Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

tahanson43206 · 2024-11-24 18:58:37

The waiting room is open at 58:18 UTC

The meeting is underway.

kbd512 joined.

We had a discussion underway of gyroscopes and fabrication of components for the large space vessel.

At about 20 minutes in the connection dropped.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-11-24 20:28:26

Meeting follow up....

kbd512 cleared the last little hurdle ... we now have FluxBB 1.15.12 ready for use.

Thank you to GW Johnson, Void and SpaceNut for helping by logging and confirming that the new systems looks and feels like the old one.

The difference is beneath the covers.... ** all ** the underlying software has been brought forward 10 years plus, from 2012 to 2024.

We hope and expect that the Internal Server errors we had been seeing will not reoccur.

Here is our plan of action:

We encourage ** all ** active members to log into the new system: http://newmars.con/new/

You will have one week to catch any bugs that might exist.

On Sunday next week, at precisely NOON SpaceNut time (New Hampshire) we will close logins on the old system and begin conversion.

The conversion process itself should take only a couple of hours but we are blocking off the entire rest of Sunday.

You will see the change when you attempt to log in and a message appears to the effect that logins are disabled.

I'll investigate to see if we can improve the message.

In any case, when the new system is up we will enable logins there.

In thinking a bit further, I can (and will) create a new topic you can check when we are working.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-01 18:58:40

The weekly meeting is in progress.... all are welcome.
We have something to celebrate.
Use the link at the top of this topic.
(th)

SpaceNut · 2024-12-01 19:11:39

I now have a roof with plywood and water shield.

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-01 19:18:24

For SpaceNut re #229

Thanks for this terrific news!

kbd512 and I have good news as well.... the software we've been working on for over a year is now installed and working.

Thanks for being one of our first members to try it out. RobertDyck was on earlier.

For all... the weekly Google meeting is over .... kbd512 put in a *** long *** day.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-08 07:30:08

Today is Sunday and Google Meeting day for NewMars...

The plan is to open the waiting room just before 7 PM Houston time, 8 PM New Hampshire time, and 1 AM UTC.

We have gone a week without major (or any) problems with the new FluxBB package. That is something to celebrate.

There are little adjustments that might be made. Some debug code is still running. It is harmless but no longer needed.

It's main benefit is to confirm we really are running the new version.

kbd512 has offered to create a directory to hold files for images or text we are currently pulling from Dropbox or Imgur or other Cloud resources. This directory will be used with care. The mechanism for setting up a file so it can be served from the Mars Society servers is in need of planning. The Admins and Moderators should be able to handle the process, so PHP code will be needed.

The immediate feature I'd like to resume work on is the "like" feature. Signs of earlier work are visible at the bottom of each post, where the message about location of the button and likes report is visible.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-08 18:59:31

The waiting room is open. GW Johnson is here.

KT is under the table, and the two remaining chickens are out in the shed he built for them.

Update after meeting:

This was another interesting and productive meetings!

We spent some time on SpinLaunch, and branched into Space Tug.

We wrapped up with a brief business session, the outcome of which is that GW suggested the pdf file of his recent article about the ISS leaking tunnel.

That pdf is a copy of what was submitted to the Waco newspaper and published there in the print and digital editions.

kbd512 will create a directory for direct-serve files and we'll use the ISS Leak article as our first experiment.

kbd512 thinks (and is likely to be right) that it may be possible to serve the file as a link from the Mars Society server instead of Dropbox.

With any luck ( and if he has the time ) kbd512 will have this working sometime next week.

GW Johnson showed us an online demonstration of his skill in working with Microsoft Paint. In this case, he took a look at the idea of shaping the SpinLaunch projectile as a saucer instead of as a projectile.

The discussion branched a bit as we went along. There is a running debate about what kind of rocket should be used for acceleration of the projectile after it leaves the SpinLaunch rotating arm. One faction (led by kbd512) is in favor of liquid fuel, and there are a number of positive indicators for this approach. The other faction (led by tahanson43206) is in favor of solid fuel rockets due to their simplicity. GW Johnson spent some time on this a few months ago, and ended up with a three stage solid rocket system that would put 200 kg into orbit, which was the stated objective of the SpinLaunch project.

The reason for the three stages is the low ISP of solid fuel.

On the other hand, kbd512 showed that if the payload being carried to orbit is liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, then those materials could be used to accomplish two valuable things at the same time: (a) cool the vehicle after it's hypersonic passage through the lower atmosphere and (b) propel the vehicle to LEO to dock with the orbital refueling station GW has been designing.

As a reminder for those who might read this post but not earlier ones about SpinLaunch, SpinLaunch has encountered difficulty finding a site for their big orbital facility. As near as I can tell from limited reporting that is available, it sounds as though the population near ** all ** the proposed launch sites does not want the facility anywhere near them. This is on top of the extreme technical difficulty of extending the swing arm system up in size to what is needed for the orbital version.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-15 08:09:21

It is Sunday and Google Meeting day for NewMars...

Present plans are to open the Waiting Room shortly before 1 AM UTC, 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire

We have a lot going on these days, so we'll have a lot packed into the hour.

Business items might include:
1) Implementation of new directory for file and image service
2) Resume work on "Like" feature
3) Restore recent database backup to Azure

Technical items might include:
1) Chemical Space Tug status
2) Focused Solar Space Tug concept

Update: Here are links to recent posts by kbd512 that are pertinent to discussion of Focused Solar Propulsion
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 68#p228568
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 69#p228569
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 70#p228570
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 71#p228571

This set of four posts appears to describe a complete system. There may be a few details to add.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-15 19:01:52

The Google Waiting room is open

The business meeting was short. kbd512 has created a directory where we will (hopefully) eventually store files to be served to visitors.

The next step is to design a php script to allow the Moderators to place files in the directory. This will require a bit of research to figure out. Moderators can already make a selected number of changes to the database. This new capability would be a step above that, because it would involve storing files in the directory tree. Php scripts already create files in the directory tree, so I'm confident we can figure this out, but it will take some time.

The strategy we agreed upon is that kbd512 will inform me of the directory name he chose, and i will set that up in the Azure clone of our forum software. I'll be able to build the new capability in the clone and we can test it until it is safe to install in the production system.

***
The bulk of this evening's meeting was devoted to detailed discussion of kbd512's vision of a Focused Solar Propulsion system.

kbd512 published the essence of the idea in four posts in a related topic. Embedded within that four post series was identification of a lens designed to refract light in a way that produces a beam. kbd512's idea is to use the inverse of that, and he showed me examples of the idea used to deliver light into underground spaces. The technology is called 'tir" and Google has lots of data on it. See: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 70#p228570

In a follow up to the opening post by GW Johnson in the new Focused Solar Propulsion topic, kbd512 proposes multiple light gathering subsystems instead of one large one as shown by GW. The gathered light would be fed through optical fiber and delivered to an engine casing.

In the four post series, kbd512 shows how it is possible to increase thermal transfer efficiency by introducing turbulence/mixing into the flow of Hydrogen gas.

kbd512 also proposed use of a secondary heat transfer loop to further improve thermal transfer efficiency.

***
Along the way we compared and contrasted Newtonian and Cassegrain reflecting telescopes.

I had forgotten the distinction... The Newtonian design uses a secondary mirror to send photons out the side of the tube.

A Cassegrain design feeds photons through a hole at the bottom of the tube.

In this case, kdb512's design would be using the Cassegrain configuration.

***
We discussed the area of light collection equipment. It appears that the area would be on the order of three American football fields in size, or approximately the size of the footprint of the entire stadium. The actual figures were (on the order of) 180 meters square.

This size of solar collection area would produce just under a ton of thrust by consuming one kilogram of hydrogen per second.

The mass of the system is to be determined.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-15 22:08:11

For kbd512 ....

I came up with a length of 200 kilometers for a stack of systems each of which produces 900 kg of thrust at the rate of 1 kg of hydrogen per second per segment.

200 kilometers is possible in space. The required number of 900 kg units would simply be bolted together to produce the required thrust.

I think you might be able to demonstrate the 900 kg unit in LEO, with a modest level of support.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-22 07:36:55

Today is Sunday and it is Google Meeting day for NewMars...

The Waiting Room will open (if all goes well) at 1 AM UTC, 7 PM Houston and 8 PM New Hampshire.

For business items we have identification of the name of the new directory where files are to be stored for member display.

This information will feed into the test environment on Azure.

For discussion we have multiple items:

1) New space plane post by PhotonBytes
2) Ongoing Space Tug work by GW Johnson
3) kbd512 work on Optical Energy Collection via flat plane structure
4) Void identification of wind energy potential on Venus

Others as they come up

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-22 18:57:53

The waiting room is open.

Post meeting round up...

from my perspective, that was another rewarding meeting...

kbd512 was in fine form again, and the range of topics covered was wide and deep.

Of note: The directory where files are to be stored has a name: forum_user_file_uploads

This is helpful because I can now begin construction of the needed software on my home development PC, and on the Azure system.

Item: We investigated the behavior of the search system. It is working but results were different than we expected. kbd512 reset the system cache as an experiment to see if the issue we saw corrects itself.

Item: The most recent post(s) by kbd512 consider the difference in air pressure at various altitudes on Venus as compared to Earth.

The discussion included the physics of how the Trompe systems that Calliban described work. What is known is that air injected into a stream of falling water is compressed by the water as the two descend a pipe under the influence of gravity. What kbd512 brought to the discussion is the idea that the pressure of the air at the top of the water fall is less than it is at the bottom. However, the compression by falling water is (apparently) greater than the compression caused by altitude. This is another of many examples of discussions that would be greatly improved if numbers were available.

Item: fiber optical cable

This is where most of our time was invested. The working hypothesis is that it might be possible to design a physical device able to replicate the light gathering function of the devices kbd512 has already shown us in the Focus Solar topic. The working examples are physically large devices (hand sized, for example). What is if interest is a device a millimeter in diameter, able to collect photons that enter it's Sun facing port, and to redirect those photons down a fiber optic cable that is itself a millimeter in diameter. There is a limit to the number of lumina that a given fiber can carry, but I am guessing that the number of photons that impinge upon a surface 1 millimeter wide and 100 meters long is less than whatever that limit might be.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-29 08:14:43

Today is Google Meeting day at NewMars.
Plans are to open the waiting room at 1 AM UTC. 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire

A lot has happened in the past week, and there is plenty to talk about...

It appears that it has been established that a small fission reactor can cool itself adequately on the surface of Venus. I had been worried about the high "low" side of the heat pump, but apparently net power for maneuver and tools will be available even for a hot side as low as 800 Celsius, and certainly for a hot side of 1200 Celsius.

We have multiple use cases to consider for a Venus probe. kbd512 is looking beyond exploration to actual mining operations. I am interested in the exploration use case, which would be better supported by a buoyant design similar to a deep ocean exploration submersible on Earth. The viscosity of the atmosphere on Venus will insure that movement will be slow/gentle and at no time will there be a risk of a "crash", as has been observed on Earth when dirigibles lose buoyancy on Earth when flying in air.

Oldfart1939 brought to the attention of NewMars readers the properties of a substance made of Carbon, able to withstand solar radiation near the Sun, and thus suitable for solar sails to achieve significant velocity for interstellar flight.

If SpaceNut is able to stop in, we have a chance of an update on his home remodeling project.

If GW Johnson is able to stop in, we might learn a bit about the recent work he has been doing in developing an entire set of vehicles and flight plans for Mars exploration and settlement, based upon his Space Tug concept. For a reader who has not been following GW's work closely, the Space Tug first showed up when GW decided to see what it would take to put RobertDyck's Large Ship at Mars. It turned out that separating the main thrust component from the Large Ship itself helped greatly to facilitate a flight to Mars for such a large, rotating passenger vessel.

Subsequently, GW has found an amazing number of use cases for his Space Tug designs.

***
kbd512 recently took a look at a solar powered Space Tug, and that work included investigation of capture of photons in a large array of tiny capture devices (that already exist in large form) and routing those photons to a heat engine of some kind to produce thrust. This investigation will be of potential interest to readers who might not be following closely. If the technology is feasible (let alone practical) the photons would be collected rather than reflected from a gigantic mirror.

***
RobertDyck has recently returned to work on his greenhouse for Mars concept. Unlike so many others, RobertDyck is planning for greenhouses above ground, and working on details of how such systems would be designed, constructed and managed.

Other topics may come up. They usually do.

***
On the business side, we have new features in early stages:

1) File deliver for members to serve images or pdf files from the Mars Society servers
2) The long awaited "like" feature, for which the opening line appears at bottom left on every post.

Update: While searching for information about design of deep ocean submersibles, I ran across this paper on shaping a sphere for the purpose:
https://www.mdpi.com/2411-9660/7/1/12

The idea seems simple enough... use hydraulic pressure inside the sphere to force a spherical shape. That is in contrast to welding sections of the wall together.\

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-29 18:05:36

Test of Equipment went OK at 00:05:00 UTC.

Waiting room is open as of UTC 00:58

Post meeting summary:

This was another rewarding, informative and interesting meeting!

GW Johnson and kbd512 were in fine form, and there was never a moment of dead air time.

I'll have difficulty recording everything that flew by, but I'll try.

First up, kbd512 put up a demonstration link for the new file service feature we are working on.

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 21#p228821

For kbd512... was that the ship you served on?

What this demonstration shows is that the feature we are hoping to develop would allow files (pdf's or images) to be served from the Mars Society servers, so we are not dependent upon free services (like dropbox or imgur) that could go away at any time.

***
GW Johnson's Space Tug project .... we got to see images GW is working on for his next article ... they show his latest thinking about a one-way payload delivery system for Mars that would NOT create a debris field of discarded items such as parachutes or a heat shield. Instead, the vehicle would land on it's heat shield, with four ? small legs extended to insure stability in case the landing spot is uneven. On the other hand, the vehicle will have some hover capability, so as the onboard controller guides the vehicle toward the surface, it will have the ability to evaluate the landing site and move if necessary, as was the case with Apollo 11.

***
kbd512 has been thinking about the optical photon capture concept, but at this point he is still doing research to see if the idea is feasible. I'd like to emphasis that this is real technology that exists (and has existed for some time). What is new and different and may not even be possible, is to capture a photon and cause it turn 90 degrees and proceed along an optical fiber along with other photons captured in the same way along the length of the fiber.

To visualize this, think of a plane that is 100 meters wide and a kilometer long. That would be width just slightly greater than an American football field.

If kbd512 can get this concept to work, and there is no assurance it is possible at this point, then the cost and complexity of a field of solar panels would be eliminated, and efficiency of photon collection would be (or more accurately) ** could be ** increased compared to that field of solar panels.

The difference is that if kbd512 can get the concept to work, then the photons would be delivered to a heat engine with no energy lost due to all the causes that steal energy from solar panels. He may find ** other ** ways to lose energy along the optical fiber, or at the junction.

Another difference is with "traditional" solar thermal devices. At present (to the best of my knowledge) all such devices use mirrors of one shape or another to collect photons and direct them to a concentration point where they are put to use. The complexity of some of these systems is high, such as a solar tower. Even an array of barrel shaped concentrating mirrors is "complex" compared to the collection method kbd512 is investigating.

All that said, the fact that no one has done this before is evidence it may not be possible in the Real Universe.

The fact that it is ** theoretically ** possible is meaningless in this context.

***
We wrapped up the hour with a robust discussion of the Venus probe topic that has been active on the forum recently. We looked at a set of charts that GW found on the Internet, and we looked at images of various kinds of undersea exploration vehicles. In the final five minutes or so we looked at the performance of glass with temperature, and I came away concluding that a glass sphere is not going to be possible on Venus, at the surface. It very likely would be quite practical a few kilometers above the surface.

We spend some time looking at a chart showing the optimum location for a buoyant platform for humans to set up a base, and concluded the magic number is somewhere around 55 kilometers.

***
Kbd512 brought wind differential into the discussion, as a way to pull power from Venus in whatever quantity is needed to sustain the human habitat at 55 kilometers. I don't recall seeing this idea in any of the (numerous) science fiction scenarios I've read about life on Venus. kbd512 suggested dropping a sea anchor to a lower altitude so that the habitat is slowed down with respect to the winds at the altitude where it is floating. The net effect is to create a relative wind past the habitat, and this wind can drive ordinary wind turbines to create electric power.

All in all, that was an hour that just flew by.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-05 07:46:39

Today is Google Meeting day at NewMars once again....

If current plans hold, the waiting room will open just before 1 AM UTC, 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire.

GW Johnson has been making steady progress in development of a comprehensive Space Tugs vision.

RobertDyck has been working on greenhouse design and use, and now has joined the optical plane venture

SpaceNut has been dealing with severe winter weather in remodeling his house. At last report two weeks ago the old roof was removed and tarps installed. Hopefully a new metal roof is in place.

kbd512 has a number of irons in the fire.

I've been spending most of my free time working with the second generation 3D printer. I'm trying to develop a market for 3D printed objects in the local community.

Business items:

The system that performs database integrity checks is back online, and the last two runs were near perfect. We only had one pothole in 2000 posts, which is a new record. The most likely reason for a pothole is someone deleted a post. That can happen if an Admin moves a post from one topic to another.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-05 18:49:04

Setup for tonight's meeting is under way. The weather in parts of the country is severe. Hoping everyone is alright.
The Waiting Room is open but I'll be in and out for a few minutes.

Follow up:
This was another interesting/productive meeting.
GW Johnson arrived at about 15 after the hour, so kbd512 had time to dive deep into SCO2 technology.

We had ** just ** gotten to the size of the turbine, which is small enough to fit in a Pringle can, when GW arrived.

We then wrapped up the SCO2 discussion, and spent some time on GW's vision of a book about Space Tugs.

We ended up realizing there are two potential audiences, so we are looking at two versions of the book.

One would be a textbook which (I hope) a professor would select for a course on space related technology.

The other would be a version for the general public, to try to help students and adults understand the general nature of the concept of Space Tugs as a factor in the growth of space commerce in the decades and centuries ahead. The maritime tug industry on Earth is huge, and I am confident the same will be true in space.

No large vessel is going to be trusted to come within a safety zone around an orbital facility under it's own power. Station tugs under the control of the facility are going to be required.

***
We ended the meeting with spirited discusion of kbd512's idea of using kinetic weapons in the modern age. Kinetic weapons go back to the stone age and probably even further. The got a significant boost during the Cold War, when Ronald Reagan supported the Star Wars vision. Now we have kbd512 proposing a return to the concept using small drones with wings and propellers, to overwhelm the defenses of a sophisticated first tier adversary with sheer numbers of inexpensive flying mass.

***
Coming out of this evening's discussion are several todo items. We'll see next week how far we got.

(th)

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 11:17:40

It is Sunday and time for another of a long running series of Google Meetings for NewMars.

If current plans hold, the Waiting Room will open at 1:00 UTC 7 PM Houston 8 PM New Hampshire

GW Johnson is working on his Space Tugs concept, with at least one book a possible outcome, and two if we are lucky

In addition, GW Johnson is working on an ambitious vision for a three phase Mars Settlement. That work will surely see publication in some form, with the NewMars forum a possible first site, along with the exRocketman blog.

kbd512 has multiple irons in the fire...

The optical plane concept has the greatest upside near term potential by far, because if it works, it can work on Earth.

A set of options for Venus exploration and mining are in various stages of development. The most recent addition to the mix is a concept for harnessing the natural flow of gas already in place on Venus, as the Sun heats the surface, and hot gas rises. On Earth, such rising columns of hot gas are routinely harnessed by birds and occasionally by glider pilots. On Venus, if humans can learn how to harness those forces, they might provide power while the Sun is overhead.

The "day" on Venus is much longer than the same interval on Earth. According to NASA Science, a "day" on Venus is 243 Earth days.

That means that the heat engine that might be built to harness natural gas flows would run for only about a third of the time, but while it is working it would be uninterrupted.

It is possible that the energy collected while the Sun is available might be stored, so that machinery can continue to operate during a long Venus night.

***
Others are working on Real Universe problems...

SpaceNut is continuing work on remodeling of his home in New Hampshire. The weather has been unkind of late.

Calliban is working on a wind driven rock tumbler, and at last report the machine is (apparently) nearly ready to be put into service.

(th)

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 18:56:54

The Waiting Room is open.

GW Johnson just finished a document, so I'm hoping he'll drop in.

kbd512 just posted a super long, super detailed summary of mining potential at Venus.

(th)

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 20:07:57

Sorry folks... the Google Meeting cut out without giving me a warning.

Thanks for a terrific meeting!

Post meeting notes:

This was another interesting and productive meeting, with GW Johnson and kbd512 both in fine form! The ideas flowed without a break, and we were still going strong when Google pulled the plug without warning.

Or if there was a warning, I missed it.

We talked about the paper that GW just finished on a three phase concept for Mars settlement. We would like to find a venue for publication of this paper that would reach a wider audience than the exRocketman blog or the NewMars forum.

kbd512 talked about his long and detailed post about the potential of Venus to supply much needed minerals for human projects of various kinds.

We went on from that to discuss his idea for capturing power from natural processes that are already happening on Venus.

We returned to GW Johnson to think about the counter rotating ship design he has described in papers already published on NewMars in the GW Johnson topic.

We considered a wide range of issues, including radiation.

Somewhere along the way we transitioned to GW's baton concept, and we looked in detail at his baton tube filled with inflatable habitat modules. And ** that ** led us to look at Sierra Space's work on the inflatable habitat concept. We were deep in that discussion when Google pulled the plug.

Thanks to kbd512 and GW for a most interesting meeting!

GW sent these images to show part of our conversation this evening:

Counter Rotating Vessel plus Space Tug-assisted

Baton style artificial Gravity

Space Tug assisted Earth Departure

(th)

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