Will Mars be terrafromed

mariano2020 · 2020-08-10 21:40:46

As the subject says.

Will mars be terraformed in our lifetime?

kbd512 · 2020-08-10 23:27:46

mariano2020,

First off, welcome to the New Mars Forums.

The short answer to your question is "no" if we're talking about terraforming at a global scale, mostly because Mars doesn't have enough atmosphere to work with. However, that also depends upon how you define terraforming. If we were to enclose an entire canyon on Mars to make it habitable to humans, does that still count as terraforming?

Importing enough resources from other planets or asteroids is not feasible using current propulsion technology. However, if we built the machinery required to generate sufficient power to liberate Oxygen and Nitrogen from the various minerals present in the Martian regolith, then that could feasibly produce a habitable atmosphere for a very large enclosed structure. Terraforming the entire planet would require Nitrogen in quantities that simply aren't available there, so far as we know. Only the gas giants could feasibly provide enough Ammonia for the Sun to eventually convert into Nitrogen, but we're still left with the problem of transporting it to Mars. Unfortunately, thick clouds of Ammonia would also tend to make the Martian atmosphere even less friendly to human life.

SpaceNut · 2020-08-11 18:12:48

We need earth amounts of energy, and time to unlock what we need to make mars more earth like.
After thats none stop building...
In time mars will need stabilizing once more so long as we continue to make the earth surface energy to mars difference.

mariano2020 · 2020-08-23 16:15:14

What about the magnetic fields? I read somewhere that earth has magnetic fields that protect us from radiation. Doesn’t this mean that even with tech we might never be able to replicate this magnetic field?

Note: I might be wrong

SpaceNut wrote:

We need earth amounts of energy, and time to unlock what we need to make mars more earth like.
After thats none stop building...
In time mars will need stabilizing once more so long as we continue to make the earth surface energy to mars difference.

louis · 2020-08-23 17:07:53

mariano2020 wrote:

As the subject says.
Will mars be terraformed in our lifetime?

No, but substantial human-friendly spaces with breathable air and Earth like vegetation can be created on Mars in the next 50 years so humans can enjoy living on the planet.

SpaceNut · 2020-12-06 22:06:58

It appears that there is a question which seems not sustainable....
Best region for life on Mars was far below surface

"Even if greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and water vapor are pumped into the early Martian atmosphere in computer simulations, climate models still struggle to support a long-term warm and wet Mars," said lead author Lujendra Ojha, an assistant professor in the Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences in the School of Arts and Sciences at Rutgers University-New Brunswick.

Seems the input wattage getting to mars is the issue for keeping a warm mars.
https://dx.doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.abb1669

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-05-21 10:40:10

The Atmosphere

http://astrobiology.com/2021/05/non-the … topes.html
Non-thermal Escape Of The Martian CO2 Atmosphere Over Time: Constrained By Ar Isotopes

SpaceNut · 2021-05-21 20:33:51

Mars needs to amp up its field to aid in maintaining its atmosphere if we are going to be able to not need space suits and domes on the surface.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-24 13:25:40

Video Animation - What If We Terraformed Mars?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxs5BX9_iaU

Calliban · 2024-09-26 06:26:36

Turns out that the Martian crust may be full of methane.
https://www.space.com/mars-missing-atmo … ay-methane

This is good news for industry on Mars. Abundant methane makes it easier to make steel, plastics and any other organic compound we need. Most importantly of all, methane can be used to make acetic acid which can be used to grow food without photosynthesis.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-09-26 06:29:28)

Void · 2025-01-25 17:55:10

I have so far resisted the temptation to start a new topic.

If I did, it might be named "Mars, Underground/Surface/Orbital". I am not trying to say that I have a brilliant plan, rather that I have continuing questions about objectives and methods.

I understand the logic of Mars Direct as promoted by Dr. Zubrin and others. You will note that I included surface in my world-be topic, so I do not exclude the Mars Direct method, but I am thinking that very likely we want "All of the above".

I have seen recent ideas that Nuclear could get humans to Mars in a short time period. But Dr. Zubrin has indicated that if you could do that, then you could send more stuff to Mars instead. As far as I am concerned if you send freight, then you can use it to shield humans from radiation along the way. So, there are many ways to look at it.

We think that SpaceX may in fair time, or eventually send robotic missions to Mars as precursors of discovery potential.
I have seen the idea of the X-37 doing atmospheric skipping. Many new things are coming into view. https://www.livescience.com/technology/ … t-to-earth Quote:

A secret, experimental space plane will be performing a new kind of specialized brake maneuver as it returns to Earth’s atmosphere, the U.S. Space Force announced.

I am tempted to say, "Well, then why not do that with Starship?". Perhaps it is possible, but also may complicate things.

But something that has sometimes annoyed me is that a Starship sent to Mars, could have drop tanks that it leaves in a sun orbit along the way. Doing that it could have various items attached to its outside on the leeward side. Those various items could use alternative methods to achieve a Mars orbit, perhaps. The reason I like this is you have 6-9 raptor engines on a Starship, and if you have extra propellants in drop tanks, then you can make better use of them. Granted the current fetish is reusability, but on occasion, SpaceX will expend hardware for a worthy purpose.

After Starship may have done the burn to exit Earth/Moon, the drop tanks could be dropped. And as is worthwhile the various probes could be disconnected and left to their own resources to do whatever mission they may have to do.

Devices that have Electric Propulsion might make sense. Possibly they could have other means such as heat shields to try to get into a modified orbit of Mars, and maybe also some small chemical thrusters. Anyway by this then the moons of Mars could be investigated deeply, perhaps, and also there could be some orbiters that could be used for the landing mission support.

As the Starships will apparently have side by side propellant transfers, I think that the fixtures for a drop tank a bit like the Space Shuttles Tank could be supported. And if this might work, it could be a way to get heavy hardware to Mars orbit in subsequent missions. Such hardware might be sent to the operations for the moons, or maybe a Starship could fly up and fetch them down.

I am enthusiastic for surface and subsurface operations on Mars, but as I see it, this is a way to get a "Twofer".
I prefer to be a pessimist as to what resources the two moons may contain. I hope for various common minerals, and also perhaps Carbon. I do not count on Hydrogen or Water.

But from my point of view, if you could fetch some Hydrogen up to activities to process such materials from Phobos and maybe Deimos, then with solar heat you could likely pull a lot of Oxygen out of the moons materials while reducing the "Ores". Even if the moons might have ice in them, this would likely be more workable than to dig down for it. at least at first. Although you would have Hydrogen losses along the way, you might reuse the same Hydrogen over and over for this purpose. Just splitting the water, you produced, and storing the Oxygen for propulsion and breathing.

Water and Carbon if available might make good radiation protection in orbit as well. And you could make refined metals and glass, and slag bricks as well. Having the means to obtain that Oxygen would facilitate returns to Earth, and also missions to the Asteroids and between Mars and the two moons.

I think that the idea of a chemical boost followed by an electric propulsion and then perhaps some aerobraking, would be a good companion process to a sort-or Mars Direct process.

In the previous post, Calliban gives some hope that Methane may already be available on Mars. That could be an alternative also. Starship could shuttle Methane up to the moons effort and the ships could be refilled for landing with Oxygen from the Moons. Again, solar energy, but I suppose if you insist, nuclear energy could be used to heat regolith in the presence of Phobos or Demos regolith.

I will want to add the materials of this post from another topic to this topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 26#p229326

I have been an advocate for an orbital presence around Venus, recently. An aspect of that was I felt that solar energy around Venus would be very favorable. But if efficiency were 100% for mirrors, then you could amplify sunlight at Mars by 4 times around Mars, and get the same energy as you might in orbit of Venus. OK, as efficiency will not be 100% then lets use 5 to 1 as the ratio. So, sunlight for the orbit of Mars might be less than for Earth, but you could focus it to a high heat, and heat an oven containing regolith and Methane, and so reduce the "Ore", and produce H20 and CO2, perhaps. You could recycle the Hydrogen, and use the Oxygen for propulsion and breathing, and perhaps the Carbon could be made into space structure along with the Metals and Glass.

This should keep some people from getting allergic, as many people here do not like solar panels, and for this activity, we do not have to worry about the inertia of the solar power mirrors and apparatus. An the system might be able to generate electrical power as well, at times.

The same would be much harder to do on the surface of Mars.

And with Vast Space working towards space stations, eventually with artificial gravity, life support for humans in orbit of Mars may also be practical. https://www.vastspace.com/

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-01-25 18:54:42)

Void · 2025-01-26 10:22:58

Some people hate optimism, but I will post this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWoZLn6BMWo

I will have more to say. But for Earth I am wondering if CO2 in the atmosphere could become regarded as a building material, provided a future with massive amounts of energy.

Pause................

Here is some useful information in my opinion: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index … ic=58384.0
Quote:

Offline Michel Van
Full Member
***
Posts: 340
Aachen, Germany
Liked: 180
Likes Given: 187
SpaceX Argon ion engine a game changer ?
« on: 02/28/2023 10:39 am »
Starlinks V2 minis are equipped with new Argon Hall thrusters for on orbit maneuvering
Argon Hall thruster tech specs:
- 170 mN thrust
- 2500 s specific impulse
- 50% total efficiency
- 4.2 kW power
- 2.1 kg mass
- Center mounted cathode
According some sources in Internet is this 2.5 times more powerful of best NASA ion engine.
But real game changer is use of cheaper Argon as propellant, (instead Xenon).
0.9% of Earth atmosphere and 1.6% of Mars atmosphere is argon.
Now this could be something for Starship equip with Argon Hall thrusters.
It could reduce transit time or able heavy cargo transport to Mars during unfavorable mission opportunities.
But real game changer is long flights to Jupiter or Saturn
With those Argon Hall thrusters you could reduce transit time from 5 years down to months.

So, now, I am considering this: I am about to speculate on some version of Dr. Johnsons existing concept of spinning one Starship for artificial gravity. But in this case I am going to imagine that after entering LEO, it will be converted to a nuclear electric drive. The tanks might be filled with Argon.

The nuclear engine might be attached to the tail of the ship. So, the center of spin would be altered.

The ship could bring people to Mars, but I am really more considering that it would bring hardware to orbits of Mars, and then the ship might be used as a shelter for humans.

The second life of this device might be to try to hide in the shadow of one of the Martian moons, for radiation protection. As it would have nuclear power this device would not need sunlight. It would need some means of hovering. though behind a moon. I am supposing that ion thrusters may be able to do that due to the feeble gravitation of the two moons. If not then some auxiliary method will have to be afforded.

It is my opinion that we should not want to go to Mars and then become the parents of a "Land-Loving" culture on Mars. Mars obviously is much more suited as a platform to extend the human reach than is Earth, in my opinion.

But the orbits of Mars will not offer gravity and will be exposed to very dangerous radiation.

Anyway, perhaps it will be discovered to be impractical. So, let me know if the idea is unworkable. The Starship would spin. As it would have a nuclear reactor on it's tail, it would have a different center of spin than a normal Starship, the center of spin would be closer to the tail. As there are two propellant tanks, perhaps one could be filled with Argon and one with water, to give protection from the nuclear reactors radiation. The Argon might be augmented with Argon from Mars, and the water likely would be from Mars also or perhaps, Hydrogen from Mars, and Oxygen from a moon, to make water. Thermal steam thrusters might be suitable to maintain the hover desired. It would be tricky doing the hover while the ship is spinning, but maybe it can be done.

Of the two shadows, Demos is preferred. Lower gravity, and a slower rotation around Mars. Also Phobos has secondary radiation that is emitted from the surface of Mars, when hard radiation hits it. For Deimos, a orbit around Mars of 30 hours, indicates that the ship only has to also hover around Deimos once per that orbit. Also Deimos has a better view of the greater amount of the surface of Mars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos_(moon) OK about 30 hours.

The major protection from this would be from Solar radiation, but some GCR would be blocked. The reactor and Argon and water tanks would also block some GCR.

But it would be hoped that over time more protection could be built into the ship, from materials sent from Earth, and materials obtained from Mars and the moons of Mars.

So, anyway this would be the Mars starting point. A seed that could grow, which might afford humans a relatively safe start.

I have not abandoned the idea of surface activities on Mars. But a large part of this could be robots. The ship shielded by Deimos could have humans on it to teleoperate robots on Mar/Phobos/Deimos as might be useful.

As an example of additional radiation protection for the Deimos ship, perhaps Paraffin Wax could be manufactured on Mars and brought up to the ship.

Unlike the surface of Mars for humans, a shadow ship for Deimos might be able to simulate 1 g. Due to being ballasted at it's tail, and also SpaceX intends to make larger ships.

Pause...................

I am in agreement with Isaac Arthur that the poles of the two moons are of interest.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

Settling the Martian Mars: Phobos & Deimos
YouTube
Isaac Arthur
62.6K views
10 months ago

Pause.................

So, things could go in several directions. You could add more Starships to the shadow ship behind Deimos, add more shielding materials as well, from various sources. And you could begin to build "Cradels" in the 4 poles of the moons.

As I see it a pit and wall structure might work. The wall might be a ring joined by metal bands/wires, into a ring that rests at a perimeter of a pit at a pole on a moon. Metals and Oxygen might be produced, but also slag bricks with metal wire or bands wrapped around them where the metal to metal can do a weld to hold them together.

Anyway, I need a nap, I think.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-01-26 13:09:15)

Void · 2025-01-27 11:53:58

The reason why I suggest the possibility of orbiting a Starship(s) around Deimos, is that it has already been done for Bennu: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … d-bennu-go Quote:

How low does OSIRIS REx's record-setting orbiting around Bennu go?
Asked 6 years ago
Modified 6 years ago
Viewed 125 times

This is a really nice answer, Quote:

4
Bennu's hill sphere is 29.5 km roughly. The orbit is roughly circular, about 1.75 km above the center, or about 1.5 km above the surface of the asteroid. It is well inside of the Hill Sphere. This doesn't even compare to Dawn, which orbited about 35 km above the surface at closest, and that was with a very eccentric orbit. Hayabusa 2 isn't really orbiting Ryugu, but is rather remaining stationary above it about 6 km above the surface.
The specific orbit, as outlined in this article, goes from 1.4 km to 2 km from the surface. Thus it will be only a bit over 1 km at the closest approach.
Share
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edited Jan 2, 2019 at 14:35

However, I expect Mars to tug at the orbit over time so maintenance thrust will be needed. The "Shadows Ship" would be a "moon-moon".

I am not doing a "Zero-Sum" contest here. I think that development of Mars and the moons are equally important. However, we do not know the long-term heath consequences of humans in a ~.38 g situation on the surface of Mars.
But we are somewhat convinced that an artificial gravity of 1 g may sustain human health for a time at least. We could probably achieve that with a ballasted Starship, and a larger Starship.

And we also have the passivity that we need less propulsive expenditure if we do not land humans or many humans on the surface of Mars at the start. We have the possibility of extracting Oxygen and radiation shielding materials, and metals from either Deimos or Phobos or both.

If we conclude that ~.38 g is not enough, then we have to take the long way after all. But as I have said before this could be tested in LEO, with a Starship. If we test a simulation of ~.38 g in LEO and it seems OK, then maybe we tilt towards humans more on the Mars surface. If the results of the testing are disappointing, then we need to test for a full ~1 g simulation next, to get an idea if we could start in the shadows of Deimos and expand from there.

If ballast is added to the tail end of a Starship, then the center of rotation can be moved towards the back and you might be able to reach up to ~1 g in the nose of the ship. But Dr. Johnson has suggested that without ballasting, a Starship could reach up to ~.5 g and so Mars simulated gravity testing could be done.

So, then we might have some data to plan our forward actions with more efficiently.

Pause................

Just now, I am contemplating the question, if it is possible to get some radiation protection by staying in the shadow of Deimos. But auxiliary means of protection could be developed as well, anticipating using local resources from Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

This is my first try at an "Ice Balloon Radiation Collar" for a ship, so have patience:

A toroidal balloon could be filled with an ice chunk. Probably vapor phase to solid is preferred. The structure then has some strength, and may be anchored to the ship with cables and standoffs perhaps. I am anticipating the Hydrogen to come from Mars and the Oxygen for the water to come from one of the two moons. So, this could be helpful for GCR also. You could prefer the collar to be closer to the center of rotation, so perhaps your bedrooms and storm shelter are there as well.

To get this ship to Mars/Phobos/Deimos, I anticipate the use of a Chemical Burn Starship to give it a boost, and for the Converted Starship to use electric Argon as its finishing method of propulsion. The Chemical Burn Starship as Booster may be reusable. If you have a Nuclear Thermal Booster, then even better.

The Shadow Ship/Station might be upgraded over time, so that eventually it could come out into full sunlight and stop orbiting Deimos.

Again, I am sort of multiple ways on the idea of settling Mars. I think we do not want Mole people on Mars only, and that Sky People are desired also. Ideally the Martians will be free to be both at various time intervals.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-01-27 12:46:46)

Calliban · Yesterday 04:34:10

One interesting concept that I have toyed with is using the Martian moons as reaction mass. Specifically, consider the case of a large ship like Robert Dyke is working on, entering a high Martian orbit just inside its Hill Sphere. We then use taxi type vehicles to ferry people and materials between the ship in high Mars orbit and Low Mars Orbit, where they would rendezvous with SSTO type shuttles that go from and to the surface. The taxis would be solar powered and would use Phobos and Deimos regolith as reaction mass. The exhaust velocity of their mass driver engines could be such that exhausted material would escape Mars altogether or fall into its atmosphere. So there would be no buildup if material in tight orbits.

Last edited by Calliban (Yesterday 04:36:11)

Void · Yesterday 09:45:34

Those are concepts worth considering. I agree that after the interplanetary rocket jockey era, methods similar to what you describe may make sense.

You may be able to give assistance. If we had a microwave oven in orbit tuned for it, could we heat dust in it and expose it to reducing agents, such as Hydrogen and Carbon, and hope to reduce the material until it can be electrically conductive? A secondary process would then produce Oxygen from the gas outputs. And it might be desired to subject the dust to other processes, to perhaps extract iron and maybe other substances.

But the leftovers if reduced, may be suitable to use in a Neumann Drive, I hope. The Neumann Drive is new and I don't know how well it can be sized up, but it is supposed to compare well with gas type electric rockets.

We also have the possibility of using a combustible mix of LOX and Aluminum powder. I would be a bit nervous about the stability of that however.

But I do wonder if we could make a paste of LOX and Oxidized dust from Phobos and Deimos to make projectiles to shoot out of a Mass Driver. We might be able to mix in a little bit of Magnetite, if we would keep it from combusting. Magnetite is already somewhat Oxidized, so maybe the risk is low. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite My expectations are that the LOX will evaporate, and perhaps the dust would dissipate when it does. And so the evaporation and dust would be swept away by the solar winds, if the bullets did not hit the Mars atmosphere, or exit the Mars hill sphere. Both the LOX and the Magnetite should react from the magnetic fields of a mass driver.

So, I agree, those moons could be supplying both construction materials and propellants of various types.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 09:58:10)

Void · Yesterday 20:40:35

I almost included this in my earlier post today: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … d648&ei=11
Quote:

Relativistic electron beams: A new frontier in interstellar travel
Story by Joseph Shavit • 1d • 6 min read

The statite’s location, near the Parker Solar Probe’s closest approach to the Sun, ensures maximum energy harvesting. Equipped with a massive sunshield, the platform would protect sensitive components from extreme heat while generating the gigawatts of power needed for beam propulsion.
By focusing this energy into a relativistic electron beam, the statite could propel a spacecraft over distances of 100 to 1,000 AU. This represents a significant leap over existing propulsion technologies, which lose effectiveness beyond a few AU.
To maintain beam coherence over such distances, advanced focusing systems would be essential. While current optical and particle-beam technologies provide a foundation, they must be adapted for the unique challenges of interstellar propulsion. Innovations in beam steering, stabilization, and energy efficiency would further enhance system performance.

I might just be ignorant, but I would want to wonder if this could be tapped to do lesser tasks, such as propelling spacecraft in the hill sphere of Mars, by projecting beams from Phobos and Deimos. To be sure the power supply is needed and sunlight is not too wonderful but might be workable at Mars.

And I wonder if the electron cloud that is behind each of these moons could make a contribution?

https://www.space.com/38530-solar-wind- … hobos.html
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7717305847

So, anyway, the (+) ions have a harder time filling the VOID behind the object, Phobos or Deimos, but the (-) electrons having less inertia may fille it more easily.

My hope would be that a sufficient power supply could be associated with these moons, and the electrons could be harvested to add to an electron beam to push spacecraft with relativistic electrons. Certainly, this would not be used to launch interstellar craft, but perhaps it could be used in the hill sphere of Mars.

So, the electrons do have mass, I believe, so it is a matter projector. And the inertial of the mass of the moons could accept the inertia from the recoil, I hope.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 20:57:06)

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#1 2020-08-10 21:40:46

Will Mars be terrafromed

#2 2020-08-10 23:27:46

Re: Will Mars be terrafromed

#3 2020-08-11 18:12:48

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#4 2020-08-23 16:15:14

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#5 2020-08-23 17:07:53

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#6 2020-12-06 22:06:58

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#7 2021-05-21 10:40:10

Re: Will Mars be terrafromed

#8 2021-05-21 20:33:51

Re: Will Mars be terrafromed

#9 2024-03-24 13:25:40

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#10 2024-09-26 06:26:36

Re: Will Mars be terrafromed

#11 2025-01-25 17:55:10

Re: Will Mars be terrafromed

#12 2025-01-26 10:22:58

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#13 2025-01-27 11:53:58

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#14 Yesterday 04:34:10

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#15 Yesterday 09:45:34

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