The Moon

Void · 2024-10-01 11:54:21

To go further with the last post, I would think that if it is intended that 100 people could go to Mars in a Starship, then such a Starship Moon Orbiter, might be able to host 4 people in life support long term.

In the event of an Orion Capsule failure, then the persons might be able to stay with the Starship as it would make several passes of the Earth's atmosphere. The Van Allen Belts though could present a challenge to their health, but they might be able to endure it with a storm shelter. If the Starship could attain an elliptical refilling orbit, then they might be extracted from the ship by some means.

Under the circumstances, it becomes apparent to me that it might be desirable to have thrusters from the Dragon System on the Starship as well, as these could be used to do a boost back from the Moon and could also be used in multiple passes of the Earth's atmosphere.

Such a method might allow for not only refilling the Starship in an Elliptical orbit, but perhaps doing minor repairs such as the heat shield. So, then a Starship might make figure 8's from Earth orbit to Moon orbit several times before needing to land on the Earth or before being converted to space station materials.

The Dragon Landers could be tested with humanoid Robots before actually validating it for human landings and assents.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-01 12:01:20)

Void · 2024-10-02 06:56:52

I am not sure how this idea explains the similarity of materials of the Earth and Moon, but it shows that maybe we want to do more science on the Moon to find out: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1rAjYB Quote:

Moon Was Stolen, Claim Astronomers Challenging Lunar Origin Story
Story by Jess Thomson • 1h • 3 min read

Continuing with the previous post's speculations, I wonder about the use of electric rocket propulsion to move things from Earth orbit to Moon orbit.

If Moon landers based on Dragon could be used, then electric propulsion could be assistive for resupply to Lunar orbit.

Argon is possibly available on the Moon as well.

So, I slowly begin to understand a little about the Draco Thrusters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Dr … 20designed

So, a Starship in orbit of the Moon might carry the propellants for the Draco Thrusters, or maybe a depot could be moved to Lunar orbit with such propellants in it, by electric propulsion.

I believe that Dr. Johnson has indicated that use on the Moon of Hypergloics is not without some potential of in reach.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-02 07:06:44)

Void · 2024-10-02 07:23:51

I may be off base, and not understand some important things. That is possible.

However, I think as I said before that it would make sense to me to use a variation of Dragon to move up and down surface<>Orbit for the Moon.

I feel that a mutual travel method could make sense where a Aerobrake Starship could travel together with an Orion system.

Here is some important information about the Orion and radiation: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 3e2e&ei=46
Quote:

How scientists are keeping the Orion spacecraft safe from radiation
Story by Georgina Torbet • 1w • 2 min read

My feeling is that if the Orion traveled with a Starship Low Elliptical Refill Orbit<> Moon Orbit, it could have more protection from radiation, and more options if an Appollo 13 type situation were to occur. So, increased safety.

If on the return path, Moon Orbit > Starship Low Elliptical Refill Orbit the Orion malfunctions, it may be possible to host the crew with assistance from the Starship. But in normal operation then the Orion would split off from the Starship and plunge into the Earth's atmosphere with its crew. The Starship might do multiple skips of the Earth's atmosphere to regain its position in a Starship Low Elliptical Refill Orbit, and if deemed fit for it the Starship could be refueled and have minor refurbishments for yet another launch to Moon Orbit.

If the Dragon Technology could be a people mover Moon Surface <> Moon Orbit, then Lunar Starship could be a one-way device to bring bulk materials to the Moons surface for base building and also perhaps massive science expeditions to special locations on the Moon, using robotics.

This then allows Orion of "Old Space" to still be used so as to collect a "Rent" on it for the cost of it's production.

And it does not prohibit the use of SLS to lift special payloads.

However, it is also possible that Dragon Capsules might also have some use perhaps to transit robots. Getting robots back from the Moon to Earth would allow analysis of how the harsh Moon environment affected them.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-02 07:39:43)

Void · 2024-10-02 08:54:43

Super Mag Drive?

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … rm%20space Quote:

Scientists Test Revolutionary Space Thruster: Space Metals as a Fuel to Go Where No One Has Gone
YouTube
NASASpaceNews
5 views
14 hours ago

So far it says what is does, but not how. I am guessing it is going to consume lots of electric power.

How does super magdrive work?
https://www.magdrive.space/#:~:text=The … %20systems.
Quote:

The Magdrive is a compact, high-power propulsion system for satellites and spacecraft in LEO today, deep space and beyond tomorrow. Our thruster uses a metal propellent and recharged internal energy to create a high energy plasma. The Magdrive generates thrust an order of magnitude higher than other similar sized electric propulsion systems.

I remain somewhat confused as to how good this is or can be.

I would wonder if a solar power platform could beam microwaves to a ship that would transit LEO<>Moon, to give it dense power.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-02 09:03:28)

Void · 2024-10-03 11:33:44

I have been thinking of various ways to use a variant method for Starship and the Moon.

In general, these may involve a skipping return to an elliptical refill orbit of Earth, but also an Earth landing may be possible.

Typically, these notions would resemble Apollo, where the Starship would be the "Command" part, and there would be a "Moon Lander" in association with it. There would be hopes of reusing each of these more than once.

1) Apollo-Like. Very much like Apollo, however the Starship would be the Service Module, and perhaps an Orion would be the return Capsule, and then you might have a Moon Lander, which for the moment I think of as Dragon Based. This would involve a "Moon-Stop" in orbit of the Moon.

Then maybe there could be Moon-Pass methods. You never stop the Starship but have to pass something between the Moon centered operations and the Starship while perhaps on the far side of the Moon in an orbit. For now, I would say to not use these for transfering crew unless safety may necessitate it.

2) Moon-Pass with Lander or Orion from Earth and back to Earth. These could be internal or external. You could put an item such as an Orion into the Frunk of a Starship if you had a Frunk (Front-Trunk). Or you could simply attach an Orion to the outside of the Starship for passage to the Moon, if no Frunk. As the Starship was to do a Moon-Pass back to Earth, then the Orion or some other vehicle would have to break itself to a Moon Orbit or Moon landing. At the same time the Starship would disgorge or release such a ship, it might also take a different one to bring to the refilling orbit of Earth, or even to land. However, if it has a capsule it picked up the capsule may detach upon proximity of Earth to do its own air-brake landing on Earth.

3) Moon-Pass, Parcel-Pass would be similar, but a Moon Ship would have to bring a parcel to add to the Starship, and perhaps take one from the Starship. This then requires the Moon-Vehicle to both match speeds with the Starship as it passes around the Moon and exchange parcels, and then to use rockets to then keep itself in orbit of the Moon. A bit like a football pass in American Football.

Tricky stuff, I am sure, but maybe possible with new technology and AI.

But Propellant conserving.

We also have the possibility that electric rockets could be used to put propellants in orbit of the Moon for all of this as what I presume is a cost cutting method(s).

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-03 11:54:14)

Void · 2024-10-03 18:55:14

From the last post,

3) Moon-Pass, Parcel-Pass would be similar, but a Moon Ship would have to bring a parcel to add to the Starship, and perhaps take one from the Starship. This then requires the Moon-Vehicle to both match speeds with the Starship as it passes around the Moon and exchange parcels, and then to use rockets to then keep itself in orbit of the Moon. A bit like a football pass in American Football.
Tricky stuff, I am sure, but maybe possible with new technology and AI.
But Propellant conserving.

Payloads from the Moon could involve metals.

But Methane could come from Earth, and Oxygen from the Moon.

As these are to be in parcels that might be passed, in order to limit boil off, I suggest looking into freezing the Methane and the Oxygen, as they are not be be used for propallants in flight. Therefore the heating would instead of causing boiling, rather transition from solid to liquid of these two.

Also Argon could be a payload in a similar manner,

Also Hypergloic fuel.

So, a parcel pass could have a Oxygen Cube from the Moon passed to the Starship, and then the tug would grab a Methane Cube to bring to a Moon orbiting Depot.

So, this might be the minimal consumption of propellants, where a Methane Cube is loaded into the Frunk of the Starship while the Starship was being refilled in an elliptical refill orbit, and then the engines fire to send the starship to the Moon.

As the Starship would proceed to transit the Moon, a tug ship would come to give an Oxygen cube to the Starship and to take the Methane Cube from the Starship. Of course, the tug has to do a lot of engine firing to get synchronous to the motion of the Starship and then to depart with the Methane Cube and stay in orbit of the Moon.

When the Starship intercepted the Earth, it may do several passes to get back to the refilling orbit of the Earth, doing aerobraking in stages.
The Oxygen is then moved into the propellant depot or to fill the Starship as it would melt.

The other substances such as metals, and Argon, and Hypergolic Fuel, would be handled in a similar way.

So, the total fill for the Starship to do this action may be much less than for a Lunar Starship to carry itself to the Moon and then move people down to the Moon and then back up again.

I recommend that normally for transfer of humans the Starship should fire engines to lock into a Lunar orbit and the fire engines when ready to go back to Earth.

But for Parcel Pass, maybe it will be efficient to conserve propellants and also to fire the engines less often.

Ending Pending

-Post #154 speaks of a Mag Drive that can use Iron, Aluminum, and Copper as propellants.
-The Neuman Drive can use many elements on the periodic table as propellants.
-Electric Rockets could possibly use Argon. It is possible that Argon could be had at the Moon. It is certainly available from Mars.

So, these electric drives could fit into the Mix, giving more efficiency.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-03 19:11:46)

Void · 2024-10-04 13:40:49

So, then it might be desirable to have platforms related to refilling Starships in an elliptical orbit. And platforms associated with the Moon.

And I think that if substances like Methane and Argon could be put into deep freeze tanks, then those parcels could travel with the starship from the Earth filling orbit to an intercept associated with the Moon. If the tanks can endure it, then the Methane or Argon could be cooled well below their freezing points.

Methane: -295°F (-181.666667 C) (To go to the Moon)

Argon: -189.2°C (-308.56 F) (To go to the Earth refill orbit or from the refill orbit to the Moon)

Oxygen: (−218.79 °C, −361.82 °F) (To go to the Earth refill orbit)

*If anyone has corrections for what I am saying, I likely will welcome it.

The tanks could be carried inside of a Frunk of a Starship, (Front Trunk), in order to help shade them from the heat of sunlight. With a vacuum, the conduction of heat may be rather low.

But also, for transfer from Moon to Earth orbit where an aero burn(s) is needed, they would need to be in the Frunk as well.

The tanks may need some sort of low powered propulsion on them, as they would be ejected from the Frunk at times to transfer between the Starship and the Lunar Tug. The Starship and the Lunar Tug should have enough power to be able to overtake them appropriately, however.

The Lunar Tug will have to accelerate its Parcel to approximately the path and speed of the passing Starship. Then it will have to catch a parcel that the Starship has ejected from its Frunk. Then it has to quickly do a burn to keep in orbit of the Moon and to seek out a propellant Depot that would be in association with the Moon.

Other parcels could be of metals that could be used as fuels, or Oxides that could be processed for fuel and Oxygen, or Hypergolic Fuel.

If there is something wrong with my thinking as to the possibility to make this work, please give me corrections.

Ending Pending

I also think that although you might want to use the Methane as Methane, you might also have the option to make water with it from the Hydrogen and Lunar Oxygen, and you could make Carbon Monoxide as well or Carbon or of course CO2, all of which would have their uses.

This might facilitate other means of propulsion. From the Moon itself LOX and Aluminum is said to make a low-grade method of propulsion.
But Alice might be useful. I wonder if you could make a "Dirty Alice". That is mix some filler into the Ice and Aluminum. CO2 Could be a filler or Carbon, or Lunar Dust. I certainly do not know if any such methods would be of value, but maybe they would.

And of course there is some hope of getting water, Carbon, and Argon from the Moon anyway, so that has to be fitted into the broader thinking.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-04 14:17:17)

Void · 2024-10-04 19:25:33

If parcel pass were to work as I seem to think can be true, then the mass that can come from the Moon is very large, as Oxygen and Metals are available.

A parcel would be a tank that could ideally hold a solid as a metal or an ice, or perhaps a powder of something.

So, if Methane were the major thing to pass to the Moon, I might hope that the same tanks could be used to send Moon materials such as Oxygen to an elliptical refilling orbit for a Starship type.

So, it could be that the excess Methane sent to the Moon would not all be used as fuel, some would yield water and some Carbon and some CO, and Some CO2, and then even Hydrogen as might be desired.

This presumes that with purging you might use the same parcel tank to hold Oxygen or Methane, one at a time after the tank would be properly purged.

But I admit uncertainty on the attainability of such a method.

I think I will leave it at that for now.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-10-05 07:53:28

So, I think that a partial specialization of types of Starships could be very helpful.

1) Tanker Starship would not be likely to go any higher in orbit than a Lunar Starship refilling orbit which would be elliptical.
2) Transit Starship would transit between Earth and Moon and would as often as was practical, not land on Earth but do multi-pass Air Braking into a Lunar Starship refilling orbit. It would not usually land on the Moon either, and perhaps could not land on the Moon.
3) Lunar Starship could land heavy cargo on the Moon, and could possibly fly back up to Lunar orbit, so it could carry people. You could have a clip-on heat shield for Lunar Starship, which would allow air braking, and when landing on the Moon, the heat shield would be disconnected.
A clip-on heat shield could be manufactured from Moon materials and the heat shield could be left in the Lunar refill orbit as materials to make products from.

The Transit Starship #2 is interesting to be as it could have a "Frunk" with Jaws, which could carry various "Parcels". So, if a parcel-pass could work then might present a good way to exchange fairly large number of materials between the Moon and the Lunar Refill orbits around Earth.

But I see that the setup could be used in another way. If you changed Parcel-Pass to Moon-Stop in orbit, more propellants are required, however I can see how a version of this could be interesting to consider.

Generally, for Starship, they do not want a "Tank within Tank" construction. This is to keep the dry mass down. But if you did make a very large Capsule that filled the Frunk, and used a Moon-Stop orbit method, then you could leave the capsule in orbit of the Moon for a period of time.

And building on that, if that very large Capsule had its own heat shield and small engines, I can see an advantage in air braking.

The large Capsule would not be intended for landing on Earth but for air-braking to a Elliptical refill orbit around Earth.

So, the "Large Capsule" could be put into the Frunk of the Transit Starship. You would go to the Moon likely using a Moon-Stop procedure.
When done at the Moon, you would carry the "Large Capsule" back to Earth but separate it out before doing air-Braking. To do that is to increase the total surface area for Air braking.

The Starship could make multiple passes at Earth's atmosphere to reacquire the refilling orbit, but the Large Capsule would do a one pass air brake to reacquire the refill orbit. The Large Capsule would not be intended to be built to land on the Earth at all. So that would simplify it and keep its dry mass down.

I will try to do a crude view of what the "Large Capsule" could be like. I suppose it is best to start with existing diagrams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_St … %20compose Image Quote: Image Quote:

Diagram of a Block 1 Starship's internal structure. Not shown in this diagram are the flaps: the aft flaps are placed at the bottom (or left in this orientation), and the forward flaps are placed at the top (here, right) portion of the spaceship. From the FAA environmental reassessment.

OK, not high art, but a bit of a diagram giving some notion of what I am thinking of:
The idea here is to let the Transit Starship do multiple skip air braking, while the Large Capsule does one pass. So, then it might carry crew and passengers, only passing the Van Allan Belts once and more quickly allowing transfer of crew and passengers to other craft such as Dream Chaser and perhaps others.

While the Lunar Starship Lander is a nice machine, I think it would be nice if SpaceX could devise a smaller lander based on its Dragon and Falcon 9 technology. Perhaps the new device to deorbit the ISS would be a nice thing to translate to a lander.

With all this then I think there would be a good set of hardware for addressing the Moon, and perhaps even supporting asteroid and Mars missions.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-05 08:42:40)

Void · 2024-10-05 14:20:48

I have been thinking about the above and thought I might just put a simple version here.

Here I am thinking that if you put some fine Lunar dust in the barrel, then the rocket could skid on it. I have recalled claims in the past that it should be possible to Ski on the dust of the Moon.

A typical crater may have suitable inclines on its rims.

However, in a more complicated way, you also could have a thruster of some kind to place a small gas plume under the body of the rocket.

Here I am thinking or wishing that such rockets could be mass produced from a mix of LOX ice and very fine Aluminum powder. Of course, the device needs a method to circularize its orbit as well.

The vent "A" may be of an actively controlled variation to allow the buildup of pressure behind the rocket to not get too extreme. More is good, but you would not want to blow the barrel apart.

The exit is of course "B".

If LOX and Aluminum are not good enough then perhaps other things might be tried, but the Moon could produce a lot of LOX and Aluminum powder.

If Moon dust is to be the lubricant, then it likely has to be redistributed for each launch.

It would be nice if the rocket body itself were a combination of Metals and also Oxides. The reason I want the Oxides is that then when the materials of the rocket were processed you could get Oxygen from it not just Metals.

Anyway, a fun thought to consider if it could work.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-05 14:29:44)

Void · 2024-10-06 07:55:17

Continuing with the materials of the last post:

I have no idea if this can prove out to be a useful method. But of course, if you don't investigate then any potential for success cannot be mad to emerge.

Rockets that might use LOX and very fine Aluminum powder have previously, used LOX as a liquid and the Aluminum mixed in as a paste.
Here I am thinking of freezing that paste into what is essentially a solid rocket booster. I am sure that there will be pitfalls to that such a potential explosion, or other mishap potential.

The burn rate could be dampened by putting dust into the paste of an Oxide that will not burn. On the other hand, I think that Sulfur could burn, but I don't know if it could be added safely. And then you could add ice of Sulfur Dioxide or Water Ice.

The little I think I know about solid rocket boosters mostly comes from Dr. Johnsons comments over time. I know that smoke particles help, and it is probably good to have a bit of Hydrogen in the mix somehow.

As for Carbon, that would be desirable but so far, the Moon does not seem to have much of it accessible. Maybe some CO2 in the shaded craters.

I suppose that some type of catapult could be added to this thing, perhaps resembling Naval devices of America.

But that would be tricky business.

Anyway, I made an attempt, perhaps more can be thought of later, or some better means could be created.

If Methane could be imported from Earth or Asteroids to Lunar Orbit, I would think that the thing to do with it would be to react it with Lunar Oxygen, and produce Water, Carbon, CO, CO2, which each having other values still could be included into the LOX & Aluminum paste, provided it does not make it into a fast explosion.

On Earth Solid Rockets are only used as launch assistance devices, I think. But in this case the rocket motor would be the export product.

Perhaps a metal shell with an inner shell inside of the of Oxides of some Lunar materials. Then inside of that a paste that is to freeze inside of the tube. But it is possible that freezing is not necessary if the paste is fairly stiff when reasonably cold.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/satellite6.htm
Quote:

Approximately 1.02 km/s
The minimum speed to orbit the Moon is approximately 1.02 km/s or 0.633 miles/s4. To maintain an orbit that is 22,223 miles (35,786 kilometers) above Earth, a satellite must orbit at a speed of about 7,000 mph (11,300 kph)3.

Of course you would need a nozzle for the rockets.

And you would need a mass production with robots. Not an easy thing to set up, I am sure.

But maybe this whole idea could be replaced with something better.

For Instance, I think that it might be possible to use Metha Lox where the Methane comes from Earth, and the Oxygen from the Moon.

Thats enough.

Ending Pending

Biomass would probably be helpful for some type of launch method. Here is an article about making biomass from Asteroids: https://phys.org/news/2024-10-possibili … omass.html
Quote:

October 4, 2024 report
Editors' notes
Investigating the possibility of using asteroid material to grow edible biomass for astronauts
by Bob Yirka , Phys.org

As I have said before, I think Carbon containing and biomass materials may be suitable to hard land on the Moon, reducing the effort needed to import them. Things like Carbon itself, or perhaps if you want to imagine it Hay Bales, dropped in the Lunar night. Of course, there is a maximum tolerance for speed where the impact would render the substances not usable, so you do have to expend fuel for this sort of effort.

But it has to be remembered that SpaceX has already demonstrated significant lowering of cost, and eventually Starship and other reusable vehicles will lower costs even lower.

And then if robot labor for some tasks drops from $30.00 per hour to say $0.10 per hour, the components for launch equipment and perhaps the cost of propellants could be dropped significantly.

If you could Aerobrake Frozen Oxygen from the Moon, to a refilling orbit, that also may lower the costs of importing Methane to the orbits of the Moon. Hay for instance might be grown in space habitats orbiting the Moon, using primarily Lunar Oxygen and Methane imported.

Then the Hay woven into some kind of shock absorbing form dropped to a cold place on the Moon such as Lunar Night or a Shadowed Crater. The terminal velocity of the dropped item would be determined by the speed and altitude of the device dropping the Hay.
While it seems that the acceleration would be infinite, in fact acceleration would be cut short by impacting the surface of the Moon. So the desire would be to limit acceleration to the amount that would not vaporize the Hay, or scatter it to much.

I know that for some this notion seems stupid, and maybe it is. But then consider that it may be possible to incorporate hay into solid rocket fuel methods I have suggested. And then to hope that you could suppress explosions and premature ignitions. I am not qualified to say this method will be valid. It might be possible to make it valid or not. I don't know.

However the Hay would add Oxygen that could react with Aluminum Powder, and Hydrogen which would be both a fuel and a gas that would expand very well. And then the Carbon in the Hay would be a fuel as well, and perhaps if smoke particles are involved with the exhaust, this may also help propulsion.

That is very interesting. Could you make a modified Alice Rocket with water ice, Aluminum powder and an organic substance like Hay?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28 … ant%20that
Quote:

Aluminum-Ice Rocket Propellant, or ALICE, is a rocket propellant that consists of nano-aluminum powder and water. After mixing, the material is frozen to keep it stable.

So that could be very interesting for places like Mars, or even better Ceres, and some other Asteroids with ice and cold Moons with ice and Carbon.

The outer belt asteroids may well have those ingredients, and of course it seems likely that the Trojans and Greeks would have the needed materials.

It might be rather possible to keep a "Hay-Alice" stable for prolonged periods after manufacture.

My guess is that it might work ok for boosting stuff to the inner solar system. But of course you would need to grow the Hay, or maybe Hemp

(No I don't smoke anything at all so find another fault if you want to pull me down).

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-06 08:59:54)

Void · 2024-10-06 13:58:13

I think that this is rather good, it goes far beyond any understanding I previously had and also has a lot of things that I would still need to absorb: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … tMy%20book:
Quote:

Metals From Moon Dust - Lunar Metallurgy
YouTube
AnthroFuturism
14 views
2 hours ago

I have been having trouble with my computers lately, so I think I will leave it at that.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-06 14:13:01)

Void · 2024-10-06 16:22:35

The claims of the previous post's materials, leave me to wonder about Mars.

Mostly I am thinking of the use of Vacuum. A vacuum chamber in Hellas might be 100 times as easy as on Earth, (Maybe).
A vacuum chamber on top of Olympus Mons would be much easier than that.

On top of Olympus Mons, the spectrum of light should have a bit more energy than in Hellas. Solar thermal for processing materials may be pretty good there.

Both locations have CO2 in quantity, and so then could have CO and Carbon and perhaps Organics for processing metals.

Landing on Mars from Earth of course would be easier where the atmosphere had pooled more such as Hellas, and perhaps other low locations.

But launching from Olympus Mons might be easier. Maybe CO and Oxygen would be sufficient. Landing in Hellas or another location and then hopping up to Olympus Mons?

It is apparent that there can be high humidity conditions on top of the high mountains of Mars as frost has been observed: https://earthsky.org/space/frost-on-mar … s-orbiter/
Image Quote:
Water recycling and robotics could allow a small population of humans to live on top of the Shield Volcano's as it seems to me that some water might be extracted from the thin atmosphere. I expect that the deep cold of night and certain substances such as salt could facilitate the gathering of water.

So perhaps you would have population centers in low places and in very high places, and then also Phobos and Deimos. This could allow diverse specializations of industrial processes convenient to the variety of conditions. Then of course transport would be wanted in order to leverage these capabilities into a whole set.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-06 16:34:20)

Void · 2024-10-07 04:06:47

Back to the Moon, it has suddenly occurred to me an interesting trick that might be done for the Blue Origin Moon lander ideas.
https://www.blueorigin.com/blue-moon#:~ … 20to%20the Image Quote:

What has occurred to me is that if you landed it into a small crater or made a hole for it to land in, there could be some interesting advantages.

So, then a convenient crater near the south pole would have the sun on the Horizon. The crew cabin on Blue Moon is at the bottom, so if you make a "Landing Pad Socket", some additional protection and life support may be available.

Crater Modification by Robot could include further excavating the crater to land in and also sintering a protective wall.

The ships propellant tanks being above may add some protection, the crater and sintered walls may add protection.

Some additional protection from solar radiation and also from GCR, and some additional protections from impactors.

Granted there could be problems from secondary radiation, but this at least is something to consider.

As for thermal issues, and solar energy, or nuclear energy, you could put nuclear outside the crater, and also solar elevated to catch the sun. You might even be able to put a foil tent over the crater after landing the ship for thermal issues.

However, I do not call this solved, rather it is interesting.

I like Lunar Starship, but at some point, once you land your heavy equipment, the need for it is diminished.

People seem to love binary competition, team playing. I don't.

I am very hopeful that BO can get their things going, and that then the government interference with Starship can be greatly reduced.

Then I would actually like to see, SpaceX, Blue Origin, and others cooperate.

I feel that Starship to Lunar Elliptical Refill Orbit could be very useful, and I think a Transit Starship that could both orbit the Moon and Air Skip Brake back to Lunar Elliptical Refill Orbit would be very useful. With perhaps an occasional Lunar Starship to land. But then I feel with the support of Transit Starship and also Propellant Starship, the Blue Origin Lander could be very useful.

I am only trying to figure out the best tricks, it is possible that a landing pad for the Blue Origin Lander could be a bit like what I have indicated.

And it is important to note that the use of the BE7 Engines means the use of Hydrogen as the Fuel, and that Oxygen and Hydrogen may in fact be available from the Moon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-07 04:40:21)

Void · 2024-10-07 08:16:21

Here is another article about "Mag Drive". It is consistent with the previous one that was posted elsewhere, and sort of gives just a little more information.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1rP9vJ Quote:

New metal-eating ‘bullet’ thrusters could power spacecraft for near-infinite range
Story by Christopher McFadden • 3h • 3 min read

Quote:

But how much thrust are we talking about here? According to Magdrive, the Super Magdrive can generate thrust “an order of magnitude higher than similarly sized electric propulsion systems.”
This could mean somewhere in the order of 73,756 pounds-per-foot (100,000 Newtons) like other plasma rockets (e.g., How Industries’ Pulsed Plasma Rocket). No data about the Super Magdrive has yet been released, but a team at the University of Southampton is currently testing and validating it.

It is described as not able to launch itself off of Earth, and I presume it could not launch off of the Moon without assistance of a chemical booster or Mass Driver.

It indicates again, Iron, Aluminum which can be gotten from our Moon and Phobos and Deimos, I bet, and Copper, which is available from Earth at least.

This may change the "Mars Game" at least. Where Starship must use a very difficult method of air braking and landing on the surface of Mars, this method like electric rockets could do a spiral to Mars, with a possible ballistic capture, and so would not need to use a heat shield to get to Phobos and Deimos. But unlike for electric rockets it could refuel from Earth, Luna, Phobos, Deimos, and presumably some asteroids.

I know the argument about how electric propulsion needs heavy solar panels or a nuclear reactor. That actually looks rather good, a Nuclear Reactor.

It is possible that the quantity of Methane needed to be manufactured on the Martian surface could be greatly reduced to return to Earth, as you could get Iron fairly easily on Phobos or Deimos, and perhaps Oxygen as well.

So, a modification of methods for Mars/Phobos/Deimos may be justified.

This also make expeditions to Earth Crossing asteroids more possible to imagine.

Post #162 mentions metal processing on the Moon.

Ending Pending

Consider this: Manufacture solar panels on Earth or the Moon. Lift them to orbit. Get metal propellants from Earth or the Moon. Fly an assembly to Mars orbit.

Now if you lift Dry Ice and Water Ice from Mars you can create Methane and Oxygen in orbit. This then allows you to refill chemical propulsions in the orbit of Mars. And you will not be bothered by Mars dust, and day/night, or seasons.

But you could use the propellants to move solar panels down to the surface of Mars, and also to lift Iron up to orbit, or you could get Iron from Phobos or Deimos. I am betting that if you heat Phobos or Deimos regolith in Methane you can reduce that and use magnetics to get some Iron. In that case you might be using a solar oven to bake the dust from Phobos or Deimos in hot Methane.

As far as hardware to use on the surface of Mars, it may be possible to transfer a lot of it by "Slow Boat" from Earth/Moon to Mars Orbits.

This does not prohibit the existing Starship Mars Direct, it would simply augment it.

If you can keep the Starship's heat shield in good repairs then it might be able to do multiple runs Mars Surface <> Mars Orbits, and you could refill it both on the surface and in orbit. And also you could refine Iron for the Mag Drive if you want to use that to help a return to Earth/Moon.

And that is interesting also. Could Mag Drive allow for a method back to Earth that does not require a heat Sheid?

It also asks the question if the "Large Ship" notion could run on Mag Drive?

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-07 08:47:46)

Void · 2024-10-07 10:08:47

Of the three metals that Mag Drive indicates use of, Copper is rare on the Moon, Aluminum is power expensive, and Iron could be the major export of the Moon, as it is of a significant portion of the Moon and is possible to refine with less energy than Aluminum.

Post #162 seems to support this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 63#p227063
Quote: Quote:

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,663
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I think that this is rather good, it goes far beyond any understanding I previously had and also has a lot of things that I would still need to absorb: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … tMy%20book
Quote:
Metals From Moon Dust - Lunar Metallurgy
YouTube
AnthroFuturism
14 views
2 hours ago

I have a few things to try to attach to this. One is Carbon landing legs on Moon Cargo Ships.

If Iron is going to be the currency of space, of course it needs to be Iron in the right place at the right time.

So, transport of Iron will need some method of intense launch which could involve chemical propulsions, Mass Drivers, or Skyhooks. Chemical is the one we have the most experience with, so I suggest starting with that to see if a profit can be achieved.

Carbon landing gear on the cargo ships could be left behind on the Moon, and of course if Iron is a useful propellant you would hope to lift Iron to a Lunar Orbit.

So, three processes seem to be indicated. I am rather attracted to the vacuum distillation of Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen.

And then to perhaps make the remainder into cast products if somehow that were possible. I am thinking of paving stones, and Leggo type bricks if possible but I suppose more sophisticated products might work.

I may have it wrong for the Oxygen capture but perhaps the Carbon in the ships landing legs could turn it into CO2, and you could condense it or catch it in a Adsorption filter of some kind?

Then you would need to do Electrolysis to CO and O2. So, there could be some recycling.

If Carbon got into the Iron or Nickle, I hope the Iron would still be suitable for propellants.

But maybe other ways will be needed.

Please forgive the level of art:

The hope is to distill Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen from regolith and to build a stone cylinder.

The outside of the cylinder might be wrapped in metal bands and thermally insulated. During the Lunar day, sunlight could warm the interior. For the night a tent like cover might be applied on top of it.

The archways may have closable doors.

Anyway a cargo ship might land in these, and take off with cargo.

Some protection is offered in the interior.

I suppose if you wanted to dispose of landing legs, you might hang a cargo ship on the top somehow like is proposed for Starship and Superheavy on Earth. But of course, I wanted the Carbon Landing legs. (But that is optional).

On take off if the arch doors are closed, and the structure has strength a bit of pressure buildup in the interior might assist the launch.

But all this is early thinking.

The main point is to distill Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen, and collect those, and to make useful objects out of the remainder materials.

Of course, if you want Aluminum, or some other things you need a different process.

Ending Pending

If the efficiency of procurement of Iron was good enough then ships traveling between Earth orbits and the Moon, might be mainly driven by Mag Drive.

Ending Pending

I believe the Neumann Drive could also use Iron. And Nickle.

https://neumannspace.com/neumann-drive/ … st%20focus

Last edited by Void (2024-10-07 11:24:44)

Void · 2024-10-07 11:43:10

I like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2E8XqG … 0#elonmusk Quote:

SpaceX Dragon Genius Landing Method Somehow Shocked NASA...
TECH MAP
84.5K

I really do think that at a minimum, it should consider making a Cargo Dragon that could land on the Moon with a Humanoid robot, to do science on the Moon. Even better would be if it would relaunch with samples.

Going even further perhaps such could be an emergency evacuation device, if someone in a spacesuit could ride up in it.

But of course, I am dreaming. I really don't know what is practical or priority.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-07 11:46:46)

Calliban · 2024-10-08 12:27:21

This is interesting.
http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/ … earson.pdf

Space elevators are much easier from the moon than I had assumed. There are high strength polymer cables that can produce space elevators without any taper. The problem I can see is that L2 point is 60,000km above the lunar surface. A car travelling up the cable at 120kph (70mph) would take 500 hours (21 days) to reach L2. If too much weight is put on the cable, it will break.

So space elevators appear to me to be a poorer option than mass drivers for bulk export of materials from the lunar surface. And that is really what the moon is good for. It isn't a place that many people would want to live. It is a place that is ideally situated for mining on a massive scale.

Void · 2024-10-08 15:09:26

I like that you have taken an interest in this.

I must say that as theories go, I have a fair suspicion that our space program(s) have been set up to fail. But all good things must end, I think it is possible that the overcomers will overcome this hateful and criminal structure imposed on us.

I agree that such a space elevator has serious issues as you have mentioned and also such a length should surely be subject to impactors that might damage it or even sever it.

Something that I think is true of both the Right and Left is that when they can get away with it they see the working classes as people they can cage and make supply wealth to them so that they can descend int decadence, and not have to pay for being maladaptive to the rules of the Universe.

The existence of the Soviet Empire, made it necessary that they allow technology and a Moon show. But we made the mistake of breaking the Soviet Union and our side has descended into such a decadence as they think that they have the universe by the (Thing).

I am not shy to say these things, I am neither left or right, but I can tell when I am being cheated.

Artimus has obviously been manipulated over and over to be "Oh, we can't quite make it. Maybe in 10 years".

I know that your country does not have free speech, and mine just pretends a little more than that, so don't put yourself at a risk in any reply, please.

I think that it would be nice to make Mass Driver, or Rail Gun, or Skyhook, or a combination of them on the Moon, but I think it requires a more preliminary method of getting goods off of the Moon and to the Moon. These are bit so pretty, but if they could be started up, then more sophisticated methods might follow later.

I have been looking at the Chemistry Of LOX and Powdered Aluminum.

Also, I think it could work that a combination of Starship of both Refill and Transit types, with a Jarvis, might also work nicely. Jarvis is Blue Origins 2nd stage. To work on the Moon it like Lunar Starship would not need Heat Shield or Fins but can work with Hydro Lox.

A Transit Starship that went between an Elliptical Refill Orbit of Earth to an orbit of the Moon, could hand off stuff to a Jarvis, which can use Hydro Lox. That is not to say no Lunar Starship, rather you would use them as would be suitable.

In many cases it could make sense to land a Lunar Starship with a heavy cargo and leave it there as either scrap or base materials.

But I also would be pleased if SpaceX would make a lander out of Dragon and Falcon 9 technology if possible.

It seems that an easy and early prey on the Moon can be to heat regolith and form structure and this would allow sublimation of Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen from the Regolith. Not all of it but some of it.

In practice I expect it to be more Iron and Oxygen. But both are of value.

If Transit Starship could move Methane Ice to Lunar orbit and Jarvis could bring it down. Then you may do as you please with it. It could be fuel for a Lunar Starship, or you could pull the Hydrogen out for Jarvis, and use the Carbon to make things on the Moon.

The Iron can also be used to propel spacecraft as well, and so can the Oxygen. Both by various means. If you bring a tank of Methane down to the Moons surface then perhaps you can fill it with Oxygen ice and have Jarvis lift it to orbit and hand it to the Transit Starship to air brake into the Elliptical Filling Orbit.

And of course the Moon is hoped to have Water ice and maybe CO2 and Argon. This would perhaps supplement the process. I am interested in your thoughts that are not political. (Don't want trouble for you)..

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-08 15:42:30)

Calliban · 2024-10-09 03:40:31

One interesting fact that I did find in the paper concerns this asteroid.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_SG344

It would take only 200m/s of propulsive dV to put this asteroid into high Earth orbit. That is a lot cheaper in energy terms than mining the moon.

The asteroid has a diameter of 37m and an assumed mass of 71,000 tonnes. Enough to build several large solar power satellites or a mix of space infrastructure.

Other similar rocks along with round-trip dV for a manned visit.
https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov/nhats/

All are quite small. If the dV required to put these into high Earth orbit is only a few hundred m/s, then solar powered mass driver engines could be used. We would put asteroid material into buckets, accelerate it to maybe 1km/s and expell the material as reaction mass. We would use maybe a quarter of the asteroid as propellant, with the remainder being delivered to high Earth orbit.

A 10MWe space solar array would weigh about 30 tonnes and would take 21 days to deliver a 200m/s propulsive dV to this asteroid. That assumes a mass driver efficiency of 50%, a muzzle velocity of 1000m/s, a solar array mass of 1kg/m2 and panel efficiency 25%.

Mass drivers have been designed for fixed applications in vacuum, with acceleration up to several thousand g's and muzzle velocities exceeding 10km/s. If we could build a reliable mass driver capable of exhausting at that velocity, it would make a high performance spacecraft engine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_dr … ss_drivers

Mass drivers are something that we know how to build and are capable of using any material as reaction mass. But their complexity and size makes them less than ideal choices as engines. If the mass driver engine stops working a million miles from Earth the vehicle is stranded. Chemical propellants are a possibility. We could build big LOX/Al hybrid rockets and use them to transport small NEAs back to HEO. Most of the asteroids in the database are quite small - on the order of 10m in diameter or so. So what we really need is a reusable robotic craft that can collect these, bring them back to HEO and then be refuelled and sent to get the next one. The propellants needed to retrieve the rocks can be made in HEO using solar power.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-10-09 06:01:20)

Void · 2024-10-09 07:43:29

These are all very good notions, Calliban.

I think one thing we need to acclimate to is that we have great hopes of entering into a hardware rich situation rather tan the Anemic situation that Old Space has presented. With the old hardware, we had to pick one thing to focus on. Either Mars, Moon, or asteroid.

Rockets and Robots Perhaps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfwPnqPR8UA
Quote:

Just Happened! Elon Musk ANNOUNCES New Tesla Bot Optimus Gen Release on DECEMBER! 3 Big Upgrades!
TESLA CAR WORLD

I think I have designed a powder collector for asteroids and Phobos and Deimos.

I made a drawing, but can't get into Imgur just now.

OK, got in:

OK we have a cup and perhaps some type of thruster to push it to the object surface. Then we use differential electrostatics to pull and secure materials into the cup. Electron beams make the surface of the object (-) and the cup attains a (+) charge.

Then we spin the cup just a little to get a very small amount of synthetic gravity. Then the cup is pulled away gently, and then the cup can be cupped to a materials receiver.

High enough temperatures in a vacuum is said to release Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen to sublimation. Microwaves might accomplish this.

It may be possible to keep the powder as powder and coat the dust with iron, so that it could be ejected from a Mass Driver. But other methods are available.

Iron itself could be used in a Mag Drive or Neumann propulsion device.

I think this method approaches usability for Phobos and Deimos as well.

Mag Drive: https://newatlas.com/space/super-magdri … etal-fuel/
Neuman Drive: https://neumannspace.com/neumann-drive/

Dust painted with Iron might be shot out of a Mass Driver as well, even if the bulk of it were not magnetic.
Also Oxygen can be expelled from a Mass Driver.

I will look at your new post, but just now I need breakfast.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-09 08:22:02)

Calliban · 2024-10-09 08:16:05

A space elevator built for the moon, could be a polymer tube through which projectiles of lunar materials are fired. We mount the tube on top of a vertical mass driver on the lunar surface. Projectiles are fired up the tube at a velocity slightly exceeding lunar escape. The tube itself guides the projectiles through maglev interactions. When the projectiles reach L2, their speed has declined to perhaps 50m/s. They can be collected in a bag and used as feedstock for space manufacturing. A tube some 10cm in inner diameter could lift millions of tonnes of material each year.

A neat thing about the elevator concept is that the counterweight could be a solar power satellite. At L2, it would be in sunlight for over 99% of the time. It could be used to power the mass driver on the surface using a direct cable connection. Who needs microwaves when you have wires. Eventually, the elevator could be scaled up to deliver however much material we need from the moon.

Void · 2024-10-09 09:14:48

A high achievement such as you suggest may be possible if a good thing, I feel. We should participate in both high and low aims.

I think that dealing with the fine dust that the universe has presented to us may be important. After all since the Stone Age we have been chipping away at rocks.

Dust may be the Pablum for the early days of the efforts we may choose to struggle with.

So, then to find how to use this "Free" gift to its maximum values.

After all later if we deal with chunks of Rock we will have to grind them or melt them which is harder.

It seems to me at this point that we are on the edge of some good things.

But I have social obligations so I will get back later.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-09 09:17:45)

Void · 2024-10-10 07:57:17

Isaac Arthur imagines big and yet has valuable measurements in his work. Io is not our Moon, but this video is interesting in itself, but also some parts of this could apply to our Moon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNarTB9Zzo8
Quote:

Colonizing Io: Can Humanity Thrive on Jupiter’s Fiery Moon?
Isaac Arthur
793K subscribers

Sometimes skeptics say we should "Get down to Earth".

I am instead trying at this time to "Get down to Dirt".

It is good to have logic, and use it and those such as Dr. Zubrin did so, knowing that the space effort was anemic at best, the calculated that the Moon would be a diversion and that with great effort, it could be possible to attain Mars, if water and CO2 on Mars were used as a propellant resource. They were not wrong for that anemic era of technology.

However, SpaceX may not be stopped by the Toxic Anti-humanists, and we may see a very robust technology that can include Spaceships and Robots. This can change the Logic.

While we do still need to use the propulsion, systems developed prior to this present Era (Around 2025), I wonder if we also can consider building "Dirt Roads" to other worlds including Mars?

The Mass Driver has been around as a notion for some time, but I think that new thrust methods are becoming many in types and unique processes. And they are not necessarily dependent on Hydrocarbon Fuels or even Hydrogen.

As I have said before stone age technology in part involved chipping or breaking rocks. I am very familiar with this as I observed and participated in the maintenance of machinery used to break and render to a powder rock in a mining facility.

The Universe has been pounding rocks to dust/powder for billions of years. To an infant technology with the correct adaptations this could be like assistance from a parent such as Mammal Milk, or Bird Crop Milk, or Pablum if you want to look at it that way.

We might consider this dirt as a low-grade ore. But we are discovering many ways to utilize lower grade ores over time with the further birthing of new technology, and methods of energy such as solar and nuclear.

A Mass Driver could be a sort of dirt road, if a ship were to expel regolith products. The electromechanical processes for that are very demanding though, in my opinion. It definitely does not K.I.S.S. nicely.

And if we do "Dirt Expulsion" methods we have to fear making the pathways between world impassable in time.

Resorting again back to a previous post #162: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 63#p227063
Quote:

I think that this is rather good, it goes far beyond any understanding I previously had and also has a lot of things that I would still need to absorb: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … tMy%20book:
Quote:
Metals From Moon Dust - Lunar Metallurgy
YouTube
AnthroFuturism
14 views
2 hours ago

Mass Drivers could expel Oxygen or some types of dust without a major risk. The solar wind may disperse these things and even push them out of the travel lanes.

One process mentioned in that video is to heat materials up in a strong vacuum and certain materials will sublimate out. That includes Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen.

An "Educated Wish" on this is that you could reduce the Iron in the dust and make it more magnetic. You would need to be able to remove the Oxygen so that it would not return the Iron to unwanted Oxidation. ("Educated Wish", is from Deadpool & Wolverine). Actually, it kind of parallels, "Faith" and "Hope" two things that are recommended by a certain teacher. Such method can build a bridge from what wasn't to what can be.

My hope is that such magnetic dust, and perhaps the produced Oxygen could be expelled from much miniaturized Mass Drivers, without a "Bucket". My hope is that magnetized dust might be cleaned out of the travel pathways, much better as I hope the solar wind will sweep it away.

If we manage to accomplish this then various sources of dirt will be of value to us, as most such dust should have some materials that would be suitable like Iron and Nickle.

Obviously you must do more than wish, you have to treat the dust with heat in a vacuum and yet not let it clump together. I suspect that a Microwave method or solar method may be helpful, but the not clumping is not a thing I am sure of.

Anyway, a "Educated Wish" about "Dirt Roads" to other worlds.

Of course, higher level treatments of regolith could yield Iron which apparently can be used in new thrusters such as Mag Drive, and Neumann Drive.

Where we may hope to get Methane and Oxygen from Mars, and Hydrogen and Oxygen from the Moon, we can get "Dirt Drive" methods from various worlds, even if they are "Bone Dry".

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-10 08:37:17)

Void · 2024-10-10 10:17:44

Here is an attempt at my "Dirt Drive"

The "Dirt" is presumed to have been treated to reduce the Iron content which is expected to be a minority component.
We keep the Dust from clumping with Degaussing Magnetics and an Electrostatic (+) repulsion.

By some means then this fluid is introduced to a small Mass Driver and propelled down a linear acceleration path, and then to an electrostatic expansion bell. Then we shoot the electrons we robbed from the "Dirt Tank" at the plume of expelled materials.

It is a first try.

Ending Pending

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