New Mars Forums

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re login error .... you may not read Houekeeping, so I thought I might be better advised to post this reply here..l.

For Calliban re #3551

Thank you for reporting this problem!

It is possible for you to test the new updated forum software.

Your ID and password are the same, since this is a cloned database, running the updated software.

I would ** really ** appreciate your testing your regular browser with the clone.

The address of the clone is: http://40.75.112.55/forums/FluxBB/index.php

You have already tested the alternative softwre, phpBB3.

If you have time and want to confirm what I expect,you can use: http://40.75.112.55/phpBB3/index.php

Just FYI ... the problem may have to do with a cookie that FluxBB creates when you log in.  The idea is to try to prevent hackers from gaining access to the system, so a cookie is used to try to confirm you are you and not someone from another country pretending to be you.

***
For Void .... thanks for picking up on the problem and for offering an interesting solution.

(th)

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re interesting post in SSTO Mars and Back topic...

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 27#p223527

The RobertDyck Large Ship concept would operate between LEO and LMO.  It would never enter an atmosphere of any body.

I discount RobertDyck's fascination with aerobraking.  The Large Ship could never be allowed to approach that close to any solar system body.

GW Johnson has done studies of a variety of propulsion methods to carry out Earth/Mars missions with large vessels.  However, his studies stopped at the level of NERVA, which is a proven design.

Your description of an advanced propulsion system using nuclear energy might result in interesting predictions, if you were able to (somehow) persuade GW to consider it.

I am willing to try to interest him in your work.

To help to get the project started, I would like to invite you to think about how the propulsion system you've been describing might work in the Large Ship context. You won't have to search far to find the Large Ship documentation in the forum archive.

It is possible we might want to create a new topic dedicated to the LEO / LMO exchange.

You will find that GW has considered Space Tugs to assist large vessels like Large Ship, so they don't have to carry all the propulsion equipment.

Space Tugs at both ends would facilitate efficient transfer of goods and passengers, and reduce the burden on the vessels making the trip.

It seems to me that your propulsion concept would be idea for very large, very powerful space tugs such as GW described.

All of GW's work is published with links from this forum.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re new advanced propulsion ...

GW Johnson has not been following your work closely.  He is aware of discussion about advanced propulsion on the forum, but hasn't been following the details closely.

I'd like to see collaboration between you (nuclear physics) and GW (rocket science) so that GW understands how the system you've been talking about world work

The scenario where I see this system as most attractive is for the Space Tugs that GW has described for the LEO/LMO trade.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re asteroid bag idea ...

When yuu first joined the forum, you posted about capturing an asteroid in a bag (as I recall... it's been a while)...

Here is one of Void's posts with a link to just such a concept.... http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 97#p223597

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re Thorium ....

The article at the link below seems a bit garbled .... Is the Transmutex idea just dealing with Thorium?

Does it make any sense to transmute Thorium ahead of using it in a reactor?

https://interestingengineering.com/inno … 27.05.24_1

Breakthrough Swiss tech cuts 80% of radioactive waste in nuclear plants
Radioactivity of nuclear waste could be reduced from thousands of years to less than 500 years.

Updated: May 27, 2024 07:46 AM EST

Ameya Paleja

15 hours ago
3 minutes
0

Breakthrough Swiss tech cuts 80% of radioactive waste in nuclear plants
The Transmutex reactor

Franklin Servan-Schreiber/Transmutex

A former CERN scientist working at the private nuclear fission company Transmutex has developed a new approach that could radically cut down the radioactivity of nuclear waste by as much as 80 percent.

Based in Switzerland, Transmutex’s technology was reviewed over several months by Nagra, the Swiss national body that manages nuclear waste, which also arrived at this estimate.

While the operational safety of nuclear fission reactors has often been the focus of attention, the safety of the spent fuel requires more attention. Nuclear fission fuel remains radioactive for hundreds of thousands of years, long after the energy extracted from it is used up.

As countries look for ways to move away from fossil fuels, nuclear fission technology is poised for a comeback. At COP28 last year, 20 nations decided to triple their nuclear energy capacity in the next 25 years but plans for long-term storage of spent fuel have yet to be drawn up.

Interesting Engineering has previously reported Finland’s plans to store nuclear fuel one thousand feet below sea level for over 100,000 years.

However, with countries ramping up nuclear energy production, more such facilities are required unless technological breakthroughs such as Transmutex’s are adopted.

What is Transmutex’s technology?

As its name suggests, Transmutex relies on the transmutation of elements—the conversion of an element into its isotope or another element altogether. Technically speaking, this is the same principle that alchemists attempted to apply in the past to turn metals into gold.

Where the alchemists failed, former scientists from CERN have been able to succeed. Using a particle accelerator, the researchers propose using a slightly radioactive element such as thorium and transmuting it into an isotope of uranium.

The accelerator is connected to a nuclear fission plant, where the newly generated uranium can be processed immediately. However, unlike its uranium counterpart, which is used in nuclear power plants today, this uranium does not produce plutonium or other highly radioactive waste.

The technology is the brainchild of Carlo Rubbia, the former director-general of the physics laboratory at CERN.

Hurdles in the path

While Rubbia might have had access to a particle accelerator at his old workplace, nuclear energy plants do not have the same luxuries. Building a particle accelerator near each plant can be quite expensive, considering that CERN spent nearly US$5 billion to deliver the Large Hadron Collider.

The other challenge is the opposition to nuclear technology itself. Interesting Engineering has previously reported how Germany phased off its nuclear power plants. Switzerland, too, has similar plans for its four existing nuclear power production facilities.

If the government is convinced, Transmutex’s technology could be a lifesaver for these plants. Transmutex has raised private funding for its technology, but Nagra’s assessment is also a major boost.

According to the Swiss national body, Transmutex’s technology could help reduce the volume of nuclear waste generated by 80 percent and reduce the time it remains radioactive to less than 500 years. More importantly, the technology could also be applied to 99 percent of existing nuclear waste.

With regard to operational safety, a Transmutex-powered nuclear facility could also be shut down in two milliseconds, an unprecedented measure in fission tech, a company statement added.

(th)

Calliban

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

They are talking about using a spallation neutron source to transmute 232Th into 233U, which is a fissile fuel that can be consumed within light water nuclear reactors.  233U needs to absorb a lot more neutrons to build up heavy transuranics like plutonium, americium and curium, because it has a smaller atomic number than 238U.  So spent throrium based fuel will contain much smaller volumes of these isotopes than uranium based fuels.

Their idea would work, but there are two problems.  Firstly, the spallation source is driven by a particle accelerator.  This will consume a lot of power, which will eat a lot of the power produced by the reactors.  The second problem is thorium targets that come out of the spallation source will contain fission products, as some of the bred 233U will fission within the spallation neutrons.  This will complicate handling the material and fabricating fuel out of it, because fission products are beta-gamma emitters.

I think people tie themselves in knots over nuclear waste and lose perspective.  The Earth's crust is full of uranium and thorium and their radioactive daughter products.  They are present in far greater volume than all of the spent fuel we have generated to date.  Some of these end up decaying into radon, which we breath.  Some ends up in our food and water.  This contributes to natural background dose that we all recieve.  In hundreds of thousands of years, some of the actinides from stored waste may make a contribution to background dose for future humans.  How much do we really need to spend to avoid a minor increase in background dose to some future humans millenia into the future?  People imagine this to be a much bigger issue than it really is.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-05-28 02:43:36)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Calliban

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From: Northern England, UK

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Posts: 3,702

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

To put the issue of long lived actinides into perspective.  The natural radioactivity of basalt rock averages 237Bq/kg.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … lf_of_Aden

The amount of radioactivity contained in Earth's crust to a depth of 1km, is therefore 3.6E23Bq.  That is the same level of radioactivity as 157 million tonnes of Plutonium-239.  A 1GWe nuclear reactor discharges about 0.3 tonnes of plutonium isotopes each year.  The UK has about 200 tonnes of seperated reactor grade plutonium.

The oceans contain some 1-2E22Bq of radioactivity.  That is equivelent to 4.3 - 8.6 million tonnes of 239Pu.  A lot more than humanity has ever produced as waste or is ever likely to.  Even more activity is present in ocean sediments.

Nuclear power generation is currently producing 284Gw-yrs of electricity each year.  At this rate, we are producing plutonium at a rate of 85 tonnes per year in spent fuels.  Clearly, it will take a long time for human produced nuclear waste to rival the natural radioactivity that is present in Earth's rocks and oceans.  At present usage, manmade radioactivity might begin to rival natural radioactivity in several million years time.

With so much radioactivity present in Earth's rocks, one has to wonder why there is no public outcry and mass panic about radium, uranium and thorium contaminating the food and water supply?  Indeed, lefty green types are the primary consumers of mineral water, which contains a much higher concentration of radium, uranium and thorium than processed tap water.  Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-05-28 04:13:46)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re #106

Thank you for considering the idea of making Thorium into U233 using a particle accelerator.

It seems to me you might be looking at this idea with a bit more pessimism than is warranted.

On the other handle, I may be more hopeful than is warranted.

The use of a particle accelerator may indeed consume all the power that is produced.

I'd like to offer the suggestion this is actually a ** good ** thing if the output of the process is useful.

And the output of the process appears to be immensely useful...

The output of the process appears to be tritium, which is a key ingredient for (proposed) fusion.

People (who seem mad to me but perhaps they are cold sober) are proposing to harvest tritium from the Moon.

I'm hoping you might be willing to take another look at the particle accelerator idea, to see if it can produce copious amounts of tritium while covering it's own energy input requirements?   That sure does look (to my layperson's eye) like a win-win-win.

How would the energy cost of producing tritium this way compare to harvesting tritium from the Lunar regolith?

I'd also like to point out that tritium is a highly desirable isotope for power storage.

The forum archive contains a section in which the potential of tritium for delivery of electrical power to consumers is explored in depth. If I remember the discussion correctly, the tritium decays to helium which is a valuable element in it's own right.  The consumer would enjoy steady, reliable power for the half-life of tritium, and the energy storage device would be swapped out for a new one, and returned to the factory to harvest the helium.

In short, if I understand the potential of the particle acceleration correctly, it covers it's energy costs and delivers a valuable output which can be used immediately by billions of consumers who need reliable power for home and business purposes, and longer term for fusion.

A related concern is how difficult it is to remove the tritium from the reactor?  That process may difficult? energy costly?

Is there anything else that comes out of the process that is useful?

Follow up:
We have three topics containing the word "tritium" in the title:

Tritium to Helium-3 Nuclear Battery by tahanson43206
Science, Technology, and Astronomy    20    2024-01-31 19:09:13 by SpaceNut
Fission Reactor Design to produce Tritium via Desalination Market by tahanson43206
Science, Technology, and Astronomy    17    2024-01-31 06:33:06 by Calliban
Fusion Reactor Design: Produce Tritium - Global Energy Storage Market by tahanson43206
Science, Technology, and Astronomy    3    2024-01-03 15:17:28 by tahanson43206

(th)

Calliban

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From: Northern England, UK

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

TH, the wiki reference below tells you a bit more about nuclear spallation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spallation

Spallation can provide a very intense neutron source.  The problem is that each spallation neutron needs about 30MeV of energy to produce it.  And the accelerator will not be 100% efficient.  Fission will yield some 200MeV of energy, about 180MeV of which is captured as useful heat.  Lightwater reactors convert about one third of thermal energy into electrical energy - say 60MeV per fission.  The problem with using a spallation source to breed fissile fuel is that the accelerator will end up consuming about half of the electrical energy that is produced by the downstream reactors.

One thing that could improve the energetics of the process is to use 233U as the spallation target, with a thorium shell surrounding it.  By doing this, a portion of the spallation neutrons will cause fission in the 233U.  Each fission will yield 2.5 neutrons on average.  So this reduces the energy cost of a neutron to 12MeV.  Assuming all neutrons are absorbed into thorium or uranium, the bred 233U should provide 5x more electrical energy than is needed to create it.  This is still quite an expensive way of making fissile fuel.  But it could work in principle.

Another option would be to build reduced moderation boiling water reactors with thorium blankets.  The experience with Shippingport tells us that it is possible to build light water reactors that will breed as much new fissile fuel as they need.  But the neutron economy is tight, with little room for losses.  So it isn't really possible for a light water thorium breeder to make enough excess fuel to start another reactor.  But with a fleet of these reactors, a spallation source could provide 233U for starter cores.  The energetics look a lot better in that scenario, as only the first load of fuel entering the reactor needs to be produced via spallation.  This is definitely something we could use on Mars.  But it requires a non-trivial amount of infrastructure.  It is something that we would start after the colonisation phase is well underway, with around 1 million people on Mars.  We might start mining native thorium at that point.  There would see to be enough energy in Martian thorium to sustain a human society until the sun swells up.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-05-28 07:15:09)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re #34

Thank you for your review/overview of the prospects for making fuel using spallation, with the accelerator option finding a small role.

This post is to thank you for the very interesting vision of a gradual population of the galaxy by sending suitable asteroids on a journey past the Sun to head out to remote stars.  The only detail I would offer to your vision is the observation that the flying mini-worlds need not be isolated from the rest of the humans in the multiple locations as your vision materializes.  A writer named Edward M. Lerner has published a novel called InterstellarNet, and I think there is at least one follow on book in a series.  While the writer makes up interesting fiction to entertain, he also describes how an interstellar radio network would function.

The time of flight of radio signals will ultimately total up to years, but the flood of information flowing from the Earth is such that all moving habitats will have more to read and watch and listen to than they have time for.  Plus, each such habitat can send their news and creativity to Earth, and to other moving habitats.

Edward Lerner proposes that commerce is possible in such a network, because each habitat is capable of original work that can be traded for other information of value.  Examples would include designs for machinery, or in advanced stages, new crops or other applications of genetics.

Obviously, each habitat needs a subpopulation devoted to checking incoming transmissions for mis-information.

In any case, your vision seems sound to me, and it certainly is as likely as any of the other long range travel plans that have been floated.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re Vertical Launch assist scenario...

In recent posts about the idea of assisting a space craft to launch, you and kbd512 seemed to be leaning toward an incline as the best way to give a space craft momentum.

I am looking forward to seeing the results of your joint development of that idea.

In the mean time, I'm hoping you might be willing to take at least a brief look at the vertical launch idea.  I persuaded ChatGPT4o to take a swing at the problem, and after some back and forth, I think the Python program to calculate LH2 and LOX consumption for a launch of this type is working reasonably well.

I have a couple of concerns ... the amount of fuel and oxidizer needed for the artillery style launch assist is greater than the amount planned for the vehicle itself.  This may be correct, because artillery is quite different from rocketry, but I'm not comfortable at this point, and would appreciate a second/third opinion.

The other concern is design of the actual lift mechanism. 

I've been thinking of a cylindrical barrel for the device, and a cylindrical sliding component similar to a hydraulic or pneumatic piston system.

Provision of fuel and oxidizer is a question. I've been thinking of storing fuel and oxidizer in container excavations along the path of the lift cylinder, so that as the base of the lift cylinder passes by, fuel and oxidizer are made available to the hot gas mixture.

Finally, the question of how to nandle end-of-lift maneuvers is a concern...

The best option would be for the lift cylinder to clear the launch tube, so that the hot gases could escape into the atmosphere. This would be superheated steam, so there should be a safety zone around the apparatus.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re kbd512 post in Vertical topic ...

I am hoping you will find time in the not too distant future to take a look at the creative thinking in kbd512's post about the Vertical Launch Assist system. 

There are too many ideas to discuss here, so I'll focus one that was literally "out of thin air" from my perspective ...

Can a ram jet operate at only the low hundreds of meters per second that 5 G's over 1 kilometer can provide?

The vehicle would be driving straight up through the densest section of the Earth's atmosphere.

I'll ask GW to take a look at the idea as well.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re ice as a way to store cold ...

To cool a 500sq.ft for 12 hours, we must store 35.2kWh of cold.  That is about 0.42m3 or 14.3cu.ft of ice.  I don't think it is out of the question to build an ice store that could keep a 2000 sq.ft house cool for days.  The cold air produced by an air expander could provide part of what is needed to recharge the store.  Or we could build a heat pump that sucks heat out of the store at a constant 0°C and dumps heat into an outside swimming pool at, say, 20-30°C.
If we assume a COP of about 5, the heat pump would draw about 600W if operating 24/7.  Let's assume it operates 8 hours aday on solar power.  A 10kWth (2kWe) heat pump, supplied by a 3kWe peak solar PV system should do the job.

Your description of an updated concept reminds me of the harvesting of ice during the winter in the Northern US in times past.

I asked Google for a brief summary of the history, and was surprised by the extent of the industry in the 1800's....

The ice harvest industry got its start in New England in the early 1800s. One businessman by the name of Frederick Tudor shipped ice around the world and as far away as Bombay, India. By the late 1880s, ice was the second largest export in the United States, behind cotton.Jan 21, 2019

Ice Harvesting | Three Rivers Park District

Three Rivers Park District
https://www.threeriversparks.org › blog › ice-harvesting

Modern equipment and practices might make this idea come to life once again, without the physical movement of ice.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re Large Scale compressed air energy storage

The examples you provided in recent posts in the Compressed Air topic are inspiring!

If you can find the time, and if the subject is of interest, please continue to develop your ideas for individual home owner energy storage.

The idea of a collective enterprise seems (to me at least) appropriate for a culture which is better suited for such ventures than the US.

The idea might well find an audience in the US, among builders who are tasked with design of large living complexes, of which there are a great many in the US.

However, I have the impression that the average person would prefer some energy independence if it were affordable and practical, which your designs seem to be.

In light of the recent reporting by kbd512, about the performance of a high end solar installation in Texas, it seems clear (again to me at least) that something more robust would find a market in the US, and perhaps in other countries, where independence from a grid is considered desirable.

The modest target I offer is 2 kw continuously for a week.  I like what I understand of your hybrid concept, which uses gas to store energy but liquid to perform the compression and energy conversion duties.  Terraformer has inquired about the possible use of water as an alternative to the liquid hydrocarbon fluid you had suggested.  There may be engineering reasons why the liquid hydrocarbon is a better choice.  The destructive effects of water are one reason that may apply, but that is just a guess on my part.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re recent post in Water Discovery topic...

Some time ago, you and PhotonBytes exchanged posts about his idea of excavating a part of the surface of Mars to take advantage of 1 bar of pressure at some depth.  I've forgotten what the depth was, but in a very recent post about the (possible) discovery of water in the crust of Mars, you offered the insight that hydrostatic pressure at the depth reported might cause water to be delivered up the drill tube to the surface.

I am wondering how the hydrostatic pressure you are estimating compares to the atmospheric pressure at the same depth.

A detail from the reports recently published about the water discovery indicate that the water will be in the form of a thick mud, and (probably) not water as we might think of it in a reservoir below ground.  I'm wondering how this circumstance might impact the drill operator who is seeking to harvest the water (assuming it is there).

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re air pressure at depth on Mars.

Thanks for providing figures for comparison.  It appears that dropping 11 km down doesn't buy much air pressure on Mars.

I'm still curious about your prediction that if a pipe is dropped into the (presumed) wet mud in the crust on Mars, that there would be pressure there that would lift the material up the pipe. One scientist predicted the material would be a thick mud like substance.

If that came up the pipe, it would need to be directed to containment facilities, where (I presume) some sort of mechanism could remove the water leaving solid material behind. That solid material might have value.

(th)

Calliban

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From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,702

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

I'm still curious about your prediction that if a pipe is dropped into the (presumed) wet mud in the crust on Mars, that there would be pressure there that would lift the material up the pipe. One scientist predicted the material would be a thick mud like substance.

If that came up the pipe, it would need to be directed to containment facilities, where (I presume) some sort of mechanism could remove the water leaving solid material behind. That solid material might have value.
(th)

That is entirely possible.  Without techtonics and with such a shallow geothermal gradient, it would be difficult to form metamorphic rocks.  And it is known that the Martian crust has higher porosity and lower density than Earth.
https://www.nasa.gov/missions/new-gravi … ous-crust/

I think the best solution would be to drill somewhere with solid basaltic bedrock.

---

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 18,855

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re #117

Thanks for evaluating the possible mud scenario. It may be a while before we see humans digging ** any ** sort of hole on Mars, after the failed European attempt.

***
FYI ... I just ordered a book by this author:

James Miller
James Miller profile image
About the author

I was born and brought up in Caithness in the north of Scotland. My family background and my early experiences of rural life, crofting and fishing have influenced experiences of rural life, crofting and fishing have influenced my writing and shaped my interests in history, political affairs and travel. I used to write regular columns in local newspapers, an experience that has helped to hone my prose style. I am suspicious of the idea of having a 'favourite' author but among those whom I admire - sometimes for very different reasons - are Robert Louis Stevenson, Dickens, Alan Furst and Patrick O'Brien.

The book is advertised as about Planetary Spacecraft Navigation. That is the subject matter I am hoping GW Johnson's course material will be able to cover.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re energy storage combining water with vacuum.

This is an innovative concept that I would expect from someone of Void's creativity. 

I'd like to see how the efficiency turns out.

However, I am wondering if there may be someone better equipped than yourself to build a test system and evaluate it, as the gent you showed us with his interesting vacuum energy storage system using air and mechanical energy transfer technology was able to do.

That gent showed 73% efficiency overall, which seems respectable when shown in comparison to other energy storage systems.

My guess is that your introduction of water as the working fluid might have the potential to allow for a higher percentage for the system overall, but only testing with very high quality components can provide a firm answer.

I note that your design (as shown in a recent post in the Green topic created by kbd512) has an added potential advantage, in that the water can be stored at a higher elevation than the vacuum chamber, so that the gravity of Earth can contribute to the energy store.

Details of your design that remain to be specified include:

1) the nature of the pump to remove water from the vacuum chamber and push it into the water reservoir

2) the nature of the turbine? to collect energy from moving water in order to deliver a useful form of energy (such as electricity)

Might it be possible to enlist the gent you showed us?

The tradeoff would be releasing the idea to the public.  You have begun the process of public exposure with publication in this very small out-of-the-mainstream forum.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re support for new topic....

Thanks for adding your original posts to the new topic.

Please augment your original idea with details about the elevation of the receiver water.  There should be a knowable benefit to elevation of the water that is to be removed from the vacuum chamber.

As a suggestion... please consider designing a system that uses one metric ton of water as the working fluid, and an elevation of 10 meters for the receiver container with respect to the vacuum chamber. The height of 10 meters is not out of the ordinary for a wind generator, so the tower to hold the wind device might also hold the pumped water.

What I'm hoping might come out of a serious study would be numbers that a builder can evaluate for a mass housing project.  The water used for the energy storage might be potable water that could be consumed if regular supply of water fails for some reason, at the expense of the energy store.

Update later .... since rammed earth or similar indigenous material is proposed for the load bearing part of the vacuum energy store, perhaps it makes sense to build the water elevation tower of the same material. And if ** that ** is done, then it is only a small leap to imagine the dwelling(s) to be made of the same material. The archive of this forum contains citations of an Iranian/American architect who has devoted a lifetime to studying, publicizing and practicing this kind of construction.

Update later:
Quote from a post to SpaceNut about an image he found of a design by:

For SpaceNut ... thank you for showing this impressive work by the Iranian-American architect Nader Khalili

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re CO2 as a popular and reoccurring topic ...

CO2 keeps coming up, and it seems to me there is never a definitive presentation of when to use CO2 for what.

I am under the impression liquid CO2 is a transitory state that is not naturally present anywhere.  Solid CO2 and gaseous CO2, in contrast, are universally present.

In one of the topics in the list below, you considered a report that liquid CO2 might exist in some quantity on Mars.

It seems to me that solid CO2 is and always has been far easier and more practical to work with than liquid.

Index» Search» Topics with posts containing 'co2'
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Topic    Forum    Replies    Last post

Strategic CO2 Reserve Establishment by kbd512
Science, Technology, and Astronomy    3    2024-04-08 09:49:27 by Calliban

CO2 Energy Storage System - Compressed Gas - Closed Loop by tahanson43206
Science, Technology, and Astronomy    8    2024-02-19 10:56:38 by SpaceNut

CO2 / Dry Ice Cleaning by kbd512
Science, Technology, and Astronomy    5    2023-12-31 14:23:47 by SpaceNut

Agriculture Study Mars Pure CO2 Greenhouse by tahanson43206 [ 1 2 3 ]
Science, Technology, and Astronomy    52    2023-12-30 17:03:00 by Mars_B4_Moon

Subsurface dry ice and liquid CO2 by Calliban
Exploration to Settlement Creation    5    2023-12-19 18:01:22 by Calliban

Cold CO2 powered vehicles by Calliban
Planetary transportation    13    2023-11-30 21:52:44 by SpaceNut

Lithium CO2 batteries by louis
Science, Technology, and Astronomy    6    2023-07-05 20:29:41 by SpaceNut

CO2 Sublimation Heat Engine by louis [ 1 2 ]
Life support systems    40    2022-09-13 20:09:53 by Mars_B4_Moon

Revisiting Supersonic CO2 Compressors for Mars EDL by kbd512
Human missions    11    2021-04-16 23:06:10 by SpaceNut

Solar Heliostat System with Molten Salt Bath, and Liquid CO2 Method. by Void [ 1 2 ]
Life support systems    25    2021-02-25 19:00:54 by SpaceNut

Solar Mirror CO2 to Oxygen Converter by Dook
Life support systems    10    2021-01-24 19:33:09 by SpaceNut

Liquid CO2 for clothes washing by Quaoar
Life support systems    14    2021-01-24 19:31:16 by SpaceNut

A method(s) to deal with CO2. by Void
Science, Technology, and Astronomy    1    2020-08-07 21:05:48 by Void

Tools not co2 air based more like hand or battery by SpaceNut
Life support systems    7    2020-01-06 10:38:18 by tahanson43206

CO2 traps on Mars by Antius
Terraformation    0    2017-06-26 09:03:08 by Antius

Water/CO2 NERVA for Mars by Quaoar
Interplanetary transportation    5    2014-01-03 13:35:37 by Quaoar

Is it possible for us to create a single topic  that would hold all the information we need to use CO2?
Can we organize such a topic so it is useful for consultation when we are trying to design a machine or a process?

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 18,855

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re treasure trove of scattered tidbits in the CO2 collection...

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 60#p162660

In the post above, you are talking to SpaceNut but the topic was created by Louis. Louis asked repeatedly for guidance on how to use dry ice in a practical system. 

I like the batch process you describe, and note the cautions about how strong the enclosure/boiler needs to be.

It seems to me the objections to use of solid fed into a boiler are reasonable  but solvable.

The boiler in a steam engine is under pressure, and water has to be pumped into the boiler against that pressure. The fire pit is separate from  and usually under the boiler, and pressure in the fire pit is usually ambient. On Mars, the fire pit would be replaced by a solar heated system of some kind, or nuclear thermal energy.

On Earth, ice could be fed into the boiler, by shaping the ice for the injector.  On Earth, there's never been a need for such an adaptation. Water in liquid form on Earth is easy to work with.  CO2 in liquid form on Mars (or anywhere) is difficult to work with. Why bother, when the solid form of CO2 is as easy to work with as coal on Earth.

Solid can be shaped as a rod, and that rod can be pushed into the boiler against the prevailing pressure.  It is an alternative to trying to work with liquid CO2 which requires special conditions to exist at all.   In a production/commercial environment, CO2 could be frozen in tubes for eventual delivery to a properly fitted boiler.  The power to inject the solid CO2 rods could be drawn from the boiler after it reaches sufficient pressure.   Prior to that, a starting pressure would be needed to inject the CO2 rods.

This reminds me of the use of compressed air to start the huge (ancient) gas piston engines at the Power Museum in Pennsylvania. I've mentioned this facility previously. It is a museum supported by volunteers, with a collection of gas and steam engines from the 1850's through about 1930.

http://www.coolspringpowermuseum.org/

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 18,855

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re design of a system to use rods of dry ice....

In thinking about your description of a boiler suitable for Louis' vision of a machine to take in dry ice and produce CO2 gas for applications, I've offered the idea of feeding rods of dry ice into a tubular feed system.

It occurs to me it might be possible to eliminate the middle man.... It might be possible to eliminate the chamber with all it's interlocks and other complex safety features.

If the tube into which the dry ice rod is fed is also the boiler, then the heat supplied by a suitable source will be applied to the tube containing the dry ice, and that ice will sublimate directly so that CO2 gas is delivered at the far end.

In many other posts scattered around the NewMars archive, you have pointed out the advantages of simple iron objects. The pressure that would build inside a tube as described above may exceed the capacity of simple iron structures, but I thought I'd ask.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 18,855

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re Geothermal site as Thermal Energy Store

This question comes to you with Void as a source.  Void created an entire topic to provide an alternative to Geothermal topics already in existence.  I am wondering if there might be something to Void's venture.

In the forum archive, there is at least one post in which you warn that thermal energy drawn from a well in the crust of the Earth will be exhausted due to the poor thermal conductivity of the rock.  In allowing Void's idea to perk on the back burner, I am hoping the resulting concept might make sense.

Can humans use the geothermal store in the crust to serve as a layer of "insulation" for very hot material that might be created as a result of investment of solar or wind energy?

It seems to me that if a very hot thermal store is placed in a massive heated insulator, thermal energy might flow into the rock, but the amount of that flow would be reduced by the combination of the existing thermal energy and the poor conductivity of the rock.

In other words, instead of drawing thermal energy from the Earth as is generally proposed, perhaps the Earth could be enlisted to serve as a thermal energy banker.  If this is possible, then the idea of pumping gas to store energy in compressed form might become practical, with efficiency improved by the low rate of loss to the environment.

Is there any way to assess the value of this concept?

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 18,855

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban .... this question comes from FriendOfQuark1 who lives in Texas, and has a more than passing knowledge of the oil industry.

I have tried to explain your prediction that if an entrepreneur pulls thermal energy out of a region of the Earth's crust near an oil head, whatever energy is removed will be replaced from the Earth's huge store of thermal energy, but the process will take time due to the poor thermal conductivity of the material at that depth.

I am basing this presentation upon my understanding from your numerous posts on the subject, so there may be differences between what I understand and what you actually predict.

FriendOfQuark1 was part of an organization that looked very seriously at geothermal energy mining during one of the oil shocks that have occurred in the decades. The company was dissuaded by CEO's of other companies that worried about oil profits.  From my perspective, that was a lost opportunity.

However, then is then and now is now, and perhaps a few of the players have retired.

In any case, if you find the topic of interest, and are willing to try to write for a finance audience instead of your usual audience of engineers, please explain your prediction for thermal energy flows in the kind of material likely to be found around abandoned oil wells in Texas.

I should clarify that we (or at least I) am assuming there is no water in the picture, because that would obviously change your prediction.

Update 2024/09/19 .... FriendOfQuark1 appears to have added your caution to his understanding of the thermal environment at the bottom of a given abandoned or low production well.  I am hoping that over time, this forum will attract posts about the Real Universe, and specifically about the reality that will provide either challenge or opportunity for an entrepreneur willing to bankroll an attempt to bring an abandoned or low value well into service either as a source of geothermal energy (if the at-wellhead conditions are favorable) or as a means of storing wind or solar energy.

While I have no way of knowing what your practical experience at well heads may be, your theoretical knowledge should be helpful for those thinking of venturing down this path.

(th)