Nutrient Flows in Nature

Void · 2024-11-02 05:20:14

I have been thinking about the topic the last few day more and more, so I guess if I put it here, perhaps I can unload my mind of it.

I suppose nutrient flow is both abiotic and biotic in nature.

Just now I am more thinking of how it works for Earth. On prior occasions I have thought about how it might work on a very alien ice/water world a tidal locked sort. That model may not work as tidal locked likely involves a red dwarf star, and there are concerns that such cannot support productive Photosynthesis.

But ignoring that the model, is simpler than for Earth, and so I would like to represent it here as a "Starter" for the idea of nutrient migrations.

In that fantasy, I imagined a icy/wet world, tidal locked with a open water ocean partially occupying the sunward side. Otherwise floating ice and perhaps a minor amount of land might exist. Some land might be thawed, and likely in the open water sea, and some might be strongly covered with ice cap.

Plants can photosynthesize in below freezing temperatures, so, plant life on top of the ice may be possible near the edges of the sea and on some islands of land in the sea itself. If we imagine fish, then a birdlike animal that can catch fish and can fly might bring nutrients to the plants that may be on top of the ice. The "Birds", might roost in those plants, and might also nest in them to escape predators.

So, then it would be an advantage if the "Plants" would evolve in such a way that "Birds" would prefer to nest or roost in them. This would bring nutrients from the open water, as the birds will lose "Feathers", and sometimes die, and may very well excrete into the vegetation. It would make sense that the "Birds" would evolve to have such habits, as it would encourage the growth of vegetation that they could roost and nest in, to escape predation.

So, there would be a logic to this for both the plants and the animals, and a path for nutrients to move out of the water to the land. This would likely resemble a bog like situation where nutrients are one of the factors that vegetation competes for.

Some plants on Earth actually kill animals for nutrients. But I am becoming aware that for Earth, this may not be the only way, that nutrients come out of rivers and Oceans. Birds have two factors that are interesting. They sometimes eat stones to help digest food, which may release nutrients from rocks, and they may collect nutrients from shoreline areas and even further out in the Oceans. Such birds having a lot of animation, are generally rather helpless on the ground. When possible they may nest in rocky elevations, but also in trees.

It would make sense for reason of flight that they would eliminate waste from their digestive system early and often, if weight is the major concern. But if they coevolve with vegetation, it might make sense if they so some of their droppings at the site of vegetation for vegetation that suits their needs. So, then the plants may develop a nature to encourage the birds to do that.

Plants being "Planted", then rely on Animals which are more "Animated", to do their bidding, I speculate.

What animals have to offer for the plants in general are their droppings which in the case of birds includes feces and urine, and perhaps a bit of finely ground rock powder. But occasionally a dead bird may also be assistive, so, it might be valuable to evolve to arrange for sick birds to be terminated near a certain plant. So then they might evolve to attract birds. So, you might even suppose that in a way plants that we do not associate with carnivorous behaviors may have it in this sense. Generally, though it is probably more profitable to get the bird droppings than a dead bird though.

For Mammals, the Urine and Feces are more or less separate operations.

But again, I suspect that the plants may attract them to do their thing, by some means, and the mammals may have coevolved to fertilize plants that are beneficial to them.

This would be a bit like flowers encoring pollinators.

Also seed dispersal by way of fruit as a reward.

I think I can go back to bed now.

Ending Pending

Animals that eat rocks: https://faunafacts.com/animals/what-eats-rocks/

If we are to terraform worlds ever, I suppose we might want some awareness of this potential Plant/Animal nutrient distribution process.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-02 05:48:52)

tahanson43206 · 2024-11-02 06:04:34

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time.

Best wishes for success with this interesting new topic!

(th)

Void · 2024-11-02 10:57:19

Thankyou (th)!

The Abiotic Nutrient flows for Earth are the water cycle and the winds, perhaps volcano emissions.

As more CO2 is in the atmosphere a more acid situation draws more nutrients into the rivers and then the Oceans.

Animals that draw food from rivers, lakes, and Oceans then can bring nutrients back to the land, and so then I think though repeated predator/prey cycles, get nutrients inland. Of course lightning gives Abiotic Nitrogen, and then some plants with bacteria then give Biotic Nitrogen.

As horrible as flesh and plant eating might seem, the process perhaps makes the lands more fertile for life in general. At least I see it that way at this point. So, plants benefit from having their parts eaten, in many cases.

And it may be that critters at the bottoms of bodies of water that burrow into the bottom sediments may food chain nutrients upwards to the surface, where it then is moved by food chain to the lands interiors.

Winds blow nutrients into the Ocean but a bloom of algae may eventually see some of those nutrients again being elevated to lands interior.

I suspect that plants will make sacrifices, in order to encourage the flow of nutrients to their locations.

Ending Pending

I suppose this is a sort of biological bargaining for favors. But like economics of humans, swindle also occurs, such as when an animal consumes a plant without doing a return favor or when a bog plant kills an animal to consume it's nutrients.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-02 11:06:46)

Void · 2024-11-02 11:45:24

Another method of nutrient uplift are fish that Spaun upstream. It sees like such a sacrifice to Spaun and die, but as animals will eat some of the fish as they go upstream, and then after death the fish will also be eaten, the animals that eat them then fertilize the land of a watershed, and those nutrients then improve the habitat for their young in the rivers.

So, rather a sacrifice, but it helps their kind to exist.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-11-02 19:20:07

Just for fun, I have been thinking about what plants might think if they had communications we could understand.

You would have to take a vote. Obviously plants killed or living in deteriorated conditions would not like what we have done.

But lately the ice caps have been melting back. Growing seasons are likely longer. The fertilizer CO2 has been increased. And we release lots of fertilizers into the environment.

I think the average plant would say that they like this, what has happened.

A different way to look at the fictious deity Gaia that certain elements in our society have dreamed up.

https://spells8.com/lessons/gaia-goddess/

With the advent of precision fermentation, and humanoid robots, I can imagine a future where marginal farmland can become a sort of parkland/forest/grassland situation with things like fallen leaves and dead grass as a harvest. And indeed these lands also should be made so that people could have cabins on them.

The vegetation detritus could be processed.

Methods of process could be found in this post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 58#p227558

So, maybe a semi wilderness, not a howling one, for abandoned traditional farm lands.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-02 19:29:46)

Void · 2024-11-03 09:32:21

OK, I think that I may be seeing how to converge some concepts from some places in Europe with North American practices, for the benefit of populations.

I have already mentioned precision fermentation and Robots. I will mention the car robots and trains.

Those two may start working together. I know that some members here think that the electric car thing is not going to become universally successful, and who am I to disagree. However, if some of the cars are electric self driving, they could serve to connect to train lines. Of course, this would be more natural for Europe and not so natural to North America, but it might build up over time.

In North America, perhaps it would be more that cars would connect to bus lines, perhaps even electric busses.

With precision fermentation, and the methods in this post, farmland might become Pseudo Farms.

Precision Fermentation: https://www.susupport.com/knowledge/fer … rmentation

If you could break down leaves and grass into chemicals that Precision Fermentation could use, then you might be able to semi-wild old farm land and still extract material wealth from it. From the previous post:

The vegetation detritus could be processed.
Methods of process could be found in this post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 58#p227558
So, maybe a semi wilderness, not a howling one, for abandoned traditional farm lands.

So, what I am thinking is that as Robots do more of the labor and precision fermentation provides more of the farmed products, people who have jobs can be allowed to Scandanavian their lives more and more. That is ridiculous Maternity and Paternity leaves, more vacation time, and perhaps entire months of vacation. Perhaps shorter work weeks as well down the line.

So, then this would accommodate more robotic labor while allowing more people to keep jobs, perhaps expending 1/2 of what we do now for effort.

I myself when I might have been mating and having children, worked 56 hour and 64 hour weeks at times. That and being who I am, kept me from having children. Normal people however with less work burden may be able to invest more energy in family life.

We will have to get rid of the Woke Mind Virus. I am tempted to suggest dunking stools, or other treatments for instructors who pervert the children, but of Course thankfully we are not allowed to do Cruel and Unusual Punishments, but I feel that they disserve it. But it is wise to forgive, after taking the power of perversion from their hands.

However, the robots as teachers, can be non-perverts, so perhaps Children could go to school even on vacation in a Stuga: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stuga
Image Quote:

As we will have Starlink, isolation will be much reduced even if a family is in such a dwelling on a Pseudo-Farm.

The fresh air and semi-natural conditions maybe favorable for good mental and other health, I suspect.

The remnant of the DFL which is not including Family Farmers, or Labor anymore will not like it as we will take their middle (Plantation) class away from them. How can they be rich, if their servants are not poor????

Those people should never have been appointed the "Middle Class", as they were always the "Working Class". And they still will be, but the terms of employment will be much better, perhaps again allowing for a good family life.

The American public school system, perhaps necessary before, will be unnecessary. They will not be allowed to Grade and Classify students anymore and to break their spirits.

The school systems objective should always have been to educate the children and of course even adults, not to create cannon fodder for Industrial plant and other odious services.

As I understand it, the Grading/Classing system, created 3 types of people.
1) Highly adapted obedient A & B Students to serve as slaves.
2) C students typically figured out that the teachers and administrators had no right to enslave them. These people often go on to start up businesses.
3) Low performers, who struggle and give up. These make good garbage Servants.

So, that all needs to go away over time.

In the future remedial training being available to all level of performers, and also Neuralink being possible, there should be no use in classifying and grading people, just to make a few "Winners" feel good about being the best of the best.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-03 10:03:15)

Void · 2024-11-03 10:36:54

Other factors could be to have solar panels on these semi-wild lands. Done correctly this could allow the soils to stay more humid than normal, so dryer areas might be done this way. I think that over time solar panels or solar thermal will improve, and so will batteries, and methods to recycle these energy machines.

Also, I am coming to understand that we perhaps should be depositing our non-toxic waste materials into the land rather than dumping them into rivers and seas. I think new technology and robots should allow this to be done in a relatively clean and graceful, non-repulsive way.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-11-11 15:49:13

I stumbled upon this today: https://newatlas.com/biology/plant-anim … own%20meat.
Quote:

Plant-animal hybrid cells make solar-powered tissues, organs or meat
By Michael Irving
October 30, 2024

I am wondering if nature could have taken a different path than the multi-morphic path it took with Photo-organisms, Animals, and Fungi. That is what I am aware of as the three main branches.

Humans are to some extent dimorphic. The probable reason for that is that usually a naturally masculine morphic type will occupy the peak of a bell curve of success in the continuation of its genetics. And parallel but distinctly the feminine will occupy the peak of a bell curve of success in the continuation of its genetics. This is perhaps generally self-reenforcing as pairs or groups with division of capabilities may have mutual survival success. In the case of Female-Male binary pairing, mind functions may be different in the two different bodies with different chemistry. It is likely that the two specialties may not cohabit the same body very well due to things like hormones. And in truth two heads may equal twice the brain matter (Maybe more than twice the mind power). Of course, humans do various temporary group actions as well. Various types of groups.

If anyone may not like that, go ahead and don't like that. But we are in a period of time where Darwinist Eugenics will be on display. It is the question of "If I told you to jump off of a cliff, would you?".

I would not think to do such a dirty deed, but some have done it.

I mention that, as it suggests a symbiosis between the female and male gender. But symbiosis isn't quite the correct word.

Plants, Animals, Fungi have various degrees of symbiosis and to some degree parasitic interactions.

While apparently Fungi and Animals split off somewhere along the line, they each have a relationship with Photo-organisms.

For the Fungi it seems to be most physically vertical. Plant matter drops to the soil, and fungi digest it, but fungi also feed nutrients into plants.

However, photo-organisms do seem to have some ability to live off of dead organic materials.

Both Algae, and I presume Cyanobacteria, and yeast can consume Acetate, which is a dead organic material. And plants can as well, but it only helps them live not so much to grow. I suspect that in a decay world, plants might use decay results in place of photosynthesis to survive.

But the relationship that animals have to relatively stationary plants and fungi, is to move nutrients across land, and perhaps also multidirectional in the seas.

It is conceivable that a sperm whale diving deep and eating a squid might then expel waste at a higher point in the water column, but mostly, I am not aware of a strong power of animals to move nutrients up to the waters with light in them. Our nature more seems to rely on the abiotic process of currents lf water flow to move nutrients around. And many places in the ocean are nutrient poor up where the sun shines, because dead organics tend to flow downwards on the average.

So, if humans or Nature made a Planimal, I think at least in the oceans it might dive down to get nutrients from the cold waters below, and then come up to bask in the sun. This might lead to a CO2 shortage, as the ocean life being planimal would be saturated with other nutrients, and be able to bask on the surface.

So, if evolution exists on other worlds, could they in any case become Planimal dominated? If so then how do they compete for a finite supply of CO2? Such planets may be colder for lack of CO2.

I don't think that there is a huge risk that if we created a Planimal that it would run wild as an invasive species, as it would not be properly adapted to a particular environment. (I hope).

There are some animals that steal or adopt photosynthesis from other organisms that actually have it.

So, is there a "Kill Box" between planted organisms (Plants, and some Algae, Cyanobacteria, Fungi), and Animate organisms (Animals), as there seems to be between the two genders of humans? Or is the lack of Planimal(s), simply that they have not randomly occurred yet?

It would be interesting to figure out if some worlds would encourage Planimal(s) or discourage them.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-11 16:30:18)

Void · 2024-11-12 09:08:51

I had at one time thought of a binary organism, one plant-like and the other animal like, that could join at will to share nutrients. This suggests that it might be possible some day.

https://www.iflscience.com/photosynthes … asts-76655 Quote:

Photosynthesis In Animal Cells Achieved For The First Time Using Implanted Chloroplasts
The researchers are now calling these plant-animal hybrids "planimal" cells.
Benjamin Taub headshot
Benjamin Taub

Freelance Writer
Edited
by
Francesca Benson

So, the photosynthesis part would be large and not particularly mobile, but might be in side of a spaceship. It would be given light. The humanoid part would be mobile like a human, but would periodically hook to the Photo-part, to exchange nutrients.

Humans are built with a rather limited life span, as all nature cares about is methods that prolong the existence of genes. The human body may be too small to load up with sufficient repair mechanism to prolong life. But this binary organism having the bulk and the mobility, might have built into it very powerful repair mechanisms to keep both parts of the binary organism healthy.

While the humanoid part might still have breathing ability, it might also be able to hook to the photo-part to do respiration, in the event of a respiratory illness. While the humanoid part might still have a digestive tract, it might also get its "Fuel" from the photo-part. So, perhaps a re-connectable umbilical cord. I something like that in a Sci-Fi story once.

And I had the above as a sort of plan to spread the paired organisms to worlds with atmospheres but insufficient free Oxygen.

I actually thought it might be possible to drop a set of cells into an ocean on such a world, and they would have multiple genomes, which would be activated in sequence. First developing towards a fish that could bask in the sun, and from that then when large enough gestating a humanoid part and giving birth to it. And then having powers like a Ocean mammal to hold breath for a long time, the humanoid would be able to walk up onto a beach and start building technological things, then eventually a communication device to phone home.

Maybe there is an ET out there like that.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-12 09:19:59)

Void · 2024-11-12 21:05:22

Elon Musk is seemingly interested in dealing with desert, and I presume semi-desert: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

IT HAPPENED! Elon Musk JUST DEVELOPED Desert-Building Technology!
YouTube
Elon Musk Rewind
33.7K views
4 weeks ago

This material makes me more aware of the desert process. To some extent people think it involves overgrazing, or climate change. However, I now am aware that a desert lacks nutrients, which is a negative nutrient flow as far as I am concerned. The way I see it now desert soils begin to resemble regolith on dead planets. I can see that if organic materials are present, and it rains, then flash floods are likely to wash those organic materials downstream towards the oceans or internal salt lakes and seas. So, the more dead the place is the more dead it becomes, in this regard.

Elon is pretty sharp for sure.

And then there is the matter of heat flows from sunshine. In a desert, it is typical that light will reflect from the ground and heat up the sky, where you might hope that clouds could form. So, if you can have vegetation or solar panels that function like vegetation, this may allow for cooler periods in the sky where clouds have a greater chance of forming.
This is where they talk about creating a microclimate. Making solar panels behave like vegetation is something to seek. It would shade the ground and so perhaps keep it cooler. The heat from the solar panels will perhaps air cool, so the heat will be deposited in the lower atmosphere. And again, at night the solar panels will inhibit infrared heat from radiating from the ground into the high sky. Normally hot desert might shine a lot of heat into the sky.

They made sense with desert sand also. Desert sand is unsuitable for concrete, and concrete makes CO2 as well. But they would melt or sinter it into objects, apparently.

The ISS is currently said to be 98% efficient at recycling water. But I understand that Starship hopes to approach 100%. That sort of technology may be interesting in deserts, but of coures they mention drawing water out of the air anyway.

So, probably in the whole good for the human race, and practice for terraforming Mars, I expect.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-12 21:19:42)

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Nutrient Flows in Nature

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