Venus

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-02-12 06:08:59

We're heading for Venus: ESA approves EnVision
https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … s_EnVision
The measurements EnVision makes will help unravel key mysteries of our hot neighbour. For example, EnVision will reveal how volcanoes, plate tectonics and asteroid impacts have shaped the Venusian surface, and how geologically active the planet is today. The mission will also investigate the planet's insides, collecting data on the structure and thickness of Venus's core, mantle and crust. Lastly, it will study the weather and climate on Venus, including how they are affected by geological activity on the ground.

Void · 2024-02-12 14:40:58

That is a worthy goal. I think that if no life is discovered, we can make robotic bees, and have them build their own robotic hives that float.

Venus is said to be short of water, but H2SO4 does have Hydrogen. It can be decomposed into H20 and Sulfur Oxides using heat.

A question is where does the Hydrogen in the H2SO4 come from? The solar wind? or the interior of Venus?

If enough H2SO4 can be converted, then Venus would no longer has as strong of a acid nature. Then it could be more compatible with floating structures.

It is possible that eventually the floating bee hives would be able to host launch pads and even habitats for humans.

Done

.

Last edited by Void (2024-02-12 14:43:19)

Void · 2024-02-13 15:24:43

I really am wondering if the major key for Venus is to steal the Hydrogen from the H2S04, to make the environment more desirable. It could be taken and used to make plastics, and water that would be contained in floating habitats. It also could be launched to orbit.

Orbital methods using skyhooks might be able to grab components of the atmosphere of Venus, from orbit, and then bringing up the Hydrogen would make things in orbit suitable.

Metals and Glass type materials could be air braked to orbit and also down to the floating platforms as well.

Extracting these things from Venus they might be sent to our Moon. Possibly the Moon could be a source of metals and glass. Plastics and Paraffin Wax belong to items that could be hard landed onto the Moon. In this case hard landing would be a sort of lithobraking method, from an altitude of the Moon where impact would not destroy the chemical structure of plastics or Paraffin Wax.

It seems that mixing combustible metals from the Moon with Parafin Wax might make a rather good fuel for a Hybrid Rocket, or so I seem to currently think.

Venus without the level of H2SO4 might be an easier place to hang out in in the clouds.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-13 15:28:40)

Void · 2024-02-13 20:26:52

I have a feeling that this post from Calliban works well here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 73#p219273 Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,227
Email
Highly electropositive metals like calcium and sodium, are soluble in ammonia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia#Solvent
Calcium is abundant in lunar highland regolith and rocks.
The resulting solution should be hypergolic in contact with liquid oxygen.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

I have recently been talking about our Moon here as well as Venus.
I am guessing that this will not catch much Hydrogen but may scoop up CO2 and a little Nitrogen.

Venus could make a nice partner for worlds that are "Stony" That could be Mercury, our Moon, many Earth and Mars Crossing asteroids, and also the asteroid Vesta.

If Ammonia could be manufactured in the clouds of Venus or it's orbits, then it might be a good export product to go to the Moon. More manageable than either Hydrogen or Nitrogen.

Also Carbon itself and maybe Paraffin would also be substances for export.

With platforms of Robots, in the atmosphere of Venus, perhaps Skyhooks could be in use to assist the export process..

This video from Isaac Arthur is in reference to skyhooks: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

I have considered a "Snatch" method where a tank lowered on a skyhook of a rotavator type could dip down scoop some atmosphere into its tank and then spin it up to orbit. Extracting the Carbon, the Carbon could be hard landed on the Moon. CO and O2 is yet another possible way to have propulsion on the Moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus

A rocket and skyhook method might be suitable for bringing Ammonia to orbit. To manufacture the Ammonia, Hydrogen would need to be extracted from the Sulfuric Acid, and then bonded to Nitrogen.

Since Venus does not have a magnetic field, the solar wind can give momentum to skyhooks to lift mass to orbit.
And the solar wind could be used to move cargos from Venus orbits to our Moon and Earth orbits.

The Europeans even have an air breathing electric rocket that could also use Nitrogen as a propellant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher … propulsion

So, in my notions you have platforms in the atmosphere of Venus, which mostly support robots, and maybe a few humans, and then have spin gravity habitats in orbit of Venus.

If you could extract Ammonia and CO2 from the atmosphere of Venus, you could have very good radiation shielding in the orbits of Venus.

If it is possible to reduce the Sulfuric Acid of Venus by this process then Venus may become much more habitable, in it's atmosphere over time.

It seems probable that the Hydrogen in the Sulfuric Acid of Venus is replenished either by the Solar Wind or volcanism belching gasses from the interior of Venus. If so then Venus can become a source of Ammonia, Carbon, Water, CO2, and of course Nitrogen.

This if imported to our Moon would make a Moon Industrial level world much more possible.

And many propulsive methods to lift materials off the Moon and in part to Venus could exist.

Done.

Isaac Arthur has his own vision of Venus in the future which is not that different: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … ORM=WRVORC

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-13 21:09:11)

Void · 2024-02-14 20:53:59

I am really quite excited about the potential of Venus at this point. Robots changes the situation and the idea that Hydrogen could be extracted from the clouds of Venus.

The more Hydrogen extracted from the atmosphere, the less Sulfuric Acid will exist.

That Hydrogen could make chemicals such as water and Ammonia, for use in the clouds of Venus, and the orbits of Venus. And I think that "Dry Rocks" may be a good partnership with Venus.

A list of Venus crossing asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_V … or_planets

Those that I have looked at are generally 3 km or less in diameter, and I expect that they are stony.

If we can extract compounds containing Carbon, Nitrogen, Hydrogen, that is pretty much what these little worlds would need. These little rocks could supply Venus with materials that come from rocky asteroids. Launching materials from these tiny worlds should be rather easy, and aerobraking into the orbits and the clouds of Venus, are likely possible.

Granted, I am still interested in stony objects such as Mercury, Luna, some asteroids, and Vesta.

It is an odd concept of removing Hydrogen making Venus more useful also then makes it possible to have water in orbits, and to send to stony worlds.

But if life should be found in the clouds of Venus, that would be more important to me.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-14 21:17:09)

Void · 2024-02-15 08:41:17

Water is very important of course, so how do you get water on Venus?

https://www.universetoday.com/36291/is- … -on-venus/
Quote:

Astronomers have detected that the atmosphere of Venus consists of 0.002% water vapor. Compare that to the Earth’s atmosphere, which contains 0.40% water vapor.

So, some is there. The water most likely comes from the high heat at the base of the clouds that decomposes H2SO4 into SO2 or SO3 (Not sure), and H20.

Query "Heat decomposes H2SO4": https://www.bing.com/search?q=Heat+deco … 1C&pc=U531

An article that supports that: https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Meetings/ … 0KOREA.pdf

OK, I have something: https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/que … to-heating
Quote:

Sulfuric acid, H2SO4
, having an enthalpy of formation of −814 kJ/mol
, is quite stable and won't decompose easily.
According to A Kinetic Study of the Decomposition of Spent Sulfuric Acids at High Temperature, Dominique Schwartz, Roger Gadiou, Jean-François Brilhac, Gilles Prado, and Ginès Martinez:
The decomposition of H2SO4
to H2O
and SO3
is predominant between 400
and 700 K
. The formation of a small amount of gaseous sulfuric acid can be observed. Above 673 K
, the equilibrium constant of the reaction R1 becomes higher than 1 and increases rapidly.
H2SO4↽−−⇀H2O+SO3(R1)
The second process is the reduction of sulfur trioxide to SO2
. This endothermic reaction needs a high temperature to take place, the equilibrium constant of the reaction R2 being higher than 1 above 1050 K
.
SO3↽−−⇀SO2+12O2(R2)
So, you only have to worry when the temperature reaches 400 K
, or 127 ∘C
(false precision).

So, heat may get you more water out of the Sulfuric Acid.

If you have a method to extract water from the atmosphere and reject Sulfuric Acid, then you could do that passively, relying on the high heat at the base of the clouds to keep making more if tiny amounts of water vapor.

I want it understood that I would not favor terraforming Venus if life is found on it, in the clouds.

Obviously if you had an active process, you could decompose H2SO4 actively to extract water.

I believe that the source of H2S04 on Venus is UV light which causes Sulfur Oxide compounds to react with H20 to create H2SO4.

So, if you want a less Acid cloud formation on Venus, you may;
1) Stop the UV.
2) Convert H2SO4 into SO2/SO3 and H20 at a faster rate than the UV can convert it back to H2SO4.
3) Convert the H2SO4 into SO2/SO3 and H20 and then remove the water from the atmosphere.

I think that #3 is the more attainable option. But it is very likely that the Hydrogen is being resupplied to Venus either from the solar wind or from volcanism or both. That then requires a continuous removal, but that is not a bad thing a continual removal would be a continuing supply of Hydrogen/Water.

One removal method would be to containerize the water into floating platforms sealed from the atmosphere.
Another is to remove the water to orbit. But then you are lifting a lot of Oxygen in the water, so I suggest that you make Ammonia and remove that to orbit as the Hydrogen and Nitrogen in the Ammonia is valuable in orbit.

I we suppose that we can get silicate materials/metals to orbit of Venus also then we have what we need, if we also get some Carbon from Venus. It may be possible to mine the surface of Venus, but maybe very hard to do it.

In my previous post I gave this list:

A list of Venus crossing asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_V … or_planets

These seem like good potential partners for Venus. If you can get water, Nitrogen, and Carbon to them, from Venus, then you might mine them for Metals and glasses, and you might aerobrake some of those materials to Venus. Both it's orbits and into the atmosphere.

While an atmospheric presence may alone seek to extract Hydrogen/Water from Venus, an orbital community may be of assistance as well.

Solar concentrating mirrors may assist in breaking H2SO4 into SO2/SO3 and H20. Some glasses are tolerant of Sulfuric Acid.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … r-BB1ijuqw Quote:

Sulfuric acid, H 2 SO 4, is not able to dissolve glass, which is why it can be safely stored in a glass container. This is because sulfuric acid is simply not corrosive enough to eat through the extremely strong silicon dioxide (SiO 2) bonds that are the main component found in glass. See more

So, we have a substance we could make an oven out of to decompose H2SO4. While the environment of Venus has good solar energy on the sunward side, some assistance from orbital mirrors might push the rate of conversion up sharply.

Like many people now, I have thought of floating platforms for Venus. I suppose an island is a start, and then later, perhaps a ring that entirely encompasses Venus. That then having farms in it, perhaps hydroponic. But if you had the floatation for it why not lakes and ponds, probably rather shallow.

From there you might even shell the whole of Venus, pushing the toxic atmosphere below the shell and having only an atmosphere of about .5 bar, with a composition of N2 and O2. But doing that would have complications. Let's leave that potential for a later consideration.

If you subdue the Sulfuric Acid then you might build from a wider spectrum of materials, including more metals perhaps.

A favorable thing about extracting organic chemicals from Venus, is that you could use the solar wind to transport them to other stony worlds, such as stony asteroids, our Moon, Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and perhaps Vesta.

Some of the stony asteroids may have orbits that make it relatively easy to send materials to aerobrake into the atmosphere or orbits of Venus.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-02-15 09:34:36)

Void · 2024-02-15 10:31:36

I have to start to agree with Isaac Arthur that the potential of Venus is very large.

Isaac Arthur has his own vision of Venus in the future which is not that different: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … ORM=WRVORC

But I think the notion of reduction of the Sulfuric Acid Clouds is a very big upgrade if it can be accomplished.

I would like to be able to "Snatch" atmosphere into orbit using Skyhook methods, and perhaps Adsorption methods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adsorption

If a powdery substance were cooled down and then swung though the upper atmosphere of Venus, it might be able to adsorb atmospheric Molecules.

And if Ammonia could be made in floating platforms, it is possible that a suborbital launch of tanks of Ammonia could be grabbed up to orbit by a similar process.

If stony worlds such as asteroids and our Moon could donate stony materials to Venus, then Venus could donate organics to them.

It looks rather good.

And to do the orbital lifting the engine would be a sort of water wheel process driven either by the solar wind or perhaps by photon sails as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-15 10:39:57)

Void · 2024-02-15 20:32:46

I have been reconsidering my previous evaluation of Venus and giving it an eventual upgrade.

I still think that it could be prudent to start with more robots than humans in the atmospheric habitats.

But over time if the trade Venus<>Rocky Worlds could be bootstrapped into existence. I think that the value of Venus could expand very much.

If the snatch to orbit could work with Skyhooks, then a very large supply of Carbon and Oxygen would be made available. This could support many things including CO+O2 Rocket propulsion which although not the most powerful may do well enough in many situations.

Carbon might be hard landed on the Moon and also delivered to rocky asteroids, those locations would have their own Oxygen from rocks, and so, the CO+O2 propulsion could be useful in those places.

The idea that hot ovens could extract water from H2SO4, improves things. Both because you would want the water and because you might be able to reduce the acidity of the atmosphere of Venus over time and make it more habitable to Humans and their machines.

The fact that there are lots of rocky worlds in the inner solar system then makes it plausible to think to send materials derived from rocky worlds to Venus to build habitats in the atmosphere and in orbit.

A Venus with reduced acidity, and where you could bring in virtually endless materials from rocky worlds, is potentially much better than making Spin gravity machines in the vacuum of space. This is if humans can be healthy in a 90% gravity situation. It seems more likely than not. It might be similar to a 150-pound person weighing 135 pounds. They can be relatively healthy in any case. But it needs to be discovered.

Then if Venus could export Ammonia, it would have something else of significant value.

The solar wind could assist in exporting these items to rocky worlds including our Moon, and these places would be made much more habitable as well.

If it holds true it will be a very good picture.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-15 20:47:32)

Void · 2024-02-16 10:43:31

I was going to Seach for growing wood on Venus and found little materials. (Expected).

But I did find this article about potential life processes on Venus in the atmosphere.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 190650.htm
Quote:

Could acid-neutralizing life-forms make habitable pockets in Venus' clouds?
Date:
December 20, 2021
Source:
Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Ammonia is mentioned as neutralizing Sulfuric Acid. They are discussing the possible method that life might exist in the clouds. Although I would prefer a Venus without life, if it is found it needs proper treatment from humans, and we likely have to "Rewire" our intentions.

For now, though I will suppose life does not exist, but in the absence of life, somehow the disequilibrium of the situation can cause odd chemistry without life. Just because something is a certain way on Earth which has life, may not indicate that a non-living world could not have different results from inputs.

It seems on Venus getting water would not be nearly as hard as I previously expected. You might need a glass lined oven, probably electric heated, and then a condenser to cool the results. That should yield water and SO2 or SO3.

In order to grow wood in the clouds of Venus then you would have water. For the growth of wood safety measures would not need to be nearly as good as is needed for humans. So, expenses might be reduced.

Wood and other plant products could be an export product to orbit and to other worlds, if you had a cost-effective method of launch to orbit.

The bigger your cloud gardens would be the more such could host landing and launch facilities.

Unlike lifting a fluid material to orbit, wood would be a solid, perhaps easier to handle long term.
Urea is an idea that I got from Calliban. I believe that this one could also be a solid in many conditions.

Both of these have freeloading Oxygen, which is less valuable, if you can get it elsewhere in space. But the wood has Carbon and Hydrogen also, and the Urea has Nitrogen and Hydrogen as well. The cost of lifting the oxygen may be paid back by having substances that can be stable long term in low temperature low pressure conditions.

The need to lift wood to orbit is reduced, if a Rotavator Skyhook method could scoop up atmosphere to orbit efficiently this may yield CO2 and maybe a small amount of Nitrogen.

In that case, wood grown in the atmosphere of Venus would not be exported, but used in the clouds of Venus. Then the rocket propelled export could be Ammonia or Urea. For this a Rotavator Skyhook might help anyway.

So, if you could scoop Venus's air into orbit and also lift Ammonia or Urea to orbit you would have the bulk of what you would need to grow wood in orbit.

So, in either method the export of wood and Urea to stony worlds may be of great value. Solids that could be stored at low temperatures and low pressure, I think.

I am not a chemist at all, but I suspect that in the clouds of Venus, wood would be broken down, so if it were to be used as structure it would need some protection.

Last edited by Void (2024-02-16 11:19:16)

Calliban · 2024-02-16 11:18:12

I think the idea of Venus cloud cities is hype, that is poorly thought out. To put the problem into perspective, the Hindenburg was the largest aircraft ever to fly and was bigger than the Titanic. Its total lift was a measley 200 tonnes. Most of that was taken up by its frame, fabric, fuel and other structural components. It carried about 40 passengers with very little spare payload capacity for baggage. Can you imagine an airship big enough to lift a whole town? Or a factory that actually makes stuff? The whole idea of building an independant branch of humanity hanging from balloons is just absurd.

Any human habitation of Venus requires that we cool it down enough to be able to get to the surface. That might not actually be hugely difficult once we have industrial capabilities in space. We would need to fill the upper atmosphere with enough reflective dust to allow surface temperatures to cool beneath the liquidus point of CO2. At that point, the crushing atmosphere will start to condense, forming liquid CO2 seas on the surface. The crust will shrink and fracture, allowing much of the L-CO2 to enter the deep rocks. At some point, it will be possible to settle the surface without being cooked or crushed. How long that will take I don't know. But the amount of fine reflective dust we need is in the order of millions of tonnes per year. If we begin iron extraction from lunar regolith, the result will be a surplus of titanium dioxide. This could be crushed into fine powder, with packages put on an orbit that intersects Venus. As the fine dust burns up in the upper atmosphere, the ultra-fine nanometre rutile particles will remain aloft for years, reflecting sunlight. After levels build up to a desired point, we only need continue injecting enough to make up for the rate of fall out.

At some point, the sulphuric acid in the atmosphere will begin to rain out and will react with the abundant igneous rocks on the surface to form sulphates. The water released will be trapped within the hygroscopic sulphates. But Venus is known to be highly volcanic. If we can find volcanic vents on the surface, these will provide water vapour that we can use. The planet as whole will still be a dry Vulcan like place. But by tapping volcanic vent gases, a large population of humans can harvest enough water for their needs.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-16 11:24:34)

Void · 2024-02-16 11:23:09

I am not inclined to emphasize humans in the atmosphere of Venus, rather robots. And I am working on a case for that. I intend to have the major populations in orbit of Venus, at least at first. I have thought that the organics from Venus can be mated with the silicates of Venus crossing asteroids.

A binary contest of trash canning the notion is not appropriate in this case. We can always say no, if the preliminary results are unfavorable.

The idea that we can spend centuries investing in a project without getting gain from it is not realistic. The looters would get all over the project easily and convert the pioneer efforts into a slaving process of technical peoples.

My objective is to gain materials from Venus, not turn it into an Earth, at least not immediately.

The value of the Nitrogen, Hydrogen, and Carbon of Venus could be immense, if a proper set of methods for extraction could be found.

These chemicals delivered to Space, perhaps as Wood and Urea, would make the inner stony worlds much more habitable. This would include Venus Crossing Asteroids, our Moon, and other stony asteroids into the asteroid belt. Also, it may be possible to interact with Mercury with Wood and Urea products. Moving metal and glass objects to Venus could rely in part in their existing orbital energy, and modifications that would cause an intercept to an aero burn either to orbit of Venus or injection into the atmosphere of Venus.

Plastics are also another product that might be made from the materials of Venus. Yet another solid.

In order to survive in the atmosphere of Venus, structures would be benefited by glass. It may be harder to mine the surface of Venus for it and for metals, than to get it from rocky worlds.

If it is possible maintain structure in the atmosphere of Venus, and also export wood, Urea, and Plastics it's economy could be very strong.

As for robots in the structures they may be humanoid in some cases, or might be like bees in other cases, capable of flight. A bazar notion would be a sun following flying robot. I confess, I don't know the value of such a thing, except to monitor the weather, but it is an interesting notion.

They may be of a small size in some cases if that is useful. Human presence in the atmosphere of Venus would depend on safety and convenience. If those are solved, then it is OK. Otherwise only Robots would normally be in the clouds of Venus.

Using stony materials delivered to build orbital structure, it could eventually be possible to drop the air pressure of Venus to 1/2 bar, if desired.

However, I think this would stimulate further volcanism, as the subsurface of the planet may "Fizz".

The question of how Hydrogen is in the atmosphere of Venus is important. Does it come from the solar wind or from the interior of Venus?

Some of it must also drift into space. If not resupplied, then the Sulfuric Acid clouds should be unlikely to exist at this time.

If the Hydrogen comes in part from the Solar Wind interacting with the atmosphere of Venus, then we have an almost infinite supply of Hydrogen and so then water, for the inner solar system.

This article mentions water loss from Venus: https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 017-0362-8
So, if the solar wind does not add water, then the Hydrogen for the Sulfuric Acid must come from Volcanism.

But I think that production of water from the solar wind is possible in a manner similar to that of production on our Moon and the Asteroids.

I think that such a process is somewhat supported for Mars in this article: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 20JE006666
Quote:

Plain Language Summary
Hydrogen atoms in the uppermost region of Mars’ tenuous atmosphere extend far into space, where they are directly exposed to the incoming solar wind. Protons in the solar wind collide with the hydrogen, producing high-speed neutral atoms that travel into the atmosphere of Mars. While some of the high-speed atoms deposit energy into the upper atmosphere, others undergo enough collisions with atmospheric gases to be reflected back to space. In this paper, we present a detailed study of the reflected particles using observations from the Mars Atmosphere and Volatile EvolutioN mission. We show that there is a larger fraction of reflected particles at high solar zenith angles and at low solar wind speeds. We also find that the energies of the reflected particles are consistent with predictions from models of the Mars-solar wind interaction.

This could feed life on both Mars and Venus, as Hydrogen and CO2 could be enough to support life without photosynthesis.

I feel that it could be possible that if the solar wind is depositing Hydrogen into Venus and Mars, a certain type of artificial magnetic field may be able to enhance the process. It would need to be leaky enough to allow the solar wind in on the sunward side, but clingy enough to reduce Hydrogen loss on the leeward side of the planet.

Chemicals from Venus, in the form perhaps of wood, Urea, and plastics among others, would make the inner solar system much more habitable for humans, and this could include our Moon.

The inner solar system has by far much better solar energy than the outer solar system.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-16 11:57:49)

Void · 2024-02-17 09:58:52

OK, I am going to admit that things that would be needed for Venus would be hard. Floating platforms, and also skyhooks to lift mass. We may very well not be ready to implement those with profit yet.

So, I think something similar can be implemented for Mars, with much less effort and if that eventually goes well then, an attempt on Venus could be done building on learned skills from Mars.

Mars continues to be more attractive for now. But I don't think of "Or", rather an eventual "And".

Done

Void · 2024-04-14 12:06:58

This is of interest for Venus: https://phys.org/news/2024-04-bepicolom … egion.html
Quote:

APRIL 12, 2024
Editors' notes
BepiColombo detects escaping oxygen and carbon in unexplored region of Venus's magnetosphere
by Europlanet Media Centre

I am interested in capturing Carbon and Oxygen and Nitrogen from the atmosphere of Venus, so perhaps there is a way, dealing with the solar wind.

I wonder if the "L2" location has the tail sweeping though it?

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-14 12:09:48)

Void · 2024-04-19 18:33:44

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 2cd53&ei=1

Quote:

Venus Is Leaking Carbon and Oxygen—and Scientists Don't Know Why
Story by Jess Thomson • 1d • 3 min read
Our closest planetary neighbor Venus keeps leaking carbon and oxygen into space, mystifying scientists.
Carbon and oxygen, among other gases, are being stripped from Venus' atmosphere after being accelerated to speeds fast enough to escape the planet's gravity, according to a new study in the journal Nature Astronomy.
"This is the first time that positively charged carbon ions have been observed escaping from Venus' atmosphere," study author Lina Hadid, a researcher at the Plasma Physics Laboratory (LPP) at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique (CNRS) in France, said in a statement.
Earth has a magnetic field that protects our atmosphere from being stripped away into space by the sun's solar wind. Venus has no such protection as a result of its internal core being cooler than ours, and therefore not being able to move as much and generate a magnetic field. It does possess a weak "induced magnetosphere", however, which is formed as a result of the charged solar wind slamming into the Venusian atmosphere and ionizing the atoms.
Venus's atmosphere is comprised of 96.5 percent carbon dioxide and 3.5 percent nitrogen, along with trace amounts of other gases like oxygen and sulfur dioxide. Despite being the second planet from the sun, Venus is the hottest planet in our solar system with a surface temperature of over 864 degrees Fahrenheit, due to the powerful greenhouse effect of its atmosphere, and also has an atmospheric pressure of 93 times that of Earth's.
Expand article logo Continue reading
BepiColombo passed through this weak magnetosphere for around 90 minutes in August 2021 as it adjusted its course en route to Mercury, and detected that charged carbon and oxygen ions appeared to be escaping the atmosphere.
Scientists still aren't sure exactly why this happens, but it may be because the solar wind hitting the atmosphere accelerated the ions to such a speed that they could escape the planet's gravity, pouring out into space.

I would like to see if we could capture some of this loosely bound molecules.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-19 18:37:25)

tahanson43206 · 2024-04-19 20:50:37

For Void re your observation in Post #464...

As you continue your investigations of the reported discovery, and other future reports about Venus, please look for any signs those molecules driven away from Venus might be drifting into Earth's orbit.

This flow may have been going on for a long time.

There may be a huge quantity of these molecules just wandering in the Solar System beyond Venus.

And (while I'm thinking about it) thanks for finding and posting these reports!

PS ... you have not yet chosen to make an appearance in the new test forum ... It is looking better and better every passing day. SpaceNut just created a new test user so he could learn how to promote that test user, or otherwise do Admin things with it. RobertDyck just joined and he has the opportunity to learn Moderator features. GW Johnson joined (with a little coaching from kbd512 and me) ... If ** he ** could do it, ** anyone ** can do it.

GW still has his slide rule handy for when the computer goes down, which can and has happened.

(th)

Void · 2024-04-20 07:14:15

Thanks for your interest (th). Just now, I am focused on personal matters. Getting into the next month I may have time. I don't mind if you inquire again.

For now, though I took a look and some person(s) have done a wiki about atmospheric mining. I like that as it is somewhat assuring that it is not a completely foolish thing to contemplate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_mining
Quote:

Feasibility of atmospheric mining
While atmospheric mining of outer planets has not yet begun and would be difficult with current technology, there is some consensus that the technical challenges are not insurmountable. Excluding the sun, the reserves of hydrogen and helium in particular of any one of the outer planets is orders of magnitude greater than all other known celestial bodies in the Solar System combined. Thus, if and when atmospheric mining becomes feasible, the potential benefits could be enormous.

Isaac Arthur has explained that the idea of mining Helium 3 on the Moon for power is questionable. If you have fusion power, then you can go get your fuels from the outer planets.

Also, Helion is going to be able to make tritium which can decay into Helium 3, anyway.

Quote:

Methods of atmospheric mining
Various methods have been proposed to extract resources from the atmospheres of the giant planets. Due to the inherent risks in travelling into the atmosphere of a giant planet, most such proposals involve sending only robotic craft into the atmosphere, with any human presence limited to space stations based on one of the planet's moons and/or orbiting at a safe distance.
Aerostats
An aerostat would be a buoyant station in the atmosphere that gathers and stores gases. A vehicle would transfer the gases from the aerostat to an orbital station above the planet.[1]
Scoopers
A scooper would be a vehicle that gathers and transfers gases from the atmosphere to an orbital station.[1]
Skyhook
A Skyhook (structure) is similar to a space elevator, such a device would be used to pump gas to an orbital propellant depot.
Cruisers
A cruiser would be a vehicle in the atmosphere that gathers and stores gases. A smaller vehicle would transfer the gases from the cruiser to an orbital station.[1]

So, that wiki is a pretty good find, I feel.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-20 07:22:59)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-06-01 13:56:52

Japan loses contact with Akatsuki, humanity's only active Venus probe

https://www.space.com/jaxa-loses-contac … enus-probe

Void · 2024-08-14 09:57:15

I want to migrate this material to this topic where it may be more appropriate: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 65#p225765 Quote:

Yesterday 08:31:37
Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,479
Email
While I value your analysis and do not dispute it as valid to an intention, it is now thought that Titan may have sand dunes of comet dust at it equator. So, that could be alternate materials.
For Venus, one scheme to terraform it would be to hit it with a comet to heat it up and swell the atmosphere, to make the atmosphere be lost to space. I would consider swelling the atmosphere, using thermal terraform methods such as the rods and greenhouse gasses. But then contrary to allowing the solar wind to strip the atmosphere, perhaps protect it with an artificial magnetic field. Then to capture the gasses into artificial habitats. Aerobraking terrestrial crossing asteroid materials into the expanded atmosphere.
But this would first require that no life is in the clouds.
It is possible that Venus has an underground ocean of water that replenishes its hydrogen, so then Hydrogen would be available from that, or captured from the solar wind, or transported in from outer solar system water sources.
And yes, perhaps someday a method to move some of that atmosphere to other worlds could perhaps come into existence. Mars and perhaps our Moon come to mind.
As I can see it orbital energy is altitude above a gravity field, and inertia of a mass. So expanded atmosphere may be easier to capture into an orbit and then move to another location. Clark tech, of course, but there is a glimmer of hope on this one.

Done
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 09:34:45)

I am very serious that if life is in the clouds, then that is the most important and valuable thing. In that case, I feel that the use of Venus as I will suggest, should not be done.

But in the absence of life discovery on Venus, I feel that Venus with terrestrial crossing asteroids could be quite an asset for the human race.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Venus
Quote:

Direct Removal of Atmosphere
The thinning of the Venusian atmosphere could be attempted by a variety of methods, possibly in combination. Directly lifting atmospheric gas from Venus into space would proba… See more

In my view, removing atmosphere from Venus is to be done to get the Atmospheric substances, not to turn Venus into another Earth.

Where these is an Earth-Similar environment in the high clouds, it might be desired to improve that environment as well.

If efforts were made to heat the atmosphere of Venus, then the elevation of the Earth-Similar environment would end up at a higher altitude.

Additional efforts to change the environment of Venus could be to reduce the acid in the atmosphere and increase the water vapor or water.

But as it is already, I feel that it could be possible to alter the substances of Terrestrial crossing asteroids and to aerobrake them into the orbit of Venus and into the atmosphere of Venus, both as desired. This may be desirable as an effort to remove asteroids that pose a danger to terrestrial planets.

The asteroid population inside of the orbit of the asteroid belt appears to be continually replenished. It may include some "Dark Comets", and also, we think at this time that some of the regolith is impregnated with Hydration from the solar wind and some asteroid materials may contain Carbon.

Dark Comets: https://www.sciencealert.com/mysterious … th-objects
Quote:

Mysterious 'Dark Comets' Could Be The Majority of Near-Earth Objects
Space
22 July 2024
ByMichelle Starr

Dark Comets would not be a need, but rather a convenience to this plan.

A high level of robotics would be helpful to this plan.

While I am interested in extracting atmosphere at very high orbital altitudes, and think there may be ways, I am also interested in the possibility of SSTO Starship for Venus.

Elon Musk has said that if the gravitation of Earth was just a little less, then SSTO Starship might work out OK. Perhaps Venus at 90% of Earth's gravity would be suitable.

I presume that most likely Starship then is launched from atmospheric platforms at 1/3 to 1 bar of atmosphere.

It then bellies flops from orbit to perhaps a layer down to perhaps 10 bars, and then is made to float like an airship. Then airships haul it back up to the launch platforms.

But of Course, this version of Starship will have to be made tolerant to Sulfuric Acid. That may not be very easy.

One of the possible uses for Starship would be to transport Methane or maybe better, Ammonia manufactured from the atmosphere of Venus to orbit. This then could be reacted with Oxygen from asteroids to create water and Nitrogen or Carbon.

Asteroid materials to aerobrake into the Venus environment could be composed of refined metals as backbones and shields, and also Oxides as protective ablative materials.

Methods to work with asteroids might be pioneered by working with Phobos as part of a Martian project.
Between this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 76#p225676
And this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 67#p225767
Are materials for dealing with Phobos, in this topic: "Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff."

So, the concept of joining a Venus effort with an Asteroid effort seems sensible to me at this time.

But I would also like to try to achieve orbital atmospheric condensers as well.

These would be enclosures that could be cold inside, where thin atmosphere could enter and be condensed. Part of the condensation process might also include planned chemical reactions, such as providing Peroxides to catch Hydrogen in a chemical reaction to provide a Hydrogen containing compound such as water that could then be condensed.

As a start imagine a coin shaped enclosure. The coins edge will be presented to the sun, and the faces of the coin will face the north and south poles. The coin edge will be well insulated from the sun's rays which give heating. So, the interior should be very cold.

But as atmosphere may be condensed, a method must be provided to maintain orbit. So, that requires methods.

Anyway, the hope is to then condense atmosphere in orbit, and perhaps to also capture some of the Hydrogen and perhaps Helium of the solar wind.

But I need a break.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-14 11:06:46)

Void · 2024-08-15 10:36:55

I suppose that if the notion of mining the atmosphere of Venus is entertained, then looking on the internet for other people's ideas has some value.

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … atmosphere
Quote:

For example, in the cloud layers between ~ 50 and 70 km, large concentrations of sulfuric acid (H2SO4
) and smaller concentrations of hydrogen sulfide (H2S
) were detected and it would be possible to extract hydrogen, sulfur and oxygen from it by electrolysis and the use of reducing catalysts. Similar can be done with carbon dioxide to extract oxygen and carbon in a two-step electrolysis of the atmosphere or photosynthesis.

This could be helpful, reacting Sulfuric Acid with Carbon: https://byjus.com/question-answer/write … on-carbon/
Quote:

Solution
Reaction between Conc. Sulphuric acid and Carbon:
Concentrated sulphuric acid reacts with non-metal to form their respective oxides.
When concentrated Sulphuric Acid
reacts with Carbon
, it will give Carbon dioxide gas
, Water
& Sulphur dioxide gas
as a product.

I took a look at reacting Sulfuric Acid with Carbon Monoxide. Not surprised that I did not find a lot. Two dangerous chemicals and the outcome desired is water, with a byproduct of CO2 and SO2. On Earth this is not so much a benefit.

So, that might explain to me that CO is not so likely to Co-exist in the clouds of Venus.

Anyway, a method to extract water from the clouds of Venus is not that farfetched.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-15 11:09:12)

Void · 2024-08-15 19:23:29

As it happens a couple of videos about Phosphine and Ammonia possibly in the atmosphere of Venus and why they might be there.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/110167990
Quote:

Signs of Strange Life on Venus
New
7 hours ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nbYJixXRs
Quote:

Geological Evidence from Venus Suggests It Almost Became Earth
12K views
3 hours ago

I am sincere that if there is life on Venus and especially if it uses Sulfuric Acid as a solvent, I think the is the value of Venus by far.

But otherwise, I am warming up to the idea of cloud cities and cities in orbit of Venus.

The idea that some asteroids materials could be aero braked into Venus helps the notion.

I think the idea of converting H2SO4 into H2O + SO2, and CO2, appears to be relatively easy.

So, I upgrade interest in Venus in any case.

But if life does exist, I think we would want to study it and conserve it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-15 19:31:55)

Void · 2024-08-16 07:42:10

I should have like this to be here, so I guess I will put it here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 30#p225830

Today 07:21:40
Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,488
Email
I am getting more enthusiastic about habitats in atmosphere, where originally, I wanted orbital. I still want both but in atmosphere may really make sense.
I am going to do a betting guess. 10% chance that there is life in the atmosphere of Venus. 90% no life, but when life does not exist, a chemically active planet environment will have life mimicking process. To discover truth on this, will be important for detecting life on Exoplanets.
I am thinking that a ring structure in the atmosphere of Venus may be desirable. While I think that eventually it will be possible to mine the surface of Venus, I think that asteroids in the terrestrial orbits may be of a very good use for building a civilization on Venus.
It could be possible eventually that the bulk of the Hydrogen in the atmosphere could be converted to make water.
The ring platform for the most part could only require a wet floor to grow algas on. And plastic domes above that as floatation devices.
I think it could be possible that the Algae producing Oxygen, then the Oxygen being vented, then using Sulfuric Acid to react against the Algae. I think this would produce more water and reduce the amount of Sulfuric Acid.
But I am also interested in VELO in orbits of Venus. OK, here is a concept:
The coin shaped condenser would have cooling faces North and South, and may try to use capacitive forces to condense gasses to the inner surface.
But it is not proven and tested.
Done
The tow line is to be connected to some kind of propulsive device.
The Skyhook is optional and might have value.
Done
Last edited by Void (Today 07:53:11)
Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-08-16 07:47:04)

Void · 2024-08-16 11:45:53

From the previous post:

But I am also interested in VELO in orbits of Venus. OK, here is a concept:

The scoop being more or less a funnel, perhaps a bit like a scramjet scoop. I am not looking for combustion though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet

The condenser being of undefined thickness. The walls of the "Coin" facing north and south as per orientation to the sun, could develop a very low temperature.

The north and south walls of the "Coin" may be as a capacitor. If you had electron beams on the funnel that suck electrons from the funnel and beam them to the coin faces, then a (-) charge should be on the outer face of these walls. The gas molecules coming in may tend to stick electrostatically to the inside north and south faces of the wall. I am presuming that the north and south coin walls have electrical insulation on them.

It may also pay off to coat the insides of the walls with an adsorption substance, Carbon might do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adsorption

As for the tow line I show in the drawing, I am hoping something that can sail on the solar wind, but also, I guess a Photon Sail might work.

When the sorption pump is filled, (The "Coin"), then a desorption process is needed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desorption
This will then need a subsidiary process to bottle up the results as a raw material to be processed into resources.

It is not impossible that not only the atmosphere of Venus could be captured, but also perhaps Hydrogen and Helium from the solar wind, depending on side of the planet and altitude. Helium would be quite valuable, as of course water and Carbon and Nitrogen would be.

So, then the source of raw materials will be terrestrial crossing asteroids, the Atmosphere of Venus, both from orbit if possible and in the clouds, and possibly even to mine the surface of Venus.

Returning to the clouds of Venus, I am wondering about a process where a lifting air glider, is created from asteroid materials and then enters the atmosphere of Venus. Then to catch it somehow, perhaps on the 10-bar level but even possibly skidding to a landing on the surface of Venus. Better to catch it at the 10-bar level, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_body
Image Quote:

No wheels though or engine. If you did want to skip them on the atmosphere to catch to orbit of Venus, the I suppose you need an engine.
Metal Frame, I expect and Ceramic heat Shield, more likely.

And then those might be rendered into structure in orbit or in the clouds of Venus.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-16 12:11:58)

tahanson43206 · 2024-08-16 12:15:17

Void, since you've been thinking about Venus recently, I thought this might be of possible interest... I caught a hint of something about computer chips fabricated to function at 600 Celsius. The context was some speculation about a lander for Venus. I don't remember what the temperatures are at the surface of Venus, except they are hot enough to melt some materials. If you have a few minutes to investigate this hint, I'd be interested in the results. (th)

Void · 2024-08-16 12:50:30

Yes, I have seen that sort of information.

Give 50-200 years and the technology to mine the surface of Venus and bring the materials up to the clouds and maybe even orbit could come into existence.

Generally power sources on the surface are windmills. But it may be that microwaves could be beamed down from above.

If you had a crater and put a roof over it, you might be able to air condition the interior. That would not be for humans to dwell in but to protect machines, and to perhaps generate liquids from the atmosphere. If you landed an aircraft, it could carry down a cryogenic liquid with it, or it could get filled up at a propellant station. The Steam engine power would allow it to carry a load of mined raw materials up to the clouds.

That is if a fluid like liquid Nitrogen or CO2 could boil at those pressures and temperatures. I have not checked on that completely.

But this would be robotics of an alien sort of technology we would have to invent. The environment down there is just horrible.

And yes, it appears that now they are getting close to the electronics for robots that could deal with the temperatures.

https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/nasa- … %20vessels.

Asteroid materials may be easier, but to study the surface of Venus would be nice. There just could be fossils of life from long ago, provided that the crust of Venus has not been resurfaced, and that there was life, ever.

Done

I recall people on this site also talking about dropping a cable down from the clouds to scoop up regolith. That is also a hard ask to make work though, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-08-16 12:54:15)

Void · 2024-08-17 09:53:21

If it were possible to extract molecules from an upper atmosphere of a planet, I guess understanding how that atmosphere works may be important. I have more ignorance than I would like at this point.

For Venus and Mars, the solar wind impacts mostly on one side of the atmospheres of those planets. The planets have rotations, which also will influence the trajectories of molecules bouncing upward from their atmospheres. If the bounce is random, the spin is not random. So, energy from the combination may allow spin assisted bounces to go higher, I think.

So, things to think about.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-17 09:55:54)

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