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#26 2025-08-26 16:36:41

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

For offtherock re post in Python ... https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p233855

Thanks for taking a look at the program!

I agree that most of the trends are toward object oriented programming.

My guess is that it helps to be introduced to object from the beginning, as you may well have been.

Actually, I didn't specify anything to Gemini. It simply created the program to my specifications for function, and used the standard Phthon patterns.  You had mentioned teaching Python, so I can well understand how you would be inclined toward object.

If you have a bit of free time and want to start a class in Python (with emphasis on object) I would be happy to help in whatever way I can. We have no one in the group at present who shows signs of being interested, but I am happy to bring in new members who might wish to take a class with your guidance.

(th)

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#27 2025-08-26 16:54:32

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

Nah i used to be for functional programming.
But slowly started to see how object programming really makes sense.
Especially in big systems.

It just needs to be introduced to people correctly.

I dont know what it means to start a class in python. Like, what that actually entails.
Hasn´t the class already started, we are already talking and learning.

Last edited by offtherock (2025-08-26 17:49:17)

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#28 2025-08-26 18:42:31

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

For offtherock re #27

I agree that object makes sense for big systems.

I would even think it makes sense for two people working on a project.

The idea of not having global variables may be separate from object programming.

The original programs (active when I was entering the work force) had ONLY global variables.  Gradually the idea of local vs global variables crept in.

Now I understand the preference is for no global variables at all, and passing values from procedure to procedure.

(th)

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#29 2025-08-27 07:36:15

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

For offtherock ...

We have members with a wide variety of backgrounds and interests.

I would like to suggest you investigate to see if Spaniard might have written posts that might be of interest.

The world view that Spaniard brings to the forum is similar in some respects to yours.

I would like to see how the two of you interact.

Louis is another (former) member whose writings you might enjoy reviewing.

(th)

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#30 2025-08-27 07:56:12

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

thanks i posted on one of his subjects.

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#31 2025-08-29 11:49:10

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

For offtherock re suggestion for a site to host images!

Thanks for that suggestion!  It is good to know of all such sites. 

I'm still testing the phpBB3 site. Here is a link to another of Dr. Johnson's images:

http://40.75.112.55/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=3

At the moment I am unable to serve the actual image in display mode.  If you read the conversation with Gemini, you'll see that there may be a way to serve the images directly by modifying the htaccess file to allow NewMars to pull the files.  Do you have any experience with htaccess?

(th)

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#32 2025-08-29 12:40:26

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

htaccess sounds like apache.
i abandoned apache a long time ago for nginx.
and did not regret that.

nginx has much more understandable configuration setup system.
and also, every request is served by creating only a thread, not an entire process like apache does.

So nginx is much better at dealing with sudden traffic peaks.

so.. no, havent dealt with htaccess apache configuration files for 15 years.
am still having nightmares about it.
almost.

Last edited by offtherock (2025-08-29 12:40:57)

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#33 2025-08-29 13:12:45

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

Hi offtherock!

Thanks for your comments about htaccess ... it is indeed part of the Apache system that Azure created for me back when we were working on a software upgrade for the forum.  The host at Mars Society runs Apache, so (of course) we needed to replicate their system. 

I'm glad to know there is an alternative web server to consider.

In the mean time, Apache is what we have. We can't change anything because we have other changes in the works for the forum, if we ever can find the time.  You may have noticed "Like button can go here" on every post.  That was a little marker we set while updating FluxBB from 2012 to 2024.  We didn't have time to do more than set that little marker. 

Now both kbd512 (webmaster) and I are too busy to do anything more.

(th)

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#34 2025-08-29 13:17:31

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

the server, how do u guys access it. do u ssh into it or what.

ssh is brilliant. by the way.

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#35 2025-08-29 13:33:42

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

There are two answers to your question ...

kbd512 uses ssh to log into the Mars Society server.

I use ssh to log into the test site on Azure.

We also use the file transfer version of that tool, but I can't remember the name of it.  I have to look it up every time I use it.

As a small detail, we use Dropbox as a staging location because Dropbox and the ssh file transfer utility play nicely together.

So I develop on my local machine, send to Dropbox, and kbd512 performs the transfers into the Mars Society server.

(th)

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#36 2025-08-30 05:08:04

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

I just wanna share some dreams.
Always dreaming.

The rpi5.
https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry … 2414431617

This cooling can be used only passively as well.
https://thepihut.com/products/argon-thr … berry-pi-5
Better to turn the computer on the side with this for the ventilation is horizontal.
Which fits when i think about it for the rpi is.. horizontal.

And with 2x500gb ssd. Good for backup making.
https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/nvme … 4434961491

Then by catting all the files into one big file, and then obfuscating it using this library i found.
Can all be done by just running a bash function.
Makes the response time of the website, super fast.
Plus low load on the server, for that same reason.

Then there is some possibility of Poe, power over ethernet.
Then the lan cable would be power as well.
Meaning, super clean setup.
Only one cable, lan cable.
Except for the one from the backup battery.
And thats just a cable for one of the rpi's for its just an information cable.
But there are some complexities involved with poe and im not sure if its worth it.

Then theres more but enough about that for now.


Yeah let me know if I can help.

Last edited by offtherock (2025-08-30 05:23:21)

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#37 2025-08-30 13:27:49

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

For offtherock re question fo GW Johnson...

Your question is ** very ** interesting, but I will invite others than Dr. Johnson to try to answer.

Dr. Johnson is an "aerospace" engineer, and not one who specializes in materials, except as he has reported in specific contexts.

You have the opportunity to create an educational topic on materials for structures like rocket tanks, if that would be of any interest to you.

To my knowledge this form does not have a materials engineer in the membership.  If there is a reader "out there" who would be interested in helping with offtherock's question, please see the Recruiting topic for procedure.

The capabilities of 3D Printing are at their very earliest stage of evolution. Ultimately nanotechnology is where 3D printing will end up.

The field of nanotechnology is advancing rapidly on multiple fronts.

(th)

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#38 2025-08-30 13:56:37

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

tahanson43206 wrote:

You have the opportunity to create an educational topic on materials for structures like rocket tanks, if that would be of any interest to you.
(th)

How would I go about doing that?

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#39 2025-08-30 14:03:42

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

tahanson43206 wrote:

Here is a link to another of Dr. Johnson's images:
http://40.75.112.55/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=3

At the moment I am unable to serve the actual image in display mode.  If you read the conversation with Gemini, you'll see that there may be a way to serve the images directly by modifying the htaccess file to allow NewMars to pull the files.  Do you have any experience with htaccess?
(th)

Where is the conversation with Gemini?

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#40 2025-08-30 16:43:41

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

Hi Offtherock !!! Thanks for reminding me to put the link inot a post like that one...

Here is the post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 45#p233945

I was reporting to SpaceNut on my efforts to solve the image display problem, and forgot to show you the link to that report.

(th)

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#41 2025-08-30 17:55:23

SpaceNut
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Re: offtherock postings

Offtherock, tahanson43206 has direct server placement control or upload to it so it is hosted on it and then can be linked for image display.

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#42 2025-09-21 08:07:55

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

For offtherock...

Nice to see your post today: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 39#p234439

Hiring people for a suicide mission is a possibility.

Some human cultures have an easier time with that idea than others.

In the past, when small bands or even just individuals ventured away from home to spread out across the globe, it seems to me that they took small steps each day, and made sure they had food supplies before they ventured further.

The Magellan expedition depended upon restock when they crossed the open ocean. In fact, on the Pacific stretch, which lasted far longer than they had planned, many died because their supplies ran out, and they didn't know how to deal with scurvy.

I think that ethics is a factor that will influence which cultures venture to Mars on a suicide mission, and which do not.

My sense of the US culture is that the majority would not support a suicide mission.

My impression is that there are cultures on Earth today which would have no problem with it, if national goals are achieved.

Since the Chinese are likely to be players in the Mars venture, it will be interesting to see how they handle the question.  From what I have seen so far, they appear to be taking great care of their Taikonauts.  I don't recall any of them being lost to this point.

My guess is that the Chinese will plan their expeditions so that everyone returns safely.

Follow up:

Conversation with Gemini

Hi Gemini! Thank you for your assistance with many previous requests. Hopefully this will be an easy one. It is my impression that the Chinese have lost no (zero) taikonauts even thought they have a vigorous space program. Can you confirm that?

***

You are correct. China's manned space program has a remarkable safety record. Since its first crewed mission in 2003, there have been no reported fatalities or injuries to any taikonauts (the term for Chinese astronauts) during spaceflight or training.

While there have been fatal accidents in China's overall space program, these have involved uncrewed rockets or ground-based incidents, not taikonauts.

The Chinese space program has placed a high priority on astronaut safety, which has been evident in its methodical approach and the successful track record of its crewed missions.

(th)

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#43 2025-09-21 08:16:08

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

I don´t agree with calling it a suicide mission.
Its not a suicide mission.
Dangerous.. yes.

Effective.. yes.

There will be others following.
And the base will be growing leaps and bounds.

Its not a suicide mission its a different way of thinking mission.
With effectiveness going through the roof.

Its just that people are so stuck with the idea that the only way to exist is on Earth.
But thats just because Earth is the only place we know so far.
That will start to change once we are there.

We´re probably gonna loose more lives if we are always sending them back to Earth.
Especially once we factor everything in.

Last edited by offtherock (2025-09-21 09:18:51)

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#44 2025-09-21 14:24:59

SpaceNut
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Re: offtherock postings

Its not the first time others have made this label to a oneway plan but it requires a desire to stay and remain for the propose of digging in from mission 1 permanently rather than going back.

Here it is, enjoy reading
One man one way suicide mission

Mission One: a one way ticket to Mars?

of course we are also talking about

The "newmars toehold mission" is a concept frequently discussed in the New Mars Forums, an online community dedicated to the human exploration and settlement of Mars. It is not a formal mission by a space agency like NASA, but rather a theoretical approach to the initial crewed landing on Mars, intended to establish a basic, self-sufficient human presence.
Key features of a newmars toehold mission, based on the forums, include:
Minimalist crew and hardware. The idea prioritizes minimizing the crew size and the amount of payload mass sent from Earth to reduce launch costs and complexity.
In-situ resource utilization (ISRU). A central component is "living off the land" by using Martian resources to produce consumables and rocket fuel. The mission would rely on pre-landed robotic rovers to scout and process local resources, such as water ice.
Contingency philosophy. Unlike missions that plan for a full return-mission contingency, the "toehold" approach suggests that astronauts should train rigorously and be prepared to rely on the pre-landed habitat. The cost of a full, Earth-based solution for all possible contingency scenarios is considered economically unfeasible.
Pre-positioned cargo. Before the crew arrives, robotic missions would launch and land habitats, power systems, and supplies at the designated landing site. This would ensure the basic infrastructure is in place and functioning before humans are committed to the long journey.
Incremental settlement. The "toehold" is viewed as the first step toward a more permanent settlement. The mission is a stepping stone that demonstrates the feasibility of self-sufficiency, which is necessary for long-term growth on Mars without constant resupply from Earth.
Origin and context
The concept is similar in philosophy to "Mars Direct," a plan developed by Robert Zubrin in the 1990s and discussed on the New Mars forums. Both concepts focus on self-sufficiency and resource utilization as a way to make crewed Mars missions economically viable. The "newmars toehold mission" specifically emphasizes taking the bare minimum for the initial human arrival to get the "first foot in the door".

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#45 2025-09-22 07:09:38

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

For offtherock re post in 3D Printers....

Thanks for your comments on cost of 3D Printer filament

While I agree that it would be great if filament cost less, I have practical experience to offer as a guide.

We live in a capitalist system.

Multiple vendors offer identical products, and consumers are able to choose between the vendors.

I generally buy the most expensive product I can afford, and 3D printing filament is a good example.

3D Printing filament requires a very expensive manufacturing process.  I tried a less expensive brand, and it failed to perform at the level expected.

That reel of filament was a waste of my investment.

You are free to buy less expensive filament, as are all consumers.

However, chances are you will buy filament that works, and you will gladly pay whatever the price might be, knowing that the marketplace is highly competitive.

***
Regarding the output of the printer ... there is no way to identify the printer or the filament when you look at a 3D printed object.

3D Printer makers generally do NOT also make filament.  The expertise required is too different for specialization in a capitalist system to support the two product lines in the same house.  Locally we have a filament maker who started out making 3D Printers, and found the filament line to be more financially rewarding.  They went for the high end, ultra reliable filament, and have been rewarded by the marketplace.

In short, cheap filament is available, and you get what you pay for.

All that said, thanks for contributing to the collection of posts about 3D printing. 

When you are ready, please choose some aspect of the Mars venture that you want to concentrate on, and start building a topic that is devoted to that interest.  You can see many examples of how others have done that over 20+ years.

(th)

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#46 2025-09-22 07:41:34

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

That kinda explains why 3d printing hasn't really taken off.

There isn't this one entity that is taking this concept forward to become great.
Instead, its many small actors, each just thinking about how to make money within the system already provided to them.

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#47 2025-09-22 09:31:00

tahanson43206
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Re: offtherock postings

For offtherock re musings about capitalism....

It sounds as though you understand part of how capitalism works, but i also get the impression you have never attempted to set up a business to produce a product.  Persons with the kind of doubts you've shown us would never be able to find backers for risky ventures.  It takes unbelievable courage, confidence and sheer competence to assemble all the elements of a successful business.

However, that is not to deny that employees of a large corporation might dedicate themselves to trying to maximize profit over some short term. That seems to be what happened to Boeing when the original founding engineers sold the company, and profit oriented business school graduates tried to milk what appeared to be a cash cow, failing to understand what made the company great in the first place.

The company and it's share holders have paid dearly for the mistake, and it will be decades if ever before they return to excellence.

(th)

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#48 2025-09-22 09:38:57

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

how is the business model around 3d printing supposed to work anyways.

couldnt a perfect 3d printer just 3dprint itself.

and where would that lead the producer.

ill tell u where it would lead him.. nowhere.

where is the money supposed to appear, for the producer.

i dont know.

currently i think they are using the filament.
and its not taking off.

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#49 2025-09-22 10:45:38

offtherock
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Re: offtherock postings

And why cant paper printers just print em papers by burning the paper slightly.
There, an inkless printer.
How useful is that.

Printers would be a lot more useful if their material would be readily available around the world.

Maybe sand.
If a printer could take 1 gram of sand.
Melt it a tiny bit.
and place it.
in 3d.

repeat... 1000 times and u have some glass sculpture.

and regarding boeing.
i always think of airbus,
when they had made the a380,
and didnt make it easy for airport to edit their ports to accommodate for the a380.
that was a fatal mistake that to me seemed like they didnt quite understand the importance of the feedback loop.

nobody is going to buy a plane that cant land anywhere.
or just, in a few select locations.

and no airport is going to bother spending tons of money being able to adopt an airplane,
that might not have any future anyways.

if they had made it a no brainer for the big airports of the world to acommodate it.
its usefulness would have increased and they would have started seeing more sales.

which would make an argument for even more airports acommodating it.
and the feedback loop starts.

its always always always.
about the feedback loop.

life is nothing but a giant feedback loop.
be it up or down.

Last edited by offtherock (2025-09-22 11:47:24)

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#50 2025-09-22 14:01:11

SpaceNut
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Re: offtherock postings

Thermal printers are different from normal ink printers just as a 3d printer is for plastics versus metals. All these printer types only output what has been sent from a computers detail file as they do nothing alone without this input to them.
Self replication is sort of like life in that the genetic coded computer in the cell directs the instructions required to make another and in it contains all of the other instructions to make the cells all diferent.
So that means being able to code with the atom what needs to be given next in the self replication process knowing what atom comes next in the self replication process until finished.

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