New Mars Forums

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,820

Re: CO2 as a resource [associated with orbital assets]

I am interested in the integration of orbital assets into the system I previously suggested.  However, in order to idiot test my assumptions, I want to make observations of published materials: https://phys.org/news/2024-06-centers-s … nes.%20The
Quote:

June 24, 2024

Editors' notes
Could we put data centers in space?
by Andy Tomaswick, Universe Today

I have already aligned with the idea of yes, but I think that rather than discrete objects in orbit they might be included into power satellites, and space manufacturing, and space sciences, and space Tourism.  Even without piping energy Ground<>Orbit, a power system(s) could serve all of these as an energy grid.

As for piping energy ground<>Orbit, I think that there could be cases where energy directed to a place and time, could have sufficient value to justify the expense.  And with practice efficiency and effectiveness might be developed though experimentation.

However, the American space industry is going to have to get though the current challenges of active harassment from control obsessed entities.  I believe that we battle with dinosaurs that are destined to fail, but unfortunately, they will drag against progress for some time before they are not a significant problem.

Anyway, I think that a ring(s) of such platforms would be good for Earth but also for worlds like Mars, and perhaps our Moon, maybe Venus.

Time to meditate, I will probably look for more current thinking that is not my own.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-30 13:00:48)

---

End

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,856

Re: CO2 as a resource [associated with orbital assets]

Void,

I tend to agree with RobertDyck that data centers will be far easier to maintain back on Earth.  However, there's one kind of computing which I think is ideally suited for space-based processing applications, because it could literally be solar-pumped, like a solar pumped laser- one capable of staggering throughput for simple processing tasks.

Remember Microsoft's AIM computing?

It doesn't store anything, but it transfers and does simple processing tasks at an astonishing rate, because it uses every color of light in the spectrum to do it.  AIM computing is like the ultimate GPU.  Data processing would be "full blast" at all times, because the power of the Sun being pumped through the "photonic circuitry" is dong the work.  When the data gets beamed back to Earth, it's already a semi-usable product that requires far less "basic number crunching" to use.  Recall how AI is about learning how to identify patterns.  What if we had a pattern matcher with a stupid amount of throughput capability?

Back on Earth, we'd sift, sort, and decide what to keep, because we won't be able to store all of it.

Examples:
AI-enabled pattern matching is performed on SAR data in near real time (minutes to hours), but ideally we want actual real time.  The reason we can't have it is the amount of basic number crunching and data encoding for transmission.  Wouldn't it be great if we could have SAR satellite imagery of all the ships in the South China Sea, but rather than searching through vast amounts of data looking for actual ships vs noise, all that kind of low-level processing was performed before we ever received the data, so all we have to do is figure out which ones are Chinese warships?

On the civil end of the spectrum, suppose we want to rapidly identify fires of significant size to put them out.  We don't need to figure out who's cooking dinner vs a particular patch of forest that happens to be on fire.  Maybe we don't even need verbal communication that something is wrong, because the computer program on the ground simply alerts local firefighters of a fire, they bring a helicopter or plane with a large water bucket to put it out on the spot.  We might get fast enough response times that they don't become gigantic blazes.  They don't have to figure out where to go or how to get there when a satellite is providing waypoints of beacons to go to.  We could even uses high altitude near-satellites combined with satellite-based photonic data crunching.

Perhaps a wayward pilot loses his bearings and needs immediate survivable landing options, so a satellite identifies suitable landing sites in mere seconds to provide a glide path and heading to put the plane down.  If the onboard software program knows the performance characteristics of the plane, then it can make intelligent decisions about where to search around the plane.  A commercial airliner and a Cessna obviously have very different stall speeds and glide ratios, so the compute program aboard the satellite won't waste time looking at terrain features for a landing site 1 mile away from an airliner's present position or 10 miles away from a small Cessna.  Irreplaceable time is not wasted when seconds make the difference between walking away or not.

We're offloading all the low-level but otherwise very compute intensive processing tasks to an inexhaustible energy source providing something akin to quantum computing capabilities.  We receive the intermediate data products to polish, package, and deliver.  An Earth-based data center or direct end-use computer program would then act only need to do final processing and distribution.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,820

Re: CO2 as a resource [associated with orbital assets]

Well, that is a very interesting idea as far as I can understand it.  I am sure that in the end economics will rule.

Ending Pending

---

End

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,820

Re: CO2 as a resource [associated with orbital assets]

So, now for orbital platforms, I think I have to resort to a core of "Microgravity Manufacturing".  This "Thought-Child" is much less likely to be clubbed to death in the nursery.    Unless anti-gravity is invented somehow, it is not possible to have microgravity on Earth.

It may be true however that Elon Musk and Tony Seba may be correct that solar, wind, and wave, can be done well enough on Earth itself.

As for data Centers, it seems some form of it has some possibility of having value in orbit.

As for Science and Tourism, those may finance themselves.

Any of these activities in orbit would likely require solar or nuclear energy.  Nuclear is most likely to be restricted to some degree by national interests, so perhaps then Solar.

But as I have said, if you have power systems on the surface of Earth, while you could run data centers with them, putting data centers in orbit would allow that surface energy to be used for other economic purposes.

I think that it is true that at first maintenance of data systems in orbits could be difficult.  But then again later if we have a broad exposure to a mix of worlds, Venus, Luna, Earth, Mars, Asteroids, then the idea of large platforms in various places in space are plausible and infrastructure to maintain various technologies in space will be sensible.

So, I think I have dug out of the hole that was provided me, to stifle this discussion.  So, I may continue.

Restart: This sibling topic has some drawings I like: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 21#p226621
Quote from post #1 of that topic:

I have not completely coved the cylinder with Chevron Radiator Fins, as I want to go eat something.  But I think this could point a path to having a structure which could endure some aspects of the space environment such as impactors.

In the drawing they are rather large, I think they would be scaled down in size.

I am guessing that Aluminum could be a good material for it.

The Chevrons would absorb the energy of an impact, and so in many cases may protect the skin of the radiator cylinder.

So, then this is a thing in the nursery that I do not want clubbed to death in a binary evaluation zero-sum contest.

The Chevron pattern is an adaptation of a protective device used for windows in the concepts related to Gerard K. O'Neill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_K._O%27Neill#:~:text=Gerard%20Kitchen%20O'Neill%20(February%206,%201927%20%E2%80%93%20April%2027,%201992)#:~:text=Gerard%20Kitchen%20O'Neill%20(February%206,%201927%20%E2%80%93%20April%2027,%201992)

I see a possibility of sending Starships up to become such radiators.  In reality it may be possible to keep the potential cabin space as for other purposes, but to use the two propellant tanks as pressurized radiators.  The Chevron Fins, would help in cooling, protect from impactors, and could actually buttress the shell of the ship.

Such an arrangement may be assistive in providing cooling for processes that may create excess heat such as data centers.

These ships then could be positioned behind some type of solar energy devices in orbit, to assist in cooling.

So, I consider this topic restarted with the notion that a primary objective could be to have space manufacturing in alternat gravity situations, including micro-gravity and perhaps some spin gravity.  Additional activities which could be supported in parallel, such as Data Centers, and perhaps even orbital power could be included.

And I think that the development of such platforms could be assistive in the occupation and terraforming of other worlds for the benefit of humans.  The only block I will consider valid would be say for Venus, where if life is confirmed, a different path should be implemented.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-01 10:01:06)

---

End

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,820

Re: CO2 as a resource [associated with orbital assets]

Inspired by Calibans current post, I have considered how to use a sand pile and radiator fins to build something on another world, such as our Moon. 

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 88#p226888

A and B may represent habitat for humans.  The cone could be pressurized with Oxygen or perhaps Sulfur Dioxide.

I have not shown the radiator fins which could be chevron in nature on the outside of the Pyramid or Cone.

The "Sand" would not include fine dust but would have been screened from lunar regolith for a proper size.

If anti-solar cells actually become a real thing, then the interior of the cone would have them, and the heat radiated would provide a small amount of electric power though the Lunar night.  But of course, nuclear may provide power as well, but nuclear power may be wanted for use in other resource procurements.  This sand pile in a cone might provide a relatively fail safe path to surviving a lunar night at places like the equator.

I would again intend that the cone on the outside would include Chevron Radiator fins, that would protect the inflated cone from impactors.

Quote from the just previous post:

The Chevron pattern is an adaptation of a protective device used for windows in the concepts related to Gerard K. O'Neill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_K._O%27Neill#:~:text=Gerard%20Kitchen%20O'Neill%20(February%206,%201927%20%E2%80%93%20April%2027,%201992)#:~:text=Gerard%20Kitchen%20O'Neill%20(February%206,%201927%20%E2%80%93%20April%2027,%201992)

I see a possibility of sending Starships up to become such radiators.  In reality it may be possible to keep the potential cabin space as for other purposes, but to use the two propellant tanks as pressurized radiators.  The Chevron Fins, would help in cooling, protect from impactors, and could actually buttress the shell of the ship.

Restart: This sibling topic has some drawings I like: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 21#p226621
Quote from post #1 of that topic:

So, as I want to promote technological development, I again mention Chevron Radiator Fins, also then for the Moon, maybe Mars, or other worlds.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-01 10:27:57)

---

End

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,820

Re: CO2 as a resource [associated with orbital assets]

i want to store this somewhere, this place will do: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … d%20people
Quote:

The mind-blowing thing we get WRONG about energy
YouTube
DW Planet A
394.1K views
4 months ago

I think I want to assimilate the terminology in this video, and the ideas about efficiency.

The phrase "Rejected Energy".

So, this might apply to the notion that orbital solar power may only have a small slice of Final Energy, and a larger slice of Rejected Energy
So, if we use solar energy on site in orbit, we only "Slice" then energy two times.  First the collection, and second, the work.
Work in orbit could be Data Centers, Microgravity Manufacturing, and Life Support, at least.

And so, then if we would try to microwave power down to Earth or up from Earth, then we might be doing a new slice of the energy with the majority of it perhaps being Rejected, or not.  I have heard 37% to 75% perhaps as what might be possible for Final Energy.

(If I have assimilated the thinking correctly.)

So, then we may need much more solar collection apparatus to gather the amount of energy so that after Slicing, we get meaningful and productive energy to provide Final Energy in a sufficient magnitude.

As I have said before however, "Robotic Deflation" may put the means to create that apparatus at a Gainful Cost.

I am also interested in treatments for Bone and Muscle loss.  This I have read are the experiments on Mice on the ISS seem to indicate that 1 G simulated gravity are needed to preserve bone properly.  And Muscle is a bit better but still needs the gravity simulation.

But there seems to be hope in the form of chemical stimulation to promote bone density: https://phys.org/news/2023-09-compound- … 20compound
Quote:

September 18, 2023

Editors' notes
Engineered compound shows promise in preventing bone loss in space
by Kelsie Sandoval, University of California, Los Angeles

So, then if humans could live long term in microgravity with some spin gravity and some chemical stimulation, a greater amount of the work, for the produced energy could be on site at the power satellite.  So, then perhaps there would be only one stage of energy slicing for that onboard "Load".

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-04 09:09:49)

---

End