Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

Void · 2025-01-10 17:45:17

I hate to start a new topic, but could we transmute Carbon in the radiation belts of a planet like Jupiter, and manufacture on a mass basis a power source like this? We would be transmuting Carbon using the radiation belts.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … a9e3&ei=17
Quote:

Scientists create first-of-its-kind 'diamond battery' with lifespan of thousands of years — here's how the tech will be used
Story by Rick Kazmer • 2d • 3 min read

And in doing so can we modify the radiation belts to make them less of a hazaard?

The Carbon might have to come from Callisto and Ganymede perhaps, or the Asteroid Belt.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-01-11 12:16:05)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-10 21:09:54

This post is reserved for an index posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time.

We are in the Science Category, so posts with details about how the discovery works would be helpful.

(th)

Void · 2025-01-11 12:05:56

I believe that the current output of the device is very small but its lifetime is very long. I would say, that if you had the materials for it, then perhaps they could be ganged together to produce significant energy.

If we were to create a ring of Carbon Dust, I would fear that the materials would get sucked into Jupiter.

If we made a ring of Carbon of larger components, it might be that it would absorb the radiation of the Jupiter.

As I understand it, currently Carbon 14 for nuclear diamonds is taken from Shielding from nuclear reactors.

A different way to access the radiation belts of Jupiter would be habitats encased in very thick Carbon Shells. So, when at the point of orbit away from the Perihelion, the aphelion. Some of these might allow access to moons like Europa and Io as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apsis

While I think we have done a lot with chemistry, it seems to look like we will begin to work with Transmutation.

I don't know if the radiation belts of planets will be suitable for that, but it does not hurt to ask, except for the danger of seeming to be a fool. I will make that easy. Indeed, I am to some extent a fool.

Here is a video about Nuclear Diamond Batteries: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/r … 636f&ei=12

I have had an interest also in Aluminum-26, which I think can be produced by transmuting Silicon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-26

I am not sure exactly what type of radiation is in the radiation belts of Jupiter.

Our Van Allen belts are primarily of Protons and Electrons. I do not know if they have the ability to do transmutation.

Anyway, if the belts of Jupiter can be useful that way, then if we can put materials into them to transmute, then we might be able to throttle or alter the character of those radiation belts.

If this is possible then perhaps Aliens might do it. Maybe a signal would be generated from that.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-01-11 12:24:53)

Void · 2025-01-11 16:57:52

OK, then I will try to give support to the idea.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

I seems that there are some very high energy particles in some of the radiation belts of Jupiter, but I am unable to determine if they are energetic enough to preform transmutation at a sufficient rate. For the moment I will have to plead ignorant.

I do not know if the concept is possible in reality.

So until I know more I fill accept failure.

But I do believe that the belts could do a lesser ionization of molecules that could lead to the creation of chemical energy.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-01-11 18:01:45)

Void · 2025-01-11 18:38:45

There is some talk about a electron with sufficient energy entering into a atom and combining with a proton and so altering the atomic number of the atom and making it into another type of element, maybe an isotope?

Carbon Shielding gets transmuted from a nuclear reactor. But I may have been wrong supposing that the particles in a magnetic field could do similar. I apologize. I don't know for sure if I am wrong, but at this point as I cannot obtain sufficient information, I will have to presume that I have stepped into it. A mistake perhaps.

Such information is kept rather secret from idiots, for good reason, so I do not anticipate that if it is possible that I will obtain any confirmation.

So, I end it. But not the idea of ionizing chemicals to run a artificial biosphere. The secondary radiation could do that, I think.

Ending Pending

Void · 2025-01-13 07:35:59

So, I have found evidence for transmutation using protons, by this query phrase "Proton radiation and transmutation?"
But on my phones search engine, Bing as usual may not get me where I want to go.

So, I copied phrasing from my phone to query that: ""Proton radiation" refers to a stream of high-energy protons use as radiation, while "transmutation describes the process of changing one element into another by altering the number of protons in its nucleus"

Again disappointed, it almost seems like the system under Bing wants to censor some of this.

It only wants to talk about proton beams for medical therapy.

Well, here is a article mentioning relativistic protons in some parts of the Van Allen Belts: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 23JA031484
Quote:

Journal of Geophysical Research: Space Physics
Journal of Geophysical Research: Space Physics
Research Article
Characteristics of High-Energy Protons in the Equatorial Plane of Inner Radiation Belt Observed by Van Allen Probes
Zhaohai He, Jiyao Xu, Lei Dai, Chi Wang, Tao Chen, Suping Duan, Ilan Roth
First published: 18 August 2023 https://doi.org/10.1029/2023JA031484Citations: 2

Well, those sound powerful.

Next Query: "Use of proton radiation to treat radioactive nuclear waste?"
OK, getting warmer: https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/911 … roton-beam
Quote:

Europe must find sustainable ways of managing high-level, long-lived radioactive waste. Transmuting or converting this material into less toxic and shorter-lived elements would help to reduce the problem. Such treatment would decrease the amount and heat load of these toxic waste materials. Being radioactive, they must be prevented from going into deep geological repositories and their lifespan has to be limited to manageable timescales.
Transmutation requires a high-power proton accelerator. A new flexible fast spectrum research reactor, planned to be operational by 2023 in Mol (Belgium), is the multi-purpose hybrid research reactor for high-tech applications (MYRRHA). To demonstrate the feasibility of the reactor concept, the 'MYRRHA accelerator experiment, research and development programme' (MAX) project was established with EU funding.

Production of Carbon 14 with cosmic rays, and Nitrogen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14

Then what is a cosmic ray? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray
Quote:

Cosmic rays or astroparticles are high-energy particles or clusters of particles (primarily represented by protons or atomic nuclei) that move through space at nearly the speed of light. They originate from the Sun, from outside of the Solar System in our own galaxy, and from distant galaxies. Upon impact … See more

So, if you have powerful protons and atomic nuclei, a collision with other matter may produce transmutation of some kind.

Query: "Where does Carbon 14 in nuclear diamond batteries come from?"
Where does Carbon 14 in nuclear diamond batteries come from?
Quote:

A sustainable solution to nuclear waste
The carbon-14 in these batteries comes from graphite blocks, a byproduct of nuclear fission reactors.
This novel method not only offers a practical application for radioactive waste but also minimizes the cost and difficulty of safe storage.
The UK alone has almost 95,000 tons of graphite blocks.
The team from UKAEA and the University of Bristol uses a plasma deposition rig, a specialized device, to grow the diamond structure.

OK, but this transmutation to Carbon 14 probably involves Neutrons, so I cannot be totally assured that Protons may do similar.

So, maybe eventually, Nuclear Diamond Batteries can be sized up or ganged to provide a significant wattage, but for now they only supply a very tiny amount of power for very extended periods.

I stumbled onto an AI assistant, it provided this: "Yes, proton beams can indeed be used to induce nuclear transmutation! This process involves bombarding a target material with high-energy protons, causing nuclear reactions that transform one element or isotope into another1.

One application of this technique is in the transmutation of long-lived radioactive waste, such as cesium-137 and strontium-90, into shorter-lived or stable isotopes. This can help reduce the long-term radiotoxicity and volume of nuclear waste, making its management safer and more efficient2.

Would you like to know more about how this process works or its applications?"

Here I am presuming that a Carbon Shell can be transmuted with high energy Protons in a planetary radiation belt.
The blue area is then protected from that which can transmute, but the blue layer may experience radiolysis from secondary radiation which may penetrate into it.

It is likely to be desired that the Ocean floor simulation will be porous enough that the water based fluids can be circulated through it.

If it is only water then I would expect the production of Oxygen and Hydrogen. But CO2 and N2 could be included, so that other chemicals would be produced.

The chemistry generated, could then be presented to organism that could consume it.

So, it is possible that this is a type of biosphere that could run off of a radiation belt.

If there is a planet 9 and it is big and has radiation belts, then this might be possible to use at that location also.

I think I have dug up enough materials to justify speculation in these directions.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-01-13 08:35:11)

Calliban · 2025-01-14 19:52:29

One problem with using protons for nuclear transmutation is efficiency. Protons are charged and much of their energy will be lost interacting with electron shells. This is why accelerator driven nuclear reactors have never been practical. Too much energy is lost due to electron shell interactions. Another problem is flux. Whilst flux available in Van Allen belts is enough to be problematic to human health, it is extremely low compared to the neutron flux in a nuclear reactor. Even over the entire age of the solar system, composition of target materials won't change much.

The diamond battery idea works for very low power applications. The long halflife of C14 means that this will never be a significant energy source in bulk terms. But if you need millwatts to operate some longterm electronic device, C14 diamonds would fit this sort of niche application. The C14 source is cheap as it is an otherwise useless waste material. Many fission products like Sr90 could be similarly useful. But the cost of reprocessing is a challenge to the commercial use of these materials. Contact doses from moderator blocks make this material challenging to use as well. But at least in this case, chemical processing is not needed. Nuclear graphite blocks are a chemically pure mixture of carbon isotopes.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-01-14 19:56:14)

Void · 2025-01-15 13:16:18

I appreciate that you have tried to define the boundaries of possibility in these things.

I would prefer not to meddle with the Earth's Van Allen belts for now anyway, until more is understood.

But for the two gas giants and the two ice giants the magnetic fields are perhaps "More"?

For Jupiter and Saturn, I see that some people think that their magnetic fields may trap antimatter that perhaps could be harvested. Here is a little bit on that: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/que … etic-field

Your assertion of the lack of significant transmutation is both good and bad news for my speculations.
Even so, I recall that a Aluminum shielded shell to protect astronauts passing though the Van Allen Belts per cycler type method, would eventually become radioactive. But perhaps I recall wrongly.

Jupiter is another animal though: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8754300/
Quote:

The underlying source mechanism, involving either Jovian ring spallation by magnetospheric sulfur or stochastic oxygen heating by low-frequency plasma waves, puts Jupiter’s ion radiation belt in the same league with that of astrophysical particle accelerators.

Energy input to this situation is not required as it is a natural thing in existence already.

I am interested in learning. I am wanting to know where transmutation will happen in a useful or dangerous way. I am also interested in a radiation induced chemosynthesis, biological system.

So, my thoughts were to put enough shielding so that transmutation does not happen in the biological chemicals, and yet enough radiation gets in to generate useful chemicals. If transmutation of the outer layer is not economically viable, then all I care about is to prohibit it in the biological chemicals I would not want Tritium generated for instance.

So, I am thinking of mimicking the biology which apparently exists in ocean sediments: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7910440/
Quote:

Abstract
Water radiolysis continuously produces H2 and oxidized chemicals in wet sediment and rock. Radiolytic H2 has been identified as the primary electron donor (food) for microorganisms in continental aquifers kilometers below Earth’s surface. Radiolytic products may also be significant for sustaining life in subseafloor sediment and subsurface environments of other planets. However, the extent to which most subsurface ecosystems rely on radiolytic products has been poorly constrained, due to incomplete understanding of radiolytic chemical yields in natural environments. Here we show that all common marine sediment types catalyse radiolytic H2 production, amplifying yields by up to 27X relative to pure water. In electron equivalents, the global rate of radiolytic H2 production in marine sediment appears to be 1-2% of the global organic flux to the seafloor. However, most organic matter is consumed at or near the seafloor, whereas radiolytic H2 is produced at all sediment depths. Comparison of radiolytic H2 consumption rates to organic oxidation rates suggests that water radiolysis is the principal source of biologically accessible energy for microbial communities in marine sediment older than a few million years. Where water permeates similarly catalytic material on other worlds, life may also be sustained by water radiolysis.

So, I find this even more attractive than Transmutation, but if it had been possible to exploit Transmutation I would have been interested in that as well.

In post #6, I hoped to be able to promote both in a water ball like this:
But you tell me that Transmutation will not be practical. Thanks, it is good to know. But I am still interested in biology driven by radioactivity.

-----------

Yes, Nuclear Diamond Batteries are said to be long lasting low power devices. But I read that in China an attempt at a 1-watt device is being made. That is still small, but who can be sure about the future of this?

Thermocouples are also very low yield devices, but a thermopile does better?

Not want to be annoying, just interested.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-01-15 13:46:41)

Terraformer · 2025-01-15 15:01:22

RTGs using more efficient energy conversion and suitably containable isotopes might achieve power densities comparable to nuclear reactors for certain applications. Strontium titanate puts out about 250W/kg; it doesn't seem unlikely to me that a 1 tonne complete system could achieve 100kWe.

If we get good at nuclear tramsmutation, perhaps we can achieve far higher power densities than that. Even if it's very poorly performing as an energy storage system, the energy to produce it would come cheaply from large solar farms, and provide something far more suitable for use in spaceships.

Keen on antimatter mining too of course. Maybe we'll finally get fusion power... Once we reach Jupiter and can harvest plentiful antimatter to use as the trigger.

Calliban · 2025-01-16 08:41:05

Strontium-90 is the most useful fission product for RTGs. It has the advantage of otherwise being a waste product of the fuel cycle. Using it as a power source is a good way of turning a problem into an asset. It is abundant, has a high decay energy of 2.86MeV, almost all of which is in the form of beta. Cs-135 & 137 can be used as well. But 137Cs is a powerful gamma emitter that requires heavy shielding. Sr-90 has comparable power density to 238Pu and could replace it is space applications. It is considered less desirable because x-ray emissions complicate handling of Sr90 RTGs. But the issue is a manageable one.

I hadn't heard of antimatter mining from Jupiters' magnetosphere before. But that is certainly very interesting if antiprotons can be used to catalyse or trigger fusion.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2025-01-10 17:45:17

Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

#2 2025-01-10 21:09:54

Re: Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

#3 2025-01-11 12:05:56

Re: Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

#4 2025-01-11 16:57:52

Re: Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

#5 2025-01-11 18:38:45

Re: Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

#6 2025-01-13 07:35:59

Re: Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

#7 2025-01-14 19:52:29

Re: Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

#8 2025-01-15 13:16:18

Re: Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

#9 2025-01-15 15:01:22

Re: Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

#10 2025-01-16 08:41:05

Re: Nuclear Diamond Battery and radiation belts, Transmutation.

Board footer