Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers

Void · 2024-09-16 11:16:16

I am probably looking for trouble.

But I have been thinking of how a canister could be made into a radiator on the Moon.

I guess the easiest thing would be to land a Starship, and partially fill it with a fluid. Because of Calliban, I am thinking Sulfur Dioxide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide

I guess gas, liquid, and solid phases would be possible, and perhaps useful or troublesome.

Of course trouble with this on the Moon could be impactors that would puncture it.

On Mars, we might use CO2.

But it might be possible to store cold in solid to liquid phase, but I understand there are plenty of things not yet discovered that could be wrong about this.

For data centers in space, such a radiator might be useful. It might use a different fluid, however. (th) has posted about data centers in space recently.

If you had a means to recycle engines back to Earth, a "Naked" Starship might be a path to a massive radiator that could be shaded by solar panels.

Just giving it a try.

Ending Pending

I have not completely coved the cylinder with Chevron Radiator Fins, as I want to go eat something. But I think this could point a path to having a structure which could endure some aspects of the space environment such as impactors.

In the drawing they are rather large, I think they would be scaled down in size.

I am guessing that Aluminum could be a good material for it.

The Chevrons would absorb the energy of an impact, and so in many cases may protect the skin of the radiator cylinder.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-17 08:52:55)

Void · 2024-09-16 19:18:57

Scott Manley has a rather negative take on data centers in space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-YcVLq98Ew
Quote:

Does It Make Sense To Put Data Centers In Space? Can They Really Cost Less To Operate?
Scott Manley
1.7M subscribers

And that is OK. The truth will set you free.

Even so, I don't mind attempting to find a way, or at least a partial solution to at least one problem.

From post #1:

Although I suggested Aluminum as a possible material for the Chevron Fins, I would also like to see magnetic materials printed on them or embedded in them or attached to them.

This is a space junk solution perhaps. The idea is that if you have a magnetic field in the data center, and the fins are chipped, they may not drift away but may over time return to the outside of the data center.

Perhaps a DC field will not bother the electronics of the data center. It might even give some radiation protection.

For the data center, an interior atmosphere of N2/O2 could work, but it might be good to keep the Oxygen level low to inhibit fires. This might be hard for humans to breath, but they might be able to have an Oxygen mask to avoid Hypoxia.

Then the air inside of the ship should be cool. Perhaps direct cooling with cold dry air might be employed, or perhaps water cooling would be used, and the heat in the water would have to be distributed into the air in the ship or the walls of the ship.

Historically Elon Musk has said that it may be possible to do Starship SSTO, but it could not have legs, or a heat shield or even carry any significant cargo. But if you could launch a naked Starship SSTO, and recycle the engines and avionics, then you might make radiators out of them. But of course, improvements to the ship would be needed to turn it into a data center. So, two stage Starship would be needed to lift up that mass.

It would need the computers, the Chevron radiator fins, the solar panels and I am thinking, quite a lot more.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-16 19:31:40)

Void · 2024-09-17 08:38:30

I am becoming more excited for this. I think that such data centers could start in a lower orbit and then perhaps be towed over time to geosynchronous orbit.

The slow tow could be perhaps done with electrodynamic tethers. But the devices could work all the time from the original build in a low orbit.

The idea of using solar energy and the cooling of the universe to support data centers does seem to me to be a desirable pathway. But it may involve some work to accomplish it.

Ending Pending

I am thinking that microwave beaming could help to solve the source energy problem. Could you piggyback data into the microwaves?

Power beaming to Earth could be included, but also the reverse might occur.

Possibly the Moon might become involved as an energy source.

I did say Geosynchronous, but something lower than that, maybe a ring(s) of power could be possible, maybe one to rule them all!

Ending Pending

So, maybe orbital solar power to Earth could be compatible with data centers in space.
And data centers may share energy between other locations and themselves.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-17 08:58:59)

Void · 2024-09-18 05:57:32

I would like to consider this:

A, B, and C are in orbits above LEO, and so not strongly in danger of a Kesler Syndrome participation.

But not so far from Earth that Time Latency is too bad between them and the Earth stations.

A, B, C have At least 2 revenue streams, the Data Centers and Orbital Solar power. Probably they also host space stations as well.

While the net distribution of power would be from A, B, C to Earth, it would also be possible to send power from Earth stations to A, B, C.

For instance, geothermal power from places like Iceland. Solar power from desert areas. Wind power from such locations that could provide power that way.

While there is some reason to want one consolidated Data Center, on the other hand maybe it is not desired to have all the eggs in one basket.

A, B, C may each use electrodynamic tethers to maintain station keeping.

Some radiation protection could be provided by water. With Hydrogen from Earth and Oxygen from the Moon.

Aluminum and other materials from the Moon could be used in part to build the structures A, B, C.

As an example, Aluminum Oxide transported from the Moon, and Hydrogen from Earth could be utilized to make water, and Aluminum for radiator fins to encompass "Naked" Starship Radiators.

Such water used for radiation shielding where needed could also support aquaculture.

I give it a maybe at this point.

I suppose we might call this a planetary energy grid. For instance, power from a place like Iceland could be redistributed to other parts of the world. But of course, we also want to capture a lot of energy from orbital solar as well into this "Grid".

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-20 08:21:02)

Void · 2024-09-18 10:22:35

Continuing with this, it might be possible that heat shields made of Lunar Regolith could provide the Aluminum Oxide that I suggested a use
for in the previous post.

Also, it may be possible that power beamed from the centers could be assistive to spacecraft travel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam-powered_propulsion
There are several concepts that could provide assistance to a spacecraft, but they are undeveloped at this point and not so well proven.

As for energy storage, the idea of using the spin of spin gravity habitats to store energy has been mentioned by Isaac Arthur and some other persons.

So, you might have Mega Satellites with various components, including data centers, solar power methods, and habitats, some which can spin.

We have seen this suggestion before: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres

Image Quote:
Each dot on the center plain is to be a spin gravity world.

Cold for Data Centers based on ships like Starship could be on the back side of the two outer plains.

Solar power could be done in various ways.

One favorable feature for this structure is that for many small impactors, the Plain structures would partially provide protection by taking the hits so to speak.

By using this method, and also having the mega structures sufficiently high in orbit above LEO, some protection can be added in addition to the Chevron Radiator method I have previously suggested.

From post #1:

The system will promote strange international "Bedfellows". I have to say that I would like something other than the UN for this.

I feel that the UN is too tainted by the "Anti-Colonial" mentality which can be Anti-Western. That is not to say that I do not understand that other cultures can have value, rather, I feel that the "Anti-Colonial" era has mostly done its work. It was desirable that it occurred after the event of the Colonial Era. Now we are in a new Era and should not be weighed down by these outdated concepts of justice.

Colonial Empires were a threat to the USA for instance, but also the Anti-Colonial movement has also been a source of potential problems that could be quite serious.

But such a grid could be helpful to our world and might be a pattern to repeat for other worlds. We need to come up with something that is not anti-human. And from my point of view not Anti-American. (Or Anti-Your Thing Perhaps). (Supposing your thing is not Cannibalism for instance).

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-18 20:57:23)

Void · 2024-09-20 07:06:33

Recently the nature of the Moon's formation is under question.

Really there are two ways to work with the Moon. Machines and People. Of course these can work together.

How "wet" the Moon, is should be the determination of how much weight can go to each.

There have been notions of Mass Drivers or Rail Guns on the Moon, and Space Elevators, or Skyhooks have been spoken of.

I suppose that someday that could be possible, but my notion is that we should really go towards robotic actions on the Moon, and the use of chemical launches, perhaps assisted a little bit with catapults. A propulsion based on Aluminum and LOX may be worthwhile. Not really high-grade best desires, but possible.

I would like to see Heat Shields mass produced on the Moon. Those then perhaps to airbrake to an orbit of Earth, while shielding a spacecraft traveling from the Moon to Earth.

I have just had an idea of a possible Staged Launch method for the Moon, where the 1st stage never leaves the surface.

Imagine a Farris Wheel as the 1st Stage. It would have some of the qualities of Spin Launch.

It is just a little Rube-Goldberg at this point, but at least for imagination, some fun.

Image Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferris_wheel

But let's mount it on rails and tilt it 45 degrees to the ground. A crater rim wall may be a place to do this.

But we will not spin this up with a motor and launch a load, we will simply give it a hard push from a zero-speed start, and launch the 2nd stage that is on it. After then then you have to safely spin down the circular 1st stage.

We could use various methods of stored energy to do this sling action. Chemical Rocket is the one that would be the easiest to understand.

As an imaginative concept, think of a 1st stage booster chemical rocket that is a circle, on rails where magnetic support might be used. I don't expect it to go extremely fast, just maybe give 10% of the desired launch energy. Not for launching humans.

So, you might be able to put charges into solid chambers, charges of Aluminum and LOX, and ignite them to do a very fast acceleration.
If the 2nd stage, then leaves, then you can use some sort of braking to slow the wheel down.

But we could have a look at a Pull-Start recoil on a gas lawn mower, or other devices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_start

I am actually considering gravity energy storage, so a very large weight dropped down connected by cable, perhaps?

The 2nd Stage would actually be mounted centered on the wheel, so as to not present a lopsided situation on the wheel, until you would actually fire the 2nd stage engines, then it would go down, and up a slide, getting momentum from the wheel as it moves from a centered position to an edge ejection.

I didn't start this post with that idea, it just showed up.

Even if you used chemical propulsion with the wheel, as the 1st stage, recovery of the 1st stage simply requires that it does not fly apart and can be safely spun back down for another launch.

Perhaps magnetic levitation above rails would be the bearings, but not the means of propelling the spin.

Something to consider perhaps.

But of course, I still remain excited about a primarily robotic Moon effort, with a small amount of human activity on the Moon.

In the drawing I considered a cannon rather than the slide. A bit of the push out of the cannon could perhaps be a small explosion, which would occur when the 2nd stage ignites its engine(s).

In my mind though the objective is to lift heat shield materials off of the Moon, composed of Oxides primarily, and this might be done without such a sling-catapult.

I might imagine various other ways to lift them up to a Lunar orbit as well.

The heat shield materials then perhaps air braking to an elliptical orbit of Earth then to be incorporated into space stations, which could include data centers and other forms of economically beneficial activities.

Perhaps 3 or more major space centers in orbit a bit above LEO, as represented by this from post #4:

Can such heat shield materials be considered Life Support for these space centers and what they might support? I think so.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-20 08:23:13)

tahanson43206 · 2024-09-28 11:49:02

For Void re this topic ...

This topic is currently the only one that makes mention of data centers in space....

It appears that not everyone in the NewMars membership is tuned into why this is a good idea.

I understand and recognize that you don't like being asked to do anything.

I'll just point out that this topic of yours is a good place for members who might wish to help to show why the argument for data centers in space is receiving substantial funding.

Data centers on Earth are consuming vast resources, including fresh water for cooling.

It will be interesting to see what our members may come up with to show that placing data centers on Earth is an old idea whose time has come and now is under increasing pressure to consider alternatives.

(th)

Void · 2024-09-28 15:05:46

Well, you have already made a good argument, and by the way, I recall that you mentioned it somewhere before I made this topic.
In a presumed age of plenty that is to come, the less burden we place on the Earth. We may have opportunity to allow for more wild lands. which people might have a desire to vacation on. For instance, Farmland might be made fallow and turned into recreation land that also may be useful to wildlife.

Tony Seba says that Precision Fermentation may allow lots of farmland to go fallow. I suppose such fallow land could have solar power on it and then also perhaps open spaces for humans and some plants and animals.

The desire for compute is going to be almost infinite, so even if there is more solar power on the surface of Earth, and if Carbon is sequestered in vegetation that could grow, that power might be put to other human needs and compute in space in data centers could help to allow for that.

Tony Seba, Precision Fermentation: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

So, actually compute in space makes much more sense than to transmit power from space to Earth. But I favor both.

It could be a very pleasant Earth, I think he says that land the size of the USA and China could be returned to semi-wild, and perhaps be recreational for humans and yet energy generating (Solar Panels), and a place where some types of plants and animals could be allowed to take root.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-28 15:10:30)

tahanson43206 · 2024-09-30 13:10:12

It is good to see the idea of data centers in space showing up elsewhere in the forum.

The wider the coverage of this important topic, the better.

I understand no one in the forum membership is a serious investor (except for FriendOfQuark1, who chooses to communicate via email).

However, the vast sums to be made by all kinds of businesses as funders aim for the practically unlimited opportunity will surely cause activity that members of this forum can watch and perhaps even comment upon in coming years.

There will even be opportunity for providers of radiators to send waste heat from all those CPU's out to deep space.

(th)

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#1 2024-09-16 11:16:16

Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers

#2 2024-09-16 19:18:57

Re: Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers

#3 2024-09-17 08:38:30

Re: Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers

#4 2024-09-18 05:57:32

Re: Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers

#5 2024-09-18 10:22:35

Re: Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers

#6 2024-09-20 07:06:33

Re: Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers

#7 2024-09-28 11:49:02

Re: Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers

#8 2024-09-28 15:05:46

Re: Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers

#9 2024-09-30 13:10:12

Re: Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers

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