Building Space Structures which include Ceramics, Ice

Void · 2025-02-12 21:04:07

Note, 2/24/2025, changed title to "Index» Terraformation» Building Space Structures which include Ceramics, Ice" by adding ", Ice"

Generally, space structures are anticipated to be primarily of metal, with windows being ceramic, because we don't have transparent metals. An alternative window might be of some sort of "Plastics".

But I want to explore what useful things could be done by using large amounts of ceramics.

I have been stimulated towards this by some videos.

This one explains how to sinter Lunar regolith at a temperature of 1050 degrees C.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6XWZryfb5A
Quote:

Constructing A Road For Trains Around The Entire Moon
AnthroFuturism
25.9K subscribers

This also inspired me today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-eGu_RGCOI
Quote:

NASA Just Funded A Project to Blow Space Structures Out Of Glass [NIAC 2025]
Fraser Cain

They have their work cut out for them, and I wish them to get it done if it can be done.

They have inspired me to proceed with my own concept now. (The combination of both videos).

The thing about building habitats out of metal alone, is that you exclude the Oxygen and also what we consider to be low quality materials.

My hope at this point is to find a way to assemble ceramic rings out of sintered blocks, and then to re-enforce them with tensile band around their outer perimeters. Then to build things like cylinders with multiple ceramic rings.

OK, we sinter "Puzzle Parts" in #1 (Middle)
We make a ring of them in #2 (Right)
We make a cylinder of rings in #3 (Left).

An annealing oven might be used on each ring to "Cure" it.
Then perhaps tensile banding could be wrapped around each ring on the outer perimeter of it.

And I have not gone any further with this for now, because a first use of such a cylinder might be as workspace for robots in orbit. With just a small bit of synthetic gravity perhaps. And not intending to pressurize the device.

Of course, if you wanted to stack rings vertically on a small world such as the Moon you might be able to do that.

So the point being, if you process regolith, you might want to get some certain metals from it, and perhaps some Oxygen. But after that the remainder might not be worth processing more than to sinter small parts and assemble them into rings, then to anneal the rings. Then to place tensile banding around them.

Then to assemble the rings into a structure such as a cylinder.

For a robot shelter in orbit say of Mars, this might be a good start. I guess further discovery may tell if more than this could be built on the original concepts in this post.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-24 11:03:56)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-13 07:05:36

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time.

Best wishes for success with this innovative concept.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-13 07:08:09

The innovative topic created by Void reminded me of a famous moment in history:

"The Brick Moon" is a science fiction novella by Edward Everett Hale that was first published in The Atlantic Monthly in 1869. It is considered the first fictional description of a space station and an artificial satellite. [1, 2]
Plot: [1]
• The story is told as a journal that describes the construction of a 200-foot-diameter sphere made of bricks
• The sphere is built as a navigational aid, but is accidentally launched into orbit with people on board
• The people survive, and the story also provides the first known fictional description of a space station
Significance: [3]
• The story is an example of science fiction as extrapolation into the near future [3]
• The author correctly predicted the need for four satellites visible above the horizon for navigation, similar to modern GPS [1]
Additional information: [4]
• You can read The Brick Moon as an ebook from Baen Books [4]
• A new edition of The Brick Moon includes a sequel, "Another Brick in the Moon", by Adam Roberts [5]

Generative AI is experimental.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brick_Moon[2] https://www.amazon.com/Brick-Moon-Other … B0875ZMQC1[3] https://www.andrewliptak.com/blog/2014/ … brick-moon[4] https://www.baen.com/the-brick-moon.html[5] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/218 … brick-moon
Not all images can be exported from Search.

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-13 07:20:57

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Everett_Hale

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Reverend
Edward Everett Hale
From The Critic (1901)
Born April 3, 1822
Boston, Massachusetts, U.S.
Died June 10, 1909 (aged 87)
Roxbury, Boston, Massachusetts, U.S.
Education Boston Latin School
Harvard College (1839)
Harvard Divinity School
Occupations
Author historian minister
Children nine, including Ellen Day Hale (daughter) and Philip Leslie Hale (son)
Parent(s) Nathan Hale
Sarah Preston Everett
Relatives Lucretia Peabody Hale (sister)
Susan Hale (sister)
Charles Hale (brother)
Edward Everett (maternal uncle)
Nathan Hale (granduncle)
Edward Everett Hale (April 3, 1822 – June 10, 1909) was an American author, historian, and Unitarian minister, best known for his writings such as "The Man Without a Country", published in Atlantic Monthly, in support of the Union during the Civil War. He was the grand-nephew of Nathan Hale, the American spy during the Revolutionary War.
Life and career

This topic may provide inspiration for architects interested in Void's vision of large ceramic structures in space, as well as engineers interested in the details of how the individual components might be designed to fit together and to maintain position in a large assembly.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-13 08:33:16

Google Books has a copy of The Brick Moon by Edward Everett Hale:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th … frontcover

(th)

Calliban · 2025-02-13 08:52:24

UK gas cooled reactors use concrete pressure vessels. The tensile strength actually comes from steel tensioning cables that put the structure under compression. But it has the advantage that you can swap out the tensioning cables if they show signs of degradation. And very large pressure vessels can be made in this way. A space colony could be built this way too. We need about 2m of cosmic ray shielding for a free space colony. The heat needed for sintering can be provided by concentrated sunlight in space. So it should be cheap. The tensioning cables do not need to be steel. Carbon or glass fibres could work as well.

Void · 2025-02-13 09:51:20

Thanks fellow members, nice stuff!

Per Calliban, may we consider this?

The "Light Scoops" are not to be considered construction plans, rather they signify that if you wanted to you could arrange to bring sunlight into the structure.

Where you have suggested a certain thickness for radiation protection, I suggest a double cylinder of sintered materials, so then 1/2 as thick, but then 2 layers that may protect a inner grey cylinder, that might be more composed of metals.

The green volume between two, sinter and band (Tensile Cable), walls, may be of a lower pressure but does not have to be. I intend a very low spin gravity for the green volume, which would spin counter to the grey volume which might have much greater spin gravity and maybe higher air pressure.

So, the green volume might be 1/3 bar of O2 for the most part, and the grey might be 2/3 bar of N2/O2 mix.

Obviously, the ends of the cylinder do not yet have a provision for radiation protection, but that can be provided for by various means.

This is just suggestion, of a partial concept, more would be expected over time from the minds of many.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-13 09:59:37)

Void · 2025-02-13 21:22:07

So, lately I have been sort of focused on Mars/Phobos/Deimos as an objective that might be able to project desired materials to the more inner solar system. I still hold that idea, but it is also possible that it would make sense to settle and develop Mars/Phobos/Deimos and then go to the main asteroid belt as another settlement pathway. The idea of building from Ceramics and other materials, suggest that nothing is to be waste in the asteroid belt. We have also considered building with water and ice, and of course metals.

We only have some of the information about the asteroid belt that we might want to have. But for the moment, I have my eyes on Vesta. Earth is a Terrestrial Planet we inhabit, and Mars may become a Terrestrial Planet that humans inhabit. Vesta is thought to be the only Terrestrial Dwarf Planet surviving from the early solar system. Because it is battered so badly its status as a Dwarf Planet is questionable, but that is just nomenclature. The battering may have exposed the mantle of the little world.

Like Earth and Mars, it seems likely that Vesta will have the full palate of materials available, and perhaps ores like copper included.

Although it looks like there will be water ice and hydrated minerals, more water might be gotten from other asteroids to bring to Vesta if needed.

There appear to be many tiny asteroids: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180985659/

Some of those might be like Bennu with Carbon, Water, and other things. But if needed water might come from larger objects like 10 Hygea, or Ceres.

If space elevators were to be tried, I would think that Vesta could be a good place to discover their value.

It is possible that it would make sense to dig habitats into Vesta, especially for mining purposes, but as we could make protective structures in orbit connected to space elevators, I think that might be a very good thing to try.

From the previous post and posts before that, can we have another look at this:

The diagram is mostly symbolic, it shows a grey cylinder cross section being in protection from a double walled stony cylinder with tensile wrapping around it. Also, it suggests solar power utilization. It does not show all the possible variations of that.

Anyway, materials lifted from Vesta would not really have waste materials, as all atoms are likely to have some use.

Reviewing this from post #1, here is the beginnings of how to work with stony-ceramic type materials:

So, Vesta, and some other asteroids might end up with a ring of created structure in the geosynchronous orbit, and those connected to Vesta by many space elevators.

That would not be a bad place for people to live, I think.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-14 09:42:34)

Void · 2025-02-14 09:43:16

It has occurred to me that I am moving in the direction of a "Habitable Radiator".

I have added the labels "A, B, C" to indicate floors in this diagram:

Floor C in the green volume, which is largely built of molded, sintered, cast regolith, would have low synthetic gravity most likely.

Floor B which is on top of the green volume, would have even a bit less synthetic gravity. The white volume between the green volume and the grey volume would necessarily have a low pressure. Somewhere between a high vacuum and a low partial pressurization.

Floor A in the grey volume would have the largest synthetic gravity as it would spin much faster than the green volume would.

I have not completed concept for the ends of these cylinders as this initial structure comes before the solutions possible for that set of possible variations of notions. The cylinder ends might allow the conveyance of light from the exterior into the interiors, particularly for the grey volume, or not.

The Grey volume may have the structure of an airplane which can be pressurized, or it could be made stronger than that for a penalty of materials needed.

The Green volume is going to do the heavy lifting as per protection from the hostile space environment.

The grey and green volumes may spin counter to each other or may spin in the same direction as long as this structure is nested into a larger superstructure. This is for the notion of not wanting spinning cylinders to do a gyroscopic flip-flop. I may or may not understand the gyroscopic dangers at this point. In some cases, the Green Volume may not be spinning at all, but be fixed to a super-structure.

The outside of the outside wall of the Green Volume may have radiator fins on it to increase heat loss. If these radiator fins are in the chevron form, and setup as increments, then you not only can radiate from them but they may provide some protection from impactors.

If you are using robots in floor "B", and the white volume, and the grey cylinder is spinning at a high rate, you will need to take care to not allow stuff to start bouncing off the walls that define the white volume.

If you have a large super structure, you might "Bundle" many of these together, to create even better protection from radiation and impactors, but of course this would reduce the effectiveness of the outer wall of the green volume radiating heat.

A trick that might be used to cool the Grey Volume would be to vent a gas out of it, perhaps water vapor, vented into the greater partial vacuum of the White Volume of floor "B". If the temperature and pressure are correct then condensation would not happen, and you might use a vacuum pump to pump the water vapor into the interior of the Green Volume. If you did want condensation in the white volume, then you need a rather low temperature in it. That would be hostile to robotic machinery also. You might also need a higher pressure, which would be less compatible with a fast spin for the Grey Volume.

I think that experiments with this sort of thing might occur in the Mars/Phobos/Deimos situation, but I really like thinking about Vesta for this.

As for our Moon, I guess it is a game of gravity wells and water, Carbon, and Nitrogen for the most part. What is the relative cost for Earth/Moon vs. Mars/Phobos/Deimos vs. Vesta/Asteroid Belt?

I am guessing that if the needs of water, Carbon, Nitrogen can be met for Vesta, then it could have a buildup of a massive ring of structures in it's geostationary orbit, connected to Vesta with a very large number of space elevators.

The need for "Habitable Radiators", is uncertain. If you use solar panels, those seem to be self cooling.

If you use heat engines, then habitable radiators may be of value. If they are pressurized inside then you could grow crops inside of them, and they might also serve as temporary and emergency shelters for humans.

They may be "Dark Farms" where chemicals like Acetate and Oxygen are used to grow thing like Mushrooms, modified plants, Algae, or fungi.

They might have partial or full internal lighting from electricity, to grow plants.

It may be possible to pipe light into the habitable radiators.

But there then is a need to radiate heat.

The radiators may radiate their own heat, or might radiate heat from a heat engine of some kind.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-14 11:13:19)

Void · 2025-02-14 14:19:04

Following up on the previous post, here is a sort of Binocular of Radiator Cylinders, perhaps habitable:

I have next added spin gravity cylinders (Grey), and indicated possible paths for light from mirrors, (Yellow):

As in previous materials, the Green "Habitable Radiators", do the heavy lifting for the Grey Spin Gravity Cylinders.

I am past my Nerd limits, so need to go do something else, almost anything else.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-14 14:32:01)

Void · 2025-02-15 10:19:52

I have made alterations in the drawing:

1, 2, 3, 4, (Blue) suggest windows of bulkheads of glass like materials or metals perhaps.

A, and B suggest passageways between C, D, E, and F.

The end spaces C, D, E, and F, are to have variable pressure. To spin the two grey synthetic gravity devices the pressure needs to be pulled down to allow for maximum synthetic gravity spin.

But periodically I expect that the spin would be dropped and the areas C, D, E, and F can then tolerate higher pressure that humans could maintain good health in, allowing movement between the Clockwise and the Counter Clockwise spinner.

Perhaps spin down would happen like clockwork, maybe 2 times or 3 times in a 24-hour period? Perhaps spinning down from 1 g to 5% of 1 g.

Obviously, you then need very good redundant safeguards to make this setup have a minimum danger to humans.

I do not consider this plan to be perfection, not at all. I would prefer to be replaced with better plans, but for now this is unorthodox suggestion of possibility.

The Counterclockwise half is more sunward than the Clockwise one. This may give better shelter from solar flares to the Clockwise one.

Now it should be possible to imagine ganging an almost unlimited raft(s) of these things to each other, perhaps in orbit of Vesta.

But also the green tubes, that are to be substantially built of Ceramics, could be extended to enormous lengths, and you could have more spinners in those, a bit like a Bamboo Stalk, with many chambers. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Dif … _357922395
Image Quote:

This may make it harder to get light into many of the chambers, through mirrors and windows. But with new flat screen TV, how much time do we look at pictures on a screen relative to how much time we might look though a picture window? Agriculture is mostly likely to be chemical in nature.

But if you wanted a "Sunroom" to go visit, I think that could be arranged.

Also greenhouses with or without synthetic gravity could be built as auxiliary to the main habitation structures.

I will be delighted if people can make improvements on what has been presented here.

So, I am imagining a tangle of these structures all around the geostationary orbit of a world like Vesta, 10 Hygea, Ceres, and others.

The problem of solar energy is not really an issue. Isaac Arthur has suggested that massive thin mirrors at Pluto could serve to power habitats at the orbit of Pluto. I think that the Asteroid belt will be served just fine by massive thin mirrors in microgravity orbits.

This is not to forbid types of nuclear energy or propulsion, they also can be developed.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-15 10:46:12)

Void · 2025-02-15 11:58:41

From the previous post:

I have made alterations in the drawing:
1, 2, 3, 4, (Blue) suggest windows of bulkheads of glass like materials or metals perhaps.
A, and B suggest passageways between C, D, E, and F.
The end spaces C, D, E, and F, are to have variable pressure. To spin the two grey synthetic gravity devices the pressure needs to be pulled down to allow for maximum synthetic gravity spin.

The prior post can explain the above better.

I did not say everything in that post though so I will here.

And this from the prior post:

But also the green tubes, that are to be substantially built of Ceramics, could be extended to enormous lengths, and you could have more spinners in those, a bit like a Bamboo Stalk, with many chambers. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Dif … _357922395
Image Quote:
This may make it harder to get light into many of the chambers, through mirrors and windows. But with new flat screen TV, how much time do we look at pictures on a screen relative to how much time we might look though a picture window? Agriculture is mostly likely to be chemical in nature.

So, a spinner in a bamboo stalk "Cell" might have an explosive decompression but the walls of the "Cell" should limit the decompression making it more survivable. In that case spin would need to be reduced. A bomb exploding the walls of a "Grey Spinner" might not lead to large loss of life from decompression.

Because the largely ceramic "Baboo Stalk" should offer enough protection space suits would not be required to repair the "Grey Spinner".

On the other hand, if an impactor were to puncture though both walls of the "Bamboo Stalk" and depressurize the "Cell", the Grey Spinner may be able to maintain its pressurization sufficiently to protect the people inside of it.

Ending Pending

I expect that the "Grey Spinners" may ride on rails with magnetic levitation, it will not require much of that. This could be done so that the center or rotations can have doors rather than bearings. And again, the idea is even if a door were to pop open, the limited volume of the "Cell" that the "Grey Spinner" was in would limit the depressurization. Ideally after depressurization, the available Oxygen would be like being on a high mountain. Not good for sustained exposure, but acceptable to survive and recover. Of course I hope that the bends could be avoided as well. This would be like a high altitude passenger jet losing pressurization. Not necessarily a mass death event.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-15 12:14:05)

Void · 2025-02-15 21:51:44

It has occurred to me that the physical structure that is starting to emerge from this topic resembles the structure of some plants.

If you have "Stalks" that resemble Bamboo, and then host the major life support in them, then we might attach "Leafs".
This would then be solar power plants that produce electricity and perhaps chemicals, and also perhaps actual greenhouses that to some degree simulate Earth ecology cases.

So then bundles of "Stalks" with leaf's could surround worlds.

In the case of Ceres, defined as a Dwarf Planet, and 10 Hygea, Vesta, and others, perhaps to be called Sub Dwarf Planets, or maybe we could say worlds, a posturing of these in or near orbits of geosynchronous might be possible.

This could perhaps be done for Callisto as well, although without the type of space elevators and geosynchronous orbit that could be done for small world planets.

The ideas of many including G. O'Neill of a habitat that does all, might beget the idea of a connection of specialized organs to handle various functions. In that specialization, efficiency might result. I am also hoping that persistence of form can be established.

I do not particularly feel comfortable with wet soil piled on top of metal cylinder walls. And I do not very much favor centrifuging a thick layer of wet soil at 1 g.

But a stalk(s) with multiple chambers, which does not spin and light weight habitat that does spin within those seems reasonable to me.

But this would not forbid a farm simulation being placed as a leaf-like function attached to stalks. In the future people are not likely to have jobs in the same way that we have had them. So if you wanted to spend some time in a farmland simulation in orbit of Ceres, that should be possible. In fact, Isaac Arthur seems to think that would be possible for an orbit around Pluto.

So to me this seems very adaptive, with a lot of promise. And as others have foreseen, after Mars, it may well be that the Asteroid Belt could be a wonderful place to establish such things.

Ending Pending

I wonder if stalks could be as a twisted pair like DNA, if that would give strength? Nature seems to like that form.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/554793948/ … leic?pro=1
Image Quote: il_1588xN.1385270281_4eme.jpg

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-15 22:12:35)

Void · 2025-02-22 12:18:09

I have so far drifted towards tubular structures in a geosynchronous orbit.

But Pluto/Charon, suggests a possible binary method, that is to emulate Pluto/Charon, using a major asteroid as the subtractive body and to then build a satellite and then binary partner with additive methods using that which is subtracted from the subtractive body.

Here is Isaac Arthur about Pluto/Charon: https://isaacarthur.net/video/colonizing-pluto/

I obviously did not work too hard on this illustration:

(th) has given posts here and also Calliban in post #6:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,906
Email
UK gas cooled reactors use concrete pressure vessels. The tensile strength actually comes from steel tensioning cables that put the structure under compression. But it has the advantage that you can swap out the tensioning cables if they show signs of degradation. And very large pressure vessels can be made in this way. A space colony could be built this way too. We need about 2m of cosmic ray shielding for a free space colony. The heat needed for sintering can be provided by concentrated sunlight in space. So it should be cheap. The tensioning cables do not need to be steel. Carbon or glass fibres could work as well.

So, as a parent body might be mined, the materials extracted could be formed into "Jars", with such tensile assistive methods. The metals and other materials of interest such as volatiles, then the "Tailings" could be formed into such Jars.

If you have a cluster of Jars, the spaces between Jars are improved as per harshness of deep space, and so, clustering gives value, as the Jars also protect each other from radiation, temperature swings, and impactors.

A Jar then could be pressurized as little or more than is desired. Some may be almost vacuum, and some might be farms. Jars with less pressurization might host synthetic gravity machines.

But Jars with more pressurization might have spin gravity "Wet" rooms. This would be where you may be able to deal with hygiene issues, and in other cases to do things like cooking or sleeping. They would probably have a very low spin gravity.

Adapting life to use small amounts of light as signaling, and large amounts of chemicals also to grow, will begin to adapt humans to live outside of significant gravity wells.

Methods of maintaining clean air and fixing plants to surfaces would need development. I suggest that a cooled centrifuge might condense humidity, and also then collect small particles.

Eventually if we learn how to adapt life to microgravity it may be discovered how to do this for humans.

So, in post #3, (th) has referenced a very old notion like this:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 20,395
Email
The innovative topic created by Void reminded me of a famous moment in history:
"The Brick Moon" is a science fiction novella by Edward Everett Hale that was first published in The Atlantic Monthly in 1869. It is considered the first fictional description of a space station and an artificial satellite. [1, 2]
Plot: [1]

Ceres, Vesta, 10 Hygea, and others might be handled in a manner like this.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-22 12:52:35)

Terraformer · 2025-02-22 14:06:36

One of the most abundant substances available for building habitats out of is ice. Certainly useful as a shield. We've discussed building shellworlds with it, relying on self gravitation IIRC; whilst its (probably...?) not strong enough in tension for anything useful, in compression very cold ice can be comparable to concrete.

Dwarf planets are good places for centrifuge towns, sunk into the ground with angled floors. Imagine an entire world tiled in such hexagons. The planet provides a very large amount of mass to anchor spinning habitats and prevent tumbling, and allows for shielded rail (and foot) transport between them.

Or even a hollow one, formed from a vast geodesic sphere used to connect centrifuge modules together and covered in ice for protection, perhaps with a layer of soil and a thin atmosphere for a microgravity ecology, definitely with a magnetosphere. The comet shellworld idea except we're incorporating the habs into the shell. If they're say 200m long 100m diameter, each hab has about six hectares of surface area, whilst taking up idk two hectares of the shell (the ends are around 0.8 Ha, I'm not trying for precise design here).

A shellworld that's 100km across will have a surface area of 31,000 km^2 approximately 100,000km^2 of habitat area whilst looking suitably planet like from the spacecraft our intrepid heroes are in That is half the size of Great Britain, admittedly broken into chunks; the ideal size per tile is probably 10x bigger. Though there would be less surface area in that case if length is not proportionally increased -- tile size grows with the square of radius, internal surface growth is linear). If they are say 500m rings 1km across, thats 150 Ha per hab (a good sized small town -- city even, if we put our gardens on the room and in basements) but overall we're down to about 24,000km^2. If we increase length to 2km -- proper Onhyl cylinder time -- we're back to our space England (okay, three quarter sized Space England) with 6km^2 chunks. Alas, still not large enough for reintroducing the wolf, but I think foxes might be okay. Of course, an equatorial ringworld...

Void · 2025-02-22 22:14:50

I agree.

Charon could be a very interesting case. I think that in the end, some form of Fusion will emerge that can generate greater energy than it consumes. It is not certain if that would be competitive with solar in some locations, or nuclear fission in others.

But Charon could have a massive cave system carved into it.

And then shelters you have suggested might be built from those extracted materials.

I am going to presume that the ices of Charon hold Deuterium.

I am going to imagine a solar system where stony/metal materials could be projected from sources to a place like Charon.

I like the idea of a building inside of an ice cave where heat pumps pull heat our of the ice cave and into the building. Of course, depending on activities heat may build, up, but evaporative cooling may work quite well for Charon.

I am not sure, but I am imagining that if a magnetic field could be imposed on Charon, then you could vent water vapor to the surface to radiate excess heat, and may fall back as a snow, to be reused.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-22 22:24:51)

Void · 2025-02-22 23:00:14

Indeed Terraformer, I think that Pykrete could be a good foundational material.

The Pluto/Charon subsystem will have the materials to grow organic wood-like fiber with, that and energy of some type.

So, then Pykrete would be as you said icy, but even better than ice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete
Quote:

Pykrete (/ˈpaɪkriːt/, PIE-creet)[1] is a frozen ice composite,[2] originally made of approximately 14% sawdust or some other form of wood pulp (such as paper) and 86% ice by weight (6 to 1 by weight).

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-22 23:02:51)

Void · 2025-02-23 09:21:38

Isaac Arthur has something to say about very long habitats in space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBqGJl3A4tU
Quote:

Topopolis: The Eternal River Space Habitat
Isaac Arthur
807K subscribers

It runs a bit close to some things I have tried to do on a much smaller scale.

It is a good "Dreamer" exercise, to explore how far you can go with a less usual concept.

It is fun, but I have a tendency now to not only adapt space materials into Earth replications, but to also consider how over long periods of time humans can be bio formed to be more tolerant of the space environment.

This is a source of fun and learning, I feel.

(th) has made a request in this post in another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 31#p229931

Apparently, my prior materials are inferior to a proper method of teaching/explaining.

Perhaps this can help:
Just now, I am moving in the direction of "Buds". I see a linear habit as the trunk of a plant, more than a river, and although the emphasis at its core is that "Stem" or "Trunk", branching and "Buds" are enhancements that could be included.

A "Bud" could be internal or external to the "Main", ("Stem" or "Trunk").

OK, we can try this:

I am currently exploring the idea that "Trunks", "Stems", and "Jars" can be microgravity, and of a range of types of pressurization. But they may have "Buds" attached to or inside of them, to provide synthetic gravity.

In general, my notion is to have a private vacuum shell around each centrifuge.

In the drawing, the "Blue" items are what I might call "Spin Locks". They could be variable in spin from 0 to Max, 1 g. Some though would not be intended to provide more than "Sanitary" synthetic gravity.

Such may be a bathroom, a kitchen, or a bedroom or other choices.

The greater volume of pressurized space could be in microgravity. In adapting crops to grow in such, I anticipate future discovery, of how life maintains form in 1 g, and how it responds and tries to cope with microgravity. Over time I anticipate that discovery will say how to stabilize a human moving from 1 to 0 g habitation.

It may eventually be possible to signal chemically, bone maintenance, and muscle maintenance. We don't know how that works yet but perhaps can discover a method.

This leaves at least 2 other major concerns.
1) The inner ear/nausea.
2) Blood Pooling in the upper body.

Both of these might be handled by a cyborg method.
1) Inner Ear? Look into Neuralink, I think.
2) Blood Pooling? a alteration of the vascular system with adaptation methods from internal machines, such as pumps and valves. But of course, this invites blood clots and causes strokes among other things.

So, rebuilding a human body to rapidly adapt to variable gravity fields, microgravity to 1 g, will require some special hard work, to discover what can be used that will not have bad consequences.

Tired of this for now.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-23 10:05:33)

Calliban · 2025-02-23 12:34:34

Terraformer has started a new thread that is relevant to the topic of this one.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11021

If we build a ring space habitat in a toroidal tunnel around an icy dwarf planet, the ring can transfer load to the ice above the tunnel using magnetic levitation. This can balance against the weight of the ice above the tunnel. This should allow the ring to be build as a compressive structure from ceramics, as it eliminates tensile forces within the ring. Here is a diagram to aid visualusation:

Where mg' is the weight of the ice above the tunnel in the dwarf planet's gravity. Provided that this force due to gravity exceeds outward centrifugal force, Fc, then the ring can transfer load to the cave ceiling. This would make habitat construction much easier and cheaper and allows use of compressive materials, as tensile loads are no longer applicable.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-02-23 12:48:02)

Void · 2025-02-23 15:34:29

I like that, but in the asteroid belt we may struggle to make ice a stable building material. Going further out then yes it becomes more likely to be helpful, indeed.

I am currently running on the idea that Mars/Phobos/Deimos will be settled first, with the Moon being a wild card.

Then for a next step I am interested in major dwarf worlds, which could include Ceres, a recognized Dwarf Planet, and other items like Vesta, and 10 Hygea, maybe 16 Psyche.

I am very interested in Vesta, as it is supposed to be the last surviving Terrestrial Dwarf Planet/Dwarf World. (It would probably be a Dwarf Planet if it had not had a big chunk(s) of it blown off by impacts).

Those impacts may have exposed the Mantle. So, we may be able to think about very deep mining and getting into some very interesting ore bodies on Vesta. Maybe Copper, which is going to be harder to get elsewhere. We presume that 16 Psyche may provide Iron/Nickle. Then most of the other big objects in the asteroid belt will be Carbonaceous with some likelihood of ices.

With sun shading perhaps building with ice may have some merit, but for Vesta, I am anticipating lesser amounts of Hydration.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-23 15:41:24)

Void · 2025-02-24 11:05:11

Due to Calliban and Terraformer, I have decided to alter the title of this topic.
Quote from post #1:

Note, 2/24/2025, changed title to "Index» Terraformation» Building Space Structures which include Ceramics, Ice" by adding ", Ice"

So, now we can better consider ice processes in this topic.

I have already been toying with "Habitable Radiators", conversations recent have caused me to expand that.

If I make a mistake in my produced notions, please advise me.

If I expand the idea of a Habitable Radiator to the environment of Antarctica, then I am on the edge of Habitability, but still with the proper tools humans might inhabit the environment, at least temporarily.

I am thinking snow makers, associated with heat engines. I am trying to get a deeper heat sink for a heat engine.

In any case we are going to try not to get frost on the cylinder walls themselves, but it is inevitable that it will so some kind of removal process will be needed. Maybe a robotic scraper?

I think I will let this brew for a while.

Heat engines and such work for Engineers, is a bit beyond my skill levels, but not my imagination.

I would value ideas from the other members, perhaps more capable.

Ending Pending

I will start in Microgravity but assert that it might also be possible to do something like this on worlds with a small gravity well, and perhaps maybe in some way even on Earth.

So, in microgravity, let's suppose a cylinder enclosing a cold interior. If we have a lot of sunlight, we will put a sunshade in place to block the sunlight from the habitable radiator.

What if it snows in microgravity? This is not likely to be a natural process, but the "Habitable Radiator" will not be natural so we could make snow.

So, what air pressure in the radiator? https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

An air pressure of 338.8178 mbar could be habitable. And the vapor pressure could be 72 C, I think.

But since our radiator is to be occasionally habitable, we might drop the air pressure more to lower the vapor pressure.

If we temporarily go down to 123.0665 mbar, then we can get the vapor pressure down to 50 C.

So, we could dump steam from a heat engine into this, and get a nice pressure drop. If too much steam enters then steam may become a significant part of the internal atmosphere, and so the pressure would go up. If we released steam into the center of the cylinder, we might get a bubble of water vapor in the center and that might push the other gasses to the edges of the cylinder.

I would not expect convection as natural to this. But we could induce convection. If we pulled very cold gasses from the edges of the cylinder and squirted it into the vapor cloud, we might induce condensation. Mostly we only want powdered snow. Other condensations would be less useful.

So, a slurry of a carrier gas and powdered snow might be obtained as a coolant.

So, then if we would mix this slurry coolant with the output of a heat engine, then we may drop down even perhaps to supercooled water vapor.

I am quite a bit confused, in these ideas. So, give some allowances, there are probably things for me to learn.

I am looking for a heat engine that eats snow slurry as its solid phase cooling and uses a thermal source for a high-pressure hot side of the heat engine.

I like Oxygen as the carrier gas, but know it would be unfriendly to the turbines, and evaporator process. Nitrogen would be better, if you can get it, but I hate to waste Nitrogen. Argon would be available from Earth, Mars, and maybe the Moon.

CO2 might work well as to be heavy relative to Oxygen, but of course it may be corrosive when mixed with water.

But maybe only CO2? Can you do super critical down to Dry Ice?

Could you generate Powdered CO2 snow and put it into a slurry?

Last edited by Void (2025-02-24 11:36:26)

Void · 2025-02-24 11:47:11

Regarding the last post, perhaps a closed loop CO2 heat engine where you use a powdered snow slurry to cool the cold side of the heat engine, it's closed radiator.

Ending Pending

Void · 2025-02-24 12:54:20

For the last two posts here is a possible implementation of an instance of a machine:

This would perhaps be a way to store a snow cloud in microgravity were, it could be used as a coolant in a batch process.

For instance, if you are running a Metalysis process on some regolith.

So, your power load would not be continuous over time, but in batches of "Runs".

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-24 12:56:27)

Void · 2025-02-25 12:23:14

So, while Isaac Arthur has presented a sort of extremely long rotating cylinder, I now tend towards non-rotating main structures which can be tubular or spherical, depending on how much heat you want to shed and other factors.

I don't consider the I.A. spinning concept as wrong, just it is another option.

I have included the idea of special sections where spin gravity could be as much as 1 g. Also, I have considered the notion that methods to deal with microgravity promoted illnesses could be treated by methods other than 1 g conditioning.

A non-rotating shell, will need air cleaning, and humidity control. So, I anticipate slow rotators inside of the main shells where near the hub, cooling will promote condensation. This may also remove particulates out of the air. The condensed water then of course could be a resource. These rotators might be slow but it may be that plumbing of some sort would work with them. Crops could be grown in them. Of course Mushrooms, Algae, and Yeast come to mind. These will not need light, but perhaps some light would be provided for the sake of humans.

Vascular plant crops might be grown in a similar fashion where some light is provided, but chemicals would mostly promote their growth.

These slow rotators would likely have cowlings around them to reduce the air friction, expenditure of energy.

The relatively small amount of light needed might come from Diodes, or perhaps Fiber Optics could bring some in from the space environment.

So, although over time ice might be developed as a building material, for now I am more looking at Slag/Tailings made into thick structure and having tensile reinforcement wrapped around them.

So, then rock processed for some metals and maybe Silica and Carbon, could contribute the Slag/Tailings to a main structure concept(s).

Ice might also be benefited by embedded tensile structure as well.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-25 12:32:35)

Void · Today 10:45:50

This video mentions using clays from mined asteroids to make useful structures in space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnCgAsxVKRQ Quote:

Mining Asteroids | Daynan Crull, Co-Founder Karman+
Space Business Podcast

They have an eye on water from asteroids, that being hydrated minerals. But then they also hope to use every part of the mined asteroid, if possible, I believe. So, then ceramic parts from clays.

In the early solar system, Aluminum-26 radioactive decay could melt the interiors of many small worlds. The water could have been very cold with salts and perhaps Ammonia in it. Clays would have formed, and so then hydrated minerals. Then many of these worlds got busted up in collisions. And so, then rubble piles with clays and Hydrated minerals, and often Carbon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 10:55:38)

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