Iron and Steel on Mars

kbd512 · 2024-09-18 15:08:12

Void,

They only have icons in their oceans if they're running Windows. If that's the case, then the universe is doomed anyway. Bill already got to them. Long live the command line!

Void · 2024-09-18 20:48:42

Yes, kdb512 that would eventually bring the "Blue Screen of Death" to the universe.

Thanks for catching that, I would probably not have reviewed to discover it otherwise.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-09-29 08:48:56

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … 9c23&ei=10
Quote:

Researchers achieve breakthrough in steel production that could transform the industry: 'For the implementation of a fossil-free process in a full-scale production'
Story by Rick Kazmer • 1d • 3 min read

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-29 08:50:43)

Calliban · 2024-11-13 14:54:03

Methane is discovered in Martian meteorites.
https://scitechdaily.com/scientists-dis … eteorites/

If we can find buried deposits of methane on Mars, it would be a useful resource for food production, plastics manufacture and metal ore reduction.

This is especially interesting regarding the potential presence of hydrocarbons on Mars.
https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/aapg/e … ossibility

The northern plains appear to contain a deep layer of permafrost. This could serve as a cap rock for methane that migrates upward from serpentinisation reactions occuring within a deep, water saturated layer. Hydrogen is also possible. But methane forms stable clathrates at high pressure, which could sequester the gas in permafrost for geological periods. The northern plains could turn out to be a rich natural gas region.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-11-13 15:57:22)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-08 20:37:50

The Internet feed included an item from Interesting Engineering that our members might appreciate!

The article is about a discovery made in China, that injecting iron as little particles into a melt improves the efficiency of the iron production process. We've seen some surprising claims of performance improvement recently, and this article may contain such an item.

In any case, I'm hoping Calliban will take a look at this to see if it might represent an improvement that could be applied on Mars.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … c08e&ei=21

Request: This report includes an error. Rather than get excited about the error, I'm hoping our members can dig into the report to find out what the actual improvement may be. I'm assuming the improvement in productivity is more like 3.6 percent. The technology involved has to do with hour material is prepared to be fed into the blast furnace.

china-develops-new-iron-making-method-that-boosts-productivity-by-3-600-times
77/2000
News about China-Develops-New-Iron-Making-Method-That-Boost…
bing.com/news
China develops new iron making method that boosts productivity by 3,600 times
MSN
Hosted on MSN
· 15h
China develops new iron making method that boosts productivity by 3,600 times
A new iron making technology developed in China is set to significantly impact the …
China’s ‘explosive’ ironmaking breakthrough achieves 3,600-fold productivity boost
MSN
Hosted on MSN
· 18h
China’s ‘explosive’ ironmaking breakthrough achieves 3,600-fold productivity boost
A new method for making iron is not only faster and cheaper, but also better for the …
Flash ironmaking
China has developed a new iron-making technology that increases productivity by 3,600 times12. The method, known as flash ironmaking, completes the ironmaking process in just three to six seconds, compared to the five to six hours required by traditional blast furnaces3. It involves injecting finely ground iron ore powder into an extremely hot furnace, triggering an "explosive chemical reaction"4.
Learn more:
1
China unveils new iron-making technology tha…
newsminimalist.com
China's new iron-making method increases prod…
newsbytesapp.com
China’s ‘explosive’ ironmaking breakthroug…
https://news.yahoo.com/news/china-develops-iron...
China develops new iron making method that boosts …
8 hours ago · The new iron making method, developed by Chinese researchers, is both faster and more cost-effective, while also benefiting the environment. ... China develops new iron making …

South China Morning Post
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/...
China’s ‘explosive’ ironmaking breakthrough achieves 3,600-fold ...
3 days ago · China’s ‘explosive’ ironmaking breakthrough achieves 3,600-fold productivity boost. A new method for making iron is not only faster and cheaper, but also better for the environment ...
Global web icon
NewsBytes
https://www.newsbytesapp.com/news/science/china...
China's new iron-making method increases productivity by 3,600 …
14 hours ago · China's new flash iron-making method, developed by Professor Zhang Wenhai's team, can complete the iron-making process 3,600 times faster than traditional methods.
Global web icon
newsminimalist.com
https://www.newsminimalist.com/articles/china...
China unveils new iron-making technology that boosts productivity …
14 hours ago · China has developed a new iron-making technology that increases productivity by 3,600 times. This method, which takes just three to six seconds to produce high-purity iron, …
Global web icon
Head Topics
https://headtopics.com/us/china-develops-new-iron...
China develops new iron making method that boosts productivity …
1 day ago · Researchers claim the method can complete the iron making process in just three to six seconds, compared to the five to six hours required by traditional blast furnaces.A new iron …
Global web icon
MSN
https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/china-s...
MSN

I see the claim of productivity increase of 3,600 and I suspect that number was published in another context and misunderstood by a reporter, and then repeated by all the downstream automated news services.

I sure would appreciate someone (hopefully Calliban) reviewing this new iron making method to see if it might actually increase productivity 3.6 percent, which seems more likely.

After re-reading the entire set of snippets, I found this:

Global web icon
Head Topics
https://headtopics.com/us/china-develops-new-iron...
China develops new iron making method that boosts productivity …
1 day ago · Researchers claim the method can complete the iron making process in just three to six seconds, compared to the five to six hours required by traditional blast furnaces.A new iron …

This quote seems to show where the 3,600 number might have come from. It should be possible to carefully evaluate the claim to see if it makes sense.

First of all, is an estimate of 5 to 6 hours for a blast furnace run reasonable? I have no idea, other than having visited a steel plant to see hot rolling in progress. Our tour did not include a visit to the blast furnace area.

(th)

kbd512 · 2024-12-09 00:05:47

This process might increase the rate of molten Iron production, but not without an associated increase in energy consumption. How this new process will be run concurrently with the steel making process is not defined. Liquid Iron must be infused with the correct percentage of Carbon to make steel.

If anyone wants to study the most pervasive steel making processes, this document provides a great start:
Steel In The Making - How the world's most useful metal is made, and some of the ways it serves us all - Bethlehem Steel Corporation

It's only 44 pages, cover-to-cover.

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-09 08:34:49

For kbd512 re link in Post #106

Thank you for this helpful link! The article is a reminder of how significant the steel industry was in the United States some decades ago.

On page 13 I found a hint that the steel making process may indeed take 5 or 6 hours. I was unable to copy text from the pdf, but I did find text indicating that steel is drawn off every 5 or 6 hours.

The Chinese may have found a way to dramatically save time.

I don't think we have any idea at all of how much energy is required to process iron as the Chinese are reported to be doing.

It is much too soon (in the absence of actual information) to make even a wild guess.

I'm hoping this subject is of interest to NewMars members who may have the time and the motivation to dig into this little hint from China.

My guess is that the amount of energy needed to make a ton of steel is the same. The difference may be in the time required for the melt phase. That time may show up in the preparation for the melt phase, when iron ore is ground into fine particles.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-09 09:05:33

Here is an updated set of snippets about the new way to prepare molten iron.

kbd512's comment about energy required for this process is on my mind. The snippets reveal that the furnace is "extremely hot", so energy is required, but we have no clue about how ** much ** energy is required. Huge amounts of energy are required to melt a ton of scrap metal. At the moment, this forum does not include accurate figures for how much energy is required to melt a ton of iron ore or anything else. We have NO idea how that energy requirements compares to the energy required for the "flash" melting process.

I would like to see this topic slowly but surely accumulate actual knowledge about the pros and cons of this process.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-09 09:07:09

Here is an updated set of snippets about the new way to prepare molten iron.

kbd512's comment about energy required for this process is on my mind. The snippets reveal that the furnace is "extremely hot", so energy is required, but we have no clue about how ** much ** energy is required. Huge amounts of energy are required to melt a ton of scrap metal. At the moment, this forum does not include accurate figures for how much energy is required to melt a ton of iron ore or anything else. We have NO idea how that energy requirements compares to the energy required for the "flash" melting process.

I would like to see this topic slowly but surely accumulate actual knowledge about the pros and cons of this process.

The flash iron making method, as detailed by Professor Zhang Wenhai and his team in a paper published in the peer-reviewed journal Nonferrous Metals last month, can complete the iron making process in just three to six seconds, compared to the five to six hours required by traditional blast furnaces.1 day ago
China develops new iron making method that boosts ... - Yahoo
Yahoo
https://www.yahoo.com › news › china-develops-iron-...
China's 'explosive' ironmaking breakthrough achieves ...
South China Morning Post
https://www.scmp.com › News › China › Science
1 day ago — The method involves injecting finely ground iron ore powder into an extremely hot furnace, triggering an “explosive chemical reaction”, ...
China's 'explosive' ironmaking breakthrough achieves ...
South China Morning Post
https://www.scmp.com › News › China › Science
1 day ago — Known as flash ironmaking, the breakthrough method “can complete the ironmaking process in just three to six seconds, compared to the five to ...
China's 'explosive' ironmaking breakthrough achieves ...
MSN
https://www.msn.com › en-xl › news › other › china-s-e...
1 day ago — Known as flash ironmaking, the breakthrough method "can complete the ironmaking process in just three to six seconds, compared to the five to ...
China's new iron making method boosts productivity by ...
Interesting Engineering
https://interestingengineering.com › News › Science
1 day ago — China develops new iron making method that boosts productivity by 3,600 times · Process takes just three to six seconds · Blast furnace reliance ...
Iron Ore Extends Gain as China's Manufacturing Activity ...
Yahoo Finance
https://finance.yahoo.com › news › iron-ore-extends-ga...
Dec 1, 2024 — It showed new orders increased at the quickest pace during November since February last year. Benchmark iron ore futures gained 0.7% to $104.70 ...
China's new iron-making method increases productivity by ...
NewsBytes
https://www.newsbytesapp.com › news › science › story
1 day ago — China's new flash iron-making method, developed by Professor Zhang Wenhai's team, can complete the iron-making process 3,600 times faster than ...

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-09 09:19:29

The impression I get from the snippets I've seen, is that the powder "flash" melting process could make a small quantity of high quality molten iron, such as might be done in a home workshop. This would be interesting to see in the television series in the US about iron working: "Forged in Fire".

At present, the contestants are provided blocks of material that they melt in a furnace to make swords or knives. If iron can be made from ore rapidly, then that could be added to the competition.

(th)

kbd512 · 2024-12-09 09:32:14

tahanson43206,

That may very well be true, but they're injecting finely powdered Iron ore into a gas and using the reaction to save time, not necessarily energy. In the conventional way of making steel, or at least pig Iron, an Oxygen lance, versus a powdered Iron ore lance, is inserted into a molten Iron bath, so the thermal mass of the molten Iron conserves / retains heat, but it takes more time to turn that entire mass of solid Iron ore into a liquid. In this method, the Chinese are taking an idea we experimented with quite some time ago, and heating the "air" in the furnace and injecting the Iron ore. Retaining the heat in the "air" of the furnace is nowhere near as efficient as liquid Iron. If you read through that entire document, you'd note that a "heat" (a batch of steel), is produced in about 50 minutes using the Basic Oxygen Furnace.

Put another way, it would be fallacious to believe that there is not a thermodynamic minimum energy associated with converting a given tonnage of solid Iron ore into liquid Iron. You might be able to speed up the process using any number of methods, but not without a corresponding energy input.

The largest Basic Oxygen Furnaces (BOFs) can convert around 300 tons of Iron ore into steel per hour, using 30% to 40% scrap.

The largest Electric Arc Furnaces (EAFs) can convert around 400 tons of steel scrap into liquid steel per hour.

This new method...

7,110,000,000kg of Iron per year (using 3 reactors or furnaces) / 8,760 hours per year = 811,644kg of liquid Iron per hour

811,644kg / 3 reactors = 270,548kg of Iron per reactor per hour

270.5t is about equal to 300t, which is as much Iron or steel as the largest BOFs produces per hour.

As near as I can tell, the primary advantage of this new method is that the quality of the Iron ore can be pretty low.

EAFs run for 30 to 40 minutes to produce 1 "heat" (batch) of steel.

However, "charging" a furnace with materials can take one to several hours. EAFs in particular are time consuming to charge, because the scrap must be lifted and dumped into the furnace. This is likely where the claimed 3,600X time savings comes into play. The Chinese have come up with a continuous process for making Iron, and possibly steel. The way it's described, it sounds like the concept of "making a heat of steel" does not apply here. The process runs continuously for as long as you can keep the furnace fed with pulverized Iron ore and coking coal. That said, there must be a pre-process used to finely grind the Iron ore, in order to inject it through the ore lance. That process takes lots of energy, guaranteed. Recall what Professor Michaux stated about how finer grinding requires exponentially more energy. The finer the average size that you grind an ore to, the more energy is required, and it's not linear.

A document created for the US DoE, dated back to 2000, describes US steel industry practices wherein 500 tons per hour were produced:
ENERGY USE IN THE U.S. STEEL INDUSTRY: AN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE AND FUTURE OPPORTUNITIES - Dr. John Stubbles - Steel Industry Consultant

From the document:

In the 1990s, slag splashing dramatically extended lining lives and vessel availability for the BOF. The modern BOF, with bottom tuyeres and some post-combustion, can easily produce steel at 500 tons/hour. Its cycle time makes it compatible with slab casting machines. However, the BOF requires 70 to 75 percent blast furnace hot metal, which makes it ultimately dependent upon coke supplies.

Any time you see fantastic claims without significant detail or supporting evidence, you should immediately question the veracity of the claims and the motives of the people printing someone's marketing drivel. I see one valid claim listed in that MSN article, though scarcely touched upon, and that is the use of a continuous Iron or steel making process, moving away from the traditional concept of "heats" / "batches" of Iron or steel. I really do like that part, because I can easily see how and why it's useful, as well as how the described process enables it, and want to investigate that further. The claims about 3,600X greater time-efficiency are questionable at best, but appear to be specious.

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#101 2024-09-18 15:08:12

Re: Iron and Steel on Mars

#102 2024-09-18 20:48:42

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#104 2024-11-13 14:54:03

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#105 2024-12-08 20:37:50

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