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SpaceNut, we did not have a topic with a title containing all three words "wind" "energy" and "capture"
We have many topics that are about various kinds of wind devices.
This topic is available for NewMars members who might wish to create posts that point to particular wind energy capture ideas they found in the archive, or which they are adding to the collection in another topic.
The kinds of wind energy capture devices that may come up for discussion include sails through propellers to advanced technology that has not yet been invented.
This topic is available for all of them.
If a NewMars member creates a post in this topic, please include a link to the post of interest and a brief text description of what the post is about.
This topic can also be used to hold a post about a wind energy capture device that is not already present elsewhere in the forum.
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Recently, kbd512 launched an inquiry about the possibility of using a wind energy capture device to deliver power to a location some distance away through mechanical transmission using a working fluid such as water.
Calliban then provided support for this idea, and suggested various fluids that might be alternatives to water.
Kbd512 then clarified that he meant a "vertical" wind energy capture device. Vertical wind energy capture devices have been built, but the vast majority of wind energy capture devices feature propeller blades rotating around a horizontal shaft that faces into the wind. The vast majority of these existing devices include an electric generator in a nacelle at the top of a tower, so that power is transmitted by the "fluid" of electrons moving through wires to remote locations.
In thinking about the failure of a large vertical wind turbine in Canada, due to failure of a single bearing that was carrying the entire weight of the system, it occurred to me that magnetic bearings (such as those patented by John Barber a number of years ago) would be able to support a wind energy capture device if enough of them were assembled for the purpose.
And ** that ** thought combined with an old idea ... use of sailboat sails to capture wind energy for production of power, instead of for propulsion of a vessel.
Mr. Barber's magnetic bearings would seem well suited for a wind energy capture system based upon vertical sails rotating around a central pivot.
In another topic, there is a report of a wind energy capture system (Airloom) that employs vertical sails made of metal. In that system, the metal sails run on a track that is held above the ground on towers. I'm unsure of the details of the design, but I ** think ** each sail is attached to a mechanical cable that delivers power to a single generator on the ring that creates a flow of electrons that is fed to a central location, or perhaps to the local electric grid.
A system based upon "sailboats" that are pivoting around a central pivot point would draw power at the central pivot point.
SearchTerm:sailboat wind energy collection system using magnetic bearings
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Just for a basis of comparison, the old-time farm windmill had a many-bladed disk turning a gearbox that doubled as a swivel mount. That gear box had a crank for its output, connected to a vertical rod inside the windmill tower that moved up and down through a modest stroke. The usual function was to pump water from a well to keep a water tank full. So the rod moving up and down operated the well pump.
The wind mill blades were flat sheet metal, rarely if ever cambered, and with as-cut edges. These are rather inefficient airfoils that easily stall. The typical Chicago Aermotor will make usual pumping power in winds as low as 2 or 3 mph, and will survive all but a direct hit by a tornado. When the wind speed is too high, the blades stall, limiting how fast the blades can turn against the resistance felt by the rod.
The operating range of wind speeds where the thing is efficient is rather narrow, limited by zero to a low stall angle of attack. Increase the stall angle of attack, and that efficient range of speeds broadens, at the risk of generating too much power in higher winds. You increase that stall angle by cambering the metal blades, and especially by folding the metal over at the leading edge to create a rounded edge.
Replace the reciprocating vertical sucker rod with a vertical turning shaft (by changing the gear box), and the thing could drive a stationary electric generator at the base of the windmill tower. Use DC, with min voltage output at min wind speed ~ 2-3 mph, switch the connections to the battery bank it charges, as wind speed increases. It still limits by stalling, just at a higher speed. It also still retains the ability to survive all but a direct hit by a tornado.
What more could you want out of a home wind generator?
GW
Last edited by GW Johnson (2024-01-29 09:21:45)
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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Self-lubricating bearings are a type of engine bearing that uses a dry lubricant to reduce friction between moving parts. Then we have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_bearing or Ferrofluid Bearings.
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Our correspondent in Alaska responded to my inquiry about capture of wind energy with a word picture of an Idea he's considered....
This would be on the ** very ** intermittent side, but it is definitely a way to collect wind energy ....
According to our correspondent, trees in Alaska have been observed to sway 40 feet from side to side during a strong storm.
A generator attached (somehow) to the tops of such trees would really zip along.
I am reminded of images I have seen of engineering drawings of "waving Post" wind capture devices. These capture the energy at the base, which moves little but with great power, as the top waves great distances with wind pressure.
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Our correspondent in Alaska responded to my inquiry about capture of wind energy with a word picture of an Idea he's considered....
This would be on the ** very ** intermittent side, but it is definitely a way to collect wind energy ....
According to our correspondent, trees in Alaska have been observed to sway 40 feet from side to side during a strong storm.
A generator attached (somehow) to the tops of such trees would really zip along.
I am reminded of images I have seen of engineering drawings of "waving Post" wind capture devices. These capture the energy at the base, which moves little but with great power, as the top waves great distances with wind pressure.
(th)
TH, that is a neat idea. At its simplest, we could tie a rope to the trunk of the tree and attach it to a pulley. We can then convert the swaying motion induced by gusts into linear motion. Linear motion can be used to generate power using positive displacement pumps that generate compressed air or pump a hydraulic fluid of some kind.
This is a low impact method of wind power generation that would be easier to impliment in places that have strict planning controls. It is also cheap because we can take advantage of something that nature provides for free. The only downside I can see is that the power available may be modest. We are drawing power from gusts, meaning that a large part of wind energy will be wasted. But that is less of a concern for offgrid applications in areas where people have a lot of space around them and plenty of trees. In a sparsely populated area, absolute efficiency isn't something we have to push so long as people have enough power at an affordable cost.
Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-14 07:39:45)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #6
Thank you for your encouraging reply! I'll pass it along!
If you have time to draw a sketch of how you would implement the idea, I'd be willing to see what DALL-E or BARD/Image make of it.
I think both AI's would have fun with the forest scenery. They both appear to enjoy being given creative freedom, and both appear to chafe at being asked to focus on specific concepts.
As I think about your idea, in the context of a forest in Alaska, it occurs to me that a ratcheting system might be used to lift a weight up a tall tree in bursts. At the top of the run, the weight would hold until the storm passes, at which point it can be released to turn a pulley with a constant rate. Depending upon the size of the tree and the amount of mass lifted, this might yield some useful current during the descent.
It seems to me that the NewMars forum is one of the few places on Earth (or the Solar System for that matter) where such ideas could occur.
We are venturing into Void-space here!
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Airloom is a company that is working on a wind energy capture concept that differs from traditional horizontal or vertical rotation devices.
Their system uses moving airfoils on a track.
Apparently they are still in early stages of testing their concept, and hope to be able to build a test rig early in 2025.
You can see some animation of their idea here: https://www.airloom.energy/
Here is a report from the CEO:
Update from Airloom Energy - November 2024
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Neal Rickner <info@airloom.energy> Unsubscribe
Nov 26, 2024, 3:42PM (16 hours ago)
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Friends of Airloom!
As we navigate the journey of creating the next era of wind power, we’re excited to share our latest updates with you. These past months have been a testament to the power of collaboration, innovation, and resilience as we work toward our shared vision of a cleaner, more sustainable future.
This update is where you’ll find highlights of our progress, insights from our team, and a glimpse into what’s on the horizon. Thank you for being part of our journey—we couldn’t do this without your support and belief in what we’re building:
1) We’re thinking through the impact of the election.
We’re optimistic that the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA)—a cornerstone of the renewable energy industry—will remain largely intact. This is because the economic benefits of the IRA are felt across the United States, but they are particularly impactful in red states, where many renewable energy projects are being developed. This bipartisan economic success makes it less likely that lawmakers will support efforts to dismantle the IRA.
That said, as Congress considers how to address upcoming fiscal challenges—such as expiring tax cuts—there will undoubtedly be discussions about funding reallocations. While cost-cutting measures may be proposed, we believe the economic and job-related benefits of the IRA will make it a strong candidate for continued bipartisan support.
To ensure that Airloom’s voice is heard, we’re proactively engaging with policymakers. We plan to write to our three congressional representatives from Wyoming—two senators and one representative—to share how critical the IRA is to our company, the jobs we’re creating, and the economic impact we’re driving.
2) Completion of Loomcamp Phase II
We hosted ~40 team members, advisors, and industry veterans for an immersive 3 days in Murietta, CA. We took advantage of the three beautiful AirBnBs to cover hundreds of technical slides and have robust discussions about design tradeoffs & Airloom's path forward.
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3) And....We reached another AFWERX Milestone - part of our $1.25M contract with the US Air Force.
We made solid connections at the Wyoming Governors business forum and Verge.
Our development team presented at the Laramie county planning and zoning commission. (Carbon county and Albany County are scheduled for early December).mark-1
Technical Progress
LoomCamp Phase II
The technical team presented System level progress with a deep dive session on each subsystem: System Engineering, Aerodynamics, Loads Analysis, Mechanical Systems, Electrical Systems, Controls, Safety Critical Systems, Simulation, Test Articles, Project Site Selection, and Program Management.
The result was
Levelized Cost of Electricity (LCOE) estimate
Bill of Materials (BOM) estimate
Cost, Schedule, and Risk
Action items and next steps
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Loomcamp Phase II (part 2)
We also spent a solid day in Mountain View at Google X collaborating with our advisors, Siggy, Leo and Kurt. This was a deep dive on systems, aero, and our testing plan.
Product:
Following Phase 2 LoomCamp the team has turned their attention to a baseline design where trade studies are complete and detailed design can commence
Areas of focus over the next 8 weeks:
Aerodynamics (Lift and Drag including test plans)
Dedicated test articles (power take off (PTO) and dynamometer (motor) testing)
Simulation upgrades for controls
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Pilot site:
The team continues to focus on down-selecting the best site for the project requiring leased land sites in favorable Wyoming counties that have wind resources and where Airloom gets to pick the day to test, not waiting on the wind to test.
KB Energy has been selected to provide MET tower services to the three down-selected sites. Equipment has been selected and purchasing is underway in preparation for site installation.
Permit paperwork has been started for three counties to be flexible on final site selections. We have also met with all county permitting teams in an effort to align with the shortest schedule possible and with their expectations.
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TeamWe are leveraging a core group of talented and experienced contractors. We chose this path, rather than hiring a larger full-time engineering team, to move more quickly and conserve cash. Said more plainly, these are ultra-experienced folks that we can’t afford to put on full-time salary, but can afford to pay on short sprints. The down-side is that we build less value inside Airloom. We’ll keep track of this and expand the full-time team once we have additional resources and clearer product definition.
Given this set up, we’ve been thinking a lot about how we organize and communicate. Full-time Airloom folks are already in two locations (Wyoming & California). The contractors mentioned above, and the Advisory Board, are spread out between Denmark and Hawaii. For this reason, we’ve tried to be thoughtful about how we organize ourselves:
We’ve created a group called our “extended team” that includes the technical contractors, comms, and site development consultants. This group is on our Slack platform, receives “all-hands” emails, and is invited to all-hands meetings.
Our Advisory Board, now 15 people, is now also on Slack and is receiving regular updates. We’ve also begun hosting optional monthly meetings for them.
Open roles
We’ve (finally) narrowed in on several qualified site development manager candidates.
Fractional CFO: we also (finally) have several options lined up and will pick one before the end of November.
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Commercial Update
We completed a deep-dive on LCOE and how our future customers will make transaction decisions.
The USAF released a call for TACFI proposals earlier than anticipated unlocking the potential for an additional $2M contract. We will aggressively pursue this opportunity by aligning stakeholders and requirements for a competitive submission no later than March 31, 2025.
We were inspired by this podcast from MCJ (now called Inevitable), which highlights Radia and their effort to create a giant aircraft. ..and while we're taking a very different approach here at Airloom, we very much appreciate their perspective on the market opportunity.
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Challenges
Our schedule has the core of our testing occurring smack dab in the middle of winter (2025), which may not be that much fun in Wyoming. We don't have the budget to push testing out to Spring 2026. We could accept more risk, or do less, or both....or just accept the schedule as it is. The biggest risk to keeping the current schedule, aside from the desire to not be freezing while we're setting things up, is to avoid severe/abnormal winter weather that will delay testing. For now, we're accepting that we'll be cold and keeping the schedule as it is.
Loomcamp Phase II revealed that our current design point carries aero drag that needs to get solved before we embark on the CoDR.
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Upcoming Priorities
Finalize the pilot site locations and install MET towers.
Finalize the test plan for our highest risk items (belt, power take-off (PTO), dyno, and aero).
Concept design review (CoDR).Thank you for your ongoing support. Please don't hesitate to reach out with comments or questions. We'd be delighted to hear from you.
And Happy Thanksgiving!
The next era of wind power
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Airloom.Energy
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AirLoom Energy Inc., 5452 Aerospace Dr, Hwy 130, Laramie, Wyoming 82070
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I really like the kite concept, similar to what Makani Wind Power demonstrated. Google gave up on the tech, even though it was working, but I would like to know if it's possible to run a thin / strong / light cable attached to an actual kite or balloon, back to the ground, and then use the movement of that cable to operate an electric generator, sort of like the recoil starter on a lawn mower engine. The system could be light, low-cost, reasonably unobtrusive relative to conventional vertical and horizontal axis wind turbines, and the materials are easy to come by, requiring very little in the way of advanced manufacturing.
Seriously, though, we could have "surf boards" (parasail wings) attached to a pair of aramid or CNT fiber cables, with another surf board on the other end, and the back-and-forth movement at far greater altitudes than conventional wind turbines can realistically achieve, would prove more or less constant power output, albeit lower density. The fact of the matter is that said system does not require that you clear cut and level the entire site the way they do for conventional wind turbines and photovoltaics (to bring in heavy construction equipment), it doesn't have a huge amount of non-disposable material, the mass of everything is very low, and the heaviest parts of the system are left on the ground, or possibly under the ground, so they're not subject to the same kinds of weather-related damage that both Makani Wind Power's electric aircraft nor conventional wind turbines are subjected to.
I know for a fact that this concept I've described actually works, because it's used in recreational kite flying and some extreme sports. I'm not guessing here. All I want to know is how far this can be scaled-up, and what the power density could look like relative to conventional wind turbines.
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A reply came in from Airloom... I was not expecting to hear from them, but this reply just arrived..,. it confirms mechanical linkage between a belt and generators on the towers. There might be one generator on each tower, which would improve reliability if implemented.
Hi Tom -
Thanks for reaching out! We'll continue to keep the updates coming. The plan is to have electricity generated at fixed locations on the towers with a belt drive.
Have a great week!
Your friends at Airloom EnergyOn Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 8:25AM <tahanson43206> wrote:
Hello!
Thanks for the letter/report from your CEO, and the good news of your
progress toward a demonstration system early next year!Best wishes to everyone associated with Airloom, for the Thanksgiving
Holiday, and for the year ahead.If anyone has the time, it appears Wikipedia does not yet have an entry
for Airloom.My question, which I would have found on Wikipedia, is: Where is
electricity generated in your system?It might be generated where the airfoils are, or it might be generated
at fixed locations along the track.The generator on the airfoil would add mass but eliminate mechanical belts.
The generator at fixed locations would require a belt to move past the
generator. That seems to be what the drawings show.I'll bet there are patents pending! I'll go look!
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