The Moon

Void · 2024-10-29 12:54:14

So, if structures were built at the "Edge of Sunlight", then that would seem to be a good perch to tap entropy from.

My understanding is that some East Asian religions may see a whirlpool as similar to a living being. And of course, there is a flow of matter in that water with a flow of energy within it.

My current understanding of this put into words, is that the universe is expanding, and so producing more space, and so then producing more cold, for particles with and without mass to expand into. I cannot explain the reason for the expansion. I suppose someone might say "Dark Energy" whatever that is.

The "Cells" of a brick honeycomb poised there, may be generally cold or at least cool, as the sun is very near, just above or below the horizon. But the energy of the sun would typically be available most of the time. And Nuclear may well have a place as well.

In making structure from Lunar regolith, I guess you would try to extract some of the more desirable things, and then try to make bricks out of the remainder.

Bricks for the Cell walls may not need mortar, but might be sort of fit together as similar to Lego blocks.
The floor of the cells might be sort of Patio Bricks.

I suppose if you wanted to retain heat in a cell you might erect a ceiling of some sort above it. Maybe just a tent like structure.

Anyway having a source of cold and of energy, and some radiation protection robots might work within these cells, and of course there could be passages between cells.

But the Equator may be a better place to send materials into space from, so some kind of transportation would be wanted, either roads or shuttle ships.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-29 13:04:44)

Void · 2024-10-30 10:43:28

I am not at all satisfied with what I know about Magdrive and Neumann Drive. I guess we can find out what is, and speculate on our educated wishes.

https://www.magdrive.space/#our-tech
Quote:

The Magdrive is a compact, high-power propulsion system for satellites and spacecraft in LEO today, deep space and beyond tomorrow.
Our thruster uses a metal propellent and recharged internal energy to create a high energy plasma.
The Magdrive generates thrust an order of magnitude higher than other similar sized electric propulsion systems.
The full integrated system fits inside a single 2U cubesat with a dry mass of 2.5 kg, including propellant, onboard processor and energy storage, and plasma injector.

So, in general it could be compared to typical electric rockets, Neumann Drive, and I suppose VASIMR. They all require electric power supplies which could be heavy.

While Magdrive appears to provide more acceleration over a time period than electric rockets, it is not assured how efficient it is. I believe that Neumann Drive is rather efficient in comparison.

Here is a somewhat old claim for the Neumann Drive: https://newatlas.com/neumann-ion-drive- … ine/39490/

Apparently, Neumann Drive has been tested in a space environment: https://neumannspace.com/neumann-drive- … -in-space/ No word on success or not.

A bit more information on testing in space: https://spaceanddefense.io/neumann-spac … -in-space/

So, these might be powered by solar or nuclear, but can we consider microwaves? These could come from the surface of the Earth or the Moon, and of course other worlds.

Solar power stations on the Moon could both send power to Earth, and I hope serve to power metal propellant thrust systems in orbit. And of course power stations on Earth may beam power up to space.

But I don't know how heavy a rectenna would be relative to a solar power system or nuclear system.

But unlike for other electric propulsion systems the Moon could supply lots of propellants in the form of conductive metals or metal mixes.

Well someone has sort of pondered the idea in way: https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.A33262

What I am interested in is how much energy density can be provided for the mass of the rectenna on the spacecraft?

What I am thinking of is a bit "BassAkward", but beaming energy to a ship that has conductive/metal propellants may be a new twist.

In orbit of the Moon or Earth, of course the ship could become more distant from the microwave sources, but it is not like a more linear path Earth to Mars.

I have only vague understanding of rectenna energy density of Microwaves tolerated. I know that for safety reasons you would not concentrate it that much to send it to Earth. But could you send a very concentrated amount of power to a rectenna in space?

If power plants existed on the Moon and around the Moon, then electric spacecraft might use that as they do not become so distant from these energy sources.

While these methods might lift mass from Low Lunar Orbit, to Higher Lunar Orbits, it might also involve tethers, and perhaps spin launch concepts.

So, then what materials could be gotten from the Lunar regolith?

Iron seems to be the easiest. (By magnetic separation methods, .5% of regolith, perhaps???)
After that Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen. (By heating and Sublimation/condensation)
Then after that you have to start dealing in some form of Electrolysis.

Matalysis and Blue Alchemy might be suited.

https://metalysis.com/

https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … nar-future

While skyhooks could maybe grab this stuff from a low lunar orbit or the surface, it might also be possible to launch loads out of the Earth/Moon gravity wells, by accelerating a tether with a load to a very high orbit and then releasing the load.

And spinning up a spin-Launch platform might be possible in Lunar orbits using rectenna power and metal propellants.

I am also hopeful that MagDrive and/or Neumann Drive could be used as a matter projector from the surface of the Moon to project matter to some sort of receiver in orbit. But that is rather a reach. I don't know if it is possible.

These methods in combination perhaps could send metal propellants for use to lower Earth orbits as well.

But lifting metal propellants with Starship might be attractive as well, as they will keep well in space and will generally not be an explosive risk.

While it might be desirable to extract Iron and Aluminum for various purposes, from Lunar Regolith, and Oxygen as well, I wonder if the left overs, being a sort of mix of metals, and perhaps some non-conductive materials could you get the mix of conductive materials away from the non-conductive materials, and use the conductive materials as propellants, and make bricks out of the non-conductive remainder.

Once you expend the energy to melt Lunar Regolith, it may be sensible to get the greater quantity of value out of the effort.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-30 11:36:56)

Void · 2024-10-31 10:21:52

I need to do a revision on the notion of accumulating heat with an Alon window.
https://brooksconstructionservices.com/ … e-history/
Image Quote: history-of-domes-pjtxhatk1jktiezx1gkucpmcazw8dche2y0i2prdww.jpg

Alon apparently does not block infrared photons very well.

So, something else is needed.

I almost think maybe a closed dome with resistive heaters, might work to store heat.

And then the method of extraction might be a heat engine where perhaps pipes could be attached to the interior bricks. I guess the working fluid would be Sulfur Dioxide, or maybe Argon, presuming it is available. Or I guess some imported materials.

Then the cold side could be pipes attached to the interior walls of a honeycomb radiator.

It would be good if someone could suggest better notions.

Calliban has warned that brick structures might suffer from thermal fluctuations.

I guess large rocks could be put inside of the hot dome in a pile, this may increase the thermal mass, and so lower fluctuations.

The dark periods are likely to be relatively small at the peaks of "Eternal" light near the poles.

At the equator, then it is 2 weeks more or less.

Ending Pending

So, dependency on stored heat would be less at the poles.

A little more about using metal propellants and electric propulsion around the Moon.

I think it would make sense to have power plants on the surface of the Moon where useful, but also to have some in orbit of the Moon. Some orbits of the Moon are more stable. I think these are perhaps retrograde though in orbit, but I am not sure.

But a "Ring(s)", of power plants on the surface of the Moon and in orbit of the Moon, then could repeat power from each other to places of need, such as an equator night.

An alternative could be to have power plants on the surface of the Moon on the near side, and then power plants in geosynchronous orbit of Earth, where power is relayed. Then Lunar power might be relayed to Earth at times, and alternately support Moon and space bases, and metal propellant spacecraft.

I think the idea of solar powered methods supported by rectenna power might work???

In one case you might have solar panels with a rectenna included if that is possible.

But if you are running solar heat engines, you might build a rectenna into a thin mirror or radiator.

In fact the mirror could be "Mirror", "Radiator", and Rectenna all built into each other.

Supplying needs is the more important factor. Efficiency is much less important in a robot economy where material manipulations largely will come from robots and automation.

I would like to suppose matter projections to Lunar Orbits from the surface of the Moon, using MagDrive, or Neumann Drive or Mass Drivers, Skyhooks, and such, but I would also be willing to fall back onto a more primitive method if necessary.

For that then I would fall back to this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 38#p227538

Quote:

I will attempt to produce a diagram of the landing pad:
Preliminary concept. The idea is that if you are not using a Heat Shield on the ship, you can put a "Woopie Cushion" on it's "Foot".
The "Service" area is surrounded by an inclined cone of sized regolith that can be "Fluffed-Up" using Oxygen gas injection.
S1 & S2 or more, are dropped just prior to landing and impact the fluffed regolith. As they may be spherical or cylindrical, they may have some rolling properties in them and also the "Fluffed" regolith will be a cushion for them. Also, the incline will distribute the impact over a longer period of time.

So, S1 & S2 or more, are intended to drop materials, perhaps organic to the surface of the Moon, to be used for various purposes. That would be the downstroke of this.

But for Up-Mass from the Moon if you could mass produce with robotics some type of solid rockets to attach in place of S1 & S2 or more, those can be kept with the "NOVA" all the way up. And the NOVA would be expected to help the complete to a circular orbit. So, then the solid rocket motor casing and other remaining parts would be a materials resource to pump into the lifting network of metal propulsion metal devices.

The solids casings could be of various materials, if the casings can be made properly functional.

I suggest the base of the propellants in the solids might be Frozen Oxygen, and Aluminum Powder, which I understand could be stable. But as I have mentioned that organic Down-Mass is involved in this concept, then you might add some solid organic materials to the Solid Rocket Devics. Maybe a "Cardboard", liner before adding the paste of LOX and Aluminum powder.

The organic matter would then add in Hydrogen and Carbon and some other things to the burn event. Hydrogen added will improve the performance, I believe.

The source of Organics could be from Earth, then the poles of the Moon and then perhaps from other sources such as Mars, or some special asteroids or Ceres.

So, the big hope is that we could get lots of useful materials from the Moon for both structure and propellants.

I do like the idea of Mirrors that are also radiators, and rectennas.

This then indicates that not only solar but broadcast power could be used to build up a solar system economy.
Nuclear is not forbidden in this.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-31 10:56:03)

Void · 2024-11-01 09:01:08

Borrowing from other cultures is very much in the interests of the space programs of Earth.
Japen, Wood: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC
Quote:

Japan To Launch World's First Wooden Satellite In Groundbreaking Green Space Initiative | WION
YouTube
WION
368 views
1 hour ago

So, the idea of using organics for space machinery is not that weird, I feel.

Neumann Drive has come from Australia.

Metalysis and Magdrive seems to be of Europe.

Several things we now use are from the Soviet Union.

Quite a lot of things I have recently suggested are suggested in this video which is about a year old: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC

Quote:

Lunar Mining, Processing & Refining
YouTube
Isaac Arthur
155.1K views
Jul 6, 2023

Pause.............
I confess, I like this idea better for a start than a device like a Mass Driver: Quote:

I will attempt to produce a diagram of the landing pad:
Preliminary concept. The idea is that if you are not using a Heat Shield on the ship, you can put a "Woopie Cushion" on it's "Foot".
The "Service" area is surrounded by an inclined cone of sized regolith that can be "Fluffed-Up" using Oxygen gas injection.
S1 & S2 or more, are dropped just prior to landing and impact the fluffed regolith. As they may be spherical or cylindrical, they may have some rolling properties in them and also the "Fluffed" regolith will be a cushion for them. Also, the incline will distribute the impact over a longer period of time.

While I have previously mentioned Solein as the content of S1 & S2, and more, also wood products could be included, which might be useful on the Moon.

As for Solid Rockets to attach in place of S1 & S2 and more, I do think that possibly using energy to form the Solid Rockets rather than to run a Mass Driver or Rail Gun, can make more sense. Running the solids does not require much electrical power. Just an ignition method, I suppose.

While Solid Rockets might be stupid things, by attaching them to a device like Stokes Space NOVA would allow the NOVA to steer the assembly, and also to finish the circularization of the orbit.

As for spaceship energy repeaters that may be composed of mirrors, and rectenna, and perhaps a heat engine, I am wondering about a large collection at the Lunar L1 location.

NASA apparently has to thinking on that L1: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/200 … 074295.pdf

Lunar L1 is a bit unstable, but if you have methods of propulsion maybe it can be done. Perhaps a Mega-Station of many mirrors and rectenna's. This would not really be a spaceship. For real spaceships, it may be that a combination of Mirror and Rectenna may be desirable, but maybe instead of a heat engine with heavy radiator you might be able to use high temperature solar cells.

This has been shown on this site many times before: https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html Quote:

In experiments, the new absorbers were shown to operate at a temperature of 800 degrees Celsius and to absorb light of wavelengths ranging from 300 to 1750 nanometers, that is, from ultraviolet (UV) to near-infrared wavelengths.

This could have less inertia than a heat engine and be less complex and prone to failure.

I know that some effort has occurred to include a rectenna in space to a solar panel. I do not know if a rectenna would be compatible with a thin mirror device.

If it is compatible, then it may sometimes use solar energy and sometimes rectenna energy sent from other devices. Maybe both at times. The hope would be to increase the energy budget for the amount of mass by using both methods.

While I think the device would use a reaction mass method like Magdrive or Neumann Drive, I am wondering about other small effects possible for maneuvering or even propulsion.

I know that when an object blocks the solar wind, an electron cloud will form behind it. I am thinking that if you could exploit that and feed electrons into a gun and then emit them from the gun to paint parts of the mirror and rectenna assembly you might produce electrostatic and magnetic effects that may allow maneuvers or even solar wind propulsion.

But I don't have a firm idea of what this might do.

The Solar Wind being of Protons and Electrons, the wind shadow fills with electrons faster than with protons due to the difference in inertia for the two.

I know that Phobos the moon of Mars has such an electron cloud in it's wake.

Could we make parts of the Mirror/Rectenna more sticky to the protons of the solar wind by painting them with excess electrons using an electron gun?

And what would the magnetic effects be?

Anyway, I am thinking that these Mirror/Rectenna craft might be nice for moving mass up and down in the Moon's hill sphere, perhaps from a Lunar L1 Station.

Ending Pending

They might also relay energy by way of microwave to other stations or also recieve energy from other stations, even from the Moon itself or even from the Earth itself.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-01 10:17:40)

Void · 2024-11-01 14:15:53

This video is both discouraging and encouraging about making solar cells on the Moon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NMcil_Oq_o
Quote:

Solar Cell Manufacturing On The Moon
AnthroFuturism
18.5K subscribers

It is discouraging as the efficiency of the cells may be rather low, but there is plenty of space and materials for it.

It is an encouraging article because the author seems to describe rather well how this could be done.

It will also be useful in deciding for or against Nuclear and/or Solar Thermal.

I think I may disagree to some extent that using tracking is not to be useful for the Moon. He says that it has been discarded for Earth because efficiency of cells is getting better.

I would entertain "Rocking-Horse", solar tracking for the Moon. There are not much for seasons on the Moon, so the sun only mostly is variable in one vector??? Gravity being 1/6th and no wind, and no rain/snow. So, motors may be able to last long, if sheltered well.

I will note as well that in using solar thermal likely sun tracking will be wanted.

He says he will make a Solar Thermal article next. I expect that it will be found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRMkYy … feDtrQgcTA

I will offer an attempt at a brick and tube radiator for the Moon.

Here is what I have so far as first efforts:

I am also hoping that this can be helpful in providing radiation protection (Mostly for Robots). At the poles the sunlight would come from the horizon if the sun was up. You could just make a vertical reflective Aluminum foil sheet a bit of a distance away from the wall, to shade it.

I am currently supposing that the working gas is Sulfur Dioxide, or Argon, if those can be gotten from the Moons resources. Maybe CO or CO2. Otherwise, something imported.

Ending Pending

I am presuming that Heliostat concentrating mirrors would be used to provide the hot side in a focus.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-01 14:45:04)

Void · 2024-11-02 11:12:40

This showed up today: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technol … e7d8&ei=12
Quote:

30 MW space solar plant designed to send electricity to Earth by 2030
Story by Bojan Stojkovski • 5h • 3 min read

And I have also seen mention of the use of infrared lasers to project power from orbital satellites as well.

Both concepts may have merit in inhabiting and para terraforming other worlds.

It seems that the infrared method may also send data.

Ending Pending

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ngNewsSerp
Quote:

Modular low Earth orbit satellite system could unlock space-based solar power
Story by Chris Young • 1w • 2 min read

Quote:

Earlier this month, Aetherflux announced it plans to develop and launch a constellation of satellites that will beam solar power back to Earth using infrared lasers.

So, I would think you might try to do something like this for the Moon as well.

If they have energy storage then as they orbited the Moon they could grab energy and then beam it down to a base on the Moon.

This is not to say that Nuclear would not be desired on the Moon, rather it suggests options. For instance a mobile vehicle might gain regular recharges even in the Lunar Night or in a Shadowed Crater.

Ending Pending : )

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-02 11:22:09)

Void · 2024-11-03 08:43:11

Isaac Arthur has a new video about early terraforming and para terraforming, which I think could be applied to the Moon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws6Q4sMfaKY
Quote:

Early Terraforming: The First Steps in Planetary Transformation
Isaac Arthur
795K subscribers

He indicates the problems with changing a world to exactly like Earth, and I think indicates that in the end people may opt for some other result from investment. This again is how I think of the Moon. I would try for a "Better Moon" that gives profit, but we already have an Earth near by.

I have been poking around at many worlds, but now want to fall back more to what I think is the council of Dr. Zubrin.

But with the deviation of doing more with the Moon, while not holding back actions with Mars and the Asteroid belt.

As far as I can tell it is probably possible to lift lots of Lunar mass to orbit by some method, and lots of Lunar mass can facilitate many types of space propulsion. But I think it is hard to not want a lot more of organic matter to use on and around the Moon.

I suggest building solid rocket boosters in the asteroid belt. These would likely be having heavy metal casings, and might have various propellants in them, perhaps close to what we did for the Space Shuttle. These will also need some type of assistive liquid fueled steering propulsion device as a lesser propellant method.

The objective then would be to primary launch to a pass though the Mars Hill Sphere, primarily using the chemical burns to get to that pass of Mars from the asteroid belt.

Then using a Mars gravity assist to move to a path towards Earth.

The organic matter that we would want to use in orbits of Earth/Moon and on the Moon can possibly be sourced from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, but more likely we should want to get it from the asteroid belt. Mars however can come first, as it can be a refilling station for ships bound for the Asteroid Belt.

In the Asteroid Belt we could hope to access Nuclear and Solar Energy. In the case of Solar energy, concentrating mirrors are very likely to be employed for both photovoltaic, and heat engine power plants.

I believe that Dr. Zubrin has indicated in the past that to use nuclear energy, it may be best to cook up propellants and use those to propel a spacecraft rather than to use Nuclear directly. I think this is true, as for instance if we can lay hands on Hydrogen, we would likely want to conserve it for organic matter creation to some extent. I think the same would be true for concentrated solar in the Asteroid Belt.

I have previously suggested 10 year delivery time to deliver organics from the Asteroid Belt to the Earth/Moon as being acceptable while using robots as the crew. This presumes the use of electric propulsions and the use of metal propellants with Magdrive and/or Neumann Drive. But I have realized that every machine created has a maintenance need, and critical systems might breakdown if the travel times are too long.

So, I suggest a modification to the delivery method. Many materials of asteroids could be used to build solid rocket boosters to start the delivery.

But this "Barge" would have another propulsion system using the metals from the solid rocket(s), to propel the ship starting before the pass of Mars, and after the pass of Mars, in order to get into orbit of Earth/Moon.

So, then this could be a travel time that is more satisfactory and reduces the decay time for the equipment of the "Barge".

So then this would deliver the Organic Matter that would be useful to pair with the materials of our Moon.

There have been ideas of accessing the resources of small rubble pile asteroids. This might be done, but I am starting to wonder if it is better to have a small world with just a bit of gravity. The Main Asteroid Belt can provide those, in many flavors. Carbonaceous, Metal, and Stony.

Here is that list, I have shown it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

Generally, they are about 3 AU from the sun and 10 Hygea may be a good case where inclination is lower than many of the others.

Mars/Phobos/Deimos is about 1.5 AU, so maybe a good refilling place to access these asteroids from Earth/Moon.

For the most part these ideas have been know and spoken of by better minds than mine.

So, as I have said the thinking in this post mostly complies with the thinking of Dr. Zubrin as far as I understand with the exception that I want more done with the Moon, but not to allow the Moon to interfere with plans for Mars/Phobos/Deimos and the Asteroid Belt.

Once this core system was set up then access to the rest of the solar system would likely follow over time.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-03 09:18:26)

Void · 2024-11-03 10:27:15

I have had alternate thoughts about Asteroid>Mars/Phobos/Deimos>Earth/Moon.

What if you used the solids and a bit of liquids to go past Jupiter? Could you then do a slingshot gravity assist to an inner planet such as Earth/Moon or Mars/Phobos/Deimos or Venus? You would then still use the solid rocket motor casings for propellant with a Magdrive or Neumann Drive method.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-11-03 21:34:50

I have thought about the last post just a bit more. Supposing we do take possession of one of the big icy asteroids/Dwarf Planet objects at about 3 AU from the sun......

I have suggested a "Barge" of pushed objects, resembling barge assemblies as done in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(boat)
Image Quote:

The engine tug is at the back of the assembly in the manner that a solid rocket could be.
Here on Earth, for a rocket assembly to ascend though the atmosphere, we would not think very long about trying to put a steering assembly on a solid rocket. But I think that in Microgravity it might be a thing you could do.

As before I thought you would use the solid rocket once and then cannibalize its metal shell to be propellant to for a Magdrive or Neumann Drive, I think now that it could also be possible to refill the solid rocket for reuse in flight from the Asteroid belt to the inner system or Jupiter or Saturn. This presumes that you would have the fuel to put into it along with you and that you had the means to manipulate it to refill the solid rocket.

The Dwarf Planet Ceres almost certainly has all the ingredients for this, and also to make Solein as well.
Solein: https://www.solein.com/

But then so also many of the Major Asteroids will have it, and by the way Jupiter's moon Callisto.

But lets consider 10 Hygea. I have had an eye on it now.

From post #207:

Here is that list, I have shown it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea
Quote:

10 Hygiea is a major asteroid located in the main asteroid belt. With a mean diameter of between 425 and 440 km and a mass estimated to be 3% of the total mass of the belt,[11] it is the fourth-largest asteroid in the Solar System by both volume and mass, and is the largest of the C-type asteroids (dark asteroids with a carbonaceous surface) in classifications that use G type for 1 Ceres. It is very close to spherical, apparently because it had re-accreted after the disruptive impact that produced the large Hygiean family of asteroids.

This asteroid blown apart and reaccreted, may have heavy core materials near its surface. (Maybe)

I think it very likely that it will have all the makings for solid rockets and metal fuels, and Solein to import to the inner planets Mercury, Venus, Earth/Luna, Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

This would make all of these places and their above spaces more habitable.

You may be able to use the solid rocket casings more than once, and when you are done you might use the casings as metal propellants.

So, you might use nuclear and solar at 10 Hygea and in its orbits to construct such a barge with cargo.

Then the purpose of the solid rockets is to push the assembly into planetary fly-by's and to also push it into better sunlight. When the sunlight is good enough then the barge will use that to run Magdrive and/or Neumann Drive to consume the rocket motors metal shells, and any other junk metal you brought along.

No need to chase comets around. Plenty of icy Asteroids and then there is Ceres and Callisto.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-03 22:01:15)

Void · 2024-11-04 13:17:55

Well, I have been diddling around here, as the Moon is a challenge as "Being a Harsh Mistress".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_ … h_Mistress

But the flow of thinking needs to migrate to: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 80#p227580 "Index» Terraformation» Interworld Para Terraforming"

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-04 13:22:46)

Void · 2024-11-08 08:33:16

So, this can be a future interest: https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topst … efec&ei=11

Heating up a mass and generating electricity from the flow of heat out of it.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-11-10 14:56:22

I have been reviewing video's today, mostly about the Moon.

Here is one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZN2xXMb28g
Quote:

How To Develop The Moon ALL PARTS
AnthroFuturism
19.3K subscribers

He suggests a Sidways landing Starship. Maybe that is good. He suggests that the engines would be returned to Earth to reuse.

I have another idea which may not be good.

Two Starships landing a third Starship in a Sideways mode. To be sure, if you crashed this you would have a big loss.

But if you launched 3 Lunar Starships and then removed the engines from one, then you could have hardware to connect them into a framework for landing. I am in favor of leaving landing legs on the Moon after Landing Starships.

So, the Lunar Starship with engines removed, would have the landing frame attached to it, and it would be intended to land it sideways. The two remaining Lunar Starships would plug into the landing frame with their skirt sections where the engines will be.

So, quite a danger if one powered ship malfunctions then you might lose it all.

Falcon Heavy has 3 cores so this is not totally stupid. But it took a lot of work for SpaceX to make it function. But function it does.

OK, this could be stupid, but it might be useful:

I suppose you would launch the 3 ships to LEO, and then remove the engines from the horizontal ship.
The ships would be refilled maybe even the horizontal ship.

If you could control the relative power of each of the vertical ships, then it would not spin to pieces. Arriving near the Moon, the propellants from the horizontal ship could be pumped into the two vertical ships.

Then the assembly would be landed.

Probably both vertical ships leave the Moon. But you could leave the whole assembly there if you wanted to.

Anyway that would be a way to land a horizontal ship onto the Moon. If you left the whole thing on the Moon, you would only make radiation protection for the horizontal part by piling protection onto it.

Worth it? Well reading this could be not too much of a loss. Doing it can depend on utility it might offer.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-10 15:21:57)

Void · 2024-11-17 20:25:53

I ran into a video comparing the use of amorphous solar cells and heat engines on the Moon. I was very surprised that the analysis indicated that the solar cells being from 3% to 11% efficient are still a much better deal than heat engines, at least on the Moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oFi6S-4mp8
Quote:

Stirling Engines For Lunar Development Vs Solar Cells
AnthroFuturism
19.6K subscribers

OK, I am getting to the point where I think that for Mars it might be best to consider having orbital power stations, and to beam power down to the planet.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRMkYy … feDtrQgcTA

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-17 20:29:42)

Calliban · Yesterday 17:05:57

Why we should NOT terraform the moon.
https://youtu.be/l6ZmbMksv94?si=pFu3pUBTeoaI5kIL

The gist of the video is that the moon is a place we can strip mine without ever worrying about damage to the natural environment, because it has none. The lack of atmosphere makes exporting raw materials relatively easy. Giving it an atmosphere would ruin its value to humanity. This makes sense to me.

Void · Yesterday 17:53:05

I tend to agree Calliban. I will comment more after I look at the video.

I mostly agree. I have been somewhat thinking along those lines anyway.

I think it might be nice to import some stuff to the Moon for industrial processes. For instance, Hydrocarbons if needed.

I like the idea of treating the regolith with Pyrolysis, where you would add the Hydrocarbons to reduce the regolith materials. You might use up some of the Carbon if you were going to make some types of Steel, but you could import more.

But without using the Hydrocarbons in structure created, you would be able to recycle the Hydrocarbons quite a bit. After reducing regolith you may end up with water and CO2. You could grow Algae extremophiles, in special greenhouses, and then use the Algae to reduce more regolith. Pyrolysis could be assisted by concentrated solar energy.

Josh was concerned about what to do with waste Oxygen, in another place and time.

This may end up creating Oxygen pollution on the Moon. But you could export the Oxygen to shoot out of a Mass Driver that would propel interplanetary spacecraft. So you would not let the atmosphere of Oxygen get very thick. But it could be like a reservoir you need to drain from time to time. It really would not matter if some of it leaked off into space. And I suspect that the solar wind would mix with the Oxygen atmosphere, which would be very thin, and may create water, and Hydrogen and Helium might even get entrained into that thin atmosphere so that you could collect them.

And I like the idea of creating spaceships and space station components on the Moon and by some means lifting them to orbit. I have been trifling with a very low intensity set of notions for that already.

Anyway we have to start with the Moon as it is, and might as well just make it the most useful, not a garden world.

Humans could always change their minds later, if it makes sense to terraform later.

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