A special case for Titan

Void · 2025-03-18 18:46:18

I am very willing to see this material moved if that is your desire (th).

I had been considering geothermal power on Titan and thinking also of methods to radiate heat away from titan. Of course, this is about making Titan a useful asset to a solar system civilization.
Perhaps I can be corrected or not, but until then, I will make a tentative claim that I see some new things. If they have been considered somewhere or sometime else, then of course I will consider that discovery useful as well.

If what I think can work, then this can grant a new category of world, that spacefaring civilizations might consider valuable. And that is exciting to me, as it just might be possible that a world useful may lurk in a near Star system, even if that star system has no Earth like planet.

Other people have already suggested the utility of Titan, so I will not claim much more than they have already provided, but I do see some things that can be linked together.

So, I have been pondering habitats on Titan, below ground, on the ground, and in high towers. I have wanted to make high towers that float and was thinking of hot air balloons as a demonstrated method.

Hydrogen, and Helium would be options, but it finally occurred to me to find out if Methane could be a lifting gas. It can be, it preforms less well than Hydrogen and Helium, but is a lifting gas on Earth, and I would expect it to work well on Titan. If the Methane were warmer than the outside Nitrogen/Methane mix on Titan, then it would lift even better.

https://www.naa.edu/lifting-gas/#:~:tex … han%20them.
Quote:

Methane is the main component of natural gas and is applicable for occasional use as a lifting agent. Methane molecules are larger than hydrogen and helium and bring the benefit of leaking slower than them.

Presuming the materials to construct it could be procured, you could build towers filled with Methane gas, to float from the ground, be anchored to the ground, I suppose. So, you could use compressive strength to keep the towers upright, but also the lifting force of heated Methane.

If you had an energy source(s), then you could keep the Methane heated.

The atmosphere of Titan is very substantial both in surface pressure and the altitude of the atmosphere.

So, to start with let's consider geothermal as a heat source.
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 20GL087481
Quote:

Plain Language Summary
The Cassini mission has revealed that Titan is an active icy moon with organic molecules forming in its atmosphere and a climate characterized by methane rains. Titan also harbors a deep ocean that decouples the ice shell from the inner solid layers. Methane and water ice react to form clathrate hydrate that acts as a thermal insulator. Previous one-dimensional models of Titan's thermal evolution suggested the formation of a clathrate crust early in Titan's history, before the ice shell started to crystallize. Here, we follow with two-dimensional numerical simulations of thermal convection in the ice shell that take into account the insulating effect of a clathrate crust. We show that the lithosphere thickness is reduced significantly thus providing a pathway for the exchange between the surface and the ocean. In addition, the amount of heat transferred by convection is reduced, which limits the freezing rate of Titan's ocean. The clathrate crust destabilization by impacts or cryovolcanism can also provide the methane needed to replenish the atmosphere. Titan's methane cycle significantly influences the ice shell structure and its dynamics thus playing a role similar to water on the Earth which not only shapes its surface but also affects its interior dynamics.

So, could there be fluids like Methane and maybe even brine flowing in the crust? If there is an insulating clathrate crust, then that may be within reach.

So maybe geothermal can be of use on Titan.

It seems solar driven wind might be as well.
https://www.sciencealert.com/titan-has- … -of-the-us
Quote:

Wind power on Titan is a potential source of energy for future colonists or explorers. Titan has strong winds in its upper atmosphere, but not on its surface. Small wind turbines could be used to power habitats, but they would not produce much electricity. Floating wind turbines would require advanced technology. A wind turbine that outputs 35-145VDC could be connected to a Titan generator. Titan's atmosphere has a large circulation system that transports warm air from the south to the north.

So, I am guessing you need to get above much of the smog before the winds get strong. But a floating tower(s) might go up to the 333 millibar level and maybe even higher.
Even though the sunlight is not of a high magnitude on Titan, as Titan does not rotate every 24 hours like Earth winds play a greater role in the redistribution of heat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Titan
Quote:

15.9 Earth days
The day cycle on Titan, Saturn's largest moon, lasts 15.9 Earth days.

Other sources of energy could be Fission Nuclear, Orbital Solar (With very large mirrors), and Fusion Nuclear.

These towers being filled substantially with warm Methane would be a step above the natural conditions of Titan for habitability. Robots might work well in them. Humans would need a suit to keep the Methane, and their breathing process separated. Explosion and fire risks would have to be handled, if Oxygen is to be present in quantity.

A room temperature of 20 degrees C might be ideal.

I have for a long time worried that if large amounts of energy were to be deployed to the surface of Titan, an instability would be generated, but it these towers project above the smog, then they can serve as radiators, and the smog will block the infrared radiation from reaching the surface, to a large degree.

If the towers were high enough then you might see the celestial sights like the sun and the stars, and on parts of Titan, you might see, Saturn itself.

Titan might be quite good for something like Starship because of "Methane", and a very thick atmosphere, rather low gravitation. The terminal velocity should be favorable on landing. And the ship might be towed to the top of a tower to launch into space. But perhaps winged spacecraft would be used.

So, maybe we have another category of world, that could be very useful to spacefaring aliens, robots, and humans perhaps.

But sadly, gas giant worlds are rare.

But there could be worlds that are not moons that might be a bit like Titan. Vesta might have gown to the size of Earth or Mars, if Jupiter had not interfered. In that case it would have been a "Cold Terrestrial", and might have a Nitrogen dominated atmosphere with some Methane.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-03-18 19:29:12)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-18 19:04:44

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time.

Index:

(th)

Void · 2025-03-19 21:12:37

I think I have some additional materials to add to the "Case for Titan".

There is some reason to be concerned about rocky materials with metals on Titan. However, some news has been reported that the dunes at the equator of Titan may be of Comet dust. In any case I presume that cosmic dust has been falling to Titan for a long time, maybe billions of years even.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/tit … Conference.
Quote:

Titan’s dark dunes could be made from comets
The origin of the rippling sands has long been a mystery

Image Quote: 031324_no_titan-dunes_feat_REV.jpg?resize=1380%2C776&ssl=1
Quote:

Titan’s dunes (dark regions) can be observed in this infrared composite of the largest of Saturn’s moons, which was taken in 2015 by NASA’s now-defunct Cassini spacecraft.
NASA

Another item is the Tholen's in the atmosphere of Titan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tholin
It might be that they could be treated as a resource, perhaps to make things similar to plastics?
If so then the amount of haze might be reduced, perhaps allowing the winds to appear closer to the surface of Titan, and so to be more easily tapped. Also, if towers or buildings similar to Neom, the "Line City" might be built: https://line-neom.com/
Image Quote:

Resembling radiator fins, they never-the-less could be well insulated, at least at first. They also might be constructed in such a way as to funnel the winds.

Massive energy resources might become possible.
1) Orbital solar might be a big thing in the orbits of Saturn, probably using very large mirrors. The energy could be beamed down to the line cities.
2) Fission might be a big thing if it becomes possible to access the cores of Asteroids and small moons.
3) Fusion may become real, in the end.

So, being able to radiate lots of heat may be very desirable.

If access to large amounts of energy and cooling, are to be true for Titan, then it could make a lot of sense to do a lot of data centers there, as the waste heat could heat the buildings which would serve as radiators. The heat load would be rather constant I think and also perhaps the energy and cooling resources would be fairly constant as well.

Yet another factor already somewhat mentioned is that I presume you could be SSTO for rockets, and yet you would have an excellent atmosphere to aerobrake into and to land with a low terminal velocity.

If you had a heavy load, you might land on the surface, but maybe passengers would land on top of a tall building.

For launching, I presume the top of a tall building might do very well.

We could hope that eventually some other small worlds might be handled similar to this, but Titan looks like the best one so far for chances that it would pay off.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-03-19 21:47:56)

Void · 2025-03-20 18:46:09

If Titan would work out the way I would hope, as in this topic, then the question is if any other Dwarf Worlds, can be developed in similar ways. Unfortunately, it is probably like this to project the future, but still it is a desire to try: https://www.mopop.org/sffhof/a-trip-to-the-moon
Image Quote:

Eris then: https://science.nasa.gov/dwarf-planets/eris/
Image Quote: Artists_c_oncept_of_Eris_and_Dysnomia_far_from_the_Sun.jpeg?w=800&h=600&fit=clip&crop=faces%2Cfocalpoint
There is a globe-map inside of the article that you can drag with a cursor.

It seems possible that Eris may have geothermal energy: https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/4 … kemake.htm
Quote:

Scientists have discovered that the small icy worlds on the edge of the Solar System, particularly dwarf planets Eris and Makemake, could be more suitable for hosting life. These two dwarf planets may have sufficient geothermal activity to support liquid water oceans, as suggested by modeling based on new observations from the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST).
The research, titled "Moderate D/H ratios in methane ice on Eris and Makemake as evidence of hydrothermal or metamorphic processes in their interiors: Geochemical analysis" published in the journal Icarus, points to potential geothermal processes beneath the surfaces of the two dwarf planets situated in the Kuiper Belt beyond Neptune's orbit.

So, Eris may have that in common with Titan.

Also, it may host an atmosphere of Nitrogen and Methane, when closer to the sun. So, with an increased energy input it might be made to have that in common with Titan.

I think if Fusion were a real thing, then perhaps such an atmosphere could be inflated.

It would be nice to think that one of the methods being tried will eventually work. But we already know that a Hydrogen bomb(s) would work. They are just dangerous and messy.

A bit like the spaceship drive Orion, I wonder about a shell well insulated large enough that you could trigger hydrogen bombs inside of it. If it was vacuum inside, then the possibility of a shell that can absorb the energy may be considered. Otherwise, one small sea on Eris itself might host such explosions.

Here is a device that converts gamma rays from nuclear waste to visible light and then uses solar cells to make electricity: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1zOPZV
Quote:

The breakthrough battery, built by researchers at Ohio State University, works by taking ambient gamma radiation from spent nuclear fuel and converting it to light via scintillator crystals. This light is then converted into electricity through solar cells.

So, this invention is only scaled to power a microchip, but it hints at some larger process that could eventually be invented.

A star emits gamma rays, and then the Hydrogen, Helium and other matter is heated by it.

So, perhaps a hollow shell could be charged by nuclear explosions. Perhaps for some time after a charge to emit gamma rays to then be converted to light and then if desired to electricity.

Perhaps the explosions could create something like Aluminum-26.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-26
I think that Aluminum 26 is created from another element, by radiation, but don't recall which.

So, anyway maybe there could be a way to charge a shell of materials, with isotopes that would decay, using a Hydrogen Bomb(s). This then would be like a giant battery. And rather than using gamma rays to heat up a substance for a reactor, the gamma rays could be converted to light, and then if desired into electricity.

So, even if the bombs were flashes in the dark, the battery would give a smoother output of energy.

Sort of an artificial hollow mini-sun.

Once you were out beyond the heliopause, then it might be that Deuterium and Helium 3 could be harvested from the interstellar medium. Small Rogue planets might even collect those things.

Getting metals on Eris is a question mark. However, I think that solar sails from the inner system could bombard the little worlds atmosphere and so put what is needed onto the surface. In reality cosmic dust must have been accumulating over long time anyway, and "Might" be available near the surface.

So, who knows maybe an assortment of similar tiny worlds might exist out into the Oort Cloud(s), and dwarf world hopping might be the way of expansion to other star systems.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-03-20 19:30:23)

Void · 2025-03-21 19:56:16

Of course, Pluto might be such a target as well.

I just viewed a video that indicated that at times Pluto may have an atmospheric pressure of 280 millibar, almost enough to not require a pressure suit.

Geothermal does not seem so sure an energy source, but maybe. There may be cryo-volcanism.

The planet has lots of Nitrogen and also Methane. So, if an atmosphere could be inflated with heat from a source such as fusion or even beamed power.

And then floating buildings filled with Methane might work to have flotation in a Nitrogen atmosphere.

I am not sure that Pluto can hold on to its Nitrogen, but it appears to have much of it. Perhaps an artificial magnetic field might help retain atmosphere.

If Pluto, then did have a substantial atmosphere, then like Titan, SSTO spacecraft with air braking might work very well.

So, on small worlds with Nitrogen and Methane this scheme might work well.

If the Methane filled buildings would be heated by waste heat from data centers, how massive would be the compute of all of these little worlds.

Where might humans fit into such a thing?

Here is that video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC Quote:

Absolutely Everything We Know About Pluto
YouTube
Astrum Extra
4 views
9 hours ago

A wild idea I have about "Outer" worlds, is that they may still be collecting radioactive materials from space periodically, which may allow them to keep interior liquid oceans. Easily I could be wrong, but who knows for sure?

If they can reach Earth, then why not Pluto and Eris?

https://phys.org/news/2023-02-radioacti … rnova.html
Quote:

Home
Astronomy & Space
Planetary Sciences
February 20, 2023
Editors' notes
Radioactive isotopes reach Earth by surfing supernova blast waves, scientists discover
by University of Hertfordshire

And I will make an argument that rogue worlds may be periodically resupplied with new radioactive substances from cosmic violences. So, it may be that some worlds live on for a very long time even in the eternal darkness with stars.

So then if a world could have an atmosphere like Titan, then even better.

I am thinking that this is the sort of floating building on stilts that could be possible on a world like Titan, or even other worlds if you could inflate a Nitrogen atmosphere.

When Titan's atmosphere is so tall, then the building might be very large, mile of km, whatever pleases you. Larger is likely a good plan. The green methane envelope can serve as a radiator, or you might conserve heat by heating mostly the air volume.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-03-21 20:30:53)

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A special case for Titan

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