Oxygen bottleneck and fire ignition

Quaoar · 2024-09-13 04:51:50

Void wrote:

Quaoar you work is as (th) has said very interesting.
I have been thinking about other precursors for technology which could exist without fire.
Windmills, watermills. Friction on wooden bearings might get hot. I have wondered if bellows might allow for some type of fire. I understand that normal fires are not to be expected on such a world. In truth they might wet down a hot spot, but maybe they might use air cooling as the atmosphere is so thick.
Perhaps they might have an air blower for some other purpose, such as air circulation in a habitat? Bellows?
https://blacksmithu.com/function-purpos … cts%20from.
Ending Pending

They make large use of wind mills and friction-based owens, very used in the obscure emishere, where is impossible to use the solar light. The more simple of them is the rolling-stones owen, powered by very hot stones, which are heated in a rolling barrel connected to a wind or water mill. A more evolute owen is the oil friction owen connected to the oil refrigerating circuit of the bronze gears of a mill: the hot oil exits from the bronze gear barrel, enters in a create or stone owen, heating it, then it enters in the cooilng radiators, which my be also used to heat a house, and comes back into the gear barrel

Void wrote:

Quaoar you work is as (th) has said very interesting.
Lightning Strikes might produce glowing embers if not then a fire.
They might find loadstones the fragments which might attract each other.
An Electric Eel like organism with electric shock defense, might puzzle them. So, might help them to eventually gain a notion of electricity.
I am just looking for what technological stimulations they might have.
Ending Pending

Do you know that in Roman Empire torpedo-fish where raised and used for electroshock terapy of some kind of mental disease?

Void wrote:

Quaoar you work is as (th) has said very interesting.
But your point is rather good for the question of technological aliens. Caves have been found where animals live on 10% Oxygen or so. So, indeed there could be animals, but no fire.
As I said, I like your work.
I see that for our atmospheric pressure about 16% is needed for fire. But I observe that bellows can make a fire grow hotter. Maybe also for your higher-pressure world? Or maybe the air flow cools things too much.
My hope is that they might discover electricity and Oxygen somewhere along the line, perhaps after making metals with your Copper mirrors. If they had Copper they could have wires, if they had Loadstones, they might use motion from a windmill or watermill to generate electricity, perhaps as a sort of magical thing at first to impress others.
If they had lightning to observe, and a friction method to generate electrostatic sparks, perhaps this might be an early path to discover electricity. They might discover compasses, as an early machine.
People who could do such things might be magicians to others. They could not be burned at the stake however.
Ending Pending

My Planet has a sea level pressure of 1.31 atm. with 11% of O2 and 88% of N2, so the pO2 is 14.4%, almost the same of Leadville Colorado. So there is no problem in breathing, but, according to the article, it was impossible to ignite a fire before the invention of zeolite oxygen concentrators.

Electricity is not used in my novel: Ganryas have a modern math, know well newtonian physic and are very good hydraulic and mechanical engineer, almost like on the Earth in 1800, but they have only empiric notions about chemestry. They know that matter is composed by atoms, but ignore how the atoms are made and how they react. They empirically use some solution to give a beautiful patna to bronze and billon manufacts, they also know galvanic corrosion and empirically know how to protect bimetallic object with zinc anods, but they never develpe battery and electric engines

tahanson43206 · 2024-09-13 06:21:43

For Quaoar re planet building exercise....

Your work with the no-fire planet reminds me of "planet building" exercises I have read about. Apparently these occur when a group of science fiction writers gather at a conference, and the details for an imaginary world are defined, and then the group works with those to create characters and groups to live with whatever the conditions are.

Science Fiction has a tried-and-true formula that is used by most authors. There is usually the set up in which characters are introduced, and a situation is developed in some detail, so that a problem can be presented and understood in the context of the story. Usually but not always, there is a happy outcome.

Since you've been writing novels and perhaps short stories for many years, my guess is that you have a rich repertoire of scenarios to draw upon. Some of the most memorable authors I've enjoyed over the years have a core set of characters who the author takes into new situations based upon the imaginary world the author has created.

In the situation you've described, you're starting fresh, so you have the opportunity to create a number of memorable characters. The Vassal King is just one example ... that individual might still chafe at the indignity of having to kow tow to the stronger leader nearby.

On the other hand, the leader of the stronger group may have rivals snapping at his heels.

The reproductive process will surely lead to conflicts as individuals jostle for favorable opportunities.

The erratic behavior of the Red Dwarf will provide plenty of challenges for characters to face.

Arrival of an Earth probe might occur, to add a new dimension to the series.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2024-09-13 17:20:16

related to earths oxygen What's the highest place on Earth that humans live?

Worldwide, more than 80 million people live at least 8,202 feet (2,500 meters) above sea level, mainly in South America, Central Asia and East Africa.
Some of the highest permanent settlements include Wenquan in China's Qinghai province, at a staggering 15,980 feet (4,870 m) above sea level, and Korzok in India, around 15,000 feet (4,572 m) above sea level.
However, one place towers above them all. Nestled in the Peruvian Andes is a town that is nicknamed "Devil's Paradise." Officially named La Rinconada, its 50,000 inhabitants live between 16,404 feet (5,000 m) and 17,388 feet (5,300 m) above sea level, making it the highest permanent settlement on Earth.

Like on Mars nothing will be easy.

GW Johnson · 2024-09-13 20:14:47

La Rinconada is the town evaluated in the AAAS "Science" article I used to set my long-term hypoxia criteria. Nearly all its residents suffer from chronic mountain sickness symptoms, and there is an elevated rate of childbirth difficulties.

GW

Quaoar · 2024-09-15 16:18:13

Here is a list of devices using for heating

1) the black-stones owen, used only in the daylite emisphere, powered by black stones heated by the sun
2) the rolling-stones owen, used mainly in the night emisphere, powered by stones heated by friction in a spinning barrel conntected to a water or wind mill
3) the oil friction owen is a more mature evolution of the lattter: the owen is heated by the refrigerating oil of the gears of a wind or a water mill.
4) the solar owen, power by concave mirrors: the older mirrors were made by cold hammering native copper, the more modern ones were cast in speculum metal (70% copper 30%tin). These are the only kind of owens which can smelt copper and tin to make bronze, creating tension between the well-developed People of the Light and the more primitive People of the Night, who cannot smelt metals and can only relie on imports...

I' have found a very interresting experimental work by a NASA team about combustion in different kind of atmospheres: they have found that under 41 kPa of total pressure combustion depends on oxygen partial pressure, but over 41 kPa (about 0.4 atm) combustion is independent of oxygen partial pressure and depends only on oxygen volume%. So the limit of 17% of oxygen, uder which combustion is impossible for many kind of materials is independent of the gas total pressure. To expain the results, the authors hypotize that, over 41 kPa, there is a change of combustion modality and the dominant phenomenon becomes the competition for the surface sites of the samples between the O2 and the buffer gas molecules.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20160001047

After reading this work, I create the atmpshpere of my planet Caelen: 1.47 atm of sea level pressure with 13.6% O2, 84.8% N2, 1.2% Ar, 0.4% others. This atmoshere is normoxic, because the oxygen partial pressure is about 0.2 atm, like on our Earth, and a human can breathe without any problem, but the 13.6 volume% of oxygen makes combustion impossible.

Last edited by Quaoar (2024-09-15 16:45:37)

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#26 2024-09-13 04:51:50

Re: Oxygen bottleneck and fire ignition

#27 2024-09-13 06:21:43

Re: Oxygen bottleneck and fire ignition

#28 2024-09-13 17:20:16

Re: Oxygen bottleneck and fire ignition

#29 2024-09-13 20:14:47

Re: Oxygen bottleneck and fire ignition

#30 2024-09-15 16:18:13

Re: Oxygen bottleneck and fire ignition

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