The Moon

Void · 2024-08-01 08:46:44

(th),

Thanks for the reply, but "Houston we have a problem".

It is apparent from your last post that you do not understand at all what my posting was about. Boosting empty fuel tanks from the surface of the Earth to LEO was not it. I suppose that there could be a case for it, but it does not seem like a good use of fairing space.

Have another look. The "Stack" I showed would be assembled in space after parts had been lifted to orbit. I suppose if the tanks were empty somewhere down the line, an orbital refilling with Lunar Oxygen might be possible quite a long bit down the line.

There are some additional materials that I want to add per posting, but we need to be sure you understand this thing in the first place.

Let's do this before we talk about rocket training. We need to have correct communications.

Done

Void · 2024-08-01 09:45:34

Alright I will attempt to communicate a specific mission type I have in mind. Sending a Humanoid Robot to a remote site to do some research and to collect samples. The objective is also to bring the samples back to Earth as primary, and to bring the robot back as secondary research.

The robot having endured the Moon environment for a period of time would be a test article worth brining back.

I have consolidated tanks into 1 and 2, to calm you down. Let's make it clear, this is assembled in LEO. It does not assend from the surface of the Earth.

The robot and its support devices would ride in the cargo basket 'B'.

While the engine 'C' consumes propellants from '2', '2' is refilled from '1'.

Upon reaching Lunar orbit, '2' is refilled rom '1'. The assembly '2' & 'C' & 'B' lands on the Moon. A hardened humanoid robot is employed to do science and collect samples.

When the surface activity is complete '2' & 'C' & the samples and robot fly to lunar orbit and refill from 2 and then take 'A' back towards Earth.

The robot and samples go into 'A' and an intercept of Earh occurs. '2' Splashes down hard, 'A' aerobrakes and then parachutes down for retrieval.

If '1' were not just one piece, then it could be possible to shed dry mass by dropping empty tanks along the way.

Empty tanks might be retrieved by a Nuclear Electric rocket in some cases, but I think it is not assured that that would be worth it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-01 10:16:30)

Void · 2024-08-02 13:26:37

I want to seek to build on this material and some of the previous posts: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 24#p225524

I would like to see what might be done with "Left-Overs".

1) Falcon 2nd Stage.
2) ISS De-orbit, enlarged Dragon.
3) Starship, Deep space/Lunar.

For #1, I see no reason why you could not add "Drop Tanks" to it. Even when the Falcon series may be retired, Starship could lift a 2nd stage and also drop tanks to attach to it to LEO.

Merlin is not as powerful as raptor, and it "Cokes" up, but if you had a fresh device with drop tanks, and refilled in it orbit, you could do a burn to Lunar orbit with a payload. That would be just one burn. Then of course you would have to do additional burns to deal with the Lunar orbits and surface, but Merlin already does multiple burns before having to be reserviced. However LOX would be subject to boiloff, and the fuel may be subject to jelling without proper care. On the other hand, the frame is lighter than Stainless steel. Granted, size matters as well in the ratio of Dry Mass to Wet Mass, but if the objective is to do prospecting it may be of value.

For #2, using Hypergolic propellants, similar can be true as per #1, but I don't know about the performance and safety adds to the risk reward issues. The propellants are relatively long storage, I think. (Corrections are welcome).

So, in a staged method, perhaps a drop tank augmented, #1 would push a augmented #2 to a landing on the Moon.
Robots would be included. The Robots would likely ride in a Payload Landing Ring or Segmented Payload Landing Ring.
(See illustration in post #102 in this topic).

I am looking for the landing ring to include cushioning methods for landing. Also, I want it to behave like a hover craft on the landing event, being able to exert hover force from the reflection of the rocket plume off of a landing pad.

The landing ring is likely for a one time use.

In using #1 and #2, to deliver robots, I am thinking of having #2 then lift the robots and Lunar Samples to Lunar orbit, after science is done. The Landing Ring will not be lifted. Then perhaps a electric rocket system could bring the robots and samples to a space station in LEO.

As for #3, I am thinking chop off the cargo section and use that for space stations, and then take the Locomotive, which includes engines and tanks and avionics to make a Moon vehicle. Add a Segmented Landing Ring.

The ring should be made of materials that are wanted on the Moons surface, to be recycled into 3D printing processes. In the beginning, perhaps Aluminum, and also Plastics.

I think that looks pretty good.

As the Locomotive could have an open flat top, you land on the Moon with large machinery on top of it. Blue Origin has that plan with their plan for "Blue Moon".

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-08-02 13:48:17)

Void · 2024-08-21 09:26:55

I have found that we are fortunate that this site allows parallel discussions, so that in the case where an alternative cannot find the light of day for the shade, then you can find an alternate bright patch for alternate pathways. So, good enough, it can work.

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 11#p225911
Quote:

This topic is interesting, but I will not try to obstruct or duplicate your materials.
I am interested in two primary activities for the Moon Skylights, and special resources.
I say skylights and do not object to lava tubes, but skylights themselves may be of value.
I think that at least 9/10ths of the activity on the Moon should be robotic and more likely 99% should be robotic. The Skylights may offer some fair protection for some types of such robots. I am thinking of the building of extensive factories in and around those skylights.
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/gi … ncna813396
https://www.astronomy.com/space-explora … moon-base/
Quote:
Studies have investigating sealing off and pressurizing a lava tube itself for use as a lunar habitat, but that plan is fraught with unknowns. A more practical venture might be to deploy an autonomous construction robot like an oversized Roomba that would clear and flatten the floor of a lava tube. Inflatable modules then placed in the shelter of a lava tube could quickly establish a permanent base on the Moon. Additional data returned by LRO’s Diviner Lunar Radiometer Experiment show the temperature within the Tranquillitatis skylight remains a benign 63 F (17 C), simplifying the design of an inflatable habitat.
And elsewhere China found the notion that there may be water in salts, in at least one place on the Moon.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techands … ngNewsSerp
Quote:
There's water on the Moon, and scientists have just confirmed where a lot of it may be hiding.
A mineral in Moon dust collected by China's Chang'e-5 lander and ferried to Earth was recently found to contain so much water, it makes up 41 percent of its weight.
The mineral is similar to novograblenovite, which was only identified a few years ago in basaltic rock from Russia's Kamchatka Peninsula. Both the lunar and terrestrial versions have the chemical formula (NH4)MgCl3·6H2O, and have similar crystalline structures.
In addition, there are hints that more Carbon exists on the Moon than expected. I believe Japan found some evidence of that: https://phys.org/news/2020-05-carbon-em … 0from%20it.
But we can see.
A problem we have is that one of the American goals is to put a woman of color on the Moon. Now don't get me wrong, that is a actual desire even for me. But I don't see that there should be any emphasis for leaving large amounts of people on the Moon, until sufficient and low cost resources for it are found. If there were to be people on the Moon, then fine make them all women of color, to please any DEI agenda necessary, as long as they are competent to do the needed work, and I expect that many can be.
Well OK then, I will leave you alone as that may suit you.
Done

A problem that I see happening over and over again, everywhere, is the fossilization of ideas. Specifically the resort back to thinking of reality as it was understood in the 60's or 70's.

For instance just now on Utube I was listening to a person who is clearly intelligent, at least in familiar ways, and she said that Mars has a thin atmosphere because it floated of f into space. She is likely partial correct. But new discovery since the 60's and 70's suggests that not nearly as much atmosphere has drifted away as was originally supposed. And we have the notion now that give some evidence that the Oceans ended up going underground to a large degree. But Fossil thinking, simply circles back in time always. It is how experts claim to be experts. But it is a prison for the mind as it does not allow for "What If".

Callibans initiating post contains a video that is apparentlyi what stimulated that post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 94#p225894

Biological life implanted on the Moon could have value, such as studying health in that environment.
Some number of humans might be useful in periodic instances, or small bases.
Tourism may have some value on the Moon.
But I think that by far robots, virtual reality, and avatar methods are going to be the bulk of what matters on the Moon.

Until we understand what the raw materials on the Moon are and how they can be converted to resources, we cannot have a good plan for what to do on the Moon. So, we need to find out. And robots are likely the least cost to do that.

A robotic economy on the Moon will require far less of the life support that humans will, and robots are more likely to be better adapted to that world.

Where Lava Tubes may be of some interest on the Moon, I also am very interested in the Skylights. The interiors of them may provide some "Life-Support" for robots/machines, and of course even humans on some occasions.

There is thermal protections apparently and also some protection for impactors and also from hard radiation.

It should not be hard to build simple "Barns" for robots/machines, and perhaps humans to retreat to during hazardous events such as solar storms. For the machines, we are not talking about airlocks, just doors.

From that initial setup, I would anticipate building the Skylights into singular buildings, as places for factories. Regolith scraped from the surrounded areas may be dropped down chutes and screens, as both a supply of raw materials and also to clean the surroundings. One way to deal with the dust problem would be to dust things and convert the dust to resources.

As for special materials such as Hydrogen, Carbon, and Nitrogen, those are less needed by robots, but sources are likely to be available on the Moon and the extraction of them and moving them to the Skylights could be a useful practice.

Done

The Skylights give access to nurturing points of mercy for the young process but then allow for the expansion of such a process into a sort of adulthood. The Lava Tubes, are interesting, but basically are a form of hiding. You actually cannot hide from the Moon but find a way to adapt to it and seek the protections is offers easily.

Done.

Calliban has had an excellent idea, Sulfur Dioxide as a fluid for heat engines!
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 20#p225920
Quote:

Sulphur is one of the few volatiles that exist there in any practical abundance.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-21 10:03:13)

Void · 2024-08-21 10:35:27

In the previous post the Sulfur Dioxide option offered by Calliban, is very important, I feel.

Regolith processed might be subject to various extractions. Oxygen is one. But, could it be sensible to export an Oxide from the Moon rather than just LOX? Aluminum Oxide for instance. To then be reprocessed in an orbit somewhere, to become various things useful and also even rocket propellants. Of course you would retain enough Aluminum for your needs on the Moon as well.

There are some works in that direction: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ant-source

Probably more work is desired.

The regolith then processed, you might as well, get a lot of the Oxygen out of it and as other members have suggested get Iron and other substances. The remainders perhaps can be used to make "Bricks".

So, Calliban has good notions of thermal storage, using stones/bricks, and SO2. And there is not particular reason to stipulate any one power supply. Invention may change what makes the most sense in the future. It can be solar or nuclear or both, and maybe something else.

If Skylights can over time be filled with metal and stone/brick structure, then perhaps this is better than Lava Tubes. So, then the question becomes do you want to make more trenches in the rock like that by either collapsing a Lava Tube, or simply burning a trench?

Ways to dig deep geothermal wells on the Earth, might prove to be useful on the Moon: https://www.fastcompany.com/90717968/th … geothermal Quote:

02-08-2022
WORLD CHANGING IDEAS
These 12-mile-deep holes could convert power plants from fossil fuel to geothermal
Using a new technology that employs energy waves to melt rock, the wells can do deeper than standard geothermal, potentially making the renewable energy work anywhere on earth.

We could ask if such drillholes on the Moon would be of use, and if the process might be altered to both dig trenches in the bedrock of the Moon and at the same create stone blocks of a desired shape and size.

A stone trench in the lunar crust with a Roman arch ceiling might be useful on the Moon. If you had metals you could also make that better than the Romans had. After all corrosion on the Moon may be much more limited than on the Earth.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-21 10:53:46)

Void · 2024-08-22 08:55:46

This somewhat old article indicates that the interior of the Moon is perhaps 100 times wetter than was originally supposed after Apollo.
https://www.space.com/11797-moon-interi … 20surprise.

Quotes:

Moon's Interior Wet As Earth's, Rocks Indicate
News
By Mike Wall published May 26, 2011

Last October, scientists announced that a crater near the lunar south pole is jam-packed with water ice, likely holding a billion gallons of the stuff.
Now, new research has found that the moon's insides are likely as wet as the Earth's upper mantle, the region just below its miles-thick surface crust.
This discovery, made by studying pieces of lunar magma hurled to the surface by ancient volcanic eruptions, comes as a big surprise.

They found water contents ranging from 615 to 1,410 parts per million. Those levels are about 100 times higher than previous studies of lunar magma had suggested, and they're comparable to the concentrations found in the Earth's upper mantle. The melt inclusions also harbored Earth-like levels of chlorine, fluorine and sulfur.

India confirmed Sulfur near a polar area: https://apnews.com/article/indias-moon- … d4048a5d05 Quote:

India’s moon rover confirms sulfur and detects several other elements near the lunar south pole.

The Angry Astronaut has a Video that is related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9UA0duyTtk

China found Hydrated Salts: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-024-02306-8
Quote:

In this study we present the discovery of a hydrated mineral, (NH4)MgCl3·6H2O, in lunar soil samples returned by the Chang’e-5 mission that contains approximately 41 wt% H2O. The mineral’s structure and composition closely resemble novograblenovite, a terrestrial fumarole mineral formed through the reaction of hot basalt with water-rich volcanic gases, and carnallite, an Earth evaporite mineral.

So, this collection seems to indicate that you might go to high latitudes and also dig down old volcanic vents and get some of the materials that are desired.

And this could indicate why water is seen in sunlit areas also.

The Moon had an atmosphere and likely was wet for a period of time, so salts might have formed, and volcanism apparently can form salts as well.

Things like Sodium and Sulfur may bounce around the Moon and may settle down at high latitudes. It may not be necessary to go to shadowed craters, just high latitudes.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-22 09:44:18)

Void · 2024-08-22 09:46:00

I have taken an interest in Aluminum Oxide from the Moon and perhaps from Phobos and Deimos, or asteroids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxide

This substance could be for multiple uses. And may help make Lunar Resources more useful before even Mass Drivers can be built on the Moon.

Bricks: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Aluminum+ … cc=0&ghpl=

What I have in mind is a Propellants cycle based on Aluminum Oxide from the Moon and perhaps Hydrogen from the Earth.

What might be possible is that you deliver the blocks to some Earth orbit. Maybe Geosynchronous, maybe LEO or a bit above LEO.

These are then the ingredients for protective structures, and also a source of propellants.

They also could be heatshield materials, in various ways, even allowing some ablation.

And perhaps this indicates that some sort of radiation shielding is possible: https://news.ncsu.edu/2020/02/smaller-l … shielding/

This would sidestep the transport of liquid propellants, which I think could be very important.

So, structures are manufactured on the surface of the Moon, out of Aluminum Oxide, and then they are lifted to orbit by some means.

The cargo is then attached to the outside of a ship like Starship. Otherwise, this ship would not have a heat shield.

The Ship heads back to Earth, and then airbrakes to a useful orbit.

The heat shield is removed. It can then be processed into various things including propellants.

Boiloff issues are avoided as you did not bring a liquid from the Moon to Earth orbit.

But Propellant Starships could bring Hydrogen up to orbit from Earth.

Now you have many options.

You might use Alice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29
Quote:

Additionally, aluminum oxide condenses out of the exhaust stream at high temperature, leaving it (and its heat of condensation) unable to contribute to expansion, unless there is another gas present to function as a working fluid. This generally has relegated aluminum's role in rocketry to that of being an additive to solid rocket propellants, increasing their density and combustion temperature, and stabilizing the burn.

The output of Alice would be hot steam of Hydrogen and perhaps water with Aluminum Oxide grains in it.

We might be able to create a slurry with it and more Aluminum Dust, and then burn that slurry as a fuel, against LOX.

The Alice Fuel is also a solid until used.

So, this might be the propellants you use to fly to the Moon and back again with a load of Aluminum Oxide Tiles.

It is true, in this situation you would in fact have LOX, which could boil off, but that may not be such a problem. Particularly on the return trip when you may have Aluminum Oxide Tiles which could shield the ship from the heat of the sun and the heat of atmospheric braking.

This propulsion method would be something like a pulverized coal burner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulverize … red_boiler
But it would be pulverized Aluminum Dust, mixed with a carrier gas which would be the output of an Alice combustion process.

Now I have to admit that there could be a space junk concern. If the output is a dust as we want it to be, then perhaps it will not be so bad.

But it has to be looked into.

You also may need to address concerns that a ship covered in Aluminum Oxide Bricks might crash into the surface of Earth. That has to be handled.

Perhaps, partly by flying over oceans and also not dipping too deep into the atmosphere.

Obviously, the bricks are delivered to orbit to be structures and also propellants. The bricks then would need reworking in order to become such propellants.

Done

If you went ahead and used Hydra Lox to send the ship from LEO to the Moon, the dust problem would be reduced. Similarly, you might be able to burn the Alice + propulsion when around the Moon, if your output would either crash into the Moons surface or fly out of the Earth's gravity well.

You would want to be able to process bricks into Oxygen and Aluminum in Lunar orbit, and might include a pinch of Hydrogen from the Moon or the Earth.

Done

Lifting bricks to Lunar Orbit would possibly require Hydra Lox.

But if you were ever able to toss bricks to Lunar orbit with a Mass Driver of some kind then things would work even better.

Done

There has been some work on propulsion systems that use a paste of Aluminum powder and LOX.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-22 13:06:14)

Void · 2024-08-22 13:09:53

So, now this returns to previous notions I have had for a "Surfboard Heatshield".

The surfboard wants the quality of being composed of light structure that is still rigid enough and tough enough to endure the atmospheric excursion, with a spaceship attached to it and behind it.

If your structure is then large, then you have an enlarged footprint. This is like snowshoes. So, then the thermal stress will be less per unit of area, as the mass to footprint ratio is more favorable to lower temperature aerobraking.

But the device needs to be strong enough to not break up.

Done

Void · 2024-08-22 23:38:28

I am willing to believe this, I hope it is as true as it sounds: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … cea01&ei=5

Quote:

Ad
Interesting Engineering
25K Followers
Water extracted from lunar soil: China’s method can produce H2O on moon at large scale
Story by Prabhat Ranjan Mishra • 6h • 3 min read

Quote:

The team found that some of the minerals in lunar soil – especially the oxide mineral ilmenite – store large amounts of hydrogen as a result of billions of years of exposure to the solar wind. When heated, the hydrogen chemically reacts with iron oxides in the minerals to produce large amounts of water, as well as iron and ceramic glass, reported SCMP.

This mineral is mentioned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmenite
Quote:

Ilmenite is a titanium-iron oxide mineral with the idealized formula FeTiO
3. It is a weakly magnetic black or steel-gray solid. Ilmenite is the most important ore of titanium[5] and the main source of titanium dioxide, which is used in paints, printing inks,[6] fabrics, plastics, paper, sunscreen, food and cosmetics.[7]

We will see how far this goes. I would not be surprised if high latitude minerals may have more Hydrogen content from the bombardment of solar protons.

I am certainly wanting the claims to be as stated.

Everything may fall into place. The Moon, Phobos, Mars, etc.

If you can do any of them with the rocket systems under development, then you can do them all.

Very happy. Good work China!

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-22 23:47:54)

Void · 2024-08-23 00:02:04

Reviewing post #107, I might wonder if Aluminum Oxide dust in orbit of Earth ~LEO, may drag space junk into the atmosphere. But you then have to have a spacecraft that can endure the Aluminum Oxide dust.

So, a maybe?

Something to think about.

Done

Void · 2024-08-23 09:38:05

So, then, some greater hope of Carbon on the Moon: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 0c5f&ei=18
Quote:

Graphene, the new ‘wonder material’ in Earth technology, found in moon soil
Story by Eric Ralls • 2w • 4 min read

Quote:

As our cosmic capabilities expand, researchers advocate for further missions targeting carbon-rich areas on the Moon and other celestial bodies.

So somebody thinks that there could be Carbon rich areas on the Moon. A little Carbon could go a long way.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-23 09:41:24)

Void · 2024-08-23 09:45:41

There are some interesting fragments in this video. None of them are ready to deploy to the Moon or are as good as robots could get but these are interesting developments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31D0XhCRKtU
Quote:

Newest G1 AI Robot With 43 Degrees of Freedom Shocks Tech Industry ($16,000 HUMANOID)
AI News
77.9K subscribers

The most important features mentioned are the virtual reality aspects, I think.

As I have already said, there are some interesting features in this video. But none of this is ready for the Moon yet.

For some of this there appears to be a great deal of East Asian contribution. I suspect that that is why they opted in at least one case to make a small robot.

I seem to recall that the East Asians and some other peoples do not have the obsession for "Big" that some parts of the west seem to have. To be Tall and have very large primary and secondary features is not as important in their cultures, or at least was not so. Some readers will start thinking that this then requires a binary contest. Of course, not I suspect that East Asia has a cultural architecture where the Masculine has more to say about mating than does the Feminine.

And if we go to other parts of the world, a typical structure may be a few big men with a congregation of general female population. These tend to be in accordance to the cravings of females, for a controllable killer ape man, that they can put a harness on.

Yin and Yang, matter and antimatter. Yes, a polarity. The Mongols did well in eastern Europe, until the Europeans learned to make strong castles. I believe that castles represent the feminine, a planted social architecture. Where the Mongols were highly mobile.

I could try to drill down deeper, but I will say that their has to be an optimal size for human things like tall, big, primary and secondary sexual feature size.

The average for Yamnayan Men:
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_ … 173.2%20cm.
Quote:

The average height for Yamnayan men was 175.5cm (5 ft 9 in), approximately the same as the modern average for American and French men, and slightly taller than the average Mesolithic EHG men, who stood at 173.2 cm.

Optimus is built to be about that tall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_(robot)
Quote:

5 feet 8 inches

The logic for this is that the humanoid robots are intended to fit into the human world.

But let us not forget that there are women and Pygmies. These are also human.

Average height for women: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 804f&ei=25
Quote:

The average height for women varies across the world. In the United States, it is 5 feet 3.5 inches tall1. Globally, women's average height ranges from 4 feet 11 inches to 5 feet 7 inches1.

There are definitely some things that smaller hands might do better, particularly in technology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peoples
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peo … %29%20tall.
Quote:

In anthropology, pygmy peoples are ethnic groups whose average height is unusually short. The term pygmyism is used to describe the phenotype of endemic short stature (as opposed to disproportionate dwarfism occurring in isolated cases in a population) for populations in which adult men are on average less than 150 cm (4 ft 11 in) tall.[1]

So, in going into space we might want to address the obsession with big and tall that exists at least in the USA.

Elon Musk is an exceptional person, and his size may help him to rise in social graces in our society, and also may give him a certain type of physical stamina. So, I don't knock that. He has participated in the creation of big things, and is not petty in his needs as far as I can see. This is a case where big and tall paid off. I read that he is 6' 2". Sorry metrics.

But if we are thinking of sizing robots, we might want to consider that a smaller version may have value. We say make the robots so that they fit into a human world, but Pygmy size should fit as well.

As for the Moon, it is early days, and it is hard to know just how useful the humanoid form robot will be on the Moon. I would expect that there could be other types and sizes/weights.

Clearly size matters. In space something needs to be big enough to do it's tasks whatever they are, but inertia is an enemy of capabilities to travel. So, again this is something to think about.

In the American culture satiating the cravings of women's desires is probably going to breed a race of big idiots. And so we may need to fall back on cultures like China, as much as we like our own culture, we are breeding big idiots.

We have a number of generations before the ideocracy is completed, but that is the direction we are heading in.

As for Robots for the Moon and other worlds, we may want to consider what is the range of sizes that could be useful.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-23 10:43:17)

Void · 2024-08-23 12:13:38

So, I am looking at robot cities on the Moon, with mind linkages to humans of the Earth and in space.

So, what robots and what type of city?

I have not completed this video, but it broadens the potential of robot types: Robots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLVAMG_3fLg
Quote:

The Real Reason Robots Shouldn’t Look Like Humans | Supercut
Veritasium
16M subscribers

So, an alternative notion of robots that I have not completed viewing het. I don't know how much I agree with them.

But I do think that robot cities on the Moon may be of some value.

It is not that I do not consider the value of humans, rather I am looking at robots and trying to understand what the nature of cities to protect them would be on the Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-23 12:17:20)

Void · 2024-08-23 19:32:17

I want this to be relatively simple, and it is:

This would be a cross section of a road method for the Moon. The 'A' frame solar panels not only would gather electricity during the day but would heat the paved road below. Such heating could be modified with insulation and with heaters for the road pavement.

These covered roads would more likely run north and south but could also run east and west in some cases.

We might very well want to have electrical trolly lines inside or electric rails.

The hope in part would be to have a moderated climate inside where the robots would have electric power available. We also want dust control for the interior environment.

Thermal Batteries and Chemical Batteries might be included. I am curious if Iron/Air batteries would be suitable.

During the daytime some of the types of robots might heat the bricks with microwaves to store heat for the night.

You might build "Attics" with elevators in the higher part for industrial activities. This would allow horizontal travel of robots on the lower part.

But you might have factories on wheels, which could move to a location of raw materials and process them to make more structure, extensions.

This is not solved, rather it asks for thoughts on how to make it better.

I have made a fuss about Lava Tube Skylights, and these could connect to them and also to high latitude volatile resource locations.

Eventually the system might be like a spider web all around the Moon, so that an electric grid for the whole Moon could exist.

Humans could be fostered in special location or in the process of travel between such special locations.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-23 19:45:48)

Void · 2024-08-24 08:36:18

The prior post included this:

The level of protection of robots within could be made significant. But radiation protection for robots may be slight. However simple things at some locations could help. It may help with solar flairs, and just a small amount with GCR.

https://www.science.org/content/article … ments-show
Quote:

Moon safe for long-term human exploration, first surface radiation measurements show
China’s lunar lander finds radiation dose is 200 times that at Earth’s surface
25 Sep 2020ByAdam Mann

At high latitudes the sunlight will tend to come in from the Horizon, at the edges of the shadowed craters.

While the idea of circling the Moon at the Equator may seem a daunting task, up near the poles it may be an intention worth keeping in mind. In that case it may be possible to eventually have a continuing power supply if a polar circumnavigation road might be created.

So, it might be a desire to build in that sort of set of notions. But I also think that it might be possible to build solar power stations on top of high polar mountains to catch more sunlight and then to beam it to some of the other locations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent … wed_crater
Quote:

Location
Such a crater must be located at high latitude (close to a pole) and be on a body with very small axial tilt. The Moon has an axial tilt of about 1.5°; Mercury, 0.03°;[6] and Ceres, about 4°.[7]
On the Moon, permanent shadow can exist at latitudes as low as 58°; approximately 50 permanently shadowed regions exist in the 58°- 65° latitude range for both lunar hemispheres.[8]
The cumulative area of permanently shadowed lunar regions is about 31 thousand km2; more than half of it is in the southern hemisphere.[9]

I think that we should put a hairy eyeball to a look at this:

Planetary protection
In 2020, NASA assigned "sensitive location" status to the Moon's permanently shadowed regions to avoid their contamination.[27] The SETI Institute has a contract to manage planetary protection measures for NASA.[28]

I took a real estate class once and learned enough to know that this is a potential encumbrance to the goals that many of our kind have. The principals are honorable, but this may also be used as a tool for globalists, and the family of NAZI, Socialist, Communist, and some religious organizations to keep human populations as slaves.

One has to be alert to the fact that power entities may not only hold title to lands, but also, we can find evidence of the notions that they may feel that the people are the ultimate property to own. I very much dislike any people who hold the establishment of us and peoples as a property that they may own. I consider them to be historic criminals, and potentially still active and potent to use such a leverage for power and money.

But I consider a system of stewardship to potential be acceptable. The higher goals of planetary protection have value, but not as a tool to enslave the human race.

Covered roads might seem rather low tech, but after all the Romans seemed to value roads. I do not hold all things Roman as wrong. But the tendency to fall into a Getto culture is a current danger of it to at least the USA. Such cultural structure is used by the elites above that to batter down, positions of those of the North and East cultures. It is why to a large extent the North peoples of the USA did not like the slave system of the south. Such enslaved labor would allow the elites of such a slave system to grab the means of existence from peoples like the Northern Europeans, Native Americans, and East Asians.

But these are words. The analysis of the problem is not only with words. When we resort to words, then we jump into the tank with sharks. This then makes us vulnerable to the Pseudo-Romans. Pseudo-Romans tend to think that Verbal and Violent is all that matters and is the measure of all reality.

I believe that we have exited from a Pseudo-Roman era, but they are struggling to keep us held down even so. They do not understand the concept of handing off the torch, they only understand that they want all the power all of the time.

Even so, I understand the value of the better things that they have done. Covered roads on the Moon seem like a reasonable emulation of one thing. These might eventually then also reach out to other raw materials that can become resources on the Moon.

When I seem to praise Japan, China, and India, it is because I see that they have a potential of helping us to keep our Pseudo-Romans from achieving their goal of owning us outright. And after all, if they have good achievements, they should be recognized for it.

It seems that the shadowed craters are not the only places to get rare raw materials from.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-08-24 12:35:39)

Void · 2024-08-24 12:37:25

So covered and electrified roads may create value on the Moon. The nature of robots for inside of these covered roads and elsewhere on the Moon can remain open to inventions and further discovery.

Done

Void · 2024-08-24 13:18:50

I am going to have a try at a system with high dependency on Moon resources, to deliver materials either to LEO or GEO from the Moon.

I will specify that the ship will not be expected to land on Earth, and after having launched from Earth might shed some of its engines. This process would be due to it likely being easier to manufacture the ship on Earth, but that after launch to LEO, it would not need more engine power than what is required to launch from the Moon.

I am going to presume that the ship landing the Moon could be outfitted with resources for it to carry a cargo to LEO or GEO.

This could include being fully tanked with LOX.

It is possible that Hydrogen could come from the Moon, perhaps less likely that Carbon would.

Cargo could be carried on the outside of the ship, perhaps in the form of a heat shield. This heat shield would be attached to the ship prior to launch.

Additional cargo inside of the ship, (Perhaps) would be fine Aluminum Dust. Also, perhaps some water or water ice.

The desire is to lift the assembly to a low orbit by way of Standard Starship propulsion and then to try to switch to Aluminum as at least in part a fuel. This would require new types of engines.

Some that already may exist:
Alice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29

But could we try a "Thirsty Alice"? That is increase the proportion of Aluminum, and then somehow pump extra Oxygen into the device?
Perhaps using a pre-burner from a Raptor, the one on the Oxidizer side. This would need to consume a small amount of Methane, in the case of Starship methods. Even if the Alice device was one time use, that could be OK, as it's casing would likely be retained in the assembly to be recycled in LEO or GEO.

But in the use of Aluminum dust as propellant I guess there has to be a concern about orbital pollution. But the Earh's magnetic field only goes out to about GEO, and if you fired a "Dry Alice" from Lunar orbit, not only might the dust leave the Earth's gravity well, but perhaps be pushed out by the solar wind? Some dust might fall onto the Moon. Thie burn of Aluminum fuel would be done prior to entering the Earth's magnetic field.

In general, I have it in mind to use the strap-on Heat Shield, to airbrake to a highly elliptical orbit of Earth. If one pass, then you might do a burn of some kind to go to GEO with it. If multiple times, then you might settle into an orbit which is advantageous to go back to the Moon. This would still be somewhat elliptical in nature.

So, it might be that Starship would still lift Methane to Orbit to fuel this process. So, in that case the run back to the Moon would not burn Aluminum, but I suppose it could if the orbital pollution problem were not a concern.

The Heat Shield composed in large parts of Metal Oxides, and in Particular Aluminum Oxide, could be processed to make Oxygen to refill a Starship which was bound to go back to the Moon. The Starship would not carry a Heat Shield with it to the Moon, but would get another one at the Moon, perhaps with another "Dry Alice".

The Metals from the Heat Shield would be rendered into orbital structure and perhaps also Propellants. If such a thing as a "Dry Alice" were to work then such could help push missions to deep space, perhaps Mars.

There are other concepts to burn Aluminum powder against Oxygen as well: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ant-source

So, then this is part of why I would want covered roads for robots on the Moon. The roads also could house manufacturing for the propulsion methods I have been suggesting.

While there might be a few people on the Moon, most of the robots would be run remotely by computers, and people on the Earth.

Done

This then would not require Mass Driver Systems, but such would also be possible down the line I suspect.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-24 13:49:35)

Void · 2024-08-24 14:47:08

I witnessed another article about the deep water on Mars.

Some people have already speculated that the Moon may have deep water. On rare occasions I have seen notions of water in the interior of the Moon. True or false, not established 100% yet.

But we think the Ceres has underground water, and now we think that Mars has underground water. Earth has very deep water in ringwoodite, but that is different than for Mars and Ceres.

One difference between Earth and Mars & Ceres is gravitation. Similarly, the Moon has a gravitation between that of Ceres & Mars.

If the Moon ever had a wet atmosphere, then there is a chance that water went underground. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-spac … 180965250/
Quote:

The thin atmosphere, so the scientists reason, was created by gases derived from lava outpourings that engulfed huge areas of the Moon about 3.5 billion years ago, at a time when life already existed on Earth. So much gas was produced that the lunar atmosphere was 1.5 times thicker than the current atmosphere on Mars. And it lasted for millions of years. That’s a far different picture from how we normally envision the Moon—as a dead, dry rock in space.

So very salty cold bodies of water might have been possible on the Moon, if some method where the water was delivered existed. If you believe that the Earth got its water from comets from the asteroid belt for instance, then the Moon would have gotten water as well.

Plaet Mercury has some newly discovered interesting features: https://www.livescience.com/space/mercu … rs-suggest Quote:

These glaciers, found in Mercury's Raditladi and Eminescu craters, aren't quite like the typical icebergs we think of on Earth. Instead, they're flows of salt that trapped volatile compounds deep below Mercury's surface. In geology terms, volatiles are chemicals that readily evaporate on a planet — like water, carbon dioxide and nitrogen. Mercury's strange salt-bergs were revealed by asteroid impacts, which exposed this material trapped below the surface; that's why scientists discovered them in craters.

Here are the things I have been thinking.

If the Moon and Mercury each have had the same polar zones as today, and if they ever had substantial atmospheres, and it seems the Moon did, and if they were wet, I would expect the following.

Water would condense at the poles, as liquid and ice. Dust from dust storms would deposit, and salts would evolve. So very salty water could survive for a time at cold temperatures towards the poles.

In the case of Mercury there do seem to be salt deposits at one pole anyway. Here is a picture from the Article:
Image Quote:

It needs to be remembered that the Moon once had a magnetic field apparently and that the magnetic field of Mercury may have been stronger in the past, and that the sun was not as bright billions of years ago.

In the case of the Moon if water settled down many km below the surface, it would have a permafrost crust above it. Maybe icy or not.

In the case of Mercury permafrost icy or dry may exist towards the polar areas.

So, if water settled into the deeps of these planets, then permafrost may have reduced the speed of its evaporation to space.

Again, both Mars and Ceres suggest somewhat rocky objects where water went underground.

It could be that if this is in part a function of lower gravitation, then Mercury and the Moon have or may have had such water as well.

I am thinking that the Earth's gravity and perhaps plate tectonics keeps the oceans from settling down into the crust, but lower gravity with no plate tectonics may allow deep crust water.

Of course, we would want to find that if it exists.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-24 15:18:08)

Calliban · 2024-08-24 15:46:30

From what I recall, none of the rock or soil samples returned from the moon showed signs of aqueous alteration. The moon lacks sedimentary rocks, Iron (III) Oxide, hydrated salts or clays. Not only is there no water now, there is no mineralogical evidence that there ever was. Aside from the ice found at the poles, there is no evidence of a historical hydrosphere. If such evidence were found, it would up end our understanding of lunar geology.

Could it be that such water does exist in the mantle? The lunar mantle appears to be solid. A portion of water dissolved in the magma may have been released as it turned to solid rock. Rocks effected by this water would be too deep to reach the surface and the mantle experiences no convection. Could the moon host a deep hydrosphere that leaves no evidence on the surface?

Last edited by Calliban (2024-08-24 15:52:20)

Void · 2024-08-24 16:50:18

Given the need to place money on a bet, I would bet against myself and towards your opinion. But the Apollo samples were from lower latitudes, and if the Moon had a temporary Hydrosphere with a very marginal air pressure, then condensate might be only at high latitudes and perhaps with the aid salts. And the time span would have been brief.

Discoveries from India and China, so far seem to indicate that salts of a volcanic sort exist at least one place at high latitudes and those are highly hydrated, and the Sulfur. If the Moons poles have been somewhat constant in location, then lower latitudes might have been dry as from desert conditions and perhaps it might have snowed at higher latitudes and with salt that would have developed water.

But it is a long shot. But the pattern of Ceres, Mars, and perhaps Mercury is apparent. Seemingly underground salty water in the deeps of the crust.

That is a bit sketchy, but what I am after is to see if there is a pattern that can be identified for low gravity semi-terrestrial objects.

But what I would now start to expect in the shadowed craters may be hydrated minerals more than ices.

Supposing a very large comet hit the Moon, then a temporary atmosphere might develop. Air circulation would tend to bring water vapors into the shadowed craters, and near them, if any salts existed then some temporary liquid might exist at a low temperature. This could sink into the regolith.

But no, the evidence is still against it but, now I know that this sort of consideration might be factored in.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-24 16:52:47)

Void · 2024-08-24 17:04:08

I do appreciate your post Calliban, but I guess it is my job to check under the bed for monsters. (I'm self-appointed for that).

Here is an article that hints at some other possibility to add water to a water table on the Moon and yet not show fluvial features on the surface.

https://www.universetoday.com/tag/lro/# … eated%20it.
Quote:

After examining LCROSS data on the Cabeus crater near the Moon’s south pole, a multinational team of researchers from the U.S. and France determined that the water ice and volatiles in the crater were likely delivered by the impactor (a comet) that created it.

Many notions of water from comets going to the poles seems to imagine, the comet vaporizing and some of the vapor condensing to ice in the shadowed craters. But this one sounds like a mud-ball, hit the Moon, and substantially stayed there.

What if it melted and vaporized on its bottom? Then perhaps the fluids would be squirted into the broken crust. Should salts evolve, the freezing temperature would drop. Actually because of Aluminum 26, it is possible that the comet had an old frozen ocean of salt water in its center as well.

The injected water and vapors would possibly condense to ice, or maybe even if in substantially warm regolith it may be liquid far down.

Sor rather than vaporize, the heat of impact perhaps to some extent would be dissipated in an injection event.

Farfetched, but then I did not expect them to find comet ice either.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-24 17:13:54)

Void · 2024-08-24 20:44:06

It is not that I want to be a jerk, but it is rather that something else fell into my lap just now.
https://www.sciencealert.com/meteorite- … r-realized
Quote:

A team led by lunar geoscientist Tara Hayden of the University of Western Ontario found a mineral therein that suggests the lunar crust was rich in volatile elements 4 billion years ago, including water.
That mineral is a common phosphate known as apatite, and it's the first time we've ever seen apatite in material from the Moon.

So, if true then the original water did not leave the magma before the Moon formed. And it true then likely there was at least a bit of atmosphere. And also, it is thought that the Moon may have had a significant magnetic field when it was closer to Earth.

https://news.mit.edu/2019/when-lunar-dynamo-ended-0101
Quote:

Over the past few years, Weiss’ group and others have discovered signs of a strong magnetic field, of around 100 microteslas, in lunar rocks as old as 4 billion years. For comparison, Earth’s magnetic field today is around 50 microteslas.

The article indicates that the field perhaps died 1-1.5 billion years ago.

So, what I am thinking of for small worlds with lower gravity and no plate tectonics, is that the cracking just accumulates and is not squeezed out, and so water might settle down into them. For Earth, perhaps the water gets squeezed back up to the surface.

When I was young, some people said that the Martian ice caps were all CO2 and that the amount of water on Mars would fill the Great Salt Lake only. Our evaluation of Mars continues to reveal more water all the time. So, it may be possible that the Moon may do the same.

But the Moon is closer to the sun, and its gravity is ~1/2 that of Mars, and so, perhaps its surface has aged faster, but maybe deep water persists as ice or bonded to minerals at depth at this time. Maybe it is still leaking to the surface slowly.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-24 20:58:09)

Void · 2024-08-25 05:50:52

I stumbled into this interesting read: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1p8gsT Quote:

Planets are hiding much more water than we thought
Story by Eric Ralls • 4d • 4 min read

Quote:

However, recent research has begun to show that planets are more complex than this model suggests, particularly those located close to their stars. These exoplanets are often extremely hot, featuring oceans of molten magma rather than solid silicate mantles like Earth's.
In such molten conditions, water can dissolve much more easily compared to gases like carbon dioxide, which tend to escape into the atmosphere.

Well, it appears then that a molten Moon may very well have clung to its water.

Quote:

Simulations suggested that the equivalent of more than 80 Earth oceans could be stored within the planet's interior. This idea aligns with seismological measurements and experimental data, providing a new understanding of how water is stored within planets.

I have seen many suggestions of where Earth's and perhaps the Moons water could have come from. It appears it comes from many sources.

But most importantly if the Moon were splashed into existence by an impactor, being molten does not then cause it to lose its water to space.

And while the splash may have been under high g forces from impact and ejection and low g forces before it formed into an object, there is not a situation that even favors the escape of gas bubbles from the molten rock.

This query turns up some interesting materials: "water on the ancient moon"
https://www.bing.com/search?q=water+on+ … n-us&ocid=

https://science.nasa.gov/moon/moon-water-and-ices/
Quote:

4 billion years ago
New research has revealed that the surface of the Moon was rich with water around 4 billion years ago12. This discovery provides evidence that water existed on the Moon during its ancient past, and the preserved hydrogen suggests that it may have come from within the Moon itself3.

https://scitechdaily.com/lunar-hydrosph … -the-moon/
Quote:

Lunar Hydrosphere Unveiled: Discovery Changes Understanding of Water’s History on the Moon
By Jeff Renaud, University of Western OntarioJanuary 31, 20241 Comment5 Mins Read

So, quite a change in thinking.

But society still likely will circle back to former dogma's if allowed.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-25 06:13:09)

Void · 2024-08-25 08:39:14

It would be good to have a Moon with more water, but I think I might have a way to deal with things even if water is a precious as gold.

This is not so much the philosophy of reuse of valuable hardware.

Instead, we create by mass production a one-time use object, which will be converted into products after it has been delivered in part to an orbit.

This notion is similar to the sort of ore processing facilities I worked in for the Steel Industry.

We made Taconite Pellets for the Steel Mills. We extracted the proper rocks and then extracted the parts of that that were wanted, and then we made little balls of pottery. Those could be shipped to the Mills and their characteristics were favorable for making Iron and Steel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taconite
Image Quote:

Ours were not that rusty though.

The "EngineShips" would be much bigger though, and happily I think that they may make it unnecessary to indulge in advanced machines like Mass Drivers, and Skyhooks.

The steering devices might be brought back to the Moon to be reused, (or not).

Once it has put itself into an orbit somewhere it has to be fetched somehow a bit more to a processing facility in orbit.
Primary products processed from it could be Aluminum and Oxygen

So, then the covered roads populated by robots could mass produce these things.

To use the propellant, may be a bit trickier than the above diagram but I think it might do.
https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ant-source
Quote:

18
I was looking into whether there would be any way to source propellants from the moon itself in support of a future base and space stations in cis-lunar space. I found two documents exploring how aluminum in particular might work in combination with liquid oxygen.
One is by Wickman Spacecraft & Propulsion, who say:
An additional option available with aluminum is to suspend the aluminum powder in gelled LOX to form a monopropellant... As part of our research, we made a small rocket engine fueled by the LOX-aluminum monopropellant... The propellant tank was surrounded by a liquid nitrogen bath to keep the LOX from boiling off. The propellant feed lines ran through a liquid nitrogen bath on their way to the combustion chamber. A piston pushed against the propellant to feed the propellant into the rocket engine chamber. While the thrust was only about a pound, the engine was started and stopped several times without a flashback of the combustion flame front into the propellant tank.
The other is from a document called the Moon Miner's Manifesto, hosted on the website of the Artemis Society International:
Aluminum and oxygen alone will provide a specific impulse somewhat lower than most hydrocarbons. Brower et al. expect a value of 285 seconds... One [engine design] would be to pump aluminum powder as we do fluids. In this case, it will probably be necessary to use a carrier gas along with the powder to keep the aluminum grains from vacuum welding or sticking together from electrostatic forces... Another technique is a hybrid rocket engine using solid aluminum and liquid oxygen. A conceptual design for such an engine was proposed by Brower et al. Their design calls for a hexagonal array of aluminum bars the length of the combustion chamber. Liquid oxygen would be fed down the bars for regenerative cooling before reaching the flame at the bar tips. The engine could use oxygen and aluminum only, or could use tripropellant operation with hydrogen.

So, it seems that the performance of the burn would be better with a bit of Hydrogen, and the Moon may have that after all.

One method to process the blocks after delivery might be a suitable oven, perhaps heated by solar power in orbit.

I would not mind suggestions for improvement.

Done

If this would work, then I wonder if we could do it for Mars/Phobos/Deimos?

Maybe a different chemistry, maybe launch from the tops of the high shield volcanoes like Olympus Mons. You might piggy-back stuff on them that Phobos and Deimos would not supply.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-25 09:03:02)

Void · 2024-08-25 11:06:32

For a factory on the Mono, you might start with a tin shed and put sintered bricks down as a floor. And if it is for robots to work in then you have to provide sufficient life support for those machines. So, then to add protections for the robots as would be required.

You need an energy grid, perhaps some wheeled carts and maybe some hoists.

If the body of the devices was to be Aluminum Oxide, then you have to refine that substance and be able to sinter it into a shape.

Technically this is a payload that in part may also be a part for an engine, the grey part:

Then you would need a "Tensile Wrapper" of some kind, the red part.

The blue part would be the auxiliary thrusters.

The Green part might be a frozen cube of LOX with a bit of water ice, and lots of Aluminum powder. It would be dangerous so you might add that just prior to launch. Things can get quite cold on the Moon, and Sulfur Dioxide may server as a refrigerant to allow you to make a super cold propellant block(s). I hope that at those frozen temperatures it would be somewhat stable, but possible to ignite.

Then you need an ignition process.

So, then the hope is to bring materials for Space Travel and Habitation to a useful orbit to be processed.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-25 11:13:26)

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