles together, resulting in bricks that are stronger than steel-reinforced concrete. This method eliminates the need for additional ingredients or baking, making it a practical solution for constructing structures on Mars. The discovery of this technique is a testament to the innovative thinking of scientists and engineers who are working towards sustainable and efficient space exploration and settlement.
ScienceAlert
+5

While one function of these devices would be to serve as dust collecting wind fences, of course also the hope is to mount solar panels on them as well.

Further, if this device is to be considered a sort of stationary robot, the small amount of computer brains it needs can be hosted behind the "V" of the device in the shadow, where much solar radiation will be blocked, also some GCR would be somewhat blocked as well.

I will show the diagram again:

By texturing the land in this manner, you greatly increase the surface area that sunlight touches and also expand the amount of surface that infrared can be emitted from into space. So, I anticipate that this may alter the way the Hellas Basin heats up in summer when global dust storms could be triggered. The solar "Books" may act like heat exchanger fins and change that relationship.

To some extent if we are converting some of the sunlight to electricity, we reduce the heating during the day. But the solar panels may tend to retain heat as well. But the brick walls will store heat during the day and release it throughout all the hours of the Mars Day/night cycle.

It maybe that this will reduce the trigger for a Global Dust Storm. But the wind fence effect will also help.

The stationary solar robots might be made very robust to survive the harsh winters. More sensitive robots might go underground where they might be protected. Perhaps part of the power grid would be nuclear fission and perhaps power could be beamed down from orbit in the winter.

Anyway, I see this as a possible contribution to a whole list of tools to terraform Mars with.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-20 21:08:09)

Void · 2025-10-22 09:12:41

while in the previous post I tried to establish some notion of a robot settlement in Hellas, now I want to try to do similar for the polar areas.

Eventually it might be possible to do the actual poles but perhaps at first the edges would make more sense. Somewhere where a significant ice layer exists where tunnels and vaults could be dug into the ice.

Quite often the polar ice caps of Mars are dismissed as impossible due to cold. But then people will talk about going to Ceres and Callisto. It really does not make sense.

https://marsed.asu.edu/mep/ice/polar-caps
Quote:

About 290 K (62 °F, 17 °C)
The summer temperatures at the polar ice caps of Mars can reach about 290 K (62 °F, 17 °C) during the daytime. However, the polar regions experience extreme cold, with temperatures dropping to around -150° C (about -238° F) during winter. The polar ice caps are primarily composed of water ice and carbon dioxide, which can change size and composition throughout the seasons.

https://exactlyhowlong.com/how-long-is- … s-and-why/
It needs to be remembered that the year on Mars is Quote:

Approximately 687 Earth days
A Mars year is approximately 687 Earth days long. This duration is nearly twice as long as a year on Earth, which is about 365 days.
ExactlyHowLong.com
+3

So, the span between the equinoxes is ~11.45 Earth Months, since the year is about 22.9 Earth Months.

So, my thinking is that for 1/4?, 1/3?, 1/2? of the year robots that are sufficiently hardened might work on the surface of Mars.

The rest of the year they will need to be underground/under-ice working or hibernating.

The case for Nuclear in that situation is very large actually.

I believe that batteries are being made that may work well at -20 degrees C, so ice tunnels may be perfectly good for robots in the winter.

Should they have nuclear power available they could be involved in creating products including Methane perhaps to pipe around the planet. In this case Methane leaks would be regarded as to some degree desirable.

The volume of the Martian ice caps:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps
Quote:

Approximately 1.6 million cubic kilometers
The volume of the Martian ice caps is estimated to be approximately 1.6 million cubic kilometers for the northern polar cap and about 800,000 cubic kilometers for the southern polar cap. These ice caps consist primarily of water ice, with some dry ice present in the southern cap.
Wi

So, if 10% of the ice caps were carved out (Melted/Evaporated), then that would be 160,000 cubic kilometers of void space.

Some large amount of that could be pressurized actually to hold reserves of Oxygen and Methane perhaps.

Anyway, personal business, so I will continue later.

Pause......

The effort to figure out how to live inside of ice masses is going to be very important. Ice masses on Mars and even further out and even Mercury, if the deposits turn out to be "Slabs" of ice.

And it seems that there are very large "Slabs" of ice in the "Temperate" zones of Mars and even massive deposits buried near the Equator.

While it seems reasonable to me that robots might do well in sub-zero ice caves, humans of course would like to be warmer. But Nuclear and heat pumps should make both very possible.

The practice of having Methane pipelines to circulate Hydrogen on Mars will lead to leakage that will help to terraform the planet.

As far as the ~10% of the ice mass that might be converted to Voids, I suggest the making of lakes and seas with coverings to support biological activities.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-22 11:11:34)

Void · 2025-10-22 15:40:30

From the just previous post:

So, if 10% of the ice caps were carved out (Melted/Evaporated), then that would be 160,000 cubic kilometers of void space.
Some large amount of that could be pressurized actually to hold reserves of Oxygen and Methane perhaps.

So, I suggested that these chambers would be mostly cold perhaps -20 degrees C, maybe a bit warmer.

But what if humans appropriated 1% of that for warmer quarters? So then 1,600 cubic kilometers of warm spaces.

That is a lot of space, even if the minority of ice cave structures.

Probably these could be something like skyscrapers inside of an ice cave, the ice cave being well reenforced against cave-ins. A heat pumping process could make sure that the heat in the ice cave were pulled back into the building as it leaked out.

If the heat built up to be too much it could be used to melt more ice cave space.

These places may seem dreary, but actually if we had several sources of energy, there could be green gardens in the buildings.

I feel that various spaces of Mars/Phobos/Deimos/Asteroids would be under development at similar times.

So energy for a polar cap could come from:
1) Nuclear Fission.
2) Summertime Surface Solar.
3) Orbital Space projected to the ice caps.
4) Perhaps Fusion power.

Some ice caves might be filled with Oxygen, some with Methane, robots could operate in either or in those that might be filled with Mars atmosphere. The storage of liquid forms would also be possible but maybe a bit more difficult.

So, what would become of the water that was meted or evaporated out of the ice caves?

Some would be used in the creation of Methane and Oxygen to fill the ice caves.

Some could be transported to fill a expanse of lakes and small seas.

If they had salts in them from the soils then perhaps Uranium would be in dissolved form in the water and could be extracted for energy.

Also some Methane would be exported from the Ice caps planetwide. And likely perhaps also Oxygen.

In orbit of Mars at the same time could be spin gravity habitats that could be from 1/6th to 1 g in force and would have very nice Earth simulations.

What Phobos and Deimos might lack for building these could be supplied from Asteroids or if necessary, from Mars itself.

So, this world would not be one where you spent your entire life underground or under-ice on in the Under-Mars, but also could at times live in the sky.

If the inhabitants later on wanted to melt the ice caps as many have expressed a desire for, I guess they will do so. That will be their business. However, I don't think that is needed or desired.

But that is just my tastes in the matter.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-22 15:55:35)

Void · 2025-10-23 08:15:46

It is obvious that due to the nature of Mars and much of the solar systems reality that robots that can deal with cold, at least some cold are going to be wanted.

The zones between the poles and equator of Mars have many situations of thick slabs of ice under some layer of regolith overburden.

The scale of some of these slabs is rather large: https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news … ion-images Image Quote: Scarp_ESP_022389_1230_50cmpix_scalebarFINAL.png?itok=uuUaXXj2
Quote:

For the first time, high-resolution images show the three-dimensional structure of massive ice deposits on Mars. According to an in-depth analysis led by the USGS, the images reveal never-before-observed details about the ice sheets, including that some begin just a few feet below the Martian surface and extend to depths greater than 300 feet.

Some of these ice slabs extend at least halfway to the Equator, so solar energy will be a bit like Kansas, I think. That is, there will be come solar energy year around barring serious dust storms.

This map give some idea of relatively shallow ice: https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/nasas … e-on-mars/
Image Quote:
Quote:

This rainbow-colored map shows underground water ice on Mars. Cool colors are closer to the surface than warm colors; black zones indicate areas where a spacecraft would sink into fine dust; the outlined box represents the ideal region to send astronauts for them to dig up water ice.
Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech/ASU

I think that it is notable that the deeper buried deposits extend into the southern edge of the Hellas Depression. (Towards the bottom left).

I believe that the map is for deposits that SpaceX could use to refill Starship. It does not show deposits that may be closer to the Equator and perhaps buried under more regolith.

It does not show the deposit in Candor Chaos of the Rift Valley: https://www.space.com/mars-water-below- … ris-canyon Quote:

Water ice may be lurking just a few feet below the Martian surface at one of the Red Planet's most dramatic sites.
That's according to new research based on data gathered by the Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO), part of the ExoMars mission operated by the European Space Agency (ESA) and its Russian counterpart, Roscosmos. ExoMars includes both TGO, which launched in 2016, and the Rosalind Franklin rover due to launch to Mars next year. Among the instruments aboard TGO is one called the Fine Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector (FREND), which can detect hydrogen, one of the two elements that make up water. New analyses of FREND's data show high levels of hydrogen at a site called Candor Chaos, located near the heart of the massive canyon system dubbed Valles Marineris.
"We found a central part of Valles Marineris to be packed full of water — far more water than we expected," Alexey Malakhov, a senior scientist at the Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences and a co-author of the new paper, said in an ESA statement. "This is very much like Earth's permafrost regions, where water ice permanently persists under dry soil because of the constant low temperatures."

The size of that deposit is about that of the Netherlands, I believe. For that reason, I suspect that Hellas may have more underground ice than is shown on the Map.

I think that there is a pattern of selective release of information. Authority prone types who we co-exist with in the USA, do for good or bad reasons, try to harness the energy of the population to make them servile. I believe that the legs of the space program are broken periodically to achieve this. Invention created by enthusiastic good intentions is then appropriated, and a government restart is done periodically. We may be experiencing such an event just now.

I am sure that there are quite a few who think that humans in space is of little or no value. And certainly, low level munchkins are not worthy. It is what we have to deal with though. Extreme specialists with limited awareness of the scope of realty seeking to enslave the generalists. Sometimes you catch the bus, and sometimes the bus catches you. (From a friend who has passed away).

Anyway a 300-foot-deep layer of ice will exert almost 1 bar of pressure on its base. Looking at the first picture in this post, we might speculate what lies below the ice? In some cases, is it Lava Flows, lose regolith, or sandstone?

We might want to find Sandstone.

So, if found then robots might exist in caves carved in ice. Humans and Robots might also exist in caves carved in sandstone deep below the ice.

Sandstone caves deep enough could be warm.

Sandstone blocks could be used for various purposes, such as floors for ice caves and supports for ice caves.

So, my hope is that this could be done in the Hellas Depression and perhaps in Candor Chaos in the rift valley.

This would be quite a lot of protection from the harsh reality of Mars.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-23 09:18:47)

Void · 2025-10-23 17:26:44

And I suppose over time there could be developed something like "Glass Domes" on Mars. But if you can do that, why can't you build "Glass Domes" in orbit? So, I guess that could become a choice.

I tend to take a conservative view of the potential of Phobos and Deimos.

Some people seem to get excited by the notion of Single Stage to Surface Point with a suborbital starship.

But for Mars and other worlds, SSTO and SSSP are both in the cards.

The potential connection of Mars surface to Orbit is much better than the one for Earth surface to Orbit. The idea that people might be locked into some sort of underground bunkers will likely not be true for Mars.

So, people will be able to "Vote" with their feet. If they want to be on the surface of Mars for some reason, they could. But if they may choose to be in orbit of Mars that is also an option.

If there is a need for human on Mars itself, it could be. But it might be perfectly possible in the future for a human in orbit to be virtually on the surface of Mars using telepresence and a avatar robot.

So, then as far as "Glass Domes" go, or rather pleasant places to live, whichever is easiest to build will attract the people. At this time my guess is that orbits of Mars may be more attractive.

But Mars as a source of raw materials and resources, could include humans on the planet directly or remote presence may do.

At a minimum the moons of Mars can provide various silicate materials with Oxygen. By lifting Hydrogen from Mars, water can be created. I am a bit optimistic that the moons will have some Carbon. If not it and Nitrogen could be lifted to orbit.

But all of this is likely to interconnect to asteroids, where many raw materials and resources can be obtained in my opinion.

I do not like the idea that many have from the 60's and 70's that the asteroids are too remote.

Thin mirrors and robots with solar panels or heat engines should make connections to asteroids practical.

Ending Pending

It is likely that we will soon find out if NASA and the government will play "Depowering Mother" or not.

Quote:

Copilot Search Branding
Images
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Overbearing, controlling, and manipulative towards her children
Devowering Mother
The Devouring Mother archetype is a psychological concept that describes a mother who is overbearing, controlling, and manipulative towards her children. This archetype is often associated with possessiveness and narcissism, and it can lead to a child's development being hampered and their autonomy being compromised. The Devouring Mother often treats independence as betrayal and sees her child not as an individual but as an extension of herself. This type of parenting can result in guilt, obligation, and emotional paralysis for the child.
Learning Mind
+1
To overcome the toxicity of the Devouring Mother archetype, it is important to reflect on one's relationship with a mother resembling this archetype and to seek self-nurturing practices. Setting boundaries and fostering healthier relationships is also crucial.

At the moment there is some amount of shadow. I have seen it before. The desire to "Eat the Profits". The lack of ability to defer consumption.

I hope that NASA does not turn again to cannibalism.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-23 17:43:27)

Void · 2025-10-23 18:43:16

So, then "Glass Bubbles" on Mars and "Glass Bubbles" in orbit are more or less Para-Terraforming. And they hold more promise of an Earth-Like existence than terraforming Mars as a whole.

And as SpaceShips can be SSTO on Mars, is it that wrong to suppose that you could make Liquid Methane on the surface of Mars, and bring it to orbit to react with the solid materials of Phobos and Deimos, to create H20 and CO2?

I feel that Martians may want to more be in orbit than on the surface of Mars, as their habitations can be part of a Spiral backbone of the solar system.

I have already mentioned this in another topic. Cycling Spaceships are interesting, but I want to explore Concentric Orbits with linking spirals.

Here I show 3 concentric orbits between Earth and Mars:

Without being insulting, I want to say that this is different than 60's and 70's thinking. In the Apollo age the idea was chemical to the Moon and Nuclear to Mars. Using the Hohmann Transfer method. This is not that.

They were stuck on the fact that in their time Electric Ion propulsion was not emergent, I believe, not very much. And it was the Atomic Age and the Space Age. Each sound impressive.

Space has been stuck on the idea that the sunlight thins out as you travel away from the sun. But with properly sized mirrors this can become only a little trouble as you make 5 steps Earth>Mars, at each you take on a larger sized mirror and leave your smaller one behind.

This then sizes your mirror mass more appropriately to the power needs. The power system the mirrors would feed is either Solar Panels or perhaps CO2 Supercritical heat engine.

I know that most people here feel that the solar panels are effeminate. Powerful always sounds masculine. "The Big Greed" Even women have it. But practical is more the desire take your fetishes elsewhere.

I do realize that the proper alignment of stopping points will repeat only occasionally if there is only one orbital station in a ring, so there would be many. Many of them would be simple warehouses inhabited by robots. Over time though they might build up into full habitations for humans.

Being able to trade mirrors is helpful, but we may want to move humans and a minority of cargo fast, but the bulk of cargo slow.

So the slow ships would be used to stock the orbital stations with propellants and parts. The fast ships would take on enough propellants to get to the next station (+Margin), and could travel faster as to be lighter. And of course they would exchange mirrors also.

Each ring might have multiple stations in it set apart from each other. Instead of 3 rings there could be 10 or 100 or 1000. Is there a limit?

It may be possible to communicate cargo to an from asteroids to some of these stations.

While an Argon/Xenon mix might be considered for propellants, Neumann Drive and Magdrive are expected to be able to use most conductive materials as propellants. This includes Iron, Aluminum, Silicon, Carbon, and more.

We may also anticipate a mass driver on a ship that shoots out Dry Ice pellets with some magnetic Iron in them.

Is solid Oxygen Paramagnetic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramagnetism
Quote:

Copilot Search Branding
Yes
Yes, solid oxygen is paramagnetic. This property arises from the presence of unpaired electrons in the oxygen molecule, which allows it to be attracted to an external magnetic field. In solid oxygen, the magnetic moments of the unpaired electrons align with the magnetic field, resulting in a net attraction.
Wikipedia
+2

More difficult than Dry Ice with Iron, perhaps, but if you can make Oxygen ice cubes of a correct size and shape you might be able to expell them from a ships mass driver to provide propulsion.

I would expect that between the orbits of Earth and Mars, both Dry Ice and Oxygen Ice Cubes when expelled from the ship will rapidly evaporate.

The point is you could get Oxygen from almost any asteroid or moon in the solar system.

So, a mining base at a NEA may be ablet to move materials to a convenient station in the circular concentric orbits.

Of course, if this works you would extend it towards and into the asteroid belts.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-23 19:30:38)

Void · Yesterday 10:09:29

So, in bringing asteroids into the concentric rings system, we can choose the small crumbs nearer us or go all the way out to about 3.0 AU.

So having a look at Bennu, again, a crumb near us: https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/4857

Image Quote:

https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/a … nnu/facts/
Quote:

The orbit of Bennu is characterized by the following details:
Bennu makes one orbit around the Sun approximately every 1.2 years (or 437 days).
2
Its orbital path is tilted about 5 degrees relative to Earth's orbit.
1
Bennu comes as close as 0.90 AU (about 84 million miles) and reaches as far as 1.36 AU from the Sun.
1
It makes a close approach to Earth every six years, coming within about 186,000 miles (299,000 kilometers) of our planet.
1
These characteristics highlight Bennu's unique orbital dynamics in our solar system.

As a source of supply to a station in a concentric ring, it may have possibility.

It is considered to be a hazard, but what if it were simply consumed to provide useful materials, and to eliminate the danger?

Ryugu is a similar object to some extent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/162173_Ryugu

It seems that there are lots of tiny asteroids that could not be detected before, so many like this may be available further out in the Asteroid Belt.

https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-astronome … -belt-1209
Quote:

The detection of small asteroids in the main asteroid belt has been a significant advancement in the field of astronomy. Researchers have identified 138 asteroids ranging from bus-sized to stadium-sized, using advanced techniques like "shift and stack" and data from NASA's James Webb Space Telescope (JWST). This discovery is crucial for tracking potential asteroid impactors and understanding the origin of meteorites. The study's lead author, Artem Burdanov, from MIT, emphasizes the importance of precise orbital tracking for planetary defense. The findings fill a knowledge gap for tracing the source of meteorites and larger potentially hazardous asteroids in Earth's vicinity.
MIT - Massachusetts Institute of Technology
+4

So, perhaps 40% of the inner asteroid belt asteroids are thought to be Carbonaceous.
https://www.universetoday.com/articles/ … d-belt-sun
Quote:

Between 2.1 and 3.3 astronomical units
The asteroid belt is located between 2.1 and 3.3 astronomical units (AU) from the Sun, which translates to approximately 329 million to 478.7 million kilometers (204.43 million to 297.45 million miles). This region lies between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter.
Universe Today
+2

So, a concentric rings method might reach from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and so then link Earth/Moon to a concentric ring's method.

Any small asteroids who cross paths, are possibly got places to get materials to a concentric rings station.

So, perhaps these will have enough materials along with those of Mars/Phobos/Deimos, to allow a concentric ring system to be resupplied effectively.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 10:29:32)

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