Politics

kbd512 · 2025-05-24 21:54:19

Calliban and Terraformer,

What the heck is going on over there?

I'm worried about you guys.

SpaceNut · 2025-05-25 05:16:42

Terraformer wrote:

The sun has set on the United Kingdom for the first time in 200 years. Keir Starmer gave away our islands and a large sum of money, in return for which Mauritious will give us nothing at all. Worst deal in the history of deals, maybe ever.
We're still in twilight though, I believe. Night has not yet fallen. And Diego Garcia is under a lease now (which the next government should void, along with all the payments, and make it clear to Mauritious they aren't having our island) so it's still administered by us. We're holding on by a very thin thread, a very thin thread.
Perhaps, at least, we can finally bury the Yookay and let Albion return...

What to know about the deal to transfer sovereignty of the disputed Chagos Islands

It is sort of like many of the small islands of the Pacific claimed in colonial times that Natives were pushed off from during the world war II.

While it seems that a gradual release of control back to the native peoples for the future it is important so is the need to keep world peace.

Terraformer · 2025-05-25 16:27:43

They haven't given it to the Chagos Islanders, they've given it to a completely unrelated country on the spurious notion that being grouped together for administrative reasons by an imperial power one time means they belong to that country.

Calliban · 2025-05-30 04:19:50

The video below details some of the nightmare distopian laws coming to the UK in 2025.
https://youtu.be/sc-PB_pWggk

The Dems tried to impose this sort of state tyranny on the US, but were held back by the constitution and supreme court. The same thing succeeded in the UK, because it doesn't have a written constitution that defines the relationship between state and individual. If a government is elected with a majority, it really is free to impose anything it wants. The Crown, which is supposed to function as the ultimate backstop against a dangerous parliament, rubber stamps all laws produced by parliament without question.

The UK government is openly evil. It clearly does not value human freedom. It views personal initiative as a threat to its authority. Poll after poll indicates that this is the least popular government since records began. But Starmer has taken the position that he no longer cares about public opinion. We are stuck with him and his lackeys for another 4 years and he will do what he wants to do in that time. The king is the ultimate arbiter of government authority. A good king would dissolve parliament at this point and force a general election. But our king is weak and sick.

The UK has become a place where anyone wanting a decent future and any measure of self determination, has to leave. It is that simple. And that is exactly what I intend to do. It is what I recommend everyone to do.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-05-30 04:26:08)

RobertDyck · 2025-06-11 19:29:10

I've been following the war in Ukraine since Russia first invaded Crimea in 2014. I have engaged in a political forum where an actively serving officer of the Ukrainian military joined us. We were able to chat with him, and he provided detailed updates during that first year of the war in 2014. I could explain some of what's going on. Some MAGA people have become so imbued with Russian propaganda that they don't want to hear the truth. If I tried to post, would this just start another flame war? I believe my insights would help people understand what's going on, but are people willing to hear it?

RobertDyck · 2025-06-12 16:45:22

No answer. I'll try to keep it short, but the Russia-Ukraine war is complex.

History
The city of Kyiv was founded in 482 AD. Saint Sophia Cathedral in Kyiv was built 1011 to 1037. Moscow was founded 1147. Some people in Russia claim that Kyiv is the "mother" of Russia, because many of the founding people of Moscow came from there. Not all. The Roman Empire split into the western and eastern. The western Roman Empire became the Vatican, the eastern became the Byzantine Empire with its capital in Constantinople. The Ottoman Empire (now Turkey) conquered Constantinople in 1453, renaming it Istanbul. Rich and powerful people from the Byzantine empire fled to Russia, and many of the ruling class of Russia claim descent. An alternate spelling of the Russian title Tzar is Czar. That is the title Caesar, spelled phonetically using the Cyrillic alphabet. The Tzars of Russia literally saw themselves as the new incarnation of Rome. So is Ukraine really part of Russia? By that same argument, the UK is part of the US. Obviously absurd.

Russia invaded Ukraine in the 1700s. That war wasn't quick. Russia started trying to assert dominance over Ukraine in 1654, after many battles, Tzarina Catherine II (Catherine the Great) conquered and annexed much of central and eastern Ukraine in 1764–1781. Russia conquered Crimean in 1783, which had been a client state of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey). Russia kicked Ukrainians out of their homes, farms, places of business, throughout east Ukraine. Brought in Russian settlers. Ukrainians still resent Russia for this.

In 1917, during the World War 1, Russia had its Communist Revolution. Many eastern European counties that had been conquered by Russia gained their independence. The Soviet regime tried to conquer them back, starting with Poland. Soviet Russia invaded Poland 1917-1921. They failed, Poland successfully defended themselves. Poland did get aid from other European countries, but Polish soldiers had to do the fighting, much like Ukraine is today. After Russia gave up on Poland, they invaded Ukraine in 1922. Unfortunately they succeeded. Starting in 1932, Russia executed a policy called Holodomor. That means the Russian army stole food from Ukraine. Although Ukraine produced a surplus of food, enough to feed their population and export to other countries, Russia stole so much that there wasn't enough left for Ukraine people. This was an artificial famine. The official number was 10 million died. After the break-up of the Soviet Union, under Russian President Boris Yeltsin, many records were made available to the public. Those records reveal dead in Holodomor was closer to 30 million. Today Vladimir Putin claims "only" 7 million died. Whichever number you believe, millions died. Millions more fled the country.

During World War 2, Russia made an alliance with Nazi Germany. Nazis invaded Poland from the west, Russia a few days later from the east. They divided the country. The portion Russia took was never returned to Poland: a portion to Belarus, a portion to Ukraine, and the former Polish province of Prussia became Kaliningrad. Kaliningrad is still a part of Russia today. In the winter of 1939-1940, Russia tried to invade Finland. They failed, although Russia did take 9% of Finnish territory. When Nazi Germany saw Russia couldn't even conquer Finland on their own, they decided to invade Russia. Nazis didn't want any territory of Russia itself, just all the east European countries including the Russian controlled part of Poland and all of Ukraine. That's when Russia changed sides, joined the allies against Nazis. This is the real reason Russia hates Nazis so much; they see Nazis as a former ally who betrayed them.

Ukraine today
At the beginning of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russia force-conscripted (force-drafted, press-ganged) Ukrainian males from the occupied parts of Ukraine. All males age 18-55 who did not have a Russian passport, and all who did have a Russian passport but worked in a job Russia did not consider vital infrastructure. After just one week of the full-scale invasion, the age range was expanded to 18-65. They were forced to fight for Russia against the Ukrainian military. Ukraine had been fighting since the invasion of Crimea, so the war had been ongoing for 8 years at that point. Many of those Russia force-recruited were artists and journalists, civilians who knew nothing about fighting. They weren't given any body armour or training, just minimal weapons and sent against the veteran Ukrainian military. As far as Russia was concerned, this was Ukrainians fighting Ukrainians, so an easy way to exterminate Ukrainians.

Russia will never accept just a portion of Ukraine. Russia demands 100% of all of Ukraine. If they do succeed in conquering Ukraine, they will force-conscript Ukrainian males to fight against their next target. Vladimir Putin has filed a document with the International Community stating he wants all of the former Soviet Union, and all what was part of the Russian Empire under the Tzars. And Putin has made statements he intends to invade Poland and the Baltic States (Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia). Which is first after Ukraine? Doesn't matter because the other will be next. Members of the Ukrainian military will never fight for Russia against Ukraine's allies. And many Ukrainian civilians force-conscripted into the Russian army will not either. Russia has a policy of torturing Russian soldiers who refuse orders. Torture and threaten to kill them until they obey orders. If they don't obey, then kill them. When (not if) Ukrainians refuse to attack Ukraine's allies, they will be mass executed. Expect extermination camps on the scale of Auschwitz.

Russia has been abducting children from occupied areas of Ukraine, sending them into Russia for adoption. Russia has a Minister who's whole job is relocating abducted children, finding them families willing to adopt. The Russian families will require the children speak Russian, learn Russian culture. Russia changed their names, changed their birth dates, just so they can't be relocated. If a child is age 6 or older when abducted, they might remember who their real parents are. If they're newborn to age 3, forget it. This has been ongoing since the invasion of Donbas in 2014, so many children are growing up Russian. If Russia conquers Ukraine, this will be done all across Ukraine.

My point is Ukraine cannot surrender. For Ukraine the choice is win or die. And Russia cannot be allowed to keep any territory, because if they do, they'll just re-arm and use that territory to start the war all over again. Russia signed a ceasefire with Chechnya in 1997, then invaded again in year 2000. With Ukraine, they won't wait 3 years.
------

Russia
Population of the Soviet Union in 1989 was 287,800,000, third largest behind China and India. The US had a population of 250,140,000. Population of Russia in year 2000 was 146,001,176. (No census between those dates.) Russia today, not including Crimea, is 143,569,049. Russian demographics is horrible. Their fertility rate (birth rate) this year dropped to a 200 year low of 1.222. That means 1.222 babies born per woman during her entire lifetime, as a calculated average. You may think a couple must have 2 babies to replace themselves, but due to child deaths and other technical factors it must be 2.1. Muslims in Russia have a much higher birth rate, that average is for everyone in Russia including both ethnic Russians, Muslims, and all other ethnic groups. One estimate is by the end of this century, Russia will be primarily Muslim. Russia needs people. Since ancestors of the Russian people came from Kyiv, the Russian government thinks they can just "steal" the entire population of Ukraine and convert them to Russian.

As of today, Russian casualties have reached 1 million. That includes both dead and wounded, and includes everyone fighting for Russia. That includes Russian citizens recruited into the military, foreign citizens (mercenaries), and Ukrainians in occupied areas force-conscripted. That's just since the full-scale invasion of February 2022. Estimated total is 250,000 Russian soldiers dead, 700,000 wounded. The other 50,000 are non-Russian. Ukrainian losses are 70,000 dead. In addition 1 million Russian men of recruitment age have fled Russia.

Russia had over 3,000 tanks in active service at the beginning of the full-scale invasion in February 2022. Estimates were 10,000 more in storage. Some estimates were up to 17,500 including both active and storage. But Russia lost many of their tanks to Ukraine during the invasion of Kyiv, and many have been lost since. Many of those in storage have proven to be in such bad condition they cannot be put into service, cannot be repaired. If they're rusted so badly the wheels won't turn... Today all tanks Russia has are in the war in Ukraine. All tanks that could be repaired, have been. All that required upgrades to optics, have been. Russia is manufacturing new tanks as fast as they can, but they're losing more tanks per month than they're manufacturing. With nothing left in storage, the number they have in active combat declines every month.

During the Soviet Union, Ukraine was a major part of Russia's military industrial complex. Russia had between 2,000 and 3,000 tanks in Ukraine to be repaired when the Soviet Union broke up. Ukraine stopped working on them when they became an independent country. They Ukrainian city of Kharkiv built T-64 tanks for Russia. Again, that stopped. The city of Luhansk manufactured 25% of the ammunition for combat riffles for the Russian army, right up to the invasion of Crimea in 2014. During the first year of the invasion of Donbas in 2014, many people were worried Russia supplied ammunition to "rebels", but the factory in Luhansk actually exported ammunition to Russia. The "rebels" got more than they needed from that factory. By the way, Russia has admitted the invasion of Donbas was by Russian veterans, not local "rebels".

Ukraine invented the R7 rocket, the Soviet Union's first ICBM. Russia developed the nuclear warhead, but Ukraine developed the missile. Ukraine built Zenit launch vehicles to deliver Russia spy satellites to orbit. After Ukraine became an independent country, they sold Zenit rockets to Boeing to launch American military satellites via "Sea Launch". Antonov manufactured various aircraft in Kyiv, mostly cargo transport. The An-124 was the largest cargo aircraft in the world until they modified it to build the An-225, an even larger one. Russia was proud of these aircraft, but after the Soviet Union, Ukraine made An-124 available to NATO members for military transport. An-225 was initially built to transport Russia's Buran Space Shuttle, but after the break-up it was used for western commercial cargo, such as oil refinery parts.

Ukraine manufactured electronics for guidance for Russian ICBMs. Russia tried to replace those electronics with Russian made ones, and last September attempted a test launch of a Sarmat ICBM, known in the west as Satan II. It exploded in the silo. It had a dummy warhead, just something with mass, the explosion was all rocket fuel, but the explosion was enough to destroy the silo. November 21 Russia launched in Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile known as "Oreshnik" at the city of Dnipro. The missile did not have a warhead, but a supersonic missile that weighs tons will do major damage. The building they hit was the factory where Zenit launch vehicles were made. Russia destroyed it long before, so no one was in the building. It flew 500km (310 miles), but the missile has a range of 2,500 km (1,550 miles) and can carry a nuclear warhead. The Oreshnik test worked. May 25 of this year, Russia announced they would test launch an RS-24 Yars. That is a truck-launched ICBM. However... nothing. No explosion, no flying missile, just nothing. It's believed the missile failed to launch. So replacing Ukrainian electronics in Russia missiles is not working out so well.

Bottom line: Russia cannot hope to invade the other countries to get the Soviet Union back unless they have the resources of Ukraine. Russia feels they need the population of Ukraine to top-up their population. They've lost so many Russian citizens and lost so much military hardware that they can't afford to lose. It's the sunk cost fallacy. If a gambler loses too much, he may try to gamble even more to "win back" his loses. But by doing so just loses even more. Russia had a shrinking population before the war, and has lost far too many people due to the war. So they also lost too much military hardware.

RobertDyck · 2025-06-12 16:46:39

Short version
Ukraine cannot surrender. For them it's win or die.

Russia has lost too much. They can't afford to lose.

GW Johnson · 2025-06-19 12:27:26

Rob:

Your post 2957 summary is excellent, and the details in post 2956 are even more excellent. And you are quite correct: your assessment, truthful and accurate as it is, is at wide variance with what is claimed on (totally unregulated for truth) right-wing extremist social media, and even Fox (Faux) News. I go there rarely any more, because it nauseates me. But last time I went, I estimated 30% of that nonsense was implanted there by the Russians.

Thank you for putting the correct history into fairly-succinct perspective. I am surprised you haven't been "flamed" for this. Last time I tried something similar, I was "flamed". Which is why I rarely visit this thread at all anymore.

GW

kbd512 · 2025-06-19 16:28:20

GW,

You and RobertDyck want to live in an echo chamber where your personal beliefs, however much they diverge from observable reality, are only parroted back at you, rather than challenged. You don't know how to merely consider the possibility that someone else can hold views that are different from your own, yet still "not wrong" by any broader definition than self-similarity. The majority of the country repudiated those personal beliefs during the last election cycle, yet you seem very determined to avoid any self-reflection. Everyone who voted for President Trump is either stupid, a nazi, a Russian sympathizer, or someone who has been duped by Russian propaganda. Gotcha. That's a very trite and convenient way to ignore all other possibilities. It's yet another neat, simple, and wrong explanation.

GW Johnson · 2025-06-20 00:13:01

Rob:

Well, I wondered how long that would take. Not very long.

Kbd512:

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. I think you may actually be the one in the echo chamber. We don't get to "vote" on facts. They simply are, or are not.

As for Trump, that was an awfully slim "majority" in the popular vote. The electoral college does not reflect the popular vote very well, because most of the states do "winner take all". Whether that's good or bad, opinions differ. But it is a fact.

And what it means is that there is no wide mandate for all the MAGA nonsense being imposed on the rest of us. There never was. Those who tell you there was a vast majority for a mandate are lying to you. Fact.

And the country seems headed down the very same road taken by Germany in the 1930's with its would-be dictator who quickly became one. Fact.

I honestly see no difference in the behavior of ICE and the behavior of Hitler's Gestapo. Opinion. I understand why the agents want to wear masks and no ID badges. They know they are doing evil, and they fear for the safety of their families because of what they are doing. Opinion, but likely true.

That and the rest of the MAGA nonsense is exactly why some 11 million rose up in loud public protest a few days ago. Fact. Most of it was quite peaceful, despite the ballyhooing of the very few violent events. Fact. (Reporting bad news makes more profit -- fact).

Another historical observation is that when 3-4% of the population of a country starts rising up in loud public protest, that country's regime is usually doomed to fall. Fact. We do seem to be headed that way, too. 11/330 = 3%. Fact.

And getting "flamed" for not being a right-wing extremist, is why I so rarely ever visit this thread. Fact.

The only reason I did this time, was to see what Rob had to say about Ukraine and Russia. I thought he did a good job trying to relate it all, rather factually.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2025-06-20 00:26:09)

kbd512 · 2025-06-20 04:33:53

GW,

I think you may actually be the one in the echo chamber.

The Democrats lost on all accounts- House, Senate, Presidency, popular vote, and Electoral College. Republicans not winning the popular vote has been a favorite Democrat talking point over the last decade or so. Your attempt to move the goal post is very predictable, but still falls flat.

And what it means is that there is no wide mandate for all the MAGA nonsense being imposed on the rest of us.

By that metric, there was never a mandate for all the nonsense imposed on us by the Democrats, either.

Off the top of my head:
1. Creating a pathogen in a Chinese lab, spreading knowingly false lies about COVID's origins and vaccines, lockdowns and resultant economic destruction
2. Allowing biological men pretending to be women into women's bathrooms, locker rooms, and sports
3. Spending hundreds of billions of dollars on "green energy", that ultimately produced a lot of nothing
4. Blatant racism against white and Asian people in hiring practices, recently overturned by SCOTUS in a 9-0 decision
5. Attempts at de-facto firearms bans which were repeatedly struck down by SCOTUS
6. Using the FBI, IRS, CIA, and NSA against political opponents using political smears as "evidence"
7. Attempts to convict a President of a crime where no codified law was ever broken, nor injured party
8. Abandoning our allies in Afghanistan to the Taliban, in order to start the next pointless war in Ukraine
9. Defending anti-semitic violence perpetrated on Jewish students in our universities
10. Purposefully lying to the American people about the mental faculties of President Biden

Democrats never had a mandate from anyone to do any of that idiotic nonsense. If they ever thought they did, I hope President Trump being elected to a second term in office by the majority of the electorate disabused them of that notion.

And the country seems headed down the very same road taken by Germany in the 1930's with its would-be dictator who quickly became one. Fact.

That's your personal opinion, stated as if it was a fact, but you've lost objectivity so you cannot tell the difference.

I honestly see no difference in the behavior of ICE and the behavior of Hitler's Gestapo. Opinion.

Do you make any distinction between arrests of organized foreign criminal gang members and drug cartel members, who claim to be members of said organization, and "ordinary" illegals?

Do you remember "Maryland man"?

That narrative was Democrat media knowingly falsely portraying a foreign criminal gang member as a local family man who just happened to be an illegal, after he'd already told our federal agents exactly who and what he was, because he didn't think it would have any effect on where he ended up. He was wrong, and so were all the Democrats who were lied to by their own media. They were convinced that little cretin was some kind of saint who was unjustly targeted because he was an immigrant. He was a human trafficker, someone who was involved with selling children and young women into sexual slavery, who beat his wife so badly that she called the Police asking for a restraining order, before figuring out that they felt no obligation to protect her from her abuser. That's the kind of filth our Democrats and their propagandists carry water for. I never was the least bit confused over who / what he was. Democrat media is just repulsive filth. That's all.

US Immigration and Customs Enforcement Administrative Arrest Statistics

When more than 10 times as many arrests were being made between 2020 and 2024, under President Biden's administration, because his ICE appointees weren't actually removing said criminals from our country or incarcerating them, is your assertion that all those arrests were completely above board because President Biden was in office, but now that we're actually getting rid of real criminals under President Trump, and we require fewer and fewer arrests as a result, you think that's indicative of Gestapo-like malfeasance?

Anybody equipped with a pair of functional eyeballs can look at those real facts and figures provided by ICE, but I don't think you ever have.

I understand why the agents want to wear masks and no ID badges. They know they are doing evil, and they fear for the safety of their families because of what they are doing. Opinion, but likely true.

How many interactions have you ever had with multinational gang members and drug cartel members?

I'll bet that number is zero.

That and the rest of the MAGA nonsense is exactly why some 11 million rose up in loud public protest a few days ago. Fact. Most of it was quite peaceful, despite the ballyhooing of the very few violent events. Fact. (Reporting bad news makes more profit -- fact).

Speaking of nobody being entitled to their own facts, you, sir, are not entitled to call a riot a "loud public protest", nor any kind of a protest, when there are literally thousands of pictures and videos of people dancing on burning cars in the streets that don't even belong to the government they're supposedly protesting against, throwing Molotov cocktails at the Police and assaulting them, looting stores, and preventing hundreds of thousands of people from getting to work. Words have meanings, so let's start honoring the meaning and intent of the words.

A protest is a public demonstration expressing disapproval of something, often advocating for change through peaceful means. A riot, on the other hand, is a form of civil unrest characterized by violence, destruction of property, and a disturbance of the public peace. While protests can sometimes escalate into riots, the key distinction lies in the use of violence and the intent behind the gathering.

That is a real fact, not my opinion.

Just another unsurprisingly typical image of the aftermath of your fellow leftist's riots, falsely labeled as "mostly peaceful protests" by yourself and your fellow leftists:

Nothing says "proud to be an American" like burning someone else's car in the street, looting, and waving Mexican flags:

More "mostly peaceful" arson:

Mostly destroyed Police vehicles that the tax payers get to dig into their pockets to replace:

Just look at how peacefully that building is burning to the ground:

Those Waymo cars must really be threatening to your fellow leftists:

Oh, look, they even respect law enforcement:
Z3SJCVDW3NPOTCAGZ5SFBBAXB4.jpg?auth=a06eaad642ee88fc835d1d1018484c91d588d359b13f8ef46611274ad883e85f&width=1080&quality=80

Those are real "facts", captured in photos and on video tape, for the entire world to see. I can and will keep posting more, endlessly if required, until you get the point. Those are all images of R-I-O-T-S, taken over the past week, from places like Los Angeles, New York, and Chicago. There's nothing peaceful about them. I can tell you for a fact that I value the lives and property of leftists, which is why I never treat their communities the way they treat them- like trash.

And getting "flamed" for not being a right-wing extremist, is why I so rarely ever visit this thread. Fact.

What you are receiving here are images of all your "mostly violent riots", where there does in fact seem to be a rather unhealthy obsession, amongst those on the left, with actual "flaming" of the property of others. Those images are not right-wing or left-wing in nature. However, they are entirely the work product of real left-wing extremists. You'll have to pardon me if it's a bit hard to hear the actual "protest" over the Police, Fire, and EMS sirens responding to all the looted stores, burnt cars and buildings, and broken or dead bodies those riots leave in their wake.

If you don't like America's immigration policies, then petition Congress to change the laws. The Democrats have held the Presidency, Senate, and Congress during periods of time when all their fake whining and crying over our immigration laws took places, yet your Democrat politicians, who you voted for, quite clearly refused to simply change the law to say that anyone is allowed to come into the United States for any reason.

BTW, join the crowd, bubba. My wife's sister has been patiently waiting her turn to immigrate while all these criminals bum rushed our border. I stopped counting how much money we've paid to the US government and the Vietnamese government for paperwork processing fees and background checks, and how many years we've patiently waited our turn. Oddly enough, she's already learned to speak English, she has a college degree- a science degree rather than a lesbian interpretive dance degree, she's been employed for her entire adult life, and she'll be waving an American flag, not a Vietnamese flag, if/when she finally enters our country- LEGALLY!

I'm married to a LEGAL first generation immigrant, who treats both her American citizenship and our flag as priceless personal treasure, worth any amount of sacrifice. The only time I've ever seen her with a Vietnamese flag was to place one at the war memorial for her father and uncle, along with an American flag.

The only reason I did this time, was to see what Rob had to say about Ukraine and Russia. I thought he did a good job trying to relate it all, rather factually.

I don't take any issue with him relaying his opinions about Ukraine and Russia. He's entitled to express them like everyone else is. The only issue I take is over all the half-court tennis games you guys like to play.

kbd512 · 2025-06-20 09:46:37

Let's consider the obverse of RobertDyck's remarks and observations about the Russia-Ukraine War.

Russia, the nation, also ceases to exist if it's overrun by the Europeans and/or Chinese. They, as in the majority of the Russian people, view what we've been doing in Europe as a thinly disguised threat to their sovereignty as a nation. Pointing missiles at them from their doorstep will be viewed by Russia the same way America viewed the Russians putting ICBMs in Cuba. Whether we view it that way, or not, is utterly irrelevant to how they choose to respond. Basically, "the enemy gets a vote". People who have actually served overseas in the American military instinctively know this. That's how I "know this". I don't need to read or listen to anyone else's talking points to know it, either. I would just call a spade a spade, but that's silly old me.

As much as the Ukrainians don't consider allowing Russians to squat on their territory as an acceptable state of affairs, the Russians don't consider NATO nations encircling Russia to be an acceptable option for their nation, either. You can believe that, not believe it, or anything in between, but that's how they view what NATO has done and is doing now. I don't have to agree with their beliefs, nor any part of what they have done in the past or are doing now, to understand and accept that this is how they perceive NATO.

Let's assert that Ukraine somehow manages to completely wipe out the bulk of Russia's conventional military forces.

At that point, Russia can either:
A. Capitulate and unconditionally surrender to Ukrainian, American / European, and/or Chinese military forces
or...
B. Russia starts lobbing whatever remaining functional nukes they have at their enemies

If the Russians are as bad as you and RobertDyck claim they are, which option seems more plausible to you?

Maybe your read of Russian history is different from my own, but no part of what I've read about what they've done to their own people makes me think "Option A" is even a point worthy of their consideration. I could be totally wrong and they might fold like a wet newspaper tomorrow morning, but I sincerely doubt that will ever happen. The Russians are not the French. They don't view the world the way you or I do, and they probably never will. I, for my part, am not willing to bet the lives of tens of millions of Europeans or my fellow Americans on a fool's errand to take Moscow from those little commie bastards.

At this point, I would much rather we either:
A. Sent American troops into Ukraine to separate the Ukrainians from the Russians
or...
B. Stayed the hell out of Europe and let the Europeans decide what's what in Europe

I have a very strong preference for the latter option, seeing as how most Europeans tell Americans how dumb we are and how wrong we are about everything. That sounds a lot like another group of people we have here in America, who also cannot manage their own affairs without the adult supervision they're incapable of providing for themselves. I prefer to leave the ungrateful to their own devices. My response to the Europeans is that them fighting their own wars sounds great to me, so solve your own internal security problems and stop blaming America for your government's infantile behavior. Our military power dynamic may be uneven because America spent the last human lifetime bankrupting itself as a global security guarantor, but everybody at the table is a big boy / big girl, so act like it. Every American President from Bush Jr onward has politely asked the Europeans to start handling their own security affairs. Even President Trump has been far more diplomatic about it than I would've been.

If someone can and will articulate to the American people, regardless of personal political cost, why it's necessary to send American troops into Ukraine, then do it. Anyone making this argument should either be sending their son or daughter, or volunteering themselves to go fight the Russians, if that's what it takes. Until then, stop making false accusations and start attempting to come up with coherent arguments about why continuing to pour billions of dollars into Ukraine is in America's national security interests. RobertDyck touched on the sunk cost fallacy. Collectively, America and the European Union have poured about a half trillion dollars into Ukraine, but the war hasn't ended. The Russians haven't given up their territorial expansion ambitions. I really wish they would go back to Russia, but as Tommy Norris said to the drug cartel dude who kidnapped him in Landman, "Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first." If anyone thinks that's likely to occur in the near future, I think they're delusional. Someone with a bit of introspection might reflect on this point.

Am I suitably amazed and even pleased with what the Ukrainians were able to achieve?

Yes. Absolutely.

Do I think they have a prayer of actually winning a war with Russia without foreign troops?

No. None.

That means America or the European Union is going to intervene militarily on their behalf, or ultimately Ukraine is going to lose, however long and brutal that process has to be. That will happen, and for the reasons I stated. The inevitable conclusion of WWII should've been an obvious foregone conclusion for all involved parties, yet somehow their unchecked emotions overrode their ability to count or apply basic logic and reasoning to their course of action. That's why so many people died. If you care at all for the Ukrainian people, then stop using your heart and start using your head.

I'm not telling you that Ukraine's military capitulation is a foregone conclusion. I'm telling you the only realistic way that the Russians will be ejected from Ukrainian territory. We have a hard decision to make with real consequences. Many lives will be lost, regardless of how we choose to handle this. We can either pay now or pay later, but pay we will because there's no other option on offer. This is facts over feelings speaking here. Ukraine simply doesn't have enough people, or enough weapons, possibly not even the right kinds of weapons, to win a protracted war of attrition with a much larger country which has access to a much deeper pool of raw materials, manufacturing capacity, and human labor resources to draw from.

As far as what the Russians actually did to the Ukrainian people, it's evil and I've already plainly stated that more than once. Your emotions over what the Russians did won't change what will ultimately happen to the Ukrainian people one iota. Giving them a false sense of security was profoundly wrong. There was one and only one opportunity to prevent this pointless slaughter of Ukrainians and Russians. That would have been for President Biden to put American troops between the Ukrainians and Russians, after articulating to the American people why it was necessary to do so. It was very simple to do, but never done, because it would've been politically unpopular. Many wise and correct but wildly unpopular decisions are destructive to political careers, but that comes with the job description of "Leader of the Free World". President Biden blew that opportunity completely, because whomever was actually leading America (since I know it was never him) was incompetent to lead. Americans would've protested sending American troops to Ukraine, the Europeans would've protested, and the Russians would've protested. At the end of the day, the correct decision would've been made, which would've resulted in no war, or a very brief and very one-sided slaughter, same as what happened to the Iraqi Army in 1991.

RobertDyck · Today 10:59:14

I haven't read posts 2961 & 2962, will try to do so later. Just need to point out that my posts 2956 & 2957 are about Russia, I didn't say anything about Trump.

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