Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

Void · 2024-09-08 18:48:22

Moderators, kill or move this as you may wish.

Watching other posts from the other members I sort of have come to realize that in dealing with Air Batteries, the use of geothermal heat could substitute for the need to boil a liquid. This then could perhaps use a lower quality of geothermal.

I think that this could work well with intermittent energy sources.

There may be some interesting associated processes. For instance, to heat a building you perhaps could compress air, and then store the compressed air. Then when you needed electricity you could expand that stored air using geothermal heat to run a turbine.

Pause................

This is a related notion where compressed air is pumped underground: https://www.livescience.com/4955-compre … lectricity.

Quote:

How Compressed Air Could Power the Future
News
By Michael Schirber published June 4, 2008

I don't know how far that has gone, it is a bit old.

You might be able to use salt domes for that.

So, then this could be what is wanted to work with wind and solar power. If you hat solar panels, then imagine solar thermal. In all cases You could also dump heat from excess energy into the wells also.

I think it looks pretty good.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-09-12 14:32:59)

Void · 2024-09-09 07:23:25

I sort of did not mention liquid air in the first post too much. But it is an option.

Here are a couple of things that could go along with this topic:

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VMSOVR
https://www.orrick.com/en/News/2024/06/ … ge-Project
Quote:

Revolutionising Energy Storage: Highview Power Raises £300 million for UK Liquid Air Energy Storage Project from Mosaic Capital, UKIB, Centrica and Partners
2 minute read | June.17.2024

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/n … bf35&ei=65
Quote:

New air-based refrigeration system developed to replace harmful refrigerants
Story by Science X staff • 1w • 3 min read

This is perhaps not directly air related, but it shows that heat pumps can create some types of industrial heat: https://www.sintef.no/en/latest-news/20 … pump-ever/
Quote:

Developing the world’s ‘hottest’ heat pump ever

So, above ground storage in tanks is available for both hot and cold, and also Liquid or compressed air can be stored in above ground tanks, or in underground cavities, such as salt domes.

These processes might be enhanced by the use of geothermal, and I think then they do not require top level geothermal but lesser types could be used to a benefit.

Moving down two posts..................................

Last edited by Void (2024-09-09 07:42:23)

tahanson43206 · 2024-09-09 07:28:02

For Void...

This is not a criticism...

I am genuinely mystified....

You had a topic with 400 posts, and created a new one that appears to be identical....

Did you forget you had the older one? Or did you just get tired of it?

Geothermal or Geothermal Battery, Air Battery by Void
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 1 Today 07:23:25 by Void
Sticky: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23) by Void [ 1 2 3 … 17 ]
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 400 2024-08-27 10:32:03 by Void

(th)

Void · 2024-09-09 07:34:21

Yes, and the critical difference is that I am coupling Thermal Air methods with geothermal such as Eavor might use.

Perhaps I can retitle it to more emphasize the use of air related thermal systems, but for now think of it as using both geothermal and air thermal and air pressure to create a battery system. Because geothermal is involved the output of the battery system may in some cases be bigger than what was input.

It seems reasonable to me that if you may try to make industrial heat from a heat pump, then a "Waste" output could be cold, as your interest was heat for industry.

But you could then put that cold waste to a good purpose in generating compressed or even liquid air.

Then you could use geothermal to expand that air to run in a turbine to supply electricity when intermittent energy is less produced by things like solar and wind.

A nice thing about geothermal proper is that it can recharge itself when not being tapped.

Getting some tea............

An interesting feature of geothermal as well, could be if you ran the very hot heat pump at capacity when energy was available, making full use of its potential. You might then extract from a liquid source such as a body of water, or the geothermal well itself. The heated output could then not only feed the industrial process, but then inject more heat into the well. But of course, if the output of the geothermal is higher than that you would not take that path.

The point is there are many branches of possibility when adding these systems together.

For hotter geothermal wells you might instead use a resistance heater to make very hot fluids and inject them back into the well. Even though geothermal may be self-charging over idle time, you may also push more heat into such a thing, when you have extra intermittent energy. I think that electric heating of hot water is rather a low-tech method with good results possible.

But then if you have a tank of liquid air and very hot geothermal, then you would not be expanding the fluids of the well, but the air itself to run though a turbine.

Geothermal and Heat Pump and Air Battery technologies are improving or are expected to, and joining them into systems may produce some good results.

If you want a revision of this topic or moving materials or deletion, I guess those are options.

But I think this could be OK as far as I am concerned.

Pending Ending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-09 07:59:12)

tahanson43206 · 2024-09-09 20:14:50

For Void re new topic...

Void, I think adding geothermal energy is overkill...

You gave us a new topic that would stand on it's own, if you were to allow it to do so.

I went out and looked for the original article from 2008, and it reported on a procedure to increase the efficiency of a compressed air energy storage system.

The key is to save the heat that occurs as the air is compressed, although the details of how that would be done were not provided.

There was a bit of hand waving, and the heat was magically stored in some magic material.

Then, when the heat is needed to heat that air to be drawn from storage, voila! It is magically provided from the magical store.

***
For you and your idea of using a thermal energy well....

Please note that humans have injected water (brine) into underground spaces from which oil has been removed and some of these adventures have caused earthquakes.

Your idea of pumping gas into a geothermal cavity is interesting, because the gas would naturally look for escape routes and some of the time it would find such a route. It might be under someone's house, and your operation would be of intense interest all of a sudden.

I think that if you were to decide to convert this topic to one dedicated to CAES it would be beneficial to the forum, and it might help to enlighten some of our readers.

(th)

Void · 2024-09-09 23:41:53

(th), If you will read post #1, as shown here, I can demonstrate that I was more then flexible in trying to accommodate the desires of moderators here:

Moderators, kill or move this as you may wish.
Watching other posts from the other members I sort of have come to realize that in dealing with Air Batteries, the use of geothermal heat could substitute for the need to boil a liquid. This then could perhaps use a lower quality of geothermal.
I think that this could work well with intermittent energy sources.
There may be some interesting associated processes. For instance, to heat a building you perhaps could compress air, and then store the compressed air. Then when you needed electricity you could expand that stored air using geothermal heat to run a turbine.

I feel that the emerging processes of 1) Geothermal/Geo Storage 2) Compressed or Liquid Air Battery 3) High temperature heat pumps, and also the Korean refrigeration method, suggest that there could be a whole field of development in integrating such systems. I only suggested some possibilities and do not want to go into a Cul Du Sack, in grabbing onto only one such possibility. I am very excited by this nothing you have posed interferes with that.

I think that you too soon pose yourself as authoritative in this.

A more correct and polite thing for you to have done is to inquire about things you do not understand.

I will work with some quotes from your posts in this topic:
Here we go, unfortunately:

Void, I think adding geothermal energy is overkill...

Here you should have asked why you think it is overkill. Perhaps I would attempt to explain better.

I went out and looked for the original article from 2008, and it reported on a procedure to increase the efficiency of a compressed air energy storage system.
The key is to save the heat that occurs as the air is compressed, although the details of how that would be done were not provided.
There was a bit of hand waving, and the heat was magically stored in some magic material.
Then, when the heat is needed to heat that air to be drawn from storage, voila! It is magically provided from the magical store.

That does not entirely make sense. I have told you that the heat to expand the air could come from the geothermal well. I put some articles in as support, perhaps you may need to read all of them.

For you and your idea of using a thermal energy well....
Please note that humans have injected water (brine) into underground spaces from which oil has been removed and some of these adventures have caused earthquakes.

Actually, I never mentioned fracking or injection of brine under high pressure. I will apparently need to explain what causes the earthquakes, as you want this web site to be good to teach. Fracking does not cause the Earthquakes as a rule. But when Shale Oil is pulled out, a whole lot of brine also comes out. It is not suitable to dump into the water table, so they drill a deep well and inject the water into the rocks. If there is a fault in the rock as I think has happened in Oklahoma on occasion, you may well get an earthquake as that may lubricate the rocks and release pent up earthquake energy.

Again, I have not mentioned fracking for geothermal wells (Yet). I did mention Eavor wells which do not use fracking.

Your idea of pumping gas into a geothermal cavity is interesting, because the gas would naturally look for escape routes and some of the time it would find such a route. It might be under someone's house, and your operation would be of intense interest all of a sudden.

I did not suggest pumping gas into a geothermal cavity, but it might not always entirely be out of the question. Perhaps you are confused. I did speculate on something like that in another topic. But I realized that indeed high pressure air might not be a good thing in a geothermal well. (But as a lower gas pressure device it might make an interesting short term battery for load leveling grids.

I did mention Salt Domes to store air as a passing idea. Lets have a look at underground air storage.
https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 … nd%20hours. Quote:

Exploring the concept of compressed air energy storage (CAES)
in lined rock caverns at shallow depth:
A modeling study of air tightness and energy balance
Hyung-Mok Kim1
, Jonny Rutqvist2
, Dong-Woo Ryu1
, Choon Sunwoo1
, Won-Kyong Song1
1
Korea Institute of Geoscience and Mineral Resources (KIGAM), Daejeon, 305-350 Korea
2
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL), Berkeley, CA 94720 U.S.A.
September 28, 2011

Salt Domes: https://www.power-technology.com/featur … or-the-us/ Quote:

How salt caverns could transform renewable energy storage for the US

So, lets just consider a system built around a compressed air Salt Dome and a Geothermal Well.
Using intermittent energy, then you may compress air into the Salt Dome when excess electricity is available.
This is a sort of "Battery" some people would say.
But if you have an Eavor Geothermal well, when you are not using it, it self restores its heat. So, in a sense it is a self charging battery.

Then when you need it, you can use the heat of the geothermal source to help in the expansion of the air that is to turn a turbine. I think that you would not necessarily need an extremely hot geothermal well for this to pay off. So, you may not have as much for drilling costs.

So, that could be a basic system. If you were not using compressed air then you might use liquid air instead.

While a geothermal well is self-charging while left not under heavy load, you might also push heat into the well at times when intermittent energy was strongly available to an excess.

Thanks for introducing me to Imgur (th):

In the above diagram, when you are using power from an intermittent energy source such as wind or solar, then you may have a maximum capacity to produce industrial heat. But if your industrial process does not require its maximum production then that could be diverted to store in the geothermal well, at the input side, (Not the output side).

I do have a history in process control, and worked in industrial settings, so I do not come to these things in total ignorance.

Practical experience is not without merit. When I left the mines and interviewed for my next job, they did not want to know anything about my schooling. They just wanted to know what I worked on and did in the mining operations.

I do not count myself as fabulous but rather being able to play in the game at some level that was considered worthwhile. I was not fired, I retired.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-10 00:36:30)

Void · 2024-09-11 11:51:37

I am a little short on time, which may be a blessing to some.

I am thinking about vibrations in matter. How it may be possible to move them about with a heat pump or refrigeration.

I am thinking again about Mars. Some or much of this may be adaptable to Mars.

While on Mars, I think it would be wise to have a nuclear fission "Heart" in the power networks, I also wonder about simple vibration collection methods.

Applying K.I.S.S. to appropriating them. I think that a nuclear greenhouse with Geo-Storage, might seem to fit this notion.

For Earth it might not be as important to keep the nuclear at the center of things.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-11 11:54:53)

Void · 2024-09-11 19:56:38

Continuing from the previous post, a greenhouse has a heating that is somewhat time appropriate to electricity from solar panels. So, on Mars, a greenhouse could generate daytime heat sufficient to be collected with a heat pump and the output from that heat pump could be up to 180 degrees C per todays technology. Vibrations from the fluids in the greenhouse might be moved to a Geo Storage method.

If this were to be a place for simple life to grow such as Algae or Cyanobacteria, then very extreme conditions might be tolerated. Not as severe as on the Martian surface, but of course not as friendly as typical farms on Earth.

While some do not like solar panels for Mars, then nuclear could be considered. A greenhouse even so would be a relatively low tech method to collect vibrations from Photons, and then of course the heat pump system would be significant technology. But it might be powered by Nuclear.

Doing this you would have the nuclear to get though dust storms, but you would not bypass the good that sunlight could do for you. If geothermal wells were created then the amount of heat that could be stored would be significant. 180 degrees C is probably valuable on Mars. More so than on Earth.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-11 20:01:40)

Void · 2024-09-12 08:09:24

I am interested in adapting this to Mars: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 70#p226470
Quote:

Isaac Arthur has provided some new entertainment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DyNeWloBss
Quote:
The Cities of Mars
Isaac Arthur
790K subscribers
Join
Returning to post #1786:
So, adapted to Mars, sausage shaped bladders floating on a very heavy brine, may have merit.
Very Salty water at a temperature of -2 degrees C, might work for the light blue in the diagram.
A dome might be put over that water filled basin. Ice will occur at times perhaps, but perhaps can be avoided.
Don Juan pond may stay liquid even in winter in Antarctica: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_ … 0a%20small Quote:
With a salinity level of 33.8%, Don Juan Pond is the saltiest of the Antarctic lakes.[1][2] This salinity causes significant freezing-point depression, allowing the pond to remain liquid even at temperatures as low as −50 °C (−58 °F).
So, it might be desired to keep it warmer than that if possible. Say -2 degrees C.
Vapor Pressure Calculator: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
The calculated vapor pressure is then perhaps 5.2256 mbar. So very close to Martian atmospheric pressure on average on the surface.
The Sausage Shaped Bladders floating on this water, could have conditions within them that would be hospitable to some types of life, some maybe growing "Crops". They could probably be sufficiently pressurized for that.
The Bladders might be periodically moved to a long tunnel that could be pressurized.
While the diagram suggests solar panel, it is not mandated that they would be on the bladders in this case.
The Bladders may collect solar heat, and heat pumps may extract the vibrations and send them to a thermal reservoir.
Ending Pending

While I agree that Nuclear is very much wanted, there is no particular reason to ignore the solar generated vibrations that could be harvested from the Mars environment.

It is hard to imagine that Mars would ever have to much for energy resources to use.

Although a troublesome fluid to use the brine in the domed over lake could serve as a radiator for nuclear reactors.
Water vapor evaporating may condense on the dome, and perhaps flow down for collection, if the pressure in the lake covering dome were a little bit higher than Martian atmospheric pressure.

Even if all that could grow in the bladders was algae, or cyanobacteria, that could be a very useful resource, and you could synthesize things from that and also grow mushrooms in the materials if they are extracted.

Ending Pending

Salt Domes may exist on Mars, and geothermal wells might also be made, to store and extract heat <> for use.

Here are materials seen before: https://oilonmars.blogspot.com/#:~:text … e%20of%20a
Quote:

Within the collapse alcove of the giant Hebes Mensa salt dome on Mars, there is a feature called the "Oil Spill" (Adams et al., 2009). According to these researchers the fluid consists of liquid brines that have been coloured black by dark dust particles. However, - this cannot be true.

Don't worry, I am not going to push the notion of hydrocarbons on Mars, because it is not a point I am currently interested in. I am however interested in Salt Domes.

This article suggests that liquid phase water may have existed for a long time on Mars: https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/larg … 20deposits Quote:

Large-Scale Liquid Water Existed on Mars Much Longer than Suspected
January 26, 2022

So, perhaps Salt Domes may be found and used as a resource.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-12 08:29:21)

Void · 2024-09-12 14:30:28

I like this it mentions Eavor, and also a term new to me "Geo Exchange": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q--CWdPz91Q
Quote:

384. Geothermal Rising - Big Breakthrough Coming
Green Energy Futures
50.8K subscribers

I will include Geo Exchange into the title.

They also mention heat pumps that apparently work down to -35 degrees C.

Ending Pending

Another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rguJPPWAJr8
Quote:

Stanford Energy Seminar | Enhanced Geothermal Systems: Are We There Yet?
Stanford ENERGY

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-12 14:38:06)

Void · 2024-09-13 12:40:34

Other members are working on this, https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10883 , as for this post up to their post #3 in that topic.

I had recalled that the Italians and Europeans had been working on a CO2 process as well, and in a further look, I found information I value.

I don't regard this as a competition, but a sort of cooperation at a distance. Having more than one topic allows different paths of development which may be valuable.

Here is a wiki about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compresse … gy_storage
Quote:

Process
A 100MWh store requires about 2000 tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2). At the start of the process, CO2 gas is stored at atmospheric pressure in a large expandable fabric container, like those used to store biogas, housed within an inflatable protective dome.
To store energy, the gaseous CO2 is compressed to around 70 bar, which heats it to around 400 °C. Passing it through a heat exchanger and a thermal store cools the supercritical carbon dioxide gas enough to liquify it. The liquid CO2 can be stored in this state indefinitely in pressurised cylinders.
When energy is required, the CO2 is passed back through the heat exchanger, where it is warmed by recovering heat from the heatstore and reverts to high-pressure gas. The gas is used to drive a turbine to generate electricity as it passes back into the low pressure store, completing the closed cycle. [2][3]

I am wondering if this could be done on the Moon, and if perhaps instead Sulfur Dioxide might be used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide

But it might not be that expensive to import Carbon, as long as the produced CO2 would be recycled over and over again.

The Moon offers the cycling thermal conditions that might be of use.

Although much surface rock on the Moon is highly fractured, perhaps even so wells could be drilled that might allow containment. But then perhaps Lava Tubes might be of some use.

I imagine that if the device is competitive on Earth, it will be developed much more over time.
Having something that pays off of Earth may make it much easier to establish on other worlds: https://electrek.co/2022/06/28/worlds-f … 2-battery/ Quote:

The world’s first CO2 battery for long-duration energy storage is being commercialized [update]
Avatar for Michelle Lewis
Michelle Lewis
| Jun 28 2022 - 8:31 am PT

Ending Pending

I might wonder about geothermal on Mars using CO2. It gets close to being frozen in the Permafrost though, maybe it would work near the equator. But if the process were to involve Geo Exchange, pushing 400 degree C CO2 in (If a rupture could be avoided) would heat things up in a hurry.

Then it might convert to a liquid and then if deep enough be heated up again.

I don't have a strong understanding just at this time, so I will rest on it.

As for such a thing on the Earth, I just don't know. Just imagine compressing 400 degrees C CO2 into a salt dome. Again, I don't know what is practical. But in that case instead of venting the CO2, you might circulate it to a heat exchanger to boil a different fluid such as water, or Liquid air.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-13 13:13:39)

Void · 2024-09-16 09:18:05

I thought this would fit nicely in here. They make comparisons to other storage devices such as batteries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g7wlLVr4So Quote:

Uncovering SAND-Made Battery with 5 Hidden Features You NEVER HEARD!
TESLA CAR WORLD
167K

Post #6 ( https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 22#p226422 )discusses this:

So, I think that these sand batteries could fit well into this sort of process.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-16 09:23:51)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2024-09-08 18:48:22

Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#2 2024-09-09 07:23:25

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#3 2024-09-09 07:28:02

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#4 2024-09-09 07:34:21

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#5 2024-09-09 20:14:50

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#6 2024-09-09 23:41:53

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#7 2024-09-11 11:51:37

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#8 2024-09-11 19:56:38

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#9 2024-09-12 08:09:24

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#10 2024-09-12 14:30:28

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#11 2024-09-13 12:40:34

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

#12 2024-09-16 09:18:05

Re: Geothermal or Geo-Exchange Battery, Air Battery, Heat Pumps.

Board footer