Production Methods, Biochemical-Electrochemical-Other, Discussions

Void · 2024-12-04 08:22:49

(th) and others, I have made the topic fairly wide in scope. A sort of a party place for generalist thinking.

(th) had a question, which I list here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 09#p228309
Quote:

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 19,539
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For Void re stunning find re "plasma" to make oxygen
Thanks for finding and posting this important research discovery!
A key element your report did not include was that the method involves use of an electron beam.
Humans have been using electron beams in television sets for decades.
It would be great if we could (somehow) find a way to fit this discovery into a topic other than crops.
I'm not sure where it is the best fit, and invite your thoughts.
This method might even deserve it's own topic, but where to put it is a question.
The stunning aspect (from my perspective) is the surprising match of the atmosphere of Mars (composition and density) with the method.
I am hoping our members will refrain from trying to apply this method to other situations. It may be very specific to the competition with MOXIE, and have no value otherwise.
Update: Thanks for putting your report of the new oxygen production method in Life Support systems.
I am wondering if it might be appropriate to create a new topic in Life Support Systems for Oxygen Production.
We don't seem to have a topic with that specific focus.
Here are the existing topics:
Excess Oxygen by JoshNH4H
Life support systems 4 2024-08-13 06:44:48 by Calliban
2
KO2 oxygen for spacesuits by RobertDyck
Life support systems 5 2022-05-08 06:15:46 by Mars_B4_Moon
3
Regolith processing to create oxygen only by SpaceNut
Life support systems 7 2022-03-12 14:41:59 by SpaceNut
4
Solar Mirror CO2 to Oxygen Converter by Dook
Life support systems 10 2021-01-24 17:33:09 by SpaceNut
5
Extra Oxygen? by JoshNH4H
MOXIE is a method, as is the plasma (electron beam) method you found.
Do you think a new topic for "Oxygen Production on Mars" would make sense?
Would anyone use it if we create it?
(th)

(th) your assertion that that post about a plasma method to produce a chemical disequilibrium was about Oxygen alone is an error of expressed nature of your perception of the materials in the post. I did most definitely indicate the production of a fuel material, or a production of reduction. Technically even a "Food" source. And typically "Crops" do just the same thing. Produce reduced organic matter, and Oxygen.

I would ask you not to become sensitive about the above paragraph. You are trying to get me to get to a clearer level of thinking and that is just the same as my words above might achieve for you.

While this is a technical topic, I did include the word Discussion. I intend this to be a place where we attempt to become clear about how we discuss things.

As a person with a Male body type as historically methods of evaluation would designate me, I also have a feminine subconscious, if you believe Carl Jung. My Anima, I believe. For the Male, it typically is based in a singular way on the Mother figure. (For a Female body type with associated body chemistry and process, an Animus which is masculine is supposed to exist, based on many various experiences with males, good or bad).

So, I claim both the Masculine and Feminine thinking process for myself. So, I am not insulting the female-in-body-and-mind, gender).

We can do circular or linear thinking with good or bad results each.

The value of the circular is that you may visit an established body of thought and perhaps enhance it in a repeated evaluation. The bad side of this is to not be open to new things.

Linear thinking may establish an intention to progress from point A to point B. This could prove to be useful or pointless.

An example of linear from me, is this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 19#p228219
An example of a circular opinion with the intent at infanticide is this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 51#p228251

Robert is not wrong to express an opinion, but to circle back to what was already an established method and to do a kill-thought move, I feel I am against. Robert is not wrong to value the circular path to an old process, but probably should have left me with room to continue a path from A to B, for a new and perhaps supplementary process.

Next, we have the Specialist vs. Generalist concerns.

I believe in a sine wave "Fourth Turning".

I also take into account conversations from George Friedman.

I think that we have a lack of generalist thinkers now. After WWII we had plenty of them and they could encourage the rising of specialists of the 20th century where we had great economic gains. But our generalist leadership is now mostly in the graveyards, or beyond their effectiveness in this world. The problem with leadership from specialists, is that they do not see the bigger picture. Elon Musk has been said by some to be a generalist. Orange Man is sort of one as well, as he did not originate in the field of politics. And he seems to be distributing authority to staff who may be able to help him see a bigger picture. The previous ones are career politicians, as I understand it, and resist updating their thinking. So, the new team may have a more generalized idea of reality, and so in fact be in a possession of a better evaluation of reality. Perhaps an updated perception of reality, which we need.

Here, I feel I have dipped my mind into multiple specializations though my life and can sometimes see how possibility exists for "Cross-Over" thinking. Circular is less likely to do that, as it is the multiple re-evaluations of a already created topic.

But this is all good, as you suggested, I will move a post from the Crops topic to here. It has Cross-Over characteristics in it.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-04 09:25:13)

Void · 2024-12-04 09:13:48

Link to resources: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 13#p190313

From: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 51#p228251
A post of Callibans, and below a post that did follow his, but is not deleted in that topic.

Then a transplanted post:

Quote:

A good post Calliban:
The most readily consumable carbon sources produced via CO2 electrolysis at relatively high efficiencies are ethanol and acetate.27,28,29 Metabolically, ethanol is converted to acetate with alcohol dehydrogenase and acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. Both ethanol and acetate can be used to cultivate common eukaryotic organisms such as yeast or mushroom-producing fungi, which are already consumed as food (Figure 1). Acetate can also serve as the sole carbon and energy source for some species of green algae. Acetate is highly miscible in water and has a one-step metabolic route to acetyl coenzyme A (acetyl-CoA), the biologically active form of acetate that is a substrate in many biochemical reactions. The high miscibility and accessibility to acetyl-CoA makes acetate consumption easy to engineer, allowing acetate to be readily metabolized and used for energy and biomass production (Figure 1). Acetate can also be taken up and metabolized by plants; recently, electrochemically produced acetate has been shown to be able to support the production of crops with a 4x improvement in solar-to-food efficiency over conventional photosynthetic agricultural approaches.12 The high concentration, efficiency, and purity of electrochemically produced acetate,29 its short metabolic pathway, relatively high number of donor electrons, and compatibility with many organisms already cultivated for food make acetate the leading CO2 electrolysis product for electro-ag feedstock.
Hopefully you will not consider it to be vandalism if I remember the notion that plasma may be another route to split molecules on Mars, and perhaps in Mars like conditions elsewhere.
https://www.science.org/content/article … xygen-mars
Quote:
Plasma reactors could create oxygen on Mars
Approach splits atmospheric carbon dioxide, but still has kinks to work out
16 Aug 202211:10 AM ETByJacklin Kwan
https://phys.org/news/2022-08-harvestin … asmas.html
Quote:
August 16, 2022
Harvesting resources on Mars with plasmas
by American Institute of Physics
I hope you don't think that I am doing a "Circular Firing Squad" here as Isaac Arthur calls it. I am not trying to replace an idea, but to list yet another one.
I have notions about what might happen with Radiolysis. I expect the production of split H20 and CO2 to lead to excess Oxygen, if microbes are consuming the fuels. This is because they cannot build their bodies if they are returning all the Hydrogen and Carbon to the Original Oxidation. It may be however that in ocean sediments the rocks absorb the left over Oxygen.
Using Plasma may produce a similar result. That is if you keep it simple and have a thin atmosphere of CO2 with a pinch of Nitrogen, you might primarily create O2 and CO. Of course, the CO is poison, but it is also food to some microbes. So, you might simply inject the gasses to a body of water with nutrients needed and the microbes would be forced to extract Hydrogen from H20, while consuming the CO. In the end if you were careful, you might end up with a mix of O2 and a bit of Nitrogen. If you wanted to, however you could introduce, Hydrogen from some source. You might even add humidity to the Martian air in a container to provide it.
This article suggests a method to create Ethanol from CO and ??? (Hydrogen source I presume), using microbes: https://theconversation.com/meet-the-mi … uel-240066 Quote:
But even to carbon monoxide-eating microbes, carbon monoxide can be toxic. In essence, this is because they can’t really choose whether they want to eat the carbon monoxide or not. Carbon monoxide is kind of a bully. If it’s there, they have to eat it. Just like Miss Trunchbull forcing poor Bruce to eat the entire chocolate cake in Roald Dahl’s Matilda. Much like Bruce though, carbon monoxide eaters are resilient. If the carbon monoxide pressure around them gets too high, they deal with it by turning the carbon monoxide into ethanol. Conveniently so, because this means that if we let these microbes grow at high carbon monoxide pressures, they will make lots of ethanol for us.
So, a method, possibly a plasma method, might produce the feed gasses from CO2 or CO2 and H20 vapors, and then a production of Ethanol might be possible. Ethanol then can be a fuel on Mars, and a source to plug into the process you have mentioned in your post Calliban.
As for the Toxic Nature of CO, I think that the Oxygen that could be extracted might be passed though a hot Catalyst method of some kind to Oxidize the remaining CO. But I will confess, it may be that some microbes will Oxidize Ethanol produced, or CO produced, so that is a concern.
So, the production of chambers of water on Mars, may allow a plasma or other type of splitting of CO2 and perhaps H20, and microbes may convert toxic CO into fuel, and there may be Oxygen left over. If solar power were used, then rather than a simple electric grid, the energy from the panels could then go to submerged plasma devices, in a volume of gasses of CO2, N2, and perhaps H20.
Fuels can easily be stored if they can be extracted.
If you had a sizable lake you could install a very salty nature of bottom waters to prevent convection and might be able to dissolve Oxygen into those pressurized waters, or have Oxygen tanks down there under pressure.
This then might be an answer to dust storms and winters.
But of course Nuclear could be a very nice thing as waste heat could also maintain a melted body of water.
Ending Pending

Well, I hope this helps comfort you (th) and also the other members.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-05 09:05:05)

Void · 2024-12-04 20:57:48

I sense a disturbance in the force, and I regret that it is so. But as the damage is done, then I should not not do what I persisted for.

I like this item: https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves … s_of_Gases
Image Quote: CNX_Chem_11_03_gasdissolv_2.jpg?revision=1

I would have liked CO2 included, but I believe that it is extremely soluble in water, particularly cold water.

My interest in this is that we might have a chance to shoehorn in the Martian environment which I consider to be marginal to life into a living process, using pressure and solution tricks and something like the plasma devices previously discussed in this topic.

I want productivity, and sense that we have chances of it. But it is not a free gift, we have to work for it.

We may think that we can split molecules on Mars CO2 and maybe H20. We might involve Nitrogen in the results. So, that sounds like chemical disequilibrium that could be attractive to living things.

But I plan to mess with Henry's Laws to bring the process results to a situation more compatible with life processes.

Pause................(Oops! fell asleep)

Anyway I have adapted this drawing. It is not ideal but may be sufficient:

So, chambers on the surface at ambient Martian air pressure and perhaps cool temperatures, is where multiple Plasma processing units might be positioned. They might be solar powered, with solar panels mounted on them.

The produced gasses from the Plasma Process could be compressed, and routed to an air pocket under water. There, microbes may be able to make use of the potentially life giving gasses CO and O2, with some Nitrogen products, and maybe OH and H2 as well.

I will intend to discuss Henry's Laws for this tomorrow.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-05 00:22:29)

Void · 2024-12-05 09:06:47

This calculator, suggests that liquid water could be maintained at a low pressure: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

For -2 Centigrade, we may tolerate a pressure of 5.2256 mbar, which is compatible with the Plasma devices.

Microbes and Lichen are presumed to be able to photosynthesize at temperatures as low as -20, although perhaps not with strength.

If we built a structure on Mars which could have a "Wet Floor" of sea water simulant, then we could build it of relatively light materials, as it would not need to hold a high pressure. Microbes living on this "Wet Floor", might receive chemicals to grow. To harvest, you would simply use a squeegee type device perhaps. This is the Basic Upgrade, that I think is possible to slide a Modified Martian Environment from very life challenging, to possibly productive.

For this "Wet Floor" device we could allow for windows to let some sunlight in which may increase the number of types of microbes that could grow in this environment. However, we also could avoid that as well as per any preference.

If we were avoiding it, then we could mount solar panels on the structure's envelope. If the structures envelope has some weight then we might raise the internal pressure a bit, while wanting to avoid damaging the Plasma molecule splitting process. For instance, 12.2118 mbar, would provide a boiling point of 10 degrees centigrade. That pressure is just a bit above the highest air pressure presently occurring on Mars. That would be in the bottom of Hellas.

A boiling point of 20 degrees centigrade would require a pressure of 23.2977 mbar.

For a boiling point of 33 degrees a pressure of 50.1792 mbar, which is about 1/20th of sea level pressure on Earth, and is likely to be compatible with many life forms, but not so much the "Higher??? Ones".

Such a pressure may not be compatible with the Plasma molecule splitting process however, so strangely enough we may have chambers inside of the "Wet Floor" structure where we could apply a "Greater Partial Vacuum".

To be honest this "Wet Floor" device will tend to bleed water vapor, as the air being so dry outside, it will try to draw moisture out of the structure. And I want to make the structure compatible with robots as well, and excessive corrosive moisture and slippery floors would not be a good thing for robots.

So, we might have special sub-chambers inside of the main structure where we could push the results of the Plasma Molecule Splitting Process.

If we do that then we might be allowed to drop the interior pressure of the Main Structure back down to near Martian Surface Pressure. Robots then can work in that environment and have access to the outside with a very minimal "Air Lock".

In many cases, that could be done. But you might deepen the water in a "Wet Floor", structure, lets say to 10 feet deep. Feet are a convenient unit of measure for water column on Mars. On Mars 100 feet of water will give approximately 1 bar of pressure. Adding salts will change that a bit though.

So, this would be an open water lake under a structure at a pressure very near Martian Ambient Outside Pressure.

As such, normally it would be subject to Henry's Laws, for dissolved gasses in water. So the pressure on the surface of the water, would determine how much gas was dissolved in all of the water at any depth. But if we stratify the water using salt gradients, we may alter the bottom waters, and dissolve about 20 times the gas into those bottom waters as the top waters could hold. Due to the stratification we may also raise the bottom water temperatures higher than the -2 degrees centigrade temperatures of the surface water.

So, we could possibly have the equivalent pressure of 1/10th bar on the bottom and perhaps permit a temperature as high as 49.9 degrees centigrade, provided that the salt gradients were enough to prevent water turnover. In many ways this provides an environment compatible with life better than the surface waters, but then excessive salt content can also restrict the life processes of organisms. So, it would depend on the microbes you wanted to grow in the water.

I want to take a breakfast, so I will conclude for a time, but then when I come back I am going to revisit "Ice Covered" reservoirs of water.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-05 09:44:48)

Void · 2024-12-05 11:26:17

I am going to run on the notion that Candor Chaos could be a first settlement on Mars, if landing abilities exist, and if the water detected there is suitable.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … e-equator/ Quote:

Space
Large deposits of water found on Mars below the surface at the equator
Previous discoveries of water on Mars were limited to the poles or deep underground, but water deposits spotted near the surface at the equator could be easily accessed by future astronauts
By Alex Wilkins
16 December 2021

https://www.sci.news/space/valles-marin … 10378.html
Image Quote:
Quote:

Valles Marineris can be seen stretching across this frame, overlaid by colored shading representing the amount of water mixed into the uppermost meter of soil (ranging from low amounts in orange-red to high in purple-blue tones, as measured by TGO’s FREND instrument). The colored scale at the bottom of the frame shows the amount of ‘water-equivalent hydrogen’ (WEH) by weight (wt%). As reflected on these scales, the purple contours in the center of this figure show the most water-rich region. In the area marked with a ‘C,’ up to 40% of the near-surface material appears to be composed of water (by weight). The area marked ‘C’ is about the size of the Netherlands and overlaps with the deep valleys of Candor Chaos, part of the canyon system considered promising in our hunt for water on Mars. The underlying gray shading in this image represents surface topography, and is based on data from the Mars Global Surveyor Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter (MGS/MOLA). The axes around the frame show location (latitude and longitude) on Mars. Image credit: Mitrofanov et al., doi: 10.1016/j.icarus.2021.114805.

Pause for coffee.......................

My most wishful thinking is that the water reported in Candor Chaos is a Cryovolcanic Eruption somehow.

I am not sure that that is possible, but maybe. We might suppose that there could be faults though which aquifer waters might flow up as Artesian, or if you like Cryovolcanic Eruptions.

In that location, I would expect such eruptions to be modified by sublimation of exposed ice, and an overburden of wind borne dust.

In any case, we are fairly sure that some patch of partial ice the size of the Netherlands exists. If the ice is not just shallow, but is also deep, then shaft Minning of water makes sense to me. This would provide "Make-Up" water, for reservoirs of water that could be maintained. The extraction method I prefer is sublimation with heat and vacuum to create such tunnels, but perhaps melting or even blasting might be done at times.

If this is done a network of permafrost caves could be created while obtaining "Make-Up" water.

https://www.erdc.usace.army.mil/CRREL/P … -Facility/
Image Quote, (Permafrost Tunnel):
https://www.erdc.usace.army.mil/Media/I … 003190754/

If we could then maintain lakes with a frozen surface, then we could put a layer of poly over the ice, and then some sort of felt, and then tiles, for a surface for robots and machines to work in. Then a sort of shed over that, possibly with solar panels mounted on it.

This does not forbid the use of nuclear power as Calliban and others vouch for, or greenhouses as Robert Dyck and others vouch for. In fact the inclusion of both of those give better chances of success for the whole effort.

And also, I do not exclude the possible use of Moxie or other electrochemical processes in this scheme.

I am sure I already have more things to add, but that is likely to come later.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-05 13:04:13)

Void · 2024-12-06 08:07:03

From the just previous post, permafrost tunnels:

https://www.erdc.usace.army.mil/CRREL/P … -Facility/
Image Quote, (Permafrost Tunnel):
https://www.erdc.usace.army.mil/Media/I … 003190754/

Here are some images of permafrost tunnels: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=tu … RE&first=1

A NASA site: https://blogs.nasa.gov/earthexpeditions … ermafrost/ Image Quote:

I would be concerned that permafrost tunnels on Mars might outgas toxic things. But I suspect that that can be handled by new discovery of methods.

If it may be true that there is "High Quality", icy permafrost on Mars, then with a .38 gravity field, tunneling may provide both make-up water and modified to an improvement spaces. There may be some possibility to modify to the extent that pressurization may be possible. A tunnel with a finely finished surface, may have a balloon inserted into it, to allow pressurization. But the interior space has then to be kept cold to avoid weakening the permafrost.

But we might build a shelter inside of that that could have increased heating inside. Even a tent might do.

In order to make things even better we could involve a heat pump:

I have previously mentioned the presumed icy permafrost of Candor Chaos, which is the size of the Netherlands, as a place where we may create impounded bodies of water. Tunneling would be how to get "Make-Up" water to replace losses from evaporation and consumption. This tunnel method would be compatible with that as to get the water, extract it from permafrost. Then potentially creating more and more underground and perhaps in some cases pressurized and heated spaces.

If the permafrost is suitable, it may be possible to tunnel down to some soft type of rock and then tunnel into that as well to create additional habitation spaces.

It is likely that many left-over tunnels could be put to work as freezers to preserve long term food sources, for a "Bad Day".

While I have offered solar as a method to power a Mars city, I think it is a given that you would have some nuclear at the start and continuing on.

Some Permafrost Tunnels may host tanks of LOX for Oxygen storage. Those tunnels could be made colder than what it typical. The cold Mars nights might help facilitate that.

Of course if we want to have food and Oxygen, you need production equipment, and some of it might be hosted in Permafrost tunnels.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-06 08:41:47)

Void · 2024-12-09 08:54:23

I think that I may have a continuing interest in this video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

The mind-blowing thing we get WRONG about energy
YouTube
DW Planet A
437.7K views
6 months ago

I like the terminology in the video. I am not 100% sure that I am at a 100% trust level to what is presented as a proper way to evaluate energy, but I will see if osmosis over time will bring my comprehension level up.

I am currently trying to evaluate if a system that could benefit from then natural chemistry of the Mars atmosphere, can otherwise serve the interests of would be settlers on Mars.

I want to see if the Hydrogen, CO, and O2 in the Martian atmosphere can be utilized, without an unreasonable cost of efforts. These are all trace gasses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars
Quote:

Composition[3][4]
Carbon dioxide 95%
Nitrogen 2.8%
Argon 2%
Oxygen 0.174%
Carbon monoxide 0.0747%
Water vapor 0.03% (variable)

The amounts are so tiny that unless other needs are solved by a process that can capture the value of the gasses in disequilibrium, it seems unlikely that this would be a profitable effort.

As it can be seen, there is over twice as much Oxygen as CO, and Hydrogen has been mentioned as existing but it is not even given a percentage in the above table.

We now know that microbes exist on Earth which can make a living off of these gasses in the Earth's atmosphere: https://newatlas.com/biology/air-eating … ica-artic/ Quote:

Biology
Bacteria that "eat" only air found in cold deserts around the world
By Michael Irving
August 19, 2020

I think that it is very probable that there may be similar organisms that live in water as well.

Pause.......Breakfast................

But it may be needed to do some "Bio forming" to get a well tuned set of organisms to consume the CO and Hydrogen and some of the Oxygen.

Compressing it 150 times might produce heat, and also not quite reach 1 bar pressure.

Probably a Mars settlement will be at a lower elevation so that the radiation protection could be better.

I think that 7-9 mbar is attainable in many locations.

So, then I will use 7 mbar.

7 * 150 = 1050 mbar or about 1 bar.

1% of 1 bar is 10 mbar.

So then, I think that .0747 * 10 mbar = .747 mbar of CO.

1.74 mbar of O2?

.3 mbar of H20? It is variable. In the morning's, the RH% can be 70-100%.

I think I want to go over those numbers again.

I will double check them later. The precision is not important anyway. I expect that the CO and Hydrogen fuels are probably much more than they are for Earth's atmosphere.

If the Martian atmosphere has been compressed 150 time (Or some other number), then likely the pressure is sufficient for microbial life, and the temperatures have been elevated. If needed you could add some water to the mix, but these microbes can make their own water as well with Hydrogen from the atmosphere.

So, if you are going to compress Martian atmosphere, you need power. At this point typically some people will get hung up on Nuclear vs. Solar. I am supposing a mix of the two, so we don't have to have a stupid zero-sum contest over that.

So, if we have compressed the gas and heated it and also added water, if necessary, then we likely can facilitate the consumption of all the significant amount of CO gas and will have created biomass.

So, we have reduced the toxicity of the mix, and also created biomass, and also could have collected heat to a storage device. My current notion of a thermal storage device is a container of water with or without salts in it.

OK, this drawing shows how perhaps to get some useful results from a process, but I will want to build on it.

The very cold brine could have Perchlorate Salts in it, and you might bubble the exhaust air though it to reclaim water from that discharge gas. A vacuum distillation process would then be used to extract water vapor from the very cold brine.

It is possible that you would not need make-up water from a mine, but let's suppose you will as it is a useful activity to build the tunnels anyway. Unless it is to mine a special mineral somewhere settlements are likely to be somewhere where there is icy permafrost.

Since we are going to expect to have water, then we can split it by some process and create Hydrogen and Oxygen gasses. We could entertain a plasma method, or use electrolysis. The Oxygen we produce is perhaps high quality, so we use it for humans, and any other process requiring it. The Hydrogen is left over, so we can shunt some of it back into our process above.

OK, I think this process improves things a lot:
We may be able to consume most or all of the "Natural" Oxygen remainder, and may even have the microbes consume some of the CO2, depending on how much Hydrogen you inject.

You might end up with a precision fermented result of organic materials, and perhaps also Methane.

Now the exhaust gasses are likely to be CO2, Nitrogen, and Argon. And they will have been cooled quite a bit to scavenge the water vapors.

So, then you could compress the exhaust gasses and cool them until the CO2 liquifies. This may get you in the direction of having a Nitrogen/Argon remainder mix. Perhaps you would process that further if there was an economic reason to.

But you might add Oxygen to it, and expose it to microbes just to make sure all of the CO has been consumed. Then you would have something like Air.

You might vent the CO2 though a turbine, after heating it with Solar Thermal or Nuclear.

You might run a steam engine for vehicles with the mix of Argon and Nitrogen. The Martian air temperatures might be sufficient for that, or you might even use a heat source on the vehicles.

So, I think this is not the worst effort I have ever made.

As for the Precision Fermentation product, you could grow Mushrooms in it, and perhaps it would also have value in some other process.

Plugging Roberts chloroplasts photosynthesis process into this is not out of the question.

I have wondered if the chloroplasts can operate in more extreme environments than is normal for vascular plants.
For instance, cold, low pressure, and other stressful issues.

Otherwise I also think it would be good to BioForm a Algae or Cyanobacteria for that purpose.

Polar Sea water temperatures, and pressure as low as you can go. Hopefully down to 7 mbar more or less if possible.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-09 12:42:13)

Void · 2024-12-09 13:40:58

The process I have attempted in post #7, could include the pairing of lake bottom heat with liquid CO2 to provide a convenient source of electrical power, when it is most desired.

For instance, since air on Mars is likely to be most dense and humid just before morning, venting CO2 boiled with warm water from a lake bottom, could provide a non-solar timed opportunity to "Breath" the atmosphere of Mars, with a hoped for best result. This might seem like a perpetual motion machine, but it would not be, because it would be quite easy to capture solar thermal heat to store in the bottom of such a lake, during a Martian day.

In case some viewing this do not understand, the lake would be a bit like Antarctic Dry Valley Lakes, or a solar pond where salt gradients allow the storage of significant heat on a lake/pond bottom.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-09 13:42:19)

Void · 2024-12-09 14:36:03

I have had my eye on other methods to perhaps turn abiotic energy over to microbes and to hope they can create a resource. Here are a couple of items:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … cd63&ei=10
Quote:

Microbe opens the door to carbon dioxide–driven manufacturing
Story by Science X staff • 1mo • 4 min read

Quote:

Instead, the microbe relies on an alternative metabolic pathway in which carbon dioxide is converted to an organic molecule called acetate, without any methane released in the process. Notably, it is assisted in this operation through a unique gene called MmcX.

So, a mineral process allows organisms to fix CO2 using, quote:

This process creates waters that are rich in calcium, hydrogen and methane gas, but lacking in other ingredients typically necessary for life. Life thrives there nonetheless.

https://www.eceee.org/all-news/news/vol … cientists/
Quote:

Volcanic microbe eats CO2 ‘astonishingly quickly’, say scientists
(The Guardian, 19 Apr 2023) Discovery of carbon-capturing organism in hot springs could lead to efficient way of absorbing climate-heating gas.

It has been hard for me to get a strait story about this sort of thing. I believe that the sand dunes of Mars are to a large extent volcanic rock in fine form. Perhaps ejected from a pyroclastic volcanic process.

I understand that on Earth, these things would not last long, as they would "Weather" down.

My hope is that the dune materials dumped into a lake would also decay, and that with the assistance of microbes with CO2. I hope then that that may produce biomass, and Methane, and perhaps extraction of metals into a concentrate.

But I am not certain that would work.

So, the hope is that with CO2, H20, and the finely ground basalt from the Dunes, some chemical result will be beneficial. I expect that microbes may assist in the way that might play out.

Ending Pending

The decay process of the dune materials may produce a clay. Not sure may depend on temperature and PH.

In any case if the decay results contain organic matter from the Microbes, it may be possible to grow mushrooms on it.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-09 14:51:56)

Void · 2024-12-09 21:19:24

A Query on how clays form: "forming clay from basalt sand"

A response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=forming+c … &sp=5&lq=0

Query: "Clay forms from basalt though a process called weathering, where the minerals within the basalt rock break down over time primarily thought exposure to water and air, eventually creating clay particles."

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Clay+f … tp&pc=DCTS

So, I am hoping that a reaction of fine ground basalt such as Martian Sand Dune materials, can react in salty water, with components of atmosphere such as CO, CO2, H2, and so on. I am hoping that biology can plug itself into that process. If so, then the results may be a good soil with organic and clay materials in it. I am also hoping that at the very least you could grow mushrooms on that material. Thereafter it might be good soil also for growing plants, with light and perhaps Acetate.

https://time.com/4391522/curiosity-rove … -on-earth/
Image Quote: mars-dunes-ripples.jpg?quality=85&w=1920

While we may lose Martian atmosphere, primarily CO2 to this promoted weathering process, we can try to hope to replace it with what I would call a "Carrier" gas.

Nitrogen, Argon, and Oxygen are the primary carrier gasses that I can think of for Mars. They do not condense at the poles unless into a clathrate somehow. H20, and CO2 both condense at the poles, so that sort of atmosphere is prone to collapse.

Carrier gasses could carry heat between warm and cold locations without collapsing on Mars.

While it may be that at one time Mars had a thicker atmosphere and that helped it to be more Earth-Like, it also may have had a lot more carrier gasses than it does now. That could cause the climate to operate differently.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-09 21:42:21)

Void · 2024-12-16 14:33:17

Comments on this later: https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica … 8d05&ei=17
Quote:

Scientists convert bacteria into efficient cellulose producers
Story by Peter Rüegg • 4mo • 4 min read

Pause.....

Cellulose is a substance I have had an eye on for transport of valuable chemicals in space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose
Quote:

Cellulose is an organic compound with the formula (C6 H10 O5)
n, a polysaccharide consisting of a linear chain of several hundred to many thousands of β(1→4) linked D-glucose units.[3][4] Cellulose is an important structural component of the primary cell wall of green plants, many forms of algae and the oomycetes. Some species of bacteria secrete it to form biofilms.[5] Cellulose is the most abundant organic polymer on Earth.[6] The cellulose content of cotton fibre is 90%, that of wood is 40–50%, and that of dried hemp is approximately 57%.[7][8][9]
Cellulose is mainly used to produce paperboard and paper. Smaller quantities are converted into a wide variety of derivative products such as cellophane and rayon. Conversion of cellulose from energy crops into biofuels such as cellulosic ethanol is under development as a renewable fuel source. Cellulose for industrial use is mainly obtained from wood pulp and cotton.[6] Cellulose is also greatly affected by direct interaction with several organic liquids.[10]

Frankly I don't always like the presence of Oxygen in Cellulose, but it seems to be the way to create substance that is solid at temperatures we tend to tolerate.

As I see it when humans get out to the organic chemicals in the asteroid belt, one good way to transport these chemicals to the inner solar system is to lock them in Cellulose.

I think that with reasonable moderation of temperatures, and a minimal amount of thin metal armor, these substances are likely to be stable over fairly long times in space.

And unlike Water and CO2, and Methane, Cellulose can be a structural asset for the devices transferring the chemicals to a terrestrial location.

Depending on choices, a partly Cellulose spaceship could use Magdrive or perhaps Neumann Drive to spiral to a destination, then not needing to do a Ballistic Impact or an Aerobrake.

For the Moon Ballistic Impact could make sense in some location like the poles, if you slowed the ship down quite a lot prior to impact.

As for aerocapture, I wonder if you could put ablative structure of a regolith around it to give protection. I am tempted to wonder what would happen if you could somehow use active cooling of cellulose using some fluid. Still of course the ablative tiles of regolith will make much more sense.

I like the Adaptive-Mutation-Breeding method they engage in with their bacteria to improve productivity.

I have suggested something similar in another topics post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 18#p228518

In that scheme we would try to foster extreme microbes, and stress them and then back the stress off until they became economically productive.

I would hope to use a scheme of that sort, perhaps to grow the Cellulose as well.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-16 19:50:27)

Void · 2024-12-16 21:15:42

Here is something nice from Germany: https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/ … 5430&ei=14
Quote:

Microbes make nutrients out of thin air; richer source of protein than beef, fish
Story by Srishti Gupta • 3mo • 3 min read
Health Topics mentioned in this article

I believe that this is referred to as "Precision Fermentation".

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-16 21:17:11)

Void · 2024-12-16 21:21:46

Here is some fun: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 6b84&ei=13
Quote:

Astronauts could eat asteroids for food? Scientists propose radical space meal
Story by Mrigakshi Dixit • 2mo • 3 min read

Quote:

The study focused on carbonaceous chondrite asteroids like Bennu, which contain significant amounts of organic matter as well as 10.5% water. Bennu is a time capsule, which could provide insight into the formative years of the solar system. NASA’s OSIRIS-REx mission returned precious samples from the asteroid Bennu to Earth on September 24, 2023.

It is my understanding that most outer asteroids, and 40% of inner belt asteroids may be of a similar sort as Bennu.

Lots of food.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-16 21:24:45)

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