Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

Void · 2024-11-09 11:19:51

This would be an interesting planet: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … af58&ei=14

Quote: Ateam of researchers believes they have found the most convincing evidence to date for the existence of a hidden planet, which may be Planet Nine. According to a recent study, this planet, possibly located in the Kuiper Belt, is small, with a mass between 1.5 and 3 times that of Earth. "It could be an icy, rocky Earth, or a super-Pluto. Due to its large mass, it would have a great internal energy that could sustain, for example, subsurface oceans. Its orbit would be very distant, much beyond Neptune, and much more inclined compared to the known planets," Patryk Sofia Lykawka, associate professor of Planetary Sciences at Kindai University in Japan and co-author of the study, said according to El Tiempo.

Anything would be fun, but this might be a bit of a "Super Earth". I have been thinking of ice planets where the density of the planet may be so low that in spite of a large size the gravity on the surface might be close to that of Earth. But of course we would have to take it as it comes. I hope it has moons.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-09 11:22:22)

Void · 2025-08-14 09:09:53

There are a few topics with the word Rogue in their name.

Here is the latest gift from Isaac Arthur: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU7h53_ … saacArthur
Quote:

Colonizing Rogue Planets
Isaac Arthur
820K subscribers

I myself have pondered these things. One thing I have tried to imagine is what might happen if one of our planets were tossed out as a rogue planet. Most rogues are likely born early in a planet generating process either interstellar or stellar. But by thinking making one of our planets rogue, we at least have some anchor in that we know to some degree now what these worlds are like now.

I am going to make a case that I think that plate tectonics might emerge on the terrestrials, particularly Venus and of course it exists on Earth.

Since it already exists on Earth, then I will start with Earth cast out into the void. I will not dwell on the fate of humans who may have come into existence on this Earth-like world, rather I will be interested in seeing what it might be like to be on the outside looking in and then to settle the world.

It is not certain how much of a Hydrogen/Helium atmosphere could exist. I will say some. Ideally not too much. Lets be generous and say 1 bar.

I will then argue for uphill flowing tectonic glaciers which would be in opposition to downward flowing gravitational glaciers.

If we think of planets from type 1 Stars radioactive materials will have been distributed to the planets. Type 3 Stars early on would not have much of that to give.

OK, the Earth it tossed out. Its atmosphere freezes to Nitrogen, Oxygen, and Argon solids and liquids for the most part.

Since the Earth's atmosphere is 1 bar pressure, if it were water vapor instead of Nitrogen, Oxygen, and Argon, the depth would be about (very loosely), 32 feet thickness over the entire surface. But if Hydrogen and Helium flow from the void as a replacement atmosphere, it may be that electrostatic sparks will cause burns and explosions to burn the Oxygen to water.

On Pluto, I understand that Nitrogen might flow like Toothpaste. But we don't know if it will be as warm as Pluto is, probably over time it will get colder.

I am expecting plate tectonics to keep running on this world. In fact perhaps even faster, as the surface will be colder so the convective forces will be greater. So solid ices and pasty textured pseudo solids may be dragged uphill by ocean spreading. Gravitation will encourage the solids and pasty substances to flow downhill. So there would be a contest.

So, then this brings us to the oceans of salt water. Along the shorelines ice would be dragged uphill as it froze to the shoreline. But again gravity would encourage it to glaciate downhill.

We can expect that the exposed seafloor spreading such as Iceland will allow lava flows above any ice covered fluids and very likely above any glaciers. It would be very hard for ices and fluids to flow uphill onto Iceland, as the sea floor is going to drag them away from the splits, and gravity will encourage ices and fluids to flow downhill.

So, we can expect for this modified Earth that exposed geothermal energy will be available to settlers.

The Seafloor could be more and more exposed as ice is dragged upward onto the spreading seafloor. This would expose the geothermal spreading areas unless a fluid could cover them again. Nitrogen or Argon might do that. But there are limited amounts of them, and several basins might collect them and render the immobile. Also on the spreading area of the seafloor are many seamounts, and it would be very difficult for the Nitrogen, Argon, Water Ice, or Liquid Water to flow upwards against gravity. So, we can have hopes of exposed geothermal rock. This should be favorable for humans or aliens to utilize for simple energy, and protection from the cold of the Universe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics
Image Quote:

If I am not mistaken the Samali Plate would have an elevated area in Africa which would likely be exposed geothermal rock.

But on the other side of plate tectonics where one plate slides under the other, if ices behave like continental crust, then bodies of water warmed by geothermal heat should occur.

And this also could cause vast floods of water from time to time if an earthquake were to rupture an ice dam. So you might not want to build your settlements too low in an ocean bed as they might become suddenly flooded. A high location in Iceland or Africa might be most suitable.

It is my expectation that the radioactive decay engine of the Earth would be periodically refueled if it were a rogue planet: https://www.space.com/earth-dense-inter … ction-lost
Quote:

An interstellar cloud may have caused an ice age on Earth. Here's how
News
By Robert Lea published June 11, 2024
An encounter with a cold cloud of gas and dust could have caused our planet's "protective giant bubble" to draw back.

So, radioactive materials from dust clouds in interstellar space may rain down fresh materials which may be subducted into the insides of the Rogue Earth, refueling it's engines.

So, a Rogue Earth, might be very useful to a technological civilization, I feel.

And of course then there if Fusion. Probably any gasses that could remain as an atmosphere on such a world will have and collect more of fusion suitable fuels.

I will discuss Venus next I believe. I think Venus cast out into the void would become much like a Rogue Earth.

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Last edited by Void (2025-08-14 09:53:25)

Void · 2025-08-15 07:15:39

So, then Venus as a rogue planet is interesting. Some people think that Venus had an Earth-like period, but others say it had such a hot start that it never condensed a water ocean.

The reason for a hot start was the suns gravity well, adding much more energy to impactors than it did for Earth.

I will argue that an ejected Venus might come to resemble an ejected Earth to some extent over time due to the infall of Hydrogen, and dust. Venus eventually being similar to the description I gave in the previous post would have 90% of less gravity than Earth. I say that because the proto-Venus might have been ejected before it reached its current mass.
So, for instance a Venus the size of Mars would have a gravity field of 33% that of Earth but our Venus would be 90% the gravity of Earth.

Elon Musk has said that the Earth is almost too massive for rocket technology to send mass into space. So, a hotter sub-Earth sized world might be rather valuable as a Rogue Planet.

We don't know for sure what Venus was like as young. But if ejected now, we could expect a CO2 Ocean to cover much of the planet. That ocean would likely freeze, as I think unlike water ice CO2 ice will not float. (I think).

And then the Nitrogen would similarly condense and pool before freezing.

It is not known for sure if Venus has tectonic activity at this time. This article suggest that it might.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-mag … -on-venus/

It is my expectation that when the cold of the universe cools off the crust and overlying CO2 and N2 materials, some greater convection will occur. But any crust spreading may be under CO2 or N2 deposits or may be directly exposed uncovered rock on the surface.

Over time it is expected that Hydrogen, Helium, and dust will accumulate from clouds that the Rogue Venus might drift though. I would expect the Hydrogen to permeate into the CO2 layer and over time react with it to produce water and hydrocarbons. So, the crust would eventually become lubricated by the liquids produced that way. This would help plate tectonics to continue. The radioactive materials in the accumulating dust would be subducted into the interior to help keep Venus warm inside.

I believe that it thought by some that planets the size of Mars or larger could become Steppenwolf planets. So, Venus might begin to accumulate a Hydrogen and Helium atmosphere.

Some have even argued that such a world could host seas of water even maybe open water, as a think Hydrogen atmosphere might allow the geothermal heat to be held in.

In that case I would expect that the N2 would reinflate under the Hydrogen layer. Then what about the CO2?

I think a rogue that warm would be a problem for humans as the atmospheric pressure would be too high. But it would be relatively easy to expel much of the H2 with nuclear bombs in the upper atmosphere, I think. But it would be better to catch a Rogue Venus before it developed such a thick atmosphere. But an atmosphere of 1/4 to 10 bars might be useful and relatively easy to adapt to. Of course you would still need protective devices. At heavier pressures you might need submarine shells, and perhaps at times use Helium instead of N2 as the dilutant.

Obviously, a thin atmosphere would make it easier to use a rocket to go to orbit, and a thicker atmosphere would make landing easier.

So, it might be that a Rogue Venus with 50% gravity might be quite a find, if it had exposed rock of geothermal potential.

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I suppose I will look at Mars and Mercury next.

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Last edited by Void (2025-08-15 07:45:49)

Void · 2025-08-16 07:30:12

Now about worlds that are thought to be just large enough to perhaps become Steppenwolf planets, that might be Mars and Mercury, if ejected into space, could they collect a significant atmosphere of Hydrogen and Helium?

Ceres and most dwarf planets seem like they could not hold a atmosphere very well even in the spaces between stars. But I don't know that for sure.

Mars may still have geothermal hot spots that could be accessed. We are not aware that that is currently true on Mercury, but their gravity field are about 1/3rd that of Earth.

A world that is stratified, might conserve its heat, and not be able to collect radioactive dust from the universe and deliver it to its lower regions.

To have convection you need a gravity field, and also a mix of materials that will not stratify. If you don't have convection, then it is harder to see how ocean floor spreading hot spots can exist or those that are caused by plates diving under each other. But Hawaii on Earth does suggest something like a pimple as a method to erupt excess heat to the surface. Also, cryovolcanic, eruptions might be able to move heat to the surface.

It looks possible that Mars and Mercury need gravity, internal heat, and the proper mix of materials to foster convection.

On average Mercury has heavier materials than Earth, and Mars has lighter materials than Earth. At least that is my current notion of truth.

I presume that as was said to be the case of the Moon, first lavas were heavy, but over time the heavy materials condensed into crust and mantle, I guess, and the final lavas were of lighter materials.

In order for lavas to erupt to the surface, solid crust needs to fall, squeezing the lighter fluids up. Being lighter fluids, is due to type of materials and level of heating.

I suppose Ceres would not be likely to erupt to the surface with water, as water ice is lighter even than liquid water.

And an ejected Ceres would likely not have lost as much water if they got ejected early on their formation.

But so, water/ammonia eruptions might be useful with a rogue Ceres. Such an ocean of sea might allow access to core materials.

But Ceres is not thought to be large enough to collect a Hydrogen/Helium atmosphere.

I guess next I will think about Ice Giants, Gas Giants, and Brown Dwarfs, and their Satellites.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-16 07:51:12)

Void · 2025-08-16 09:11:26

This video states that if Earth were 10% heavier, then reusable would be impossible.
It also says that if Earth were 10% lighter, then reusable would be easy.

So, a Rogue 10% less than the mass of Earth would be a prize.

Smaller than that would be valuable also, but of course in my view, I want there to be geothermal energy available.

SpaceX Starship Expendable Mode SHOCKED Engineers: 250 Tons, Zero Recovery!
YouTube
Space Core
1 views

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Last edited by Void (2025-08-16 09:13:10)

Void · 2025-08-17 17:46:08

A Rogue Ice or Gas giant detected: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1JAZz3 Quote:

Einstein’s Theory Helps Astronomers Spot Mysterious Free-Floating Planet Using Hubble
Story by Lydia Amazouz • 2w •
4 min read

So, we have gone from not being able to detect rogues, to maybe once in a while detecting them.

I am wondering if it might eventually be possible to see a "Pinch" in the background radiation field from the Big Bang?

Certainly we don't have that yet, but I might think that if we could detect such "Pinches", eventually we might see them tracing a path across the view.

A closer rogue might be easier to see, I am guessing. But of course a rogue might be putting out Infared light, so maybe it is yet impossible.

Still it does not hurt to try. When you fail, sometimes that points to other possibilites.

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Last edited by Void (2025-08-17 17:50:54)

Void · 2025-08-18 15:28:23

I suppose that if you had a Rogue Mars, you might not need Plate Tectonics to access geothermal power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcHCAF5 … =SpaceSnap
Quote:

Mars Volcanoes Are More Dangerous Than We Thought!
SpaceSnap
14 subscribers

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Last edited by Void (2025-08-18 15:29:26)

Void · Yesterday 12:58:55

A possible fire fighting method I have tried to arrive at would be to push Oxygen depleted air into a building to suppress the fire.

That would not be easy, though, as CO is a poison so using combustion to reduce O2 might be best done by burning Hydrogen. But Hydrogen is hard to handle and the "Burned Air" would be heated a bit, unless you could cool it with a water stream.

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Calliban · Today 02:52:24

Oxygen depletion systems have been around for a while. They are usualy used as fire preventative measures and have been popular in libraries storing important texts. They work by reducing the partial pressure of oxygen in a space and replacing it with additional nitrogen. A reduction in oxygen partial pressure from 210 to 150-180mbar, doesn't sound like much. But it makes fire ignition less likely and impedes fire growth if one does start. Human habitation of the space remains possible, assuming one does not wish to engage in high performance exercise. These solutions are a bit niche on Earth, due to cost, energy consumption and the need for buildings to be well sealed to maintain atmospheric control.

Nitrogen or CO2 drench on the other hand, is a reactive firefighting system. I have seen it used on ships and submarines. It can be problematic if a compartment is not sealed because it will displace oxygen leaving trapped crew with nothing to breath. In a sealed compartment it is quite safe, because oxygen partial pressure does not decrease, but the nitrogen adds heat capacity to the air reducing flame temperature.

Both options are useful in space / lunar / mars habitats. In these cases, the air volume is fixed and such a system has lower risk of asphyxiation. Oxygen depletion can be used as well. But the problem here is that we already plan to use <1bar atmosphere. So it will be difficult to deplete oxygen without reducing oxygen partial pressure unacceptably. Putting in a few percent of heavier gas like a fluorocarbon, which has high volumetric heat capacity, may be a better way of suppressing fire. Cost may turn out to be an issue here.

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