Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-09 07:35:10

Today is Google Meeting Day for NewMars....

if present plans hold, we will open the Waiting Room a bit before 1 AM UTC, 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire.

Reminder for optical discussion: The paper at the link below is from 2008 - Use of optical cable to feed thermal process:

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/leagi … ra4011.pdf

Solar Thermal Power System for Oxygen
Production from Lunar Regolith:
Engineering System Development

Topics for this week might include:

Optical fiber discoveries
Space tugs, Three Phases, other items
SpaceNut's house project (if he is able to stop in)
kbd512's analysis of air forces
Welding not needed but what instead?
New items

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-09 17:33:34

Equipment check ... Equipment and software seem to be working.

I am unsure if anyone is going to want to think about space tonight ... The US is putting on the Super Bowl, and much of the Nation's attention is going to be focused there. We have not seen any of our European members, and the late hour in Europe is an understandable reason.

I've been invited to watch the Super Bowl with friends, and am planning to head over shortly.

I'm the only Admin set up to host the Google Meeting at this point.

Decision time! I'll plan to return home to see if anyone is in the Waiting Room at the top of the hour.

If no one is present, I'll assume the Super Bowl has priority.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-09 19:00:17

Waiting Room is open

I'm not expecting anyone but to be consistent, the meeting needs to open every week.

The Philadelphia Eagles are ahead 17 to 0 ...

kbd512 dropped in .. we're off and running ...

GW joined ... We ended up with a ** very ** interesting discussion.

We started with a deep dive into ion propulsion, and the document at the link below will provide a glimpse of the knowledge available.

https://electricrocket.org/2019/259.pdf

Document ... in space propulsion ... electric propulsion

Update later: The Eagles ended up with a solid 40 and the Chiefs reached 22 during the final five minutes.

Some feedback I picked up on the way home was that this was a blowout rather than a slugfest, and a bit disappointing on that score.

However, another way of looking at this is that Pittsburgh was simply up for this game, and everything they tried worked.

The week ahead in NewMars forum is sure to bring new surprises as members investigate areas of interest, and share glimpses with the rest of us via posts.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-15 20:33:15

The Google Meeting for Sunday February 16th 2025 is on schedule.

If all goes to plan, the waiting room will open a bit before 1 AM UTC, 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-16 18:56:23

The Google Meeting is set up for this evening...

The Waiting room is open.

Time is 55:39

GW Johnson is already here.

kbd512 joined and we were off to the races!

Post meeting report:

This was another interesting and productive meeting.

We covered several topics in which kbd512 is a participant, and several in which GW is a participant.

Two really interesting ideas came out of the meeting, and probably others that I missed.

First, kbd512 took up Calliban's Steam Balloon idea and after a look at GW's Steam Image, kbd512 thought of using a Fresnel lense to heat water to keep a steam balloon aloft. We had started down the track of using photovoltaics to heat water to keep the balloon aloft, when kbd512 suggested just cutting out the middle man. The system would depend upon solar energy to stay aloft, so there would be a concern about the day/night cycle on Earth.

The group considered the use of microwaves to heat water inside a balloon. That system could probably be used to achieve a Guiness Book of Records listing, for whatever that is worth.

GW's cows are safely back in the pasture after finding a way out. Fortunately these were more cooperative critters than might have been the case.

kbd512 brought us up to date on his study of optical systems.

The second idea is related to the diameter of optical fiber needed to collect power from a solar sail system. I gather that there is a limit to how much power an optical fiber can carry, so (hopefully) kbd512 will be updating his post about that

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-21 11:26:15

We have another Google Meeting coming up.

We have multiple topics already in motion to discuss.

PhotonBytes recently introduced an interesting idea that might be fun to consider.

PhotonBytes created a topic with amusing title of "15 days to Mars using Chemical rockets" (or words to that effect).

I'd be interested to know if such a flight is possible, assuming the gross national product of the world's Nations were allocated to the effort.

I asked Google for figures on the distance to Mars:

How far away Mars is from Earth depends on where the two planets are in their orbits. The distance from Earth to Mars can be anywhere from 33.9 million miles (54.6 million km) to 250 million miles (401 million km). On average, the distance is about 140 million miles (225 million km) from Earth to Mars.
Distance from Earth to Mars | Facts & Measurement - Study.com
Study.com
https://study.com › ... › General Science Lessons

Mars recently approached as close to Earth as it is going to get in the current cycle. Today the distance is 120,584,000 km.

I asked Google to find a calculator to determine the velocity needed to reach Mars in 15 days if the distance is 120,000,000 km...

The answer came back as 92.6 km/s

The velocity of a space craft at Mars would need to be reduced by nearly the same amount, but the time needed for deceleration would subtract from the 15 days for the flight.

In addition, the time to accelerate would detract from the time available to travel at full velocity.

Thus, the velocity needed in the coasting phase would be far above 92.6 km/s

This is certainly an interesting speculation.

A Python program should be able to perform the calculations needed to study/evaluate various flight plans.

Perhaps programs already exist that perform this or similar calculations.

One possible outcome is that chemical energy simply cannot perform this feat, if it is implemented with the very best hardware humans can create.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-22 07:44:40

The recent contribution of PhotonBytes to the forum, of a 15 Day flight scenario Earth-to-Mars inspired GW Johnson to take a look at the problem.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p229922

If we assume an advanced propulsion system (such as fusion) then the scenario looks quite realistic. I am hoping this topic might be added to the agenda for the upcoming meeting on Sunday.

We also can look forward to an update on kbd512's research which might include (but is not limited to) optical systems with fiber to collect photons.

In last week's meeting we reviewed the power carrying capacity of fiber. It is much less than I had thought, but the difficulty of sending photons from various points on the outstretched collection panels can be resolved by adding fiber. The result will be increasing thickness of the optical delivery system as we approach the central spine of the system. The thickness of the collection system depends upon the power carrying capacity of an individual fiber, and while that information was included in last week's meeting, I lost track of it.

Given the data provided last week, and given the assumption of 1000 watts/square-meter at LEO, we should be able to compute the number of fibers needed to bring the photons collected by a 1 centimeter wide collection strip to the Central Spine. I am looking forward to learning what that number will be.

It should be possible to compute the dimensions of the photon collection system with confidence, based upon the data presented last week.

It is highly likely other topics will come up ...

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-23 07:32:00

The regularly scheduled Google Meeting is on track for 1 AM UTC, 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire.

We have a number of items active in the forum over the past week, in addition to ongoing items such as the optical research by kbd512.

GW Johnson has been making progress on a number of fronts.

PhotonBytes has contributed several surprising ideas to the mix.

Spaniard has begun an effort to revise the measure of time used by scientists, astronomers and engineers. This should be interesting.

Terraformer and Void have been discussing a variety of life supporting structures that might be designed for remote locations in the Solar system.

Update: I have extended an invitation for a member of the NSS North Houston chapter to attend this evening.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-23 18:38:56

System Check was necessary on this occasion. Zoom was holding the camera from a previous session. There may be a better way to persuade Zoom to let go, but to save time I just rebooted. The system is working now, and I'll be opening the waiting room a few minutes before the hour.

It is 38:15 UTC right now

GW Johnson has produced a (small) flood of new documents about the asteroid and about the Orion propulsion system.

The waiting room is open at 57:57 UTC

Post meeting report:

We were joined by a member of the North Houston NSS chapter. GW Johnson was delayed , so our guest left.

kbd512 reviewed his research on optical coupling for a space vessel, and that work will continue into next week.

GW arrived and we were off to the races once again. We reviewed slides GW has prepared for the asteroid topic and for the 15 days to Mars topic.

A detail from the 15 days discussion is that we (or at least I) learned that the shaped charge for the Orion pulsed propulsion system is quite different from what I was imagining. The drawing already posted on the forum in the 15 days to Mars Any Method topic shows a small object to the right of the pusher plate of a space vessel. That object has a gray/brown color on the left side, and a bright red box on the right.

The bright red box is the fission component, and the gray/brown blob is a supply of mass that the electromagnetic wave from the nuclear explosion is going to accelerate toward the pusher plate. That is the mass that I was looking for that is needed to propel the ship.

***
We went into great detail examining the asteroid intercept diagrams. I've had difficulty understanding the relative velocities in play in this situation, but made some progress in the highly interactive format of a live online meeting. The bottom line is that all existing space faring nations able to put a probe on Mars will have the capability to put a probe on this asteroid as it flies by in 2028.

I am interested in seeing that capability utilized to make a serious effort to mine the asteroid of material it contains, and direct that material to a location where it would be useful, such as the Moon. Since we do not know the nature of the asteroid at this point, it is pure speculation to assume it is a stony rubble pile. On the other hand, the chances it is a stony rubble pile are greater than even, because (my understanding is) the greater number of random objects in the Solar system are stony rubble piles.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-02 07:09:30

Today is Google Meeting day for NewMars.

If current plans hold we'll open the waiting room a few minutes before 1 AM UTC - 7PM Houston - 8 PM New Hampshire

Topics that may be of interest include:

Calliban's trip to the Netherlands
kbd512's work on Optical Plane Deep Space vessel
GW Johnson's new video to Elevator Pitch for Orbits course
Renewed interest in Orion propulsion system (new book by George Dyson)
Many other possible topics from recent NewMars posts or other sources

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-02 17:42:00

Equipment check:

Hardware, software and the Internet appear to be working.

Plans remain on track to open the waiting room at 1 AM UTC.

Sophia the chicken will not be joining the meeting, I am told.

We might be lucky enough to get a glimpse of KT the cat.

Update at 00:58 UTC

The waiting room is open.

Post meeting report ...

This was a lively meeting!

We opened with kbd512's work on an optically powered deep space vessel.

When GW arrived we took a look at his Elevator Pitch for his course on Ellipses >> Orbital ellipses >> Analyzing and explaining asteroid ellipses.

kbd512 has a valuable suggestion that the marketing might be modifed for younger customers. The present version is designed for the kind of audience that would be in attendence at an NSS meeting. kbd512 suggested adding color and motion for a younger audience. I think this is a most helpful suggestion.

Then we branched into discussion of how kbd512 can design his home built aircraft and more importantly, get back to work on it, despite all the other demands on his time.

After that we took on the high energy topic of the Orion pulsed explosion space vessel, and how the concept might be updated to have value in mining an asteroid. The discussion branched into how to process materials found in space to make a massive space ship with heavy metals, and the high energy happened when we considered a NASA paper that estimated it will take 50 years to be able to make anything out of metal in space.

Now that the meeting is over, and I've had a chance to think about the discussion, I think excellent points were made on both sides of the question of timing. The NASA estimate of 50 years may be about right, for a metal smelting plant to go into operation, but on the other hand, the knowledge needed is available in what humans have learned on Earth over centuries.

I suspect that if an entrepreneur like Jeff Bezos or others in the space business were to fund a team to build a small scale test smelter for launch next year, that could be done. I hope that happens, because the sooner humans begin to build up knowledge of how to work with materials in vacuum and microgravity using solar energy for melting, the sooner we can learn how to separate elements from each other or to merge them into useful alloys.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-09 06:26:16

Today is Google Meeting day for NewMars...

Thanks to Daylight Savings Time in the US, we are back to midnight UTC, which is still a stretch for our European members.

A flyer announcing GW Johnson's class on orbital ellipses was distributed yesterday at the March meeting of the North Houston chapter of NSS.

GW has created updates to the course that I'll be adding today.

NewMars members are welcome to print the flyer from the link in the GW Johnson topic, and pass it along to friends or acquantances who might be interested, or to teachers who might have students who might be interested,

Other topics that may come up include the Optical Plane Deep Space Tug. It appears that collecting photons is feasible, using existing optical technology, so now our attention will shift to the design of an apparatus able to convert the energy in the photons to movement of hydrogen molecules through a nozzle to produce thrust.

Update:

GW Johnson has prepared a course on ellipses >> orbits that we are hosting in the NewMars forum. The North Houston chapter of NSS distributed the flyer at their meeting on Saturday 2025/03/08.

The flyer is available via dropbox at this post.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 66#p230166

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-09 18:00:35

Waiting room is open...

Post meeting report:

kbd512 and GW Johnson were in fine form once again.

The topics covered ranged far and wide in every sense.

We ended up on Lake Waco where GW sailed as a youngster, and learned how to water ski behind a catamaran.

Sailing behind a sailboat is quite different from skiing behind a power boat.

***
Leading off the hour, kbd512 brought us up to date on his thinking about the photon powered deep space vessel.

I attempted to capture some of the ideas that flew by, but missed some ...

40 megawatts of power – kbd512
1 kilonewton of thrust
1 kilogram of mass
Used a real thermal rocket engine as a model
****
Issues …
mass of the ship (mass of optical collection device)
Engine can be at front …
Ceramic for the engine (pipe to accept heat)
***
Issues:
steering
how maintain flat surface
What is core geometry for the engine itself
How pressurizing the propellant?

The photon collection area to deliver a mere 40 megawatts is minuscule compared to the large space tug concept I've been studying.

As a reminder for folks who might read this but did not read the earlier work, a photon collection surface a kilometer long by 200 meters wide would deliver 2000 megawatts to the heat engine, and kbd512 estimated that would produce 5 tons-force by spending 5 kilograms of hydrogen per second.

***
We spent some time talking about GW's course on ellipses.

We have accomplished quite a bit over the past couple of years, in an effort to make the course available to the public, and to publicize it.

We still have some work to do, and GW has agreed to at least start to think about the missing elements.

I am currently focusing upon the output of a document. We've advertised that a student taking the course would be able to create a document similar to the one that features asteroid 2024 YR4 as it is expected to swing by the Earth in 2028. I am concerned about creating the actual document, which requires a set of skills that are not included in the course at present.

GW has been working to address the up-front problem of mathematics readiness. The 0.5 Class attempts to help a student pick up an understanding of algebra if the student has not yet had that material in class.

In short, while the course is ready for the first adventuresome students it is very likely still subject to improvement.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-14 09:59:01

In planning for Sunday's Google Meeting, I've prepared a list of questions about how the photons collected by the proposed Optical Plane system would be used to heat liquid hydrogen to produce thrust.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 20#p230320

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-15 16:36:05

In preparation for Sunday's Google Meeting, I have determined that the desired temperature for hydrogen gas to be emitted from kbd512's Optical Plane Deep Space tug is 3000 Kelvin, which is above the melting point of quartz.

Some very interesting physics/engineering is likely to be in discussion Sunday evening.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-16 07:00:05

Considering kbd512's Optical Plane Deep Space Tug concept:

GW Johnson has proposed a solution to the challenge of an optical interface between the photon supply lines and the hot volume where hydrogen gas is heated.

Suggestions are available for materials that might work for the heating system.

tahanson43206 wrote:

In preparation for Sunday's Google Meeting, I have determined that the desired temperature for hydrogen gas to be emitted from kbd512's Optical Plane Deep Space tug is 3000 Kelvin, which is above the melting point of quartz.
Some very interesting physics/engineering is likely to be in discussion Sunday evening.

If current plans hold, the waiting room will open just before Midnight UTC, 7 PM Houston and 8 PM New Hampshire.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-16 17:57:01

The waiting room is open...

Welcome to all who stop by!

kbd512's Optical Plane vessel is on the agenda

(th)

kbd512 · 2025-03-16 18:05:48

tahanson43206,

Unfortunately, I'm very sick right now, so I won't be joining.

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-16 18:13:43

For kbd512 ... thanks for checking in despite feeling bad!

You used the word "very" so I will offer the strongest best wishes for recovery as soon as possible!

Post meeting follow up....

We spent about 30 minutes looking at images related to the Optical Plane concept.

GW Johnson prepared slides for the meeting, and we discussed them at length, along with various images.

It appears that prior work done to design the hot core of a solar powered propulsion system may apply to this design.

One detail that GW pointed out is that there is a tradeoff in designing the surface of the heat exchanger. The surface might be made with tiny dimples to enhance thermal conductivity, but doing so would increase turbulence and drag. There may be a configuration that provides the best performance.

Another detail is that the turbopump that pushes hydrogen into the system is going to have to work against the pressure in the heating chamber, just as turbopumps work against the pressure in chemical rocket combustion chambers today.

Update next day: Another detail I remembered overnight is GW's suggestion of a keel for the ship, to hold propellant, and to provide the strength the ship needs to transfer forces.

Today it occurred to me that the ship kbd512 is imagining has some similarity to a Manta Ray.

I'd been thinking of the outstretch wings as square, but they could be curved easily enough. The total surface area is what matters/

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-22 16:40:57

The next weekly Google meeting is coming up, and the Optical Plane space vessel is in active discussion.

I am hoping we can clear a newly discovered hurdle tomorrow.

We appear to have the supply of photons pretty well solved, but how to convert those to thrust appears to be almost completely unknown.

There is an opportunity for someone (member or reader) to help to break the (apparent) log jam.

The event is scheduled for the usual time, Midnight UTC, 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire.

Update:

The original idea for a solar powered space vessel in NewMars, as in development in the Focus topic in Interplanetary Transportation was limited specifically to NOT using electricity, but instead using thermal energy.

While that idea remains very much alive, the technical challenges are so great that i would like to see at least some time spend on harnessing the solar energy collected by the Solar Plane to drive an electric system. If we assume the same propellant flow rate of 2 kilograms of hydrogen per second, and we apply 40 megawatts of arriving photons to the problem, what thrust might be achieved if we accelerate those molecules using an electrical system?

Hydrogen can certainly be ionized by solar thermal energy, and the ions can be accelerated by magnetic or electric forces.

Can the entire 2 kilograms of mass be ionized and accelerated, and if so, what velocity is achievable?

Update: It appears that 50% efficiency of conversion to electricity may be possible. That leaves 50% of incoming energy for heating propellant.

This leads to the possibility of a hybrid concept, incorporation features of VASIMR and features of the solar thermal engine of the 1950's.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-23 17:37:09

Setting up for tonight's Google Meeting

The waiting room is open.

Post meeting follow up:

GW Johnson and kbd512 attended this evening.

The focus of the meeting was the Optical Plane Deep Space vessel. Because the optical part of the ship seems to be stable, this meeting spent almost all the available time on the heating subsystem.

To my knowledge nothing quite like this has been attempted before. That is due in large part to the advance of optical fiber and related optical technology. The fact that this appears not to have been tried before guarantees that the concepts in play are going to encounter stiff resistance as the Real Universe peers intently over everyone's shoulder.

This evening we reviewed the work of GW Johnson, as published in this forum.

At the conclusion of vigorous discussion, it appears that (with any luck) GW may attempt to create one or more drawings to show the vision as it is evolving. Specifically, it is proposed to heat the outer wall of the gas heating chamber, rather than the inside as imagined by the folks back in the 1950's who first started thinking about using solar power to deliver energy to a propellant.

It is advances in optical technology for fiber optical communications that allow us to return to take another look at this propulsion method.

***
For the record .... I am also looking at VASIMR to see if the improved optical system might help with that concept. Things don't look promising as of 2025/03/23 ... Even with 50% solar cell efficiency assumed, the VASIMR technology was only able to produce 500 Newtons, which is paltry compared to the target thrust of 5000 Newtons.

While I don't fully understand the VASIMR idea, it appears that a major hurdle is the difficulty of ionization of gas to make propellant. Only quantities on the order of 250 milligrams of propellant are processed by the baseline VASIMR system in one second. The objective of the current study is to process a full kilogram of mass.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-29 18:34:48

We are on track to hold the weekly Google Meeting for NewMars at Midnight UTC 7 PM Houston 8 PM New Hampshire.

We may have more than one topic to consider, but the Optical Plane Space Vessel is front and center...

Thinking ahead to tomorrow evening's meeting ...

1) Discuss the paper that shows kbd512's idea was proven effective.

2) Let's see if we can agree that thrust has to pass through the Center of Gravity

3) Material that is going to be used to make the hot bulb and the exit port with expansion bell.

Can those be the same or (more likely) are they different, and if different, how can we attach them?

All the thrust generated by the hot bulb is going to be trying to pull the hot bulb out of the exit port assembly.

4) Let's plan to study the J2 SLS motor mount and compare it to what is needed to move the entire engine compartment.

The J2 SLS motor mount pours ALL the thrust generated by the engine through a softball sized ball bearing.

In the case of the Optical Plane Space Vessel, it is looking as though the entire engine compartment has to drive a single ball bearing on the vessel.

If this turns out to be true, then we have two significant challenges:

A. How to deliver photons to the Hot Bulb while the Hot Bulb is moving around
B. How to deliver LH2 to the top of the Hot Bulb while the Hot Bulb is moving around

The NASA engineers working on J2 for SLS did not have the first problem, but they most certainly had the second problem. They solved it by creating a flexible pipe able to take compression or torsion (twisting) while maintaining the massive pressure of the fuel feed working against the chamber pressure of the engine.

In preparation for tomorrow's meeting, I attempted to work with ChatGPT4o and DALL-E to create new updated images for the Optical Plane Space vessel.

Unfortunately, DALL-E used a small commercial jet as the model for it's artwork, and while the image was stunning, it was completely inappropriate.

I might be forced to create a model in Blender, but that option would at least provide the correct proportions for the vessel. As a reminder, we are talking about a vessel that will look a little bit like this:

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-29 20:17:33

ChatGPT4o and I ran another try with DALL-E and this time we got a flying saucer as a bonus!

What DALL-E ** did ** do was to clean up the drawing, which I appreciate.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-30 16:54:12

System check went well. The waiting room will open a bit before midnight UTC 7 PM Houston 8 PM New Hampshire.

Main topic is Optical Plane vessels:

1) Space Tug
2) 500 Passenger version

New Mars Forums

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