The Moon

Calliban · 2024-10-10 10:34:24

Elemental isotope ratio now point against the giant impact model for the origin of the moon.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2e5Qbz00joc

We would expect Thea to have different isotopic ratio and hence for the Earth and Moon to show subtle differences, as the moon woukd have absorbed more of Thea. But we don't see that.

One flaw in this thinking to my mind concerns the possible origin of Thea. It is suspected to have been a coorbital that formed in one of the Earth-Sun Lagrange points. If so, it would have condensed from the same accretion disc as Earth and should have had the same isotopic ratios because it was formed from the same material at the same distance from the sun. If that were true, we wouldn't expect it to result in differences in isotopic ratio between Earth and Luna. We may never know the truth.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-10-10 10:35:33)

Void · 2024-10-10 13:00:34

That is valuable to know Calliban. I think that over time technology may unlock the Moon, no matter what it's source was.

I also think that "Matter Beams" may be possible from the Moon.

If fine magnetic materials could be expelled from the Moon, a catcher could be part magnetic and part centrifugal as to get that material cling.

The original concepts had big bags of regolith, but small particles would have much more surface area to mass per object. It may be necessary to project all the way to L4 or L5, but if the surface of the catcher is of dust, it may be that an impactor for higher speeds could be acomplished.

Also the Mag Drive projecting Iron, or Aluminum, might make a good matter projector.

I have already speculated on the use of a Neumann Drive for the same thing.

Perhaps one of these "Matter Projectors" can be made to work with a Catcher.

In any such case you end up with a whole lot of Mass in an orbital location.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-10-10 17:38:01

Dr. Johnson has posted something valuable, and so I did a post after his post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 89#p227189

While the Moon is not the Asteroid Belt or metal Asteroids, it may help to get to those important asteroids: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 89#p227189

Pause......................

This list offers a way of joining the inner and outer solar system, I think using Metal propellants and nuclear energy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: … s_(Tholen)

I am supposing that in some cases the "Mond" process could be assistive in drilling into some places in these. I am also supposing that nuclear fuels will exist as minority substances and that also Gold and Platinum metals will be available.

These do not seem to be of pure metals, but of enhanced metal content and them seem to be likely to have hydrated minerals and I will guess some Carbon. Nitrogen is not likely, but I think it can be had from Ceres, Venus, and the outer solar system.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-10 17:58:15)

Calliban · 2024-10-11 06:37:22

The Mond (carbonyl) process was abandoned on Earth because of the extreme toxicity of metal carbonyls. This is something that doesn't look like much of a problem in space, so long as the carbonyls don't enter the places containing the air. So this is something that could work. The different metals all form carbonyls with different vapour pressure, making this a good way of seperating the different components of asteroid stainless steel.

As for cutting pieces off a solid stainless steel asteroid. There are mechanical options. But lasers may work better. On Earth, IR CO2 lasers are commonly used for metal cutting. On Earth, the emitter needs to be close to the cutting surface because air attenuates the beam. This can result in the surface of the laser getting fouled up with sputtered metal and oxides. That won't be a problem in space where there is no air to get in our way.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-10-11 06:39:33)

Void · 2024-10-11 09:04:03

Yes valuable options to consider. I recall that there is an Iron mine very close to where I grew up where the Iron was so pure, the guys at work said you could weld on it. So, I also make the leap to suppose that you might use something like a cutting torch on it.

Dr. Johnson seems to me to have been accurate to suggest that these Metal asteroids are sizable as to be worth an effort perhaps. And they generally may have some distribution of types of materials, which I consider as good.

So, perhaps better to process than some other asteroids.

I am getting ready to consider what other tools may be emerging for accessing our Moon. I think it could be Moon and Phobos and Deimos, to then get to these metal asteroids. And if it proves true that they will have nuclear fuels, and also precious metals, and Iron and Nickle, then this give access to the outer solar system as well as the inner.

For those who love math and scholastic Hierarchy, perhaps you want to look away. Perhaps I am a bad artist in an art class. Doomed to poverty. But really, I don't think so, but you are welcome to as long as you understand that I am trying to draw a possible outline of a future reality.

Pause..............Coffee.................

Well, I started to have a look at Blue Origins products. Jarvis and Blue Moon. Then I can to notice that Stoke Spaces upper stage is Hydro-Lox.

The great hope is that the Poles of the Moon and perhaps the Minerals can supply Hydrogen to that process. We are rather sure that the Moon can provide abundant Oxygen.

I think that Blue Moon will use BE7 engines. Jarvis and 2nd stage Stoke will use a method employing multiple nozzles integrated into a heat shield. I would say that that heat shield has little use on the Moon, but the array of nozzles is an interesting method for a lander.

Perhaps Stoke Space can provide a proto-type for a Mini-Starship that is Hydro-Lox. It could land on the Moon and take off if it had the propellants, and it may be able to aerobrake to Mars or Earth from low orbits. You might extend that capability into interplanetary, if you added a one time disposable heat shield to it to get it to Mars.

But my more immediate interest is the Moon. I am not seeking to abandon Metha-Lox, rater to integrate the two systems together.

To support the Stoke 2nd stage in Lunar orbit, I suggest taking Hydrogen out of Methane, and then having a byproduct of Carbon or CO. The Carbon would be very valuable for Iron processing on the Moon. I am supposing a Depot/Station where this separation of Methane would occur. This then would allow refilling fuel to the Stoke Space Lander, both in orbit and if possible from Lunar materials.

Pause.......................

Carbon extracted from Methane in orbit of the Moon could also be used in special thrusters that may use Carbon or CO with Oxygen. Carbon could also be hard dropped to the surface of the Moon to some limited extent. Then it could be used to either process Iron, or make Methane or some other use.

Blue Origin products could be integrated into it including Jarvis and Blue Moon.

Also Aluminum as a fuel might be integrated somehow. A suggestion is LOX and Aluminum, but you might mix in a pinch of a Tar that would release Carbon and Hydrogen.

This may give us the platform to access Mars/Phobos/Deimos and then the Metal Asteroids.

That is not to say that Mars Direct would not have already started settlement of Mars before that.

Metal Asteroids may allow access a large part of the solar system.

I think I will stop for a time now.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-11 09:54:18)

Void · 2024-10-11 12:18:24

So, to continue with this a bit, I anticipate some sort of Depot in association with the Moon, which at first might bring all propellants from Earth, but which over time would start getting Oxygen from the Moon, and then later if it makes sense for the quantity of water on the Moon perhaps Hydrogen as well. Argon might be obtainable from the Moon also.

But it might also get metals as propellants. Iron seems the most likely, but perhaps Aluminum as well over time. Aluminum could work in many thrust types. Mag Drive, Neumann Drive, and also to burn in LOX.

While these might be stored as mentioned, they also could be in Oxidized States as well for storage and use as radiation protection. CO2, H20, and Oxidized Iron types perhaps.

The possibility of moving some of these substances to Earth Orbits may exist as well.

My understanding is that it should be sensible to get Oxygen for LEO from the Moon rather than from Earth at some point. And that is the more major mass of propellant for ships like Starship.

Having this refilling capability could help in the expansion to Mars/Phobos/Deimos and the Asteroids.

Ending Pending

If possible, it may be that things like electromechanically launch devices and skyhooks might be brought into place.

For instance, if a Skyhook could grab a bucket of Iron Oxide to Orbit, then that could supply Iron and Oxygen as propellants for spacecraft.

Ending Pending

If metal electric drives or Argon drives are effective and efficient then the skyhooks could be given orbital energy that way.

But I am also thinking that it may be possible to make a superconducting magnetic sail, and to give it a asymmetrical character with a massive iron "Keeper" on one side. It might be possible to spin that so that at times the solar wind would push it harder than other times in an orbit of the Moon. That one just occured to me. It needs more thinking I am guessing.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-11 12:29:04)

Void · 2024-10-12 07:03:31

Mixing things together is said by some to be the lower level of creativity. Still, I think it can have useful results.

I have been thinking more about the use of a "Transit Ship", with other space hardware, for addressing the Moon.

I would describe my notion of a "Transit Ship" could resemble a Starship made to work in the Earths atmosphere and in space as well. But it would be made special for transiting between an orbit of the Moon and elliptical refilling orbits of Earth. It would likely be capable of landing on the Earth for special maintenance, it might do several missions to orbit the Moon between landings on Earth. I would be used to support the transit of other hardware.

I have in mind the use of capsules and smaller spacecraft.

Orion, Dragon Cargo, Dragon Crew, Stoke Space 2nd Stage, and others.

Capsules with their own heat shield might ride to the orbit of the Moon, inside of the Transit Ship, outside of the transit ship or on their own. If they then transit back to Earth they may again ride inside of the Transit Ship or Outside of it. They would separate from the Transit Ship and then air brake to a landing on Earth, while the Transit Ship would do several skips on the Earth's atmosphere to regain a elliptical refill orbit of Earth.

But I really have an eyeball on Stoke Spaces 2nd Stage. I have gotten some warning from Dr. Johnson, that their heat shield method would not work on a passage from the Moon. The heat stress would be too much. However, it has occurred to me that if that spacecraft were sheltered inside of a Transit Starship while it would make several skip events, it might be able to deal with the Elliptical Refilling Orbit. At that point then it could land on the Earth on it's own, and I suppose it also could be landed inside of a Starship capable of hosting such an amount of Down-Mass.

But what is even more interesting is that I think that if a Transit Spacecraft were to host it at the Moon, then it might repeatedly land on the Moon and ascend back to the Transit Spacecraft. The could be useful.

I suppose the Stoke 2nd Stage might even be upgraded to host humans, but also a different version could be for Cargo only. If maintenance were not an issue, then this ship might do several trips up and down, before it might be brought somewhere to a facility to maintain it or scrap it.

If it is a discovered and confirmed ground truth that the Moon has Hydrogen locked into compounds like water ice, then this Stoke 2nd Stage could be refilled on the Moon.

But also a Transit Starship could host refills in orbit for it as well.

This process would not be done to the exclusion of Lunar Starship, but in parallel to it. Whatever uses Lunar Starship could have would be employed, such as to deliver large masses of supplies such as hardware and life support materials not on the Moon.

Additional to all of this it would probably make sense to have Depots that would have an electric drive of some sort to bring propellants to the orbit of the Moon, efficiently.

The size of Orion, Dragon, and Stoke 2nd Stage may be suitable to be hosted in the "Frunk" of a Transit Starship, I think.

Stoke Space "NOVA": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoke_Space_Nova
Quote:

Second stage
Height 13.1 m (43 ft)
Diameter 4.2 m (14 ft)
Propellant mass 18,000 kg (40,000 lb)
Powered by 1 x S2E
Maximum thrust 111 kN (25,000 lbf)
Specific impulse 430 s (4.2 km/s) [2]
Propellant LH2 / LOX

And if this works for the Moon, then it may be possible that a revision of NOVA might be suitable for Mars. If I understand, it could not airbrake itself to Mars from the interplanetary path, but if it were brought to orbit of Mars by some means, it might be able to access Mars, Phobos, and Deimos.

The Moon would be a good test ground to discover such a potential for it.

Ending Pending

Methods to get NOVA to Mars could be inside of a Starship, by Electric Rocket, and perhaps by using Ballistic Capture.
Perhaps combinations of the above.

While Methane is a preferred fuel for Mars, it might not be that hard to work with Hydrogen for the NOVA.

My understanding is that for stress evaluation, air braking from LEO is harder than air braking on Mars from a solar orbit. Then air braking from a low Mars orbit is easier than either of those. (This considers the energy that has to be dissipated). If someone desires to correct me, please do.

Ending Pending

A mission to Mars at some point could involve sending a Starship with a NOVA, to a Ballistic Capture, and then using the NOVA to scout the Surface of Mars and perhaps Phobos and Deimos. Perhaps this could be a path to a "Sample Return" method.

I suppose it could be automated, but I expect that that would be rather hard. Perhaps some humans could be on Hand.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-12 07:40:34)

Void · 2024-10-12 08:18:47

Continuing with speculation. I do not have proper measurements of capabilities.

But I think it is worth asking if you could do a Parcel Pass or a Moon Stop access to the Moons surface.

Parcel Pass would be to host the NOVA to the Moon orbit, and eject the NOVA, to land on the Moon and possibly get some samples and then ascend, in Parcel Pass, the Transit Ship would not stop in orbit, but another transit ship might come by and pick up the NOVA and/or it's samples.

We might want to involve Blue Origin, who are trying to find a method to inhibit Hydrogen and Oxygen boil off.
We also might want to involve Tesla, for it's robots, and possible Moon Buggies.

Moon Stop would have the Transit Ship stop to orbit the Moon while the NOVA and Robots would do their stuff on the Moons surface.

I confess, I do not have the measurements for propellants for these notions, but I do have an "Educated Wish".
Depots that can be transferred to Lunar Orbit may be desired.

Of course, at some point these methods might begin to involve human crew. In that case involving a suitable Orion, and perhaps upgraded Dragon may be desired for a quick passage for returning crew to the surface of the Earth.

And if you want a base on the Moon then you may want to involve Lunar Starship and also Blue Moon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-12 08:23:33)

Void · 2024-10-13 18:18:19

I want to have another look at this in relation to Starships of a special type which could be.
https://newatlas.com/space/super-magdri … etal-fuel/
Quote:

Super Magdrive rocket thrusters run on heavy metal
By Joe Salas
October 05, 2024

I think that the philosophy for Vulcan was not too wrong, but I think we may have already entered a new age.

It appears that it is likely that (Not me, they), will at least be able to put a full-fledged aerodynamic Starship in LEO, and get it back to Earth, probably capable of reuse.

And so, if another Starship stayed in orbit to be repurposed, then the full-fledged starship could bring parts of the repurposed ship back down for reuse.

What I am thinking of is sending "Naked" Starships up, and cutting them up for various uses, some of the materials then becoming propellants for Magdrives.

Lacking a proper number, I am going to suppose that these ships will have a dry mass of at least 85 tons.

I am going to speculate if the mass could be cut into three or four parts, not necessarily equal in weight.

1) The Cabin or Cargo section repurposed to make space stations, and large interplanetary transports.
2) Engines and Avionics and a few other things to be returned to the Earth's surface for reuse.
3) Propellant tanks cut up to make propellant for Magdrive.
4) Other. (Things that do not fit into categories 1, 2 or 3).

This particular Starship would not have to have a thinner gage of metal, as its metal would be of use. It would not have a heat shield or flaps and motors or support for those.

This would provide space station components and perhaps parts for interplanetary or Earth<>Moon ships.
And of course, propellants, if it is possible to use Magdrive with stainless steel. Neumann drive is also a possibility.
These also might power robotic devices to retrieve large chunks of space junk to also become salvage.

Electric power sources would be needed of course. Solar or nuclear, I presume.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-13 18:49:10)

Void · 2024-10-20 08:40:38

A package arrived in my mind this morning as I was waking up.

Referring bac to post #174:

Resorting again back to a previous post #162: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 63#p227063
Quote:
I think that this is rather good, it goes far beyond any understanding I previously had and also has a lot of things that I would still need to absorb: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … tMy%20book:
Quote:
Metals From Moon Dust - Lunar Metallurgy
YouTube
AnthroFuturism
14 views
2 hours ago

I am playing the video now as it contains some specs I want. A temperature and vacuum level, where Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen will sublimate out of heated Lunar Regolith.

I was thinking about an Optimus Robot(s) on the Moon. Of course robots would be modified to environments. The primary environments would be having various levels of "Dirty/Clean".

Outside without paving brick pathways would be the dirtiest.

I would think that we would want clean volumes built where robots could work to make higher level products.

A tiny amount of beneficiation of magnetic iron 0.5% of the regolith mass. That is not to be held in contempt.

But we are going to want some of the Iron from Mineralized Iron.

Electrolysis is mentioned as a possibility. It takes a lot of energy. The regolith can be preheated using solar energy, prior to electrolysis.

I am looking at making Iron Clad Bricks, and using powdered iron as mortar to join them where Vacuum Welding and inductive heating can create a structure of bricks, such as a Quonset hut(s).

Also Thermite reactions could be used to join the Iron Mortar.

I make it sound easy, I am sure the recipes to achieve this are going to need discovery.

Bricks having join methods like Lego's.

This could be good in Microgravity as well, working with Phobos, Deimos, and asteroids.

If you have a magnetic field, then you could Shepard the materials to stick around, if they get dislodged or are lost to the void.

Iron clad bricks would be useless on Earth, and probably Mars, as for the problems of Oxidation.

A Iron Clad Bricks Quonset Hut would have an electrical grounding plain on the inside an outside of the structure.

Probably once built you would want thermal stability for the structure. So, then insulation on the outside.

I think 1100 degrees C (For Iron), is mentioned as how to use sublimation to extract some Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen.

We might look at about 26.00 in the play time of the video.

See about 29.50 in the video play time. Vacuum Pyrolysis.

So, the Iron needs to condense at about 500 degrees C.

To capture the Oxygen he requested notions. I think possibly Hydrogen or Carbon could bond with the Oxygen, to produce water or CO2. Those then can be condensed at reasonable cold temperatures. Then these could be split with electrolysis, or using some sort of Plasma splitting process.

The Quonset huts could be insulated by piling regolith on top of them. I do not think the robots will need extremely strong radiation protection. I would say that periodically thick regolith could be piled on so that during a solar storm the robots or humans could seek shelter there.

As for the brains of the Robots, I think they might be put into carts with some good radiation shielding. The robot and the cart might be associated, by proximity. A cart on wheels, and then bipedal or other robots.

I think that the ratio or robots to humans on the Moon could be 1/10,000, with only small numbers of humans.

There are other metal processes, but I do think that perhaps a Metal mortar may work on the Moon, as you may employ vacuum welding, inductive heating and other processes. Aluminum would be harder, but might not be as subject to Oxidation if you were going to pressurize the interior.

Usually though I do not see the interior of these buildings being pressurized.

Any other thoughts? Of course this is not a completed plan. Much more will be wanted.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-20 09:25:27)

Void · 2024-10-21 09:09:31

So, the questions I am currently concerned with are what "Life Support" "Working Robots" may find useful on the Moon and other worlds.

So far on Mars and the Moon, it is my observation that temperatures and lack of energy are what kills robots the most.

What I have suggested for primary form of structures could be stone arch with metal joins, (Like a Stained-Glass Window), and perhaps vertical tower structures. These each might give working robots some protection.

However inside of such buildings, there may be the question of cooling the robots in a vacuum. So, Optimus Robots and their like are presumed to have cooling fans. I would not like to pressurize robot space to allow that type of cooling.

I have some weird notions for cooling such as contact with a cold floor or wall, but those are not well developed.

Mobility may be a problem. I have considered the idea of a bipedal robot paired with a Rickshaw cart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickshaw
Image Quote:

This would allow the biped robot to have tools and supplies in the cart. Also, if the cart were like a segway, the biped could ride in the two wheeled cart. The robot could stabilize itself during a task by being attached to the cart.
And the cart and robot could walk/roll together between task stations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segway
Image Quote:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … Sweden.jpg

So, the rolling mechanism would perhaps be able to transform from Segway to Rickshaw as would be appropriate.

The Segway form would be less troublesome in tight spaces.

The cart could carry most of the robots' brains, as radiation shielding could be included. Also, the cart being part of the robot's mobility, it would collect some of the heat that the robot would have to reject, because the robot would work less.

So, this is sort of a Moon Optimus with its own Moon Tesla.

As the robots main brains would have some radiation protection the buildings that the robots would work in do not have to have vast amounts of regolith piled on them. However, Radiation Storm Shelters might be provided for when the Sun becomes a threat due to a serious storm.

Humans could fit into this environment as to also have carts and of course spacesuits. But usually they would participate remotely and would have a great deal of remote support from people on Earth.

I am also thinking of the possibility of cooling with solid objects that the robot could pick up and replace periodically.

Just some partial baked ideas.

Hopefully they can become fully baked.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-21 09:32:07)

Void · 2024-10-21 19:15:26

So, no surprise that I have had further thoughts about a helper/partner robot for a Optimus Moon Robot.

By now, I see it as being it's own robot. Instead of two handles for the cart mode, it would have two arms with hands, that could grip the Optimus about the waist.

So, for such a mode the two together would resemble a Centaur.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=centaur+mini … et39dxg8_e

Image Quote: 61xzL969dNL._AC_SX679_.jpg

Except that the front legs would be much more humanoid, and the back legs would likely be segway wheels.

But unlike expectations for a Centaur, this assembly should be able to travel backwards just fine, as Optimus has eyes in the back of it's head, and the helper robot would have multiple eyes as well.

The helper robot in addition to being a tool box, and assistant, could also be a stepladder to climb on.

The helpers Arms could be used like kickstands when that were useful.

The helper robot could carry more batteries, and also where radiation is a big problem shelter for the brains for the robots.

Where bipedal is quite useful, this assistant would give the two together other capabilities that could be useful.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-21 19:26:51)

Void · 2024-10-22 12:33:41

There will be more to say about Moon robots, but upon looking at the arch type structures I described to shelter them, it occurred that if a concept of Isaac Arthur were paired with them then we could have some very interesting results.

The idea from Isaac Arthur has to do with channeling light tough portals into a shelter. In his version so far, a pressure reattaining window is intended, and a door that could snap shut if the window leaks.

As I see it now, on the Moon you could keep the portals, maybe a window, and likely a door that can shut.

You conduct light from a mirror system through the portals, into the chamber to store heat.

Such a chamber would not be so much for robots as they may well require cooling, but it's own thing.

So, a Quonset form "Blister" on the surface of the Moon to collect heat though the Lunar Day.

It would be made of formed brick-blocks.

This would perhaps have a mortar of a metal, perhaps Iron, that could be melted using inductive heating.

And then pile regolith on top of it as much as it will bear, both as a thermal heat sink and as thermal insulation.

Two fluids are candidates for heat engines, on the Moon Sulfur Dioxide, and Argon.

So, perhaps a method with merit for the Moon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-22 12:44:21)

Void · 2024-10-22 18:59:35

Stone Enclosures to hold heat, are interesting. It might be good to use direct sunlight, but with resistance heaters the interiors could be heated almost to the melting point of the shell, as most of the strength is of a compressive nature.

Extracting the heat could be with a heat engine, but I think in some cases it might be possible to use solar cells. Not sure they could adapt to that, but something to ponder.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-22 19:00:02)

Calliban · 2024-10-23 02:48:08

Void, that is an interesting idea. Keep in mind that stone is brittle, has relatively low thermal conductivity and likely to crack if subject to thermal gradients. Those gradients create shearing stresses within the material due to differential expansion. This is why sensible heat storage schemes tend to rely on crushed materials in which the lumps are no bigger than hand sized.

I don't think keeping warm will be that much of a problem on the moon. Inhabited structures will be covered in at least 2m of regolith for cosmic ray shielding. Fine regolith has a better insulation value than rockwool under vacuum conditions. Keeping cool may turn out to be a problem. Without heat rejection systems, habitats may end up cooking due to internal heat accumulation.

Void · 2024-10-23 08:46:22

Yes, I think I fear those weaknesses as well.

My original thinking about Quonset Huts made of stone was to create habitats for Robots.

These would be unpressurized spaces, and I am hoping that by having open doors/windows, reasonable cooling could be accomplished in that case. It has to be radiative, I guess.

I have considered Iron as a Mortar, as there can be vacuum welding, little corrosion without water or an atmosphere, and you could use inductive heating to help it set between the stones.

Iron Powder or crumpled foil between the stones and then an inductive heating.

For these robot enclosures, we would avoid large temperature swings.

Suppose a stone Quonset hut at the equator, with open ends both north and south. So, venting heat by radiation to North and South.

The stone structure would have some insulation over it to prevent solar heating. As a method of cooling the robots might be able to have contact with stone at times to dissipate heat. I am still working on this.

Also at the poles you could have a circular wall structure with an open top. So, heat drains out of the skylight.

These structures would be intended as life support for robots primarily as to control dirt, and temperatures, They may also have radiation storm shelters so that if the sun misbehaves the robots can take shelter.

Various other methods to harden the robots to radiation might be employed.

If you were near the poles you could still do this but at times you would want a sort of curtain at each end alternately to avoid in put of solar heat.

Now as for a hot version, I think if the Iron mortar does not get hotter than say 800 degrees C, it might be OK.

If in the hot version you have a "Lava Pool" in the floor of this perhaps this could be accommodated. Somehow I want to process rock to sublimate Iron, Nickle and Oxygen out. Then to take the remainder and form cast bricks perhaps?

In the hot case, also we would not be cycling temperature much, if we could help it. But we might run a heat engine off of the lava pool.

Just sketchy for now.

I will refer to Roman Aqueducts to say that if you don't cycle the temperatures too much there could be hopes of maintaining stone arch structures on the Moon and perhaps Iron Mortar will help.

I really would appreciate what you think about these notions I am promoting Calliban.

Images of Roman Aqueducts: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ro … C3&first=1

I would make the claim that in the Moon's 1/6 gravity, stone arches may be more favored than on Earth.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-23 09:01:36)

Void · 2024-10-24 20:03:04

Boring Company technology probably is not suitable for the Moon due to lack of water.

But I think that horizontal tubes and vertical tubes, and diagonals could be made from the regolith. And this could provide a protective hosting of a robot based economy that could contribute materials to facilitate human expansion into the solar system.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-10-25 12:08:28

I have been thinking some more about previous posts of mine here recently.

I don't know just how bad cooling problems would be for robots anyway. After all slow robots are recently functional on the surface of the Moon.

I still like the idea of binary robots. That one that is humanoid and relatively gracile and one that is less humanoid and more robust.

Actually Star Wars sort of had that with C-3PO and R2-D2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droid_(Star_Wars)
Image Quote: R2-D2_%26_C-3PO_%28Star_Wars%29.jpg

C-3PO could be a humanoid robot developed from existing types today.

R2-D2 could be replaced by a simple Rickshaw Chassis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickshaw
Image Quote:

It could be upgraded from that to include modification to a segway function. In that case then the humanoid could ride inside of the Segway Rickshaw.

Pause............

The rails that a human grasps on the rickshaw can become two robot arms with a fair amount of power. Even able to lift the humanoid robot up. Probably it would grasp the humanoid with handholds near the waist and hip area.

The Robust Cart-Robot would carry most of the brains and batteries and would have aluminum heat exchangers that also serve as shielding from radiation for the computers.

Both robots would need to be made more rugged to work on the surface of the Moon.

But generally I am thinking of them working in modified environments. I have talked about Quonset huts, maid of bricks made of tailings from processed Lunar regolith. They might have something like Iron in the joins between the bricks. This would offer some radiation protection. Not enough for a human, but some protection.

You could heap up as much regolith on them as the weight they could bear, and so upgrade the radiation protection.

My hope is that these structures can shed heat from within by having open doors in directions not sunward.

The structures are not to be pressurized as a general practice.

Pause.............

I suppose we could call the structures "Tubes". "Tubes" could also be vertical like a Moon "Skylight": https://www.sciencealert.com/undergroun … astronauts
Image Quote:
My understanding is that temperatures inside these skylights is moderated from the normal surface temperatures and is less extreme in swings and is sort of a average.

Instead of a pit, an open top tower could be sintered from Lunar Regolith or built of bricks from Tailings.
There would be some radiation protection inside and also some moderation of temperature, and a bit of protection from impactors as well.

If you covered the structure with shiny metal foil then the interior temperatures would be lower, which may be helpful to some degree if robots have to shed heat while working.

I have described horizontal structures and vertical structures, but of course there could be some that are diagonal, if built on a slope.

I want to pause at this point to think more. The hope I have is that we could arrange a robot economy on the Moon that could provide materials assistive to human space efforts.

Many of these robots could be telerobotically operated from Earth by computers and/or humans.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-25 12:50:12)

Void · 2024-10-25 13:42:59

Continuing with the just previous post we could consider a dome with a hole in the top:
https://brooksconstructionservices.com/ … e-history/
Image Quote: history-of-domes-pjtxhatk1jktiezx1gkucpmcazw8dche2y0i2prdww.jpg

So, you could have a "Thermal Valve" in that hole. Perhaps capable of mostly blocking the entrance of light or facilitating it. Also, throttling the exit of infrared photons from the dome out to the universe.

Here again I expect the dome to be unpressurized.

Such a dome may provide a fair amount of life support for robots and industrial processes. Of course, it would even be somewhat protective of humans in space suit protection.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-25 13:47:50)

Void · 2024-10-26 10:01:42

Of course the hope is that the Moon could export valuable things. Things that would benefit people.

Well there has been an interest in solar power from the Moon for some time: https://www.discovermagazine.com/enviro … n-the-moon
Perhaps Japan having some interest.

I have hopes that Metals as for structures and as for propellants, and also Oxygen could be exported by various possible means.

The more such possibilities, the more a robot/human presence on the Moon could be justified.

Pause.............

There is something to be said for building things in a gravitational field. Humans may get the chance to build stuff in microgravity or asteroid or small moon gravity, but the Moon has a 1/6 gravity field that may be enough for us to translate many practices from Earth to it. And of course, the Moon is a very large ball of raw materials. Maybe not in the proportions we might prefer, but what it has, it has a lot of in general.

Blue Alchemy proposes to make solar panels on the Moon, but many people prefer heat engine concepts.
https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … nar-future
Quote:

Since 2021, Blue Origin has been making solar cells and transmission wire from regolith simulants.

There is no reason to turn ones nose up at that.

But the more options the better, I feel.

Pause................

One interesting option could be to make a dome with a hole in its top and fill that dome with a ALON window.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride
Quote:

Melting point ~2150 °C[1]

Quote:

Aluminium oxynitride (marketed under the name ALON by Surmet Corporation[3]) is a transparent ceramic composed of aluminium, oxygen and nitrogen. Aluminium oxynitride is optically transparent (≥ 80%) in the near-ultraviolet, visible, and mid-wave-infrared regions of the electromagnetic spectrum. It is four times as hard as fused silica glass, 85% as hard as sapphire, and nearly 115% as hard as magnesium aluminate spinel. It can be fabricated into transparent windows, plates, domes, rods, tubes, and other forms using conventional ceramic powder processing techniques.[citation needed]

Using heliostats above the window and heliostats distributed around the dome, it may be possible to heat the interior of the dome to a rather high temperature. However there may be a problem if materials condense on the window from the inside.

It may be possible to have a pool of molten regolith inside the dome.
Melting Point of Lunar Regolith:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/199 … y%20molten.
Quote:

1373 to 1653 K
Since the regolith is a mixture of compounds it melts over a range of temperatures. This melting temperature range is 1373 to 1653 K (Langseth et al., 1973). Above 1653 K the regolith is completely molten.
Author: Anthony J. Colozza
Publish Year: 1991
Analysis of Lunar Regolith Thermal Energy Storage
ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19920005262/downloads/19920005262.pdf
ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19920005262/downloads/19920005262.pdf

Quote:

(1099.85 to 1379.85)

Of course we have to figure out how to melt a puddle of regolith in the bottom of the dome without melting the dome.

If that is solved, then we may be able to process Lunar regolith, and also have a thermal storage device.

Pause...............

I beleive that the temperature to operate Metalysis is a bit lower, as it works with molten salts: https://metalysis.com/our-technology/ Quote:

Overview
Metalysis has a commercially proven electrolytic technology which can reduce metal oxides and ores into pure metals and alloys

Credit to:

The discovery
Metalysis’ story began in 1997 at the Materials Science and Metallurgy Department, University of Cambridge, UK.

I think that with the possible exception of Magnetite, it might be more typical to export metals than Oxides from the Moon.

Major exports possibly microwave power to Earth, Metals, and Oxygen (Possibly in Magnetite).

So, things have changed since the 70's. Robots working on the Moon could do the bulk of the manipulations of materials, and solar power could be an export by way of microwaves.

Various matter projection methods and receiver methods may become practical.

If photovoltaic is not liked, it may be possible to work with heat engines. Sulfur Dioxide and Argon are possible working gasses, and maybe water.

If the Moon were exporting so much, then it might afford imports. I suggest Solein from Earth: https://www.solein.com/

Then later from other places, perhaps Mars/Phobos/Deimos, maybe Ceres and others.

From Earth, the product would generally not be explosive unless mixed as a powder into air or Oxygen.
It may be possible to drop it onto the Moons cold surfaces from a bit of elevation to save on rocket propellants.

Such a material might be added to a solid rocket formula of LOX and Aluminum powder. And of course it would have all the organics you might want.

True the poles of the Moon may have these things, but still the Moon may want more.

I am going to presume that domes made of bricks, may have inscriptions put onto them as a sort of time capsule thing.

Thats a lot.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-26 11:35:29)

Void · 2024-10-26 14:15:16

(th) had some interesting comments here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 15#p227515

One thing I have noticed is how easily a concept can become dogma.

-In the 70's Mass Drivers seemed the way to go, ejecting materials from the Moon to make space habitats. But where the water and Nitrogen was to come from???

-The dogma established post Apollo, (I think to stifle the Space efforts), was a "Bone Dry" Moon. I took decades to search and find evidence that the Moon has some water, (We think). That eventually evolved into "We need that water for rocket fuel". And a parallel notion of getting water from asteroids. The picture is still one of a few humans doing some research on the Moon at a very slow rate for a very high cost.

Churning the old 60's and 70's technology and perhaps Space Shuttle Tech, allowed the maximization of extraction of tax dollars into old space. It was more profitable to keep changing the agenda than to actually achieve anything.

I will make an exception for the ISS and space probes. The ISS has actually yielded things that are likely to bear fruit now such as life support methods, and potential microgravity industries.

But we seemed to have reached a critical mass at this time. Things like other types of propulsions, and New Space Entities. So, I think it is important to rethink what the reality is now.

I agree that data centers in the shadowed craters could be interesting, or even just at the terminator of such a crater.
But the hardware is likely to have to come from Earth, at least for a while. The "Life Support" for the equipment may come in large part from Lunar raw materials though.

There are still open questions such as the effects of reduced gravity on humans, and how can that be compensated for?

It is possible that humans may be able to live long term on the Moon, or they will have to be in space stations near the Moon, or they may be on Earth and interact remotely.

But whatever could be done with the Moon, it could be done on a large scale if desired. That is, if something proves worth doing on the Moon it may be worth "Going Big".

Japan has seemed to work in the direction of artificial gravity on the Moon: https://phys.org/news/2022-07-artificia … giant.html

Medicines might be able to mitigate some of the effects of low gravity eventually, it seems possible.

So, there may be a version of the future where at least robots are strongly active on the Moon, and possibly even large numbers of humans.

I think we should keep an open mind and see what becomes possible or not.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-26 14:38:53)

Void · 2024-10-27 09:54:39

The Angry Astronaut produced this: (There are a few swear words in the first part): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2FsvNJ9Nws
Quote:

NASA Moon Base will fail without this! ANGRY IAC INTERVIEW!
The Angry Astronaut
148K subscribers

A point is made that if you want to extract materials from the Moon for use in orbit, then the equator is better than the poles. And of course there could be special mineral deposits that are not so close to the poles.

So, I think probably it could be good to have both, a base near organics at a high latitude, and a base near a useful mineral deposit near the equator.

OK, I am going to put a "New Kid of an idea" into the nursery. Please don't abort it because it has not grown up yet. Creatures that do not nurture the young may not have a future.

So, I am going to "Grab" hardware from several space companies, and also introduce a "Fluffy Inclined Landing Pad"

Things I want:
1) Transit Starship that can be refilled in a lower elliptical Earth orbit.
2) A modified version of Stoke Space Upper Stage (NOVA?)
3) Carbon tanks the Rocket Lab could make to put Solein into.

Solein: https://interestingengineering.com/inno … n-thin-air
Quote:

Innovation
Finland makes world’s ‘most sustainable’ protein from air and electricity
Solein is made of dried microbes, created by cultivating and dehydrating hydrogen-oxidizing bacteria that are nourished by components from the air.
Updated: May 28, 2024 07:41 AM EST

I will attempt to produce a diagram of the landing pad:

Preliminary concept. The idea is that if you are not using a Heat Shield on the ship, you can put a "Woopie Cushion" on it's "Foot".

The "Service" area is surrounded by an inclined cone of sized regolith that can be "Fluffed-Up" using Oxygen gas injection.

S1 & S2 or more, are dropped just prior to landing and impact the fluffed regolith. As they may be spherical or cylindrical, they may have some rolling properties in them and also the "Fluffed" regolith will be a cushion for them. Also, the incline will distribute the impact over a longer period of time.

I am thinking that S1 &S2 or more might be thin Carbon tanks filled with Solein.

NOVA is a Hydo Lox system but could perhaps be converted to something else, perhaps Methalox, or CO and O2.

In delivering thin Carbon tanks of Solein, we would be delivering organics that are wanted for various reasons. Rocket Fuel being one potential desire. The Moon itself could supply Oxygen, but Solein is expected to contain Nitrogen, Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen at least.

The Solein could serve as a food and of course to make other things.

A "Transit Starship" might carry a Nova or two, and lots of Solein containers to a far side Moon orbit. The Nova would capture that assembly to Lunar orbit while the Transit Starship might pass back to Earth to do several Aerobraking skips off of the Earth's atmosphere to get back into a refilling orbit.

The Nova Would begin brining Solein canisters down, and on the Moon it could be refilled both with Oxygen and fuel manufactured from Solein.

Refilling in Lunar orbits might also be possible.

"P" is the standard payload section, which may be absent on landing. But I would hope that a cargo container with things desired in orbit could be loaded into the "P" section, perhaps a container of Magnetite.

For Launch we might hope to put solid rockets into the positions of S1 & S2 and maybe more. These might be composed of a shell with much strength, and also LOX, and Aluminum, and perhaps a bit of Solein. Hopefully they will not tend to explode.

Unlike for Earth launches, the solids would be retained if possible as a convertible resource to support orbital activities, to make structure or the metals can be propellants for Magdrive, or Neumann drives.

I would like some form of response if anyone feels comfortable with it.

Expectations are that their will be ships that will crash. Then they are scrap metal.

It probably makes sense to run them until they crash. But some prudent maintenance would be sensible.

Ending Pending

Down the road it might make sense to manufacture Solein near the Lunar Poles and somehow transport it to the near equator base.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-27 10:56:21)

Void · 2024-10-28 12:26:40

So, it is understood, I have not become a complete Lunie. I still think that it can be best to measure Starship by the ability to jump from Earth to Mars, and back again.

But, I think we should not short change the Moon. It may have more potential than has been considered.

Solein at the moment is my universal solution to organics for the Moon. At first from the Earth and then perhaps from the Moon itself.

But I also see a potential for a loop where it may come from another planet, such as Mars perhaps.

If the stuff were manufactured on Mars, and then lifted to orbit, it could go by a slow boat with electric propulsion back to the Earth/Moon orbits. The propellants I am wanting to use for this could come from Phobos and Deimos. I am thinking of metals primarily but also Oxygen and Dust Could be used for propellants.

Here again we may not care about haste in delivery. In that case power supply to payload ratios can be more efficient rather than faster.

On the other hand if a robot manufacturing system could be set up on the Moon, then created machinery might be delivered from the Earth/Moon to Mars as payment for Solein to the Moon and orbits of the Earth.

So, then robots could be of two primary types, ones that work with regolith and deliver it in some form to a set of factory floors, and ones that work in a partly improved environment of a factory floor. And they could be making metal propellants as well.

I think that others have said that on the Moon cooling may be harder than heating.

So, I am thinking that open top domes, such as in this post, might benefit from an umbrella sort of thing as a "Valve":
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 99#p227499
https://brooksconstructionservices.com/ … e-history/
Image Quote: history-of-domes-pjtxhatk1jktiezx1gkucpmcazw8dche2y0i2prdww.jpg

So, if you covered the outside of the dome with insulation and then on top of that a reflective Aluminum Foil cover, and then had a sort of Umbrella on a robot arm of some sort, then you could hope to regulate temperatures to hope to avoid overheating. So, then to create a "Factory Floor" for robots.

The "Umbrella" could of course host solar panels.

And in other domes you might host hot materials to complement this sort of things, and perhaps assist in industrial processing of Lunar materials.

Ending Pending

(th) requested a bit of this a day ago or so:

A Umbrella Shut situation could also be imposed if there was detected a significant meteor shower.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-28 20:26:14)

Void · 2024-10-28 20:29:11

In the kind of situations which might cause the human race to lose the space option, I might consider:
-Asteroid
-Serious Big Warfare
-Zombie Consumption

Zombie Consumption would be where the human race pooped itself by using up the high grade resources before bridging the gap to the other worlds of the solar system. Zombies actually have very good language skills. In fact many of them are so skillful as to be able to focus social stimulation onto their victims. This can be in the form of organizing violence or forcing servitude.

The Non-Zombie people are more able to manipulate objects, and do not have to feed off of the efforts of other object manipulators. Although a network of creative manipulators can create material wealth. It is quite possible for verbal people to also be assistive. That is a good world.

But it is too easy for the Zombies to rob the "Seed Corn", and destroy the hopes of tomorrow.

So, I do very much support a main line Starship that could jump to Mars, be refilled and jump back to Earth.

But beyond that their may be many alternate variants that could also serve good purposes to achieve material well being for at least the Non-Zombies. And perhaps also for the repentant Zombies.

So, I don't think it is necessary to have only 1 million people on Mars in a city. That is a nice goal. But a distribution of people in the solar system on many worlds, may also help to preserve the human heritage.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-28 20:39:02)

Void · 2024-10-29 08:47:50

I am thinking about the "Eternal Light" points near the Moons poles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_of_eternal_light
Quote:

A peak of eternal light (PEL) is a hypothetical point on the surface of an astronomical body that is always in sunlight. Such a peak must have high latitude, high elevation, and be on a body with very small axial tilt. The existence of such peaks was first postulated by Beer and Mädler in 1837. The pair said about the lunar polar mountains: "...many of these peaks have (with the exception of eclipses caused by the Earth) eternal sunshine".[1] These polar peaks were later mentioned by Camille Flammarion in 1879, who speculated that there may exist pics de lumière éternelle at the poles of the Moon.[2] PELs would be advantageous for space exploration and colonization due to the ability of an electrical device located there to receive solar power regardless of the time of day or day of the year, and the relatively stable temperature range.
Detailed lunar topography collected by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) suggests that no points on the Moon receive perpetual light during both the winter and summer. However, there are points on crater rims which have very extended periods of sunlight.[3][4]

For an interesting word picture, I imagine a honeycomb of brick walls on the rim of a crater or mountain.

Honeycomb Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ho … RE&first=1

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0
Image Quote:

That would be the view from above. Thick walls, and relatively clean cell chambers, perhaps cool or cold for robots and industrial processes.

Then of course solar energy and probably nuclear within easy reach.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-29 09:05:34)

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