Para Terra formation of ice worlds with Nuclear and Water

Void · 2025-06-12 19:58:24

Due to recent materials available, I think I can justify this topic.

1) https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11114
Quote:

his video is unique, I think as it has thinking from an actual Scientist, as to how liquid water may naturally exist on Mars near the surface.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 9cdbbc2f11
Quote:
How Liquid Water Can Hide on Mars
YouTube
Fraser Cain
94 views
Among useful information is how pockets of water could form in exposed ice, and how dust and the size of ice crystals in the ice may protect the water from UV light.
So, I have tried in the past to make devices involving ice and water to grow things on Mars like as to farm.
So, this is quite a resource for me.
Ending Pending

There are several valuable things in the video, among them is that 1/3rd of Mars is covered with ice, usually under soil, except the poles for the most part.

We also believe that Mars has enough water to cover all the surface with 100 feet of water. (30.48 Meters).

This information is important, but what really has me going is that Helion has contracts to sell electricity from fusion, already. Can that fail? Of course, but just imagine the solar system that will exist once some form of fusion is made real and economic in nature.

Here is an article about it: https://www.helionenergy.com/articles/h … microsoft/ Quote:

Helion announces world’s first fusion energy purchase agreement with Microsoft
New facility aims to deliver at least 50 MW and begin producing electricity by 2028, dramatically shortening the projected timeline for commercially viable fusion energy

Could there be some Elon Time? (Not Elon's fault if so). Well likely, but these people have something more than a fusion steam kettle.

And of course many members here will not be surprised if I suggest mass agriculture on Mars using low pressure domes and ice covered lakes.

Taken to an extreme, the entire Hellas Basin and the Northern Basins could become such farms.

And similar technology would be useful on Titan, and eventually perhaps Pluto and Eris.

And so on.

While some may see it as unlikely, I think maybe we should keep such a possible solar system in our basket of possibility.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-06-12 20:16:02)

tahanson43206 · 2025-06-13 06:27:40

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed to NewMars members over time.

Index:

(th)

Void · 2025-06-13 09:41:15

So, environmental modifications of specific places on Mars may facilitate intentional growing of some "Crops".

I am not so sure that this plant could actually make it on its own on Mars but some have suggested that it could: https://www.newsweek.com/desert-moss-su … nt-1918887
Quote:

A type of moss found in the desert—named Syntrichia caninervis—may be able to survive and grow in the harsh environment of Mars, according to a new paper in the journal The Innovation.
This moss can grow in freezing temperatures as cold as -320.8 degrees Fahrenheit, and can survive levels of gamma radiation that would kill most other plants and life forms.
The plant can also withstand incredibly dry conditions, as well as a combination of dryness, heavy radiation, and cold weather in a simulation of the conditions on the Red Planet.
"Our study shows that the environmental resilience of S. caninervis is superior to that of some of highly stress-tolerant microorganisms and tardigrades," the researchers wrote in the paper. "S. caninervis is a promising candidate pioneer plant for colonizing extraterrestrial environments, laying the foundation for building biologically sustainable human habitats beyond Earth."

Tests in Germany have suggested that Cyanobacteria, Algae, and some Lichen might be able to live in protected cracks on Mars, and even grow. That may be optimistic, but it suggests that the surface of Mars in protected cracks, is on the edge of be habitable by extreme organisms.

So, I would think that if the CO2 reservoirs in the polar caps could be kept evaporated, to the atmosphere, the planet might improve enough for some very hardy life to make it.

Para Terraforming specific locations though might move things closer to productive agriculture.

So, we might try inflatable domes of some kind. Information resources on that can appear here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 13#p190313
Post #1 of "Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff."

Many useful things are in that post#1. As for the structure of the inflatable domes, the now dormant member SeaDragon had useful things to say. His useful quote is in here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 08#p218208 Quote:

Re: Human missions » Construction technology for Mars? » 2020-08-01 09:13:40
SeaDragon
louis,
Casey Handmer is amazing but I'd like to add a technical fix to that fluorine access problem for ETFE.
The call for ETFE is based on the impression that UV damage would destroy other types of plastic which is not necessarily true - it's mostly the production of oxygen based free radicals that causes the issue (for quick reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_degradation ). If you can stop oxygen from inside diffusing into the plastic then UV degradation is greatly reduced and the inclusion of hindered amine light stabilisers (HALS) as copolymers, even making up as little as 0.25% of the total plastic, this can be greatly reduced yet further.
So:
- With a thin layer of something like poly(ethyl vinyl alcohol), usually written EVOH, the majority of oxygen transmission into a plastic habitat skin can be stopped
- A small amount of HALS copolymers stops initial free radical compounds made just after UV absorption in the plastic from propagating and leads to spectacular decreases in corrosion rates before any oxygen that does get through can make things worse.
With these fixes we can just use PET or a similarly cheap and easily produced plastic with no crazy elements like fluorine needed at all.
If we reinforce with basalt fibre (very nearly as good as Keflar but far far cheaper than Keflar) instead of Keflar or equivalent we'd be able to build this sort of thing at an industrial scale using only the resources we have on hand + a few low mass imported extras like HALS copolymers, accounting for perhaps 400 tonnes of plastic per 1 tonne of HALS or something.

So, this suggests that even in the UV flux of Mars surface, some means can be employed to limit damage to inflatable or other domes. First of all by adding materials to combat oxidation, and also I think, then that limiting exposure of the dome to Oxygen may help.

So, a minimal method of agriculture might include a dome with only a small amount of relative pressurization and very shallow water might be sufficient to grow a crop of Algae or Cyanobacteria. Methods to limit damage to the dome from the Oxygen that these microbes may produce could include removal of Oxygen from the air by some means, and a layer of ice over the shallow water, with removal of dissolved Oxygen from the water by some means.

As it happens several sources indicate that ice and possibly ice with dust in it may reduce the input of UV though the ice into the water below. So, some sunscreen like value in ice may exist. In post #1 of this topic the video attached discusses that, and also indicates that the size of the ice crystals in the ice may affect the blocking of UV light.

So, shallow pool farming may be possible on Mars.

Of course then I will want to go deeper.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-06-13 10:08:49)

Void · 2025-06-13 21:13:49

Here is a basic diagram of the concept:

By keeping O2 at a minimum over the ice and over the dome, it is thought that the damage to the dome will be kept minimized.

The average Mars air pressure being 7 millibar, ice will be stable if the dome prevents the winds from snatching the moisture from the surface of the ice. Inside of the dome even a pressure of 20 millibars would further stabilize the ice.

Here again are the resources I have collected over time: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 13#p190313

Here is the pressure calculator: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

If we keep the water or ice on the surface of the pond below 17.5 degrees C, the water will not boil.

So, according to the video in post #1 of this topic, ice can block some UV, based on the dust in it, and on the size of the ice crystals.

Normally it would be preferred to keep ice on top of the pond. But periodically it would be possible to melt the ice and reform it, perhaps overnight. You could add sunblock to the ice even, perhaps.

Metal Oxides might help: https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/healt … tal-oxides

While Antarctica has natural lakes that allow photosynthesis under ice, the conditions for Mars will be less favorable.

Lake Vanda of Antarctica: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda

For Mars, the light is more attenuated, and dust wants to cover the dome or ice exposed, and not only that but global dust storms will also block light. It is less likely that direct sunlight though the ice could keep the lake thawed. But that is OK, we can use the lake to store heat from any heat source we have such as concentrating mirrors, or extra power from solar panels, or from nuclear. Nuclear fission is the one that is real at this time, but I am anticipating that some company will get a practical fusion energy method within the next 10 or maybe even 50 years.

Similarly filtered sunlight might drive life in underwater greenhouses, but I anticipate artificial chemosynthesis to be supplemental to growing the crops. The production of extra Oxygen, Acetate, Methane, and Hydrogen would likely be possible from power sources such as photovoltaic, solar-thermal, or nuclear.

But I think that a combination of sunlight and chemicals would provide the broadest possibility for various types of "Crops" to be cultivated.

Where Algae, and Cyanobacteria are simple options, I have also often proposed Hydrilla for various reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla
Quote:

Hydrilla (waterthyme) is a genus of aquatic plant, usually treated as containing just one species, Hydrilla verticillata, though some botanists divide it into several species. It is native to the cool and warm waters of the Old World in Asia, Africa and Australia, with a sparse, scattered distribution; in Australia from Northern Territory, Queensland, and New South Wales.[2][3][4]
The stems grow up to 1–2 m long. The leaves are arranged in whorls of two to eight around the stem, each leaf 5–20 mm long and 0.7–2 mm broad, with serrations or small spines along the leaf margins; the leaf midrib is often reddish when fresh. It is monoecious (sometimes dioecious), with male and female flowers produced separately on a single plant; the flowers are small, with three sepals and three petals, the petals 3–5 mm long, transparent with red streaks. It reproduces primarily vegetatively by fragmentation and by rhizomes and turions (overwintering), and flowers are rarely seen.[3][5][6][7] They have air spaces to keep them upright.
Hydrilla has a high resistance to salinity compared to many other freshwater aquatic plant

But it could be possible to put an air filled farm container in the pond that could grow things like Hemp:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp
Quote:

Hemp, or industrial hemp, is a plant in the botanical class of Cannabis sativa cultivars grown specifically for industrial and consumable use. It can be used to make a wide range of products.[1] Along with bamboo, hemp is among the fastest growing plants on Earth.[2] It was also one of the first plants to be spun into usable fiber 50,000 years ago.[3] It can be refined into a variety of commercial items, including paper, rope, textiles, clothing, biodegradable plastics, paint, insulation, biofuel, food, and animal feed.[4][5]
Although chemotype I cannabis and hemp (types II, III, IV, V) are both Cannabis sativa and contain the psychoactive component tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), they represent distinct cultivar groups, typically with unique phytochemical compositions and uses.[6] Hemp typically has lower concentrations of total THC and may have higher concentrations of cannabidiol (CBD), which potentially mitigates the psychoactive effects of THC.[7] The legality of hemp varies widely among countries. Some governments regulate the concentration of THC and permit only hemp that is bred with an especially low THC content into commercial production.[8][9]

If you could grow hemp, then it is likely you could grow garden vegetables.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-06-13 21:42:29)

Void · 2025-06-14 14:10:49

One thing I have noticed over time is that the Mars polar areas are regarded as too cold, but for Europa, some people imagine putting settlements in its ice, and artificial lighting in it's oceans.

Mars polar ice caps surely have more solar energy than Europa. It is rather seasonal of course.

But it is a wonderful thing that large masses of ice exist under the soil in the temperate zones, and even near the tropical zone.

Some people now consider that limited melt water is thought to be possible by some in temperate zones where, ice is exposed, and has perhaps just a little maybe 1% dust in it. Exposed ice at the poles is too cold at those high latitudes.
At very low latitudes, exposed ice is likely to evaporate too fast for significant water pockets in the ice.

One way to create an actual biosphere just under the surface of Mars would be to add additional energy into exposed ice.
But if you shine more visible light onto the ice you may heat the surface too much, and it may tend to evaporate. But if you were to microwave the ice from the surface or from orbit, you may leave the surface ice more protected, and yet promote melting deeper in the ice. And natural sunlight might pass though the ice into the melted water.

We might create a photo-aquifer such as may exist at times in the ice mass of Greenland: https://science.nasa.gov/earth/water-on … nland-ice/
Quote:

4 min read
Enormous aquifer found beneath Greenland ice
The headshot image of NASA Science Editorial Team
NASA Science Editorial Team
Jan 06, 2014
Article
A huge lake of liquid water has been discovered under the Greenland ice sheet. The find - a complete surprise given the subzero temperatures at the ice surface - is turning our understanding of Greenland on its head.

Rivers of water can run on the Mars of today. They would be covered in ice, and would suffer fairly high evaporation losses, but they could exist if you had the melt water to make them.

And artificial aquifer in the ice caps of Mars could provide such rivers. Things like ice dams could form, so perhaps also lakes.

Keep in mind that any water evaporated into the atmosphere would return to the poles for the most part. So the polar ice mass would not particularly diminish by this activity.

The result of this would likely be lakes and even seas at the perimeter of the ice caps.

Keep in mind that microwaves that push heat into the ice would also tend to unsettle frozen CO2.

And with the use of other terraform methods, it could be that the air pressure over the Mars ice caps might double or more. This would make liquid water just a little more possible.

So, anyway, down the line it might be possible to partially liquify the ice caps of Mars using microwaves, and to form significant pockets of water around them.

Of course if nuclear fusion becomes possible, then the nuclear fuel will be in the water, and at a proportion much larger than for Earth.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adm7499
Quote:

The D/H ratio in martian water today is roughly four to eight times larger (D/H ~ 0.001) than at Earth (10, 12–14), consistent with the loss of a substantial amount of water from Mars early in its history based on models of the loss processes (9, 10, 15).

When American science insists that this ratio shows that the bulk of water has evaporated into space, they may be correct for the water that has been on the surface of Mars for billions of years. But they may not be talking about the huge oceans of water that are now thought to be deep in cracks in the crust of Mars.

But it does not so much matter anyway. The fuel is already concentrated to higher than Earth levels for the water that would be easy to reach.

But there is a huge mass of ice burried deep in the Mars equator: https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean Quote:

A European Space Agency (ESA) probe has found enough water to cover Mars in an ocean between 4.9 and 8.9 feet (1.5 and 2.7 meters) deep, buried in the form of dusty ice beneath the planet's equator.

Image Quote:

If heat could be projected into it the ice may melt and you would get an artesian eruption of water creating a lake.

If you covered the created ice with domes, you could reduce evaporation rates and collect more heat to inject into the ice. It might be somewhat unstable, so it needs some work.

I have thought that perhaps you could run an electric current into the ice from two or more grounding posts.

But of course I do not favor melting all ice, as I think it can be useful as Structure.

For instance I have various notions of such methods of structure: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 69#p232069 Image Quote:

But ice structure and water structure are a bit incompatible, so they might be joined by tunnels and vaults in the bedrock of Mars.

So then "The Boring Company".

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-06-14 14:50:55)

Calliban · 2025-06-15 11:16:27

Void, congratulations on an interesting new topic! Your posts continue to inspire new thinking.

For Mars specifically, ice covered ponds would be good places to grow algae, yeast and cyanobacteria. These can be used as biomass feedstock for petrochemicals and even food ingredients. The greenhouse would not need to be pressurised. Evaporation will result in high humidity within the greenhouse, which should suppress further sublimation from the ice layer. So the greenhouse keeps water vapour in and prevents dust from contaminating the surface of the ice. It can be a relatively light structure, made from glass panes in a metal frame. It needs to stand up to wind liading during dust storms, but the dP in such a thin atmosphere should be modest. We could even floating the glass structure over the solid ice. That avoids the need for heavy supporting frames.

As an aside, Isaac Arthur has produced a terraforming compendium.
https://youtu.be/PRzfQofJZRk

I have watched about one third of his video so far. One thing that has occured to me in the past, is that human colonies established on icy outer solar system bodies will generate waste heat and will leak oxygen. Both effects will contribute to terraforming. Waste heat will raise temperatures, causing ice sublimation. Solar UV will dissociate water vapour into hydrogen and oxygen, with the former escaping and the latter remaining trapped. Terraforming is something that will happen slowly even if humans are not actively trying to do it. As human population rises, so does heat generation. This accelerates the whole process. So ultimately, large bodies will tend to accumulate thin oxyfen atmospheres. Eventually, pressure may increase to the point where the atmosphere is breathable.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-06-15 11:31:57)

Void · 2025-06-15 11:19:34

Thanks for the contribution Caliban.

Here is another concept from my bag of tricks from the past in this case.

The Diagram is not the greatest but....

If you create a reservoir of ice blocks in a basin, then....

Cover it with a Poly sheet, then....

Melt the ice below leaving a ice layer above, then...

Fill "Poly-Pollows with water or an oil, then.....

Lay them like tiles over the poly which is over the ice, then....

Let the fluid in the Poly-Pillows cool/freeze, then....

You have a repairable surface which will protect the ice from sublimation.

The Poly Pillows are weights with envelops to keep the interior materials from sublimation. They will hold down the main poly underlayment sheet so that sunlight will not cause it to billow upward. The Poly Pillow "Tiles" also will have thermal inertia, which will keep the heat of the day away from the ice under the main poly underlayment from rising to sublimation temperatures. They will store the cold of the night.

The pillows can be lifted up for replacement/repairs, and the paysheet underlayment can be patched/replaced.

As the poly or other transparent/translucent plastic ages/yellows you can repair replace, and recycle the yellowed/aged plastic into something else.

For the underwater "Cone-Home" you would need to have something to make a shell out of and then heap dredged soil over the cone, then fill it with air:

In these things, an attempt is to make as good as is possible with relatively simple and abundant materials.

Ending Pending

So, these can be added to potential "Para Tera Forming" tricks.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-06-15 11:49:09)

Void · Yesterday 09:19:41

If you have liquid water, nutrients, and an energy source then productivity seem achievable.

The various options for water/ice reservoirs with protective cover probably can limit water losses, but not completely so.

For the temperate ice slabs then I advocate tunnels in the ice to provide ice caves and to provide make-up water.
This may apply to the Equatorial ice masses in some cases. There seems to be one near the surface around Candor-Chaos, but we do not have much certainty of it's nature except that it shows Hydrogen near the surface for an area about the size of Holland.

These things could be done prior to large scale terraform attempts.

To create a starter biome that would be semi-natural, I think the best bet is to melt the polar ice caps to produce ice covered bodies of water. Earth's Antarctica has various of those, some which support Photosynthesis though the ice even.

So, in all cases we want to associate properly measured levels of energy with available ground ice.

Solar is a good one, but I think it needs a boost with nuclear fission and nuclear fusion when possible.

Also existing is the possibility of Orbital Solar with microwave energy beamed down to the surface.

In the case of an artificial body of water like this:

My thinking is that microwaves from orbit would tend to pass through the ice and would be absorbed in the water, if it can be like a microwave oven.

The characteristic of the Mars atmosphere will be important. It may be desirable to thicken it by adding heat to the polar areas.

This has been considered before, and greenhouse gasses, and special particles are in consideration for that.

This is not to say that you could not put a rectenna on top of the ice to also receive some of the energy.

It has been suggested to melt the poles by various means such as mirrors or even nuclear bombs.

I might think to avoid surface heating. I think that if you could send microwaves though the CO2 layer of the south pole and melt some of the water ice under it, this may conserve the heat to do the maximum evaporation of CO2, rather than for much of the added energy to simply reflect off into space.

A thickened atmosphere would likely improve the radiation problem quite a bit, I understand. But we might not want to go so far as to not be able to use mass drivers from the mountain tops of Mars.

A thicker atmosphere would, I think, make the terminal velocity for a spacecraft landing a lower speed.

So, this would be a level of Para Tera Forming and Terraforming that could be first achievable, and later if the Martians decided they wanted to warm things up more, I guess that would be their decision.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 09:38:05)

Void · Yesterday 18:04:38

I have notions for protecting Starships which have been made to be horizontal on the ground.

They are only ideas. Perhaps useful or not. I don't feel comfortable with the notion of piling regolith on top of a Starship. I fear that without braces, if the ship depressurizes the tin can may collapse under the weight of the regolith.

Maybe I am wrong.

Here I do suggest heaping regolith around the lower portions. However, as it is going to be necessary to have lots of water ice to extract water from, I suggest the above.

It would be inflatable with compressed air, and then water would be poured into it from the top and allowed for freeze into ice starting with the bottom. The inflatable would likely be reflective and also the dust that would probably collect on it would protect it from UV light damage.

It is only an option and would be an additional expense to import the inflatable from Earth.

Once the ice was frozen, the arch might not collapse if the Starship is depressurized. Of course, probably a depressurization is a bad thing, but if it happens and you can patch it, you might recover its former value if it has not been crushed.

Here is a revision with "Flanges" to reduce terminal velocity:

Here again I may be wrong.

Still, I will suggest the above again.

The upper side as shown would have a used one time heat shield on it, the bottom would have had thrusters to allow horizontal landing.

The Lunar Starship is supposed to have special engines to finish the landing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_HLS

Global web icon
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Starship_HLS
Starship HLS - Wikipedia
When within 100 meters of the lunar surface, the HLS variant is planned to use high‑thrust landing engines located in the mid‑body section of the spacecraft to avoid plume impingement with the lunar regolith, [7] though these engines may not be needed. [8]

So, in my notion above, such engines would finish the landing to horizontal using similar engines.

SpaceX has a under shield which is to protect a Starship if the primary heat shield fails. I suggest using just that on this ship. I am also presuming that the ship with flanges could ascend though the atmosphere of Earth with the flanges on, or they would need to be added in LEO.

The flanges are intended to spread the heat load, reducing the peak temperature in a specific place. The Ship would be two faced. The one side with the heat shield would be used to enter the atmosphere of Mars. The other side would have the horizontal landing engines and any landing gear needed. While motorized flaps could be an option, also the landing thrusters could be used to keep the proper orientation of the ship during atmospheric heating. After the burn during entry the thing would have to roll 180 degrees to present its landing engines and landing gear to the surface of Mars.

Gyroscopes are also a possible way to orient the ship during the entry and landing process.

It is possible that this ship may not need raptor engines once it reached LEO. They could be reduced in number or perhaps deleted. You might want to partner it with a Starship with raptors to push it. It would have propellants in it's tanks, that it would share with the "Pusher Ship".

I realize the limits of my ability, but you never know, the blind pig and the acorn thing.

At least I provided the notion.

It can certainly be rejected.

One other thing I like about this is if you refilled the ship, its horizontal engines may be able to levitate it off the surface, so before you embedded it in soil and ice you could move it horizontally. The flanges might allow it to act a bit like a hovercraft.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 18:37:01)

Void · Today 09:05:20

(th) has asked an interesting question: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p232255
Which involves a concept that Calliban is working on: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 57#p232257

This would relate to building a Stone Arch over a horizontal Starship, instead of a Air/Water/Ice inflatable arch I have suggested.

I agree that the stone arch may be superior. And when it can be implemented it would be of good use.

I feel that a horizontal Starship would not have to have all of its surfaces covered by an arch, Ice or Stone. And of course it you wanted to access the surface of Mars you could not cover it all.

So, basically I am suggesting a "Storm Shelter" about radiation protection, where the greater amount of human activity might occur, such as a bedroom, and a telepresence station to interact with robots from. And then whatever else you needed.

Much of the rest of the ship might have compressed regolith bricks laid on it, to an extent to protect from thermal fluctuations. But not so much weight that the walls of the ship might collapse if the ship decompressed.

Some people have already suggested building with plastic and ice on Mars, at higher latitudes, so the ice arch is not necessarily a silly idea. https://www.marsicehouse.com/
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0 Image Quote:

I suppose you might use both horizontal Starships and Ice Houses in the early days of Mars habitation.

I have made the assumption that the ship might land entirely horizontally. However, another option would be that it do a tail landing with a planned topple. You might have only two peg-leg landing legs on the tail end, touch down on them and then intentionally topple the ship with small engines and use small engines to drop the ship horizontal without breaking it. Since the ship wants to tip. Then make it tip as is desired, not as a ship-wrecker.

The other alternative is to land the ship and use some heavy equipment to tip it horizontal.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The question of how to get a Horizontal Starship to Mars, that is one specifically built up to tolerate the treatment, would be helped by either a Starboat (Mini-Starship) or a Starship Shortie.

Elon Musk does not want to create the Starboat, as he wants to put all focus possible on the current Starship System.
Dr. Robert Zubrin has wanted the Starboat, but it might not come for some time.

So, I have suggested the Starship Shortie. That would be a Starship with as reduced size of length that can actually be a machine that can fly and fly to Mars.

In any case a smaller ship can have value, many people think. But a Shorty may not have enough capacity for propellants to go from LEO to Mars and Land.

If we were to mate a Starboat, or Shorty with a Horizontal Starship, that problem might be solved.

The Shorty or Starboat would have the raptors and the Horizontal ship would have most of the propellants.

We would presume that Freighters would have been landed at the build sites that the small ship and Horizontal ship would target to land at.

3 Ship Interplanetary travel configuration:

The "Horizontal" ships are basically propellant depots for the small ship. The Small Ship might have 4, 6, or 9 raptor engines. I leave it open as to if the horizontal ships would retain raptors after ascending to LEO.

Obviously you would not want to run too much thrust for what I show in the picture.

Depending on resources of propellants, these may all land separately upon arrival to Mars, or if a means to achieve orbit of Mars were possible, maybe one horizontal ship would remain in orbit for return to Earth with?

I don't want to press the matter too much, I am already in a deep pool of speculation. Lets say we don't yet solve for return to Earth, but try to solve for base building.

A Starboat is suggested by Dr. Robert Zubrin to be able to return to Earth from Mars. Perhaps a Shortie could as well.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 09:57:05)

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Para Terra formation of ice worlds with Nuclear and Water

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