The Moon

Void · 2024-08-25 17:48:32

Continuing with this:
I am not sure that SO2 would work well enough as a refrigerant to make Oxygen ice. I guess there are other ways though.
Also, I think that of course the device will need a rocket engine Nozzle.

This may matter: https://scitechdaily.com/dramatic-surge … tmosphere/
So, maybe it would be worthwhile to get Hydrogen from Venus some of it from HDO: Unraveling Venus’ Watery Past
Investigating the abundances of H2O and its deuterated counterpart HDO (isotopologues) reveals insights into Venus’ water history. It is generally accepted that Venus and Earth initially had a similar HDO/H2O ratio. However, the ratio observed in Venus’ bulk atmosphere (below 70 km) is 120 times higher, indicating significant deuterium enrichment over time.

I also think that for Venus Cloud cities might best be mostly in habited by robots. You would not need the farms in the clouds. But you could have food production in orbits. And you might have Fusion power for solar system purposes, which to some extent might yield Helium 3, if Helion gets their system working.

https://www.helionenergy.com/

There is this hope for Lunar water: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1pp1Nd Quote:

China produced large quantities of water using the Moon's soil
Story by Chris Smith • 9h • 3 min read

The scientists say they can produce about 51-76 kg (112 – 168 pounds) of water. That's more than a hundred 500ml (17.6 ounces) bottles of water, and it might be enough to cover the daily drinking water consumption of 50 people.
According to most recommendations, humans need to drink at least 2 liters (70.4 ounces) of water per day. It's unclear whether one ton of lunar soil would be enough. We get water from food sources, but those would also need water for processing.

I don't believe you would use the water only once, so the specs about this are not really as practical as the situation probably would be. The ISS can recycle 98% of the water used, and on the Moon larger facilities could do even better recycling, I think. But I want water ice for the propulsive method as well.

I found a video that I have some agreement with for some things: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR Quote:

Mars has a lot more water than we thought
YouTube
Kyplanet
7K views
1 day ago

This seems to be its source: https://www.youtube.com/@Kyplanet893

I want to watch this video about the Moon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhOtFt5qH-0
Quote:

The Moon ALSO has a lot more water than we thought
Kyplanet
31.9K subscribers

Well, I liked that one quite a bit. It may seem that we can have a Moon base near the equator, or near a skylight for a lava tube.

The way I look at it is that the emerging space technology may open everything inside of the asteroid belt, but at least the Moon, Venus and Mars, and some asteroids.

Flack is already coming from some of the greens about dust coming from satellites burning up in the atmosphere. Perhaps some of these people should be invited to be natural in Antarctica without clothing.

But that aside, it may be that we can couple the Moon to Venus.

Others may have other preferences, but I see Venus as a world to aerobrake into orbit of Heavy water, Carbon, and Nitrogen can come from it. (That is if it does not have life).

These could be converted into Heavy Ammonia, and Heavy Hydrocarbons, and Heavy wood perhaps.

I would think to have orbital habitats around Venus, to grow organic matter with Heavy Hydrogen in it.

Ammonia and Wood may be relatively easily transportable from Venus's orbit to the Moon. Good chances that the propulsion method could be solar in nature.

But now also if the device I have a picture of above can work, then these resources could be processed in an orbital base associated with the Moon. Some of the Material could be made into objects that could be sent to Venus and airbrake into orbit of it or even into it's atmosphere in some cases.

And of course, Mars/Phobos/Deimos and some asteroids could be in the loop as well.

Done

Not all of the Ammonia or hydrocarbons and wood would be heavy hydrogen, they would also have normal Hydrogen.

But the heavy hydrogen may be rather good for space travel, I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-25 18:37:45)

Void · 2024-08-26 08:02:02

One thing I failed to mention previously is that I do think that Kilo power reactors would be very good for startup of a robot City/Covered Road/Factory. Later solar could be expanded into, but of course any heat from a reactor could be very useful in a "Tin Shed", in the Lunar nighttime. Also of course the electricity from reactors.

I want to jump to another topic for this, because I am starting to involve an "Interworld" Scheme.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-26 08:03:06)

Calliban · 2024-08-26 16:17:45

Lox / Al hybrid rockets were discussed on the old Artemus discussion group. Yes it could be done and is one of the few entirely native propellant options that could be used on the moon. The exhaust tends to be aluminium rich. The effective mass ratio of the rocket is relatively low, due to the need for a relatively heavy liner.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-08-26 16:21:27)

Void · 2024-08-26 16:48:09

Thanks Calliban.

But I am hoping to add a pinch of water ice or Hydrocarbons, that would release Hydrogen and amp it up just a little bit.

And if the cargo "Is" the liner, then it is perhaps not as futile as it might seem.

Robot labor "May" approach infinite in quantity as per labor, so then my reasoning is that a low profit margin is still a profit margin, and worth it as long as the robots you use are appliances and not things that can suffer. I do care. If they would suffer, then I don't want it.

But most likely something with the intelligence of a bee could do most of the work, and they may feel fulfilled, I hope.

Done

Calliban · 2024-08-27 01:28:46

Void wrote:

Thanks Calliban.
But I am hoping to add a pinch of water ice or Hydrocarbons, that would release Hydrogen and amp it up just a little bit.
And if the cargo "Is" the liner, then it is perhaps not as futile as it might seem.
Robot labor "May" approach infinite in quantity as per labor, so then my reasoning is that a low profit margin is still a profit margin, and worth it as long as the robots you use are appliances and not things that can suffer. I do care. If they would suffer, then I don't want it.
But most likely something with the intelligence of a bee could do most of the work, and they may feel fulfilled, I hope.
Done

If we have access to abundant water ice and hydrocarbons, then a LOX/ Al hybrid rocket is pointless. LOX / H2 or LOX / CH4 are both superior propulsion options, in terms of Isp, mass ratio, safety and throttleability. The only reason the aluminium rocket was proposed at all for the moon, is that it is generally known to be lacking in the sort of lightweight volatiles that we use as rocket propellant.

That was the state of knowledge in the late 1990s and it remains the case today. The only water known to exist on the moon are small quantities of ice in difficult to access polar locations. There are also hydroxl ions derived from solar wind protons in the upper layers of regolith. There are small quantities (ppm) trapped in rocks that appear to have come from dissolved mantle gases. That is it as far as we know. There may be other sources of water, but we cannot confirm its existance. Engineering proceeds on the basis of what is known or at least reasonably assured. Hence the need to consider propellants that wouldn't normally be considered, like aluminium. It isn't considered because it is a good option, but because it is the only fuel that can be produced in abundance with a passable performance within the limits of what we understand lunar resources to be.

Void · 2024-08-27 01:47:42

Calliban,

I am glad that you are continuing with this, and not just dropping me off in the woods more or less.

If we say, we will think like engineers, and therefore we cannot know if Aluminum fuel is worth it, as we don't know as solid facts the amount of Hydrogen or even Hydrocarbons on the Moon, then we say we cannot do it since we do not know. If we cannot do it, then we can never know.

This seems like a mind recursive mind prison. If our hope is to send DEI candidates to the Moon to prance about in balloon suits, maybe we deserve that. (Don't get me wrong, I feel that various types of people should eventually visit and maybe work on the Moon, as they may have fine talents).

But if you start with the notion of a robot Citie(s) on the Moon, and if those have economic gain, then you may discover what the inventory of resources of the Moon are.

If you can count on using Aluminum/LOX if necessary, then you have a somewhat guaranteed success result. That is if the robot system can be effective and sufficiently efficient/productive.

If robots were found to be 100 times as productive as humans in balloon suits/vs life support burden, then we may be able to break out of the dogma from the 60's and 90'5.

But it seems as you have mentioned that the 90's gave some thought to it: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ant-source

Quote:

I was looking into whether there would be any way to source propellants from the moon itself in support of a future base and space stations in cis-lunar space. I found two documents exploring how aluminum in particular might work in combination with liquid oxygen.
One is by Wickman Spacecraft & Propulsion, who say:
An additional option available with aluminum is to suspend the aluminum powder in gelled LOX to form a monopropellant... As part of our research, we made a small rocket engine fueled by the LOX-aluminum monopropellant... The propellant tank was surrounded by a liquid nitrogen bath to keep the LOX from boiling off. The propellant feed lines ran through a liquid nitrogen bath on their way to the combustion chamber. A piston pushed against the propellant to feed the propellant into the rocket engine chamber. While the thrust was only about a pound, the engine was started and stopped several times without a flashback of the combustion flame front into the propellant tank.
The other is from a document called the Moon Miner's Manifesto, hosted on the website of the Artemis Society International:
Aluminum and oxygen alone will provide a specific impulse somewhat lower than most hydrocarbons. Brower et al. expect a value of 285 seconds... One [engine design] would be to pump aluminum powder as we do fluids. In this case, it will probably be necessary to use a carrier gas along with the powder to keep the aluminum grains from vacuum welding or sticking together from electrostatic forces... Another technique is a hybrid rocket engine using solid aluminum and liquid oxygen. A conceptual design for such an engine was proposed by Brower et al. Their design calls for a hexagonal array of aluminum bars the length of the combustion chamber. Liquid oxygen would be fed down the bars for regenerative cooling before reaching the flame at the bar tips. The engine could use oxygen and aluminum only, or could use tripropellant operation with hydrogen.

The reason to add Hydrogen in as a minority substance is that it expands so well, for the effort, it may provide sufficient payoff. But if Hydrogen is precious then you would not do that.

I do not particularly like their concepts, but rather favor an ALICE method. But this would be a Dry ALICE, perhaps with just a bit of wetness.

Other than that, separating a launch into "Dry Mass, Propellant, and Cargo" is wrong thinking for this, for the most part.

There is only "Delivered Product, and Propellant".

And in another step towards efficiency, it may be that "Burn Propulsion" may only need to go partway up the gravity well of the Moon.

We might find that we can expel mass by a more efficient means as the completion method for lifting the "Product to be Delivered".
Or we may even be able to propel on the Solar Wind or Photons.

A Neumann Drive might be a way, if it can be sized up, (I don't know if it can be). Or a ship mass driver that may expel magnetic powder or Oxygen.

If you have a refinery ship orbiting the Moon, a stable orbit can be a problem, but I understand some orbits are stable. But this refinery would be powered, so that it could continuously correct its orbit. The Product delivered would be a combination of Oxides, such as Aluminum Oxide, and also some metal parts I would expect.

Those might be rendered into propellants in flight from the "Delivered Product".

So, we keep feeding mass into the refinery, which likely runs on solar power of some kind, and it renders Metals and Oxygen.

The great hope then is to have a mass accumulation in the refinery.

If the refinery were at the altitude for Apollo, then the path Robot City>>>Orbital Refinery, may be somewhat easier than sending materials to "L5" say. But you may have to cope with the degrading of orbit problem. But degrading of Orbit is not all a problem, it may be self-cleaning, and so have some immunity from a Kessler Syndrome in Lunar Orbit.

Apollo 8: https://www.nasa.gov/missions/apollo/ap … evolutions
Quote:

118.82 miles

https://www.unitconverters.net/length/miles-to-km.htm
Quote:

Result: 118.82 mile = 191.22225408 kilometer

But I feel the refinery could orbit lower than that provided it had continuing mass input from the Moon.

If you had solar power plants in a much higher orbit they could beam microwave energy to the refinery.

This would give better power density than solar power I am supposing, because you could give it some intensity that you would not give for delivery to Earth.

But..............

It would all start with robots that can function on the Moon in somewhat protected conditions.

Microwave beams might help power the robots in their habitats, and even on the surface, perhaps microwaves would keep them warm in the deep cold of the night.

And some of the robot habitats could be "Turtle", that is mobile domes, that worker robots might inhabit.

Even in the dead of night, such a dome if it moved over the ground slowly might get heat from the ground. But I also said microwaves.

So, there might be moving habitats for robots and then also covered roadways/factories.

Early on robot development testing needed might be financed by science gains. Also, virtual reality tourism might test and do geology.

So, the start needs to establish robot technology for the Moon and its orbits. Then we see if the payoff is true and build on whatever payoff is real.

Done

Along the way we find out if the Hydrated Minerals that China has discovered are large scale: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ngNewsSerp
Quote:

China produced large quantities of water using the Moon's soil
Story by Chris Smith • 1d • 3 min read

Done

Query: "Hydrated Salts on the Moon, China"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Hydrated+ … cc=0&ghpl=

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-024-02306-8
Quote:

Abstract
The presence and distribution of water on the Moon are fundamental to our understanding of the Earth–Moon system. Despite extensive laboratory research and remote sensing explorations, the origin and chemical form of lunar water have remained elusive. In this study we present the discovery of a hydrated mineral, (NH4)MgCl3·6H2O, in lunar soil samples returned by the Chang’e-5 mission that contains approximately 41 wt% H2O. The mineral’s structure and composition closely resemble novograblenovite, a terrestrial fumarole mineral formed through the reaction of hot basalt with water-rich volcanic gases, and carnallite, an Earth evaporite mineral. We rule out terrestrial contamination or rocket exhaust as the origin of this hydrate on the basis of its chemical and isotopic compositions and formation conditions. The presence of ammonium indicates a more complex lunar degassing history and highlights its potential as a resource for lunar habitation. Our findings also suggest that water molecules can persist in sunlit areas of the Moon as hydrated salts, providing crucial constraints on the fugacity of water and ammonia vapour in lunar volcanic gases.

We need to find out the extent of Hydrated Minerals on the Moon, and of course ices.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-27 02:51:37)

Void · 2024-08-27 04:10:26

I could use some help with an Oxygen Steam Engine.

This would be for orbital use, not for launching from a world like the Moon, but maybe?

And it may well be prone to problems.

But let's say you heated a block of Alumina to near its melting point and were able to run LOX though it and out of an Alumina nizzle.
I think that would give you some propulsion. I know that Hydro Lox is perhaps 10,000 Degrees? Well the parts of the shuttle engine had to put up with at least 6000 degrees F.

Melting point of Alumina: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Aluminium … ca849af%22
Quote:

Aluminium oxide / Melting point
3761.6 °F
2072 °C

So, yes easy to put this down, but it could be used as an Oxygen Steam Thruster Rocket Propulsion.

You heat up a block of an Oxide to near melting point or even beyond melting point, and then run LOX though it. Yes I expect it would crumble, and making it do useful work it a vast question.

The point it that Oxygen is one of the more abundant substances, and where we may want reduced materials for structures built then as Josh has suggested you may have an excess of Oxygen.

So even though not a Beauty Queen, nevertheless there could be a case for using it for propulsion in this way, as the Oxide would store thermal energy. But running LOX though it to expand, looks very intimidating.

But you could heat such a block up in a well-insulated oven, perhaps in space. Then attach an Oxygen tank.

But yes lots of chances for ugly things to happen.

What temperature would Alumina decompose at? Somewhere beyond the melting point, but this would be even so much harder to work with. What would you hold liquid Alumina in?

Probably a mass driver tossing Oxygen is a better bet. But if you are transporting Alumina, then storing heat in it may be of some benefit along they way.

Done

An Alumina Block is then basically an Oxygen Tank and a lot of Aluminum, but combined to tolerate higher temperatures than either can handle individually.

I did give a post before this one that may be worth your viewing Calliban.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-27 04:30:21)

Void · 2024-08-27 10:25:09

Here is again an article about potential water extraction processes for the Moon: https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topst … 1a665&ei=6
Image Quote: AA1pt9Cr.img?w=534&h=353&m=6

Schematic of the lunar-soil-to-water process. Credit: NIMTE.
© ZME Science

Quote:

The researchers found that lunar ilmenite (FeTiO3), a specific mineral in the regolith, contains the highest concentration of hydrogen due to its unique structure.

Done

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmenite
Quote:

Ilmenite is a titanium-iron oxide mineral with the idealized formula FeTiO
3. It is a weakly magnetic black or steel-gray solid. Ilmenite is the most important ore of titanium[5] and the main source of titanium dioxide, which is used in paints, printing inks,[6] fabrics, plastics, paper, sunscreen, food and cosmetics.[7]

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-27 10:45:54)

Void · 2024-08-27 11:09:50

And interesting kind of robot for the Moon could be a "Dome Robot". I might have called it a Turtle, or some other shelled organism.

And I believe I have been down this path before.

A Dome Robot might be just that a dome on legs and perhaps wheels. Perhaps both.

Perhaps resembling an upper Turtle Shell on legs and/or wheels.

It may host "Sub-Robots" maybe even humanoid robots.

As it would travel it might leave paving stones behind it and also metal power lines, perhaps on top of the stones, maybe rails.

It may be able to extract volatile substances and bottle them, if they are in the soil.

Where this could be a power-hungry activity it might leave solar panels behind to feed electricity into the power lines/tracks.

But it might have one or more nuclear reactors with it as well, to be assure of a backup power supply should the power lines fail.

It may be able to deal with thermal differences of the day/night of the Moon, by various means, including insulation and also heating the material below it before sundown, perhaps with microwaves. Perhaps sintering a bunch of new bricks.

So then leaving a trail of processed materials behind it.

As there would be pavement and power, mobile robots could fetch some of the materials and move them to central locations.

Done

Blue Alchemist: https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … nar-future

Done

However, if power satellites could be established in stable orbits of the Moon, microwaves could be beamed down to the Dome Robot trains left behind, if antenna for that is built. So then in that case around the clock large scale energy for the Dome Robots, and greater productivity.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-27 11:23:45)

Void · 2024-08-27 11:33:23

A question from (th), gets a partial answer: https://www.usgs.gov/publications/estim … ution-moon Quote:

The abundance of ³He in the lunar regolith at a given location depends on surface maturity, the amount of solar wind fluence, and titanium content, because ilmenite (FeTiO3) retains helium much better than other major lunar minerals.

But that is Helium 3 and not Protons from the Solar Wind.

The rest of the answer is "I don't know, but am willing to learn".

I used the Query: "Solar Wind and (FeTiO3) on the Moon"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Solar+Win … 18&pc=U531

Here is one item related to formation of water: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-023-02081-y

It seems that the implantation of protons, is not strongly understood in results on the Moon.

And also, I suspect that some water is migratory, as China also suggests Hydrated Salts exist in at least one place.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-27 11:39:21)

Void · 2024-08-28 09:24:00

I am having a look at this: https://scitechdaily.com/moons-mystery- … nar-water/
Image Quote:

It is apparent that latitude matters and in that not all places are the same.

For a mobile dome perhaps a Horseshoe Crab suggest things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_crab
Image Quote:

It seems like there is some movement of molecules with Hydrogen in them on the Moon. Notions of where the water comes from are many, perhaps they are all true to some extent.

Atmosphere of the Moon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_the_Moon
Quote:

The average daytime abundances of the elements known to be present in the lunar atmosphere, in atoms per cubic centimeter, are as follows:
Argon: 20,000–100,000[11]
Helium: 5,000–30,000[11]
Neon: up to 20,000[11][12]
Sodium: 70
Potassium: 17
Hydrogen: fewer than 17
This yields approximately 80,000 total atoms per cubic centimeter, marginally higher than the quantity posited to exist in the atmosphere of Mercury.[10] While this greatly exceeds the density of the solar wind, which is usually on the order of just a few protons per cubic centimeter, it is virtually a vacuum in comparison with the atmosphere of the Earth.
The Moon may also have a tenuous "atmosphere" of electrostatically levitated dust. See Lunar soil for more details.

It looks like 3 noble gasses are at the top of the list.

The mobile dome's primary purpose would not be to collect mobile molecules but perhaps it could.

If it had adsorptive qualities on a surface, and perhaps used electrical effects, then it may be possible. I am also thinking of OH and H20.

If you were at a high latitude then sunlight would come in on the horizon, but one side of the dome would be in the shade. Perhaps the dome should have a crest of vertical solar panels on top of it.

The exosphere would be bouncing on the top of it, but things that could emerge from under it might bounce up. The ground could be stimulated with wavelengths of light such as U.V. or microwaves could be used to dislodge entrained molecules. A sweeping electron beam might do interesting things as well.

China has found some interesting ways water can be incorporated into Lunar materials: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180984844/

Some substances seem to attract and retain water and perhaps OH. Salts, and some titanium/iron compounds perhaps.

Molecules might be collected on a cold open capacitor plate, I think.

Anyway, the primary purpose of a mobile dome is not for the collection of such molecules, but it could be a secondary interest.

A protective cover for other robots is a big interest. And a place for construction.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-28 09:55:00)

Void · 2024-08-29 09:01:34

Isaac Arthur provided this today: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC
Quote:

Gardens Of The Moon
YouTube
Isaac Arthur
37 views
2 hours ago

He talks about plants and the 2 week Lunar nights in many places on the Moon. He suggests a minimal red light use in the night to keep the plants alive.

It quickly occurred to me that experiments might be done using chemicals that can grow algae, mushrooms and yeast in the dark. That can certainly be likely to work for those life forms. For vascular garden crops though, it only keeps them alive. But if you have 2 weeks of light and chemicals and then two weeks of dark with chemicals, can some vascular plants grow in a productive way?

While a few spots on the Moon have almost eternal sunlight, minerals will be all over the place, and also the best place to launch Lunar products from would be the Equator.

This article seems assistive: https://newatlas.com/science/artificial … -grow-dark
Quote:

This could expand agriculture to areas that don’t get enough sunlight, and even help feed future space explorers.

He mentions the Nitrogen problem, and suggests that eventually Nitrogen could be obtained from the Outer Solar System.

Bennu apparently has Nitrogen, Carbon, and Hydrogen, organic chemicals. That may be easier to access.
https://news.arizona.edu/news/bennu-hol … -wet-world Quote:

The asteroid's dust is rich in carbon and nitrogen, as well as organic compounds, all of which are essential components for life as we know it.

And so then "Dark Comets" may be of great interest: https://www.space.com/earth-water-dark-comets-impacts

It is my opinion that we should expand into space in many directions at once rather than to focus on one situation which does not have a satisfactory distribution of assets in itself alone.

Going to continue this elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 47#p226147

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-29 09:28:40)

Void · 2024-08-29 10:22:14

(th) asked about my statement in the previous post:

While a few spots on the Moon have almost eternal sunlight, minerals will be all over the place, and also the best place to launch Lunar products from would be the Equator.

My logic was that the Moon does spin 1 time per orbit of the Earth.

This article is about going to the Moon:
https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … -the-poles

I suppose we might also care about Mascon's and Mountains on the Moon if we would want to launch bulk cargo.
https://crateringearth.com/wp-content/u … -Earth.pdf

I am wondering if at times the near side of the Moon is pulled when the Earth and Sun are aligned above it. It would not be much, but could be of interest.

In exporting materials from the Moon, it could be that small factors could be worth factoring in.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-29 10:29:47)

Calliban · 2024-09-02 00:36:59

Re lunar water. Due to the tidal locking effect of Earth's gravity, the moon has almost no axial tilt and does not experience seasons. The further one goes from the equator, the colder the near subsurface gets and the more stable trapped hydroxl molecules will be. The Apollo missions all targeted the lunar mare on the near side within a narrow ~20° margin from the equator. It is entirely possible that the extreme dryness of the regolith in these locations is not representative of the entire surface. We will need to conduct more missions in more locations to know this for sure.

The lack of atmosphere on the moon should make it easier to store heat through the lunar night. Fine regolith is an excellent insulator. Heat stored in bedrock beneath the lunar surface, could be used to generate power during the lunar night.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-09-02 00:41:52)

Void · 2024-09-02 08:00:06

The Moon may be a bit better than the post Apollo story insisted on.

I am old enough to remember how many people older than me resented the space program, for religious and especially jealous economic reasons.

As I think you have suggested, the near side low latitudes seem likely to be more likely to be the worst case for volatiles on the Moon.

Per the Apollo Era, we had the cold war and Viet Nam continuation and aftermath. The baby boomers were restless and unpredictable but seeming to tend to a drift to leftist and irresponsible behaviors.

I have gained a respect for Nixon that I did not have when I was younger. But another member here has pointed out that Nixon was not happy to be a foster parent for the space child that Kennedy had helped to foster.

The emerging proponents of the service economy, did not like unruly Baby Boomers in great numbers, nor do their type ever think that industrial/technological people are more than plumbers. (I respect plumbers by the way).

The opportunity was presented to outsource work to places like China to drive a wedge into the "Red Block". And when the Soviet Union was dissolved, then as P. Zeihan has said, that dumped an empires worth of commodities onto the world market.

It was in the interests of the Servant Owners, to suppress technology and industry, and to suppress labor. So, the story that the Moon was bone dry, served their geopolitical interests. Although the Apollo samples did contain "Some" water, the story was given that it was believed that the water came from contamination of the samples after exposure to the Earth's environment.

And so then the space program could be hobbled to become a captive to pork and cream-puff actions.

You do not need to be concerned that I have radical notions. I expect that this is natural, we have two half's, one manipulates people for a living and the other manipulates objects for a living. It is natural even though very irritating.

It has been said that the Chief of a tribe is tending to have feminine qualities, even though male by defined gender.
Yin and Yang.

When Ronald Reagan promoted the "Service Economy", of course he was offering Baby Boomers to become Servants.
This is not all bad. Being of use is respectable. But any notion of allowing glorified plumbers to get into the country clubs, was quite undesirable(s).

With the oversupply of Baby Boomers, it was apparently decided to extract more wealth from the binary family nucleus, the typical Bigender bond of wedded couples. So, then feminism was promoted more and more, as they did not want more population from the baby boomers, but wanted to squeeze more service from them. So, now we will have lots of Cat Ladies, and bum men, and the offspring of non-technological men as our earnings from that move.

The Baby Boomers are long gone from procreation, and the aftermath of the policy is strangling our cultures of life with a low birth rate resulting from too many work hours extracted from adults.

My rough calculations say that a new technological age was born around 2015 +/- 10 years. Robots and perhaps self driving cars have shown up. Potential labor saving devices that may make it possible for technological/industrial inclined people to breed again.

But the people owners will not go down easy, I am thinking. It takes time.

But yes we need another look at the Moon, with robots and automation. Doing it primarily with humans will simply feed the dreams of the technological/industrial people into the pockets of the people owners.

If and when the resources to support human populations on the Moon appear, then human bases can be taken more seriously. Until then humans on the Moon have the greatest values as experimental adaptive learning.

We have always to be aware that the People Owners, Porksters, and Cream Puffs, have every interest in allowing a space effort to get to 90% to 95% of achievement, and then to break it, and organize a restart.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-02 08:31:45)

Void · 2024-09-02 20:08:59

Before I started on my rant in the previous post, I was thinking of what I consider to be an interesting experiment for the Moon.

Droplet Terrariums. A small lander with a water droplet terrarium, which could be lit by LED's.

No battery, just lighting up during the day, and freezing solid during the night.

Tardigrades and some hardy algae and cyanobacteria might hack it.

You would have to have circuits that would endure the repeated temperature fluctuations.

You then of course would want a way to examine the results periodically and perhaps to retrieve the sample for deeper examination.

I guess my interest would be in the mutations that might occur.

A less harsh version would land in a skylight where the temperatures would be milder and the radiation less, but of course there would be much less of a period of light during a monthly cycle.

Done

Void · 2024-09-03 21:07:25

I am thinking about Skylight gravity batteries, battery powered trains on the Moon, and catapults on those trains, perhaps with chemical rockets from Lunar materials. It is all silly Lunacy until you might do it.

Also thermal batteries in lava tubes.

So, not to an Olympic achievement yet just dreaming.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-09-04 06:05:51

So, what if you had a synthetic gravity machine, on the surface of the Moon, with a vertical axis of spin?

Could we also use than to give some launch velocity to payloads to space?

You might also put a linear catapult on that that might be a bit like one from an Aircraft Carrier.

There may be an advantage as per powering method. Mass Drivers and Rail Gun Systems have that fault as one section only can act once

If your rotating platform were like the Rotor of an electrical motor. And that having a Stator mounted to the surface of the Moon, (Bedrock), then electromagnetic coils could spin it up like a motor. On the Moon, perhaps this would only operate in the sunny period, if you were near the equator. Of course the device has to be levitated as well, like a more advanced form of train.

So, if it were done this way, there would be periodic synthetic gravity, once a month for a period of almost 2 weeks.

The payloads exported would likely need to have chemical propulsions as well. This would likely be true for the use of a linear mass driver, or a rail gun.

Unlike a linear device, you could bring power and payloads into the center of the device, using a tunnel system under it.

So, I recall that at one time, it was hoped that even accelerating a payload to 5% to 10% on Earth might be worth it. I think it turned out to be too hard and impractical for that reason. But for the Moon, 5% to 10% might be???

I might make some mistakes here so correct me if you see one.

Looking for the speed of a very low orbit of the Moon:
https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … 0the%20Sun.
Quote:

About 1600 meters per second

I would like some conversions.

1.6 km/second. 5,760 km/hour, so for cave people, 3579.09807 mph.

Then 576 km/hour or 358 mph, would give 10% of needed energy.

(Stretching things a bit as per practicality).

Spin Calc could be of use: https://www.artificial-gravity.com/sw/S … inCalc.htm

So, then if you mounted a linear catapult of some sort on top of this, the spin device might behave like flywheel, and could supply power to the linear catapult by a generator converting spin to electric and then the electric use to power the catapult.

A lot of work to help a load to orbit, when it may be that the use of LOX and Aluminum powder might do it anyway not using spin and linear methods for assistance.

But if this would actively operate for a period of almost 1-2 weeks out of each Lunar orbit of the Moon, it might also supply humans with periodic supplemental synthetic gravity.

Just needed to get that out of my head.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-04 06:48:51)

Void · 2024-09-13 13:15:22

I have this today, for the Moon: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1qosbZ Quote:

Science's favourite theory about the Moon may be totally wrong
Story by Harriet Brewis • 2d • 4 min read

I have for some time entertained the notion that a bubble of matter, of gas and dust and so on could have two condensation points. A cold nucleus on the outer edge of the bubble, and a hot condensation more by compression on the inside of the bubble.

I see Pluto/Charon resembling what the results of that could be.

In the case of Jupiter, the cold condensation point might have migrated inward during formation. Starting with Callisto>Ganymede>Europa>Io.

But of course, I do not know.

If this pattern is normal, then the original moon systems for Uranus and Neptune are expected to have been disrupted by Kuiper Belt objects.

Titan for Saturn could be a cold condensation point.

If the pattern is common, then Phobos and Deimos might be explained by a cold condensation moon that then got shattered either by an impactor, or by coming too close to Mars. This could be compatible with equatorial orbits, I am thinking.

For Mercury and Venus, sun tides are presumed to have been too much for the continuation of a moon.

In the case of Venus, an impact of a crashing moon could have heated things up like we see them. For Mercury any atmosphere probably was dissipated into space.

But it is only a notion and quit an opportunity to also be wrong.

Study of our Moon is very important, therefore.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-13 13:26:01)

Void · 2024-09-13 18:50:26

Anton Petrov produced a video also about questions about the Moon's formation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e5Qbz00joc
Quote:

Study Suggests Giant Impact Did Not Form the Moon...So What Then?
Anton Petrov
1.35

My notion is that the primary accretion object glows hot from pressurized accretion, and that pushes volatiles out to a place where they can condense into ices. Then those accrete in a colder manner than Earth. Eventually all the "Halo" objects get pulled into one object.

The Moon might actually condense inside of a very extended atmosphere around a proto-Earth that is rather small. While such an atmosphere would not last long it would be continuously be resupplied by infalling materials from the sun's accretion disk.

The accretion disk would actually shade this bubble of dust and gasses that the Earth and Moon were forming in, so it would be a cold environment, except for the glowing Earth.

Why is the Moon so dry then? Well maybe the gasses eventually were driven off, and the dust that came in later was dryer. So that would indicate a Moon with a wetter inside and a dryer outside.

But maybe that cannot work, I just don't know.

Possibly this could explain Pluto/Charon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-13 19:12:38)

Void · 2024-09-13 20:30:21

And then something more about the Moon: https://www.inverse.com/tiny-glass-bead … the%20Moon. Quote:

Mysterious Glass Beads Found On the Moon Contain Hidden Clues About Its Past
Just three little spheres of glass contain evidence that the Moon was volcanically active as recently as 120 million years ago.
by Kiona Smith
Sep. 5, 2024

https://phys.org/news/2024-09-million-y … -moon.html
Quote:

September 5, 2024
Editors' notes
Researchers prove 120-million-year-old volcanism on moon
by Chinese Academy of Sciences

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYGKdXdaaTY
Quote:

Revelation: China's Lunar Glass Beads Reveal a Surprisingly Active Moon 120 Million Years Ago!
SpaceEyeNews

I will offer the speculation that resistive heating might heat the core of a world where a differential voltage can exist, so that ground currents may exist. Though the conductivity of such rock must be very low, only a tiny amount of resistive heating would be necessary as the thermal insulation would be very high.

Also, I think that the solar wind could participate in such a differential voltage on the surface, and as well could do some inductive reactance into the materials of the Moon if they are in some locations conductive enough.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-13 20:44:54)

Void · 2024-09-14 08:24:49

This site is of interest for the Moon: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRMkYy … feDtrQgcTA
Quote:

AnthroFuturism
@Anthrofuturism
•
14K subscribers
•
46 videos
Lunar Development & Futurism
...more
patreon.com/LunarDevelopment
and 1 more link

This particular video mentions Iron and Steel on the Moon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZN2xXMb28g&t=5s
Quote:

How To Develop The Moon ALL PARTS
AnthroFuturism
14K subscribers

The Moon is becoming of interest to many entities. This will make it much harder for the verbal vampires to turn it into a slave operation, and some such entities are powerful and will not take kindly to being told to submit. I am sorry it has to be that way, but we can see that they are now going after Elon Musk. They really are Deamons.

Ending Pending

Oops! that is also an interesting video, but I think this is the one that mentions Iron and Steel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjQpcOW … xg&index=1
Quote:

Strip Mining The Moon With Giant Excavators
AnthroFuturism
14K

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-14 08:44:52)

Void · 2024-09-14 09:27:01

I still have materials to review from the just prior post, but I want to upload notions about an "Atmospheric Porpoise Method".

I could make the case that Falcon 9 already is a precursor to an "Atmospheric Porpoise Method".

But I would say that I think that Rocket Lab with its proposed and under development Neutron Rocket system is going to even better do an "Atmospheric Porpoise Method". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_La … market.%20

The 2nd stage hangs inside of the 1st stage. This allows it to be light weight, I read that it might weigh about as much as a motorcycle.

I think that a version of Starship could be built to resemble the Neutron 1st Stage. Then if Rocket Lab would build a 2nd stage to fit inside of it you might have something.

Where the Starship 1st Stage would feature Stainless Steel as it main structure, the 2nd stage built by Rocket Lab could be of Carbon Composites, and be light weight. The system would not involve landing the 2nd stage back on Earth, but it would actually be more intended for the Moon, but might also serve other purposes.

As it happens the 2nd Stage featuring Carbon would be pretty much something wanted on the Moon, the structure itself, never mind any payload it might carry.

It might be that the Starship itself may fly back to the launch site or land on a barge, or maybe it would do a sub-orbital to somewhere about 1/2 the way around the Earth, where another launch site might be. Indonesia, or Australia perhaps. I don't know if Starship could do that much though. It would definitely be sub-orbital.

Doing this, you would need much less rugged launch sites. 6-9 Starship engines on a launch instead of ~33 or so on the Super Heavy. This would allow for more spaceports to handle it.

But the 2nd Stages could still be refilled by a proper propellants Starship which used a Superheavy.

There could be a chance to also refill the 2nd stages with Oxygen from the Moon at some points in the trip to the surface of the Moon.

So, this has been on my mind. The use of Starship as a suborbital booster, will reduce its speed and so heating on reentry. So then it may only need a reduced amount of dry mass for a heat shield.

If it could land on the Machalilla without legs, then no need for legs dry mass as well.

One interesting notion would be to have the Starship as 1st stage, land somewhere much nearer to Texas or Florida, and then get refilled and then launch back to Florida or Texas in a retrograde sub-orbit path, likely without a payload.

That somewhere could be a sea platform that would support refilling and launch or could be an island in the Atlantic, perhaps or a nation in Africa or Europe, perhaps.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-14 09:52:52)

Void · 2024-09-15 09:54:27

I am not sure how much weight I will give to these claims: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XStfPOn5v0k
Quote:

Disaster! NASA Orion Heat Shield Problem Can't Fixed, Worse Than Starliner!
GREAT SPACE

Over time, I would like to see ships like Starship, perhaps using Super Heavy, as the atmospheric method, Surface<>LEO.

And then I would like to see Moonships based on Rocket Lab tech. This could also incorporate one time heat shields from Lunar materials, to allow air braking to LEO or greater orbits. The heat shields would then be recycled to build orbital structures.

But also, I would like to see, the Terran-R eventually evolve into a "Mini-Starship", eventually even being able to do full re-entry and landing to Earth or Mars.

The Smaller ships might be carried to LEO by A Starship type technology.

I would like to see other methods also developed, but I don't have a clear idea of those just yet.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-15 09:59:43)

Void · 2024-10-01 10:51:01

I have twice heard mention of the bringing back of propulsive landing for Dragon, for emergency landings.
https://www.youtube.com/c/whataboutit#: … or%20Space
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=489o4jwiIX4
Quote:

SpaceX Finally Reveals New Design! & The US Might Fall Behind China In The Race!
What about it!?

The Dragon landing option with propulsion is mentioned around minute 10:41 of the above video.

This along with the expended version that is to be built to deorbit the ISS, has caused me to see a very nice potential progression, to a Dragon Moon Lander system, perhaps supported by a Lunar Orbiting Atmospheric Starship.

I feel that a Starship Moon Orbiter, could support such a Dragon Moon Landing system. The landing system might only involve robots to collect lunar samples to analyze or perhaps to be brought to the Mother Ship, by a Dragon system.

Then to return to Earth a capsule lander such as a Dragon or the NASA capsule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(sp … )%20is%20a could return humans to Earth. But the Starship might do several skips on the atmosphere, to either eventually attain a refilling orbit or to actually land on Earth.

The Starship Lunar version could still have a place in this as it might just go one way to the Lunar surface with bulk cargo, and to then perhaps be converted into a Lunar Base.

I would imagine the capsule to land humans to Earth would travel with the returning Starship and would separate to do a full aero burn to the Earth's surface, while the Starship would do several skips on the atmosphere to bring it back to an orbit suitable for either refilling or landing.

At least in this case the money spent on Orion could be seen to provide value.

Ending Pending

I think that this would greatly reduce the amount of propellants needed for accessing the Moon, with the involvement of SpaceX technology.
And a Dragon Lander for the Moon would be a step in the direction of a Mini-Starship for the Moon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-01 11:13:37)

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