Politics, Religion & Social Stability - A Supplementary Religion for Mars

Scott G. Beach · 2003-11-08 01:09:13

I have proposed that dozens of terrestrial nations join together to build and operate a prototype Martian settlement. My proposal (The Euthenia Project) is posted on the web at http://www.geocities.com/scott956282743. The prototype settlement (The City of Euthenia) would consist of 92 nation-sponsored neighborhoods, eight experimental neighborhoods, and five municipal centers.

The nationally sponsored neighborhoods would each contain about 100 people. Some neighborhoods would be composed predominantly of Catholics. Other neighborhoods might be composed predominantly of Protestants, Hindus, Moslems, Jews, Buddhists, etcetera.

People from such diverse religious traditions might find it difficult to work together to construct a new culture that could be transplanted to Mars, yet that is the ultimate goal of The City of Euthenia. The people of Euthenia might be able to create a foundation for consensus and cooperation by agreeing that (1) their children will attend schools owned and operated by the City government, (2) those schools will be supported by City tax revenues, and (3) children will all learn a set of ideas that could function as a supplementary religion. Those ideas might be based on Phi, ?the world?s most astonishing number.?

Today, Phi is usually referred to as the Golden Ratio, and geometrical figures that include Phi-length segments are named, for example, the Golden Rectangle and the Golden Triangle. Early scholars referred to Phi as the Divine Proportion. They used this religious terminology because they saw manifestations of Phi in the natural world and they believed that god had used Phi in the design and creation of the universe.

The children of Euthenia could be taught about the history of Phi. They could be taught how to use a drafting compass to construct figures that contain Phi-length line segments. They could be shown pineapples, pine cones, sunflowers, and photographs of spiral galaxies and other natural wonders that, in a magic and awe inspiring way, seem to have Phi written into their being. Children could, if it suited them, incorporate Phi into their own religious beliefs. They could refer to Phi as the Divine Proportion or just use the secular term Golden Ratio.

I believe that these teachings are compatible with existing religions. I also believe that these teachings could be regarded as a supplementary religion and could function as a bridge between different religions. Finally, I believe that these teachings could provide the people of Euthenia with a foundation for consensus and cooperation and, therefore, the power to achieve their ultimate goal.

Euler · 2003-11-08 01:19:17

So basically you are creating a theocratic government that worships ((5)^.5)+1)/2?

Hazer · 2003-11-08 03:56:32

"(1) their children will attend schools owned and operated by the City government, (2) those schools will be supported by City tax revenues, and (3) children will all learn a set of ideas that could function as a supplementary religion."

That would be a very bad idea. Sounds more like a recipe for utopia via mind control-a bad idea. In fact, I suggest purposefully ignoring religious differences when considering who to put on Mars-aside from requiring a binding agreement to adhere to a set of laws. The US government couldn't involve itself in such a project.

Read "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley, he has some good thoughts on utopianism.

Scott G. Beach · 2003-11-08 12:47:35

Euler:

You asked if I am proposing a ?theocratic government.? No, I am not proposing that the City of Euthenia have a theocratic government. I am not proposing that meetings of the City Council be opened by a religious leader who prays for the guidance and blessing of a supernatural being. I am not proposing that the City Treasurer issue coins which bear the words ?In God We Trust.? I am not proposing that Euthenia?s public officials place one hand on a religious text while reciting the oath of office. I am not proposing that atheists be legally excluded from holding public office. I am not proposing that children be taught to pledge allegiance to the flag of a government formed ?under God.? I am not proposing that anyone be required to profess belief in the existence of a supernatural being, not even Euthenia, the Greek goddess of prosperity and plenty.

I am proposing that Euthenians adopt an aesthetic tradition that promotes social consensus and cooperation.

Scott G. Beach · 2003-11-08 15:34:33

Hazer:

You have quoted a portion of a sentence that I wrote and I believe that you have missed a crucial element of that sentence. The first part of that sentence reads: ?The people of Euthenia might be able to create a foundation for consensus and cooperation by agreeing...? The agreement about what children should be taught is an extremely important matter. A society that cannot maintain a consensus about what children should be taught is a society that is destined to dissolve one way or another; e.g., by anarchy or civil war.

The Philadelphia Riots of 1844 are a stark reminder of what happens when adults cannot agree about the religious content of textbooks that are used in public schools. During those riots, dozens of people were beaten to death in the streets of ?The City of Brotherly Love.? That unfortunate bit of history is why I have focused on the issue of what children should be taught. Whether on Earth or on Mars, consensus on this issue must be achieved and maintained.

A.J.Armitage · 2003-11-25 18:35:40

You, Scott G. Beach, are a fruitcake.

A.J.Armitage · 2003-11-25 18:51:58

Lemme get this straight. You don't want a theocratic government. You just think that unless everyone submits to having their children taught a "supplementary religion" based on a number, society will break down. Not that America or any other country has a "supplementary religion" based on the numbers Scott G. Beach happens to like, and America does not now have riots over the "aesthetic traditions" or "religious content" taught to children, nor, to my knowledge, does any Western country. Maybe because if you're all that opposed to the majority, you would have already switched to private or parochial schools or homeschooling before things got to the point of violence.

Oh, but that's pretty much the opposite of what you just said, isn't it? Instead of a consensus that must (must, mind you) be achieved and maintained, we live and let live. And we avoid giving fruitcakes like Scott the power to live out the fantasies of inventing and running weird societies.

Scott G. Beach · 2003-11-25 23:11:45

A.J.

Turkey is a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and it is generally regarded as a ?Western country.? Within the last couple of weeks, bombs were detonated in Turkey by Islamic terrorists. Those bombs were detonated outside of Jewish synagogues. The Jews who were praying in those synagogues were not involved in the battles between Israelis and Palestinians, but they were targeted for death nevertheless. The bombers did succeed in killing and wounding many Moslems who just happened to be passing by the synagogues when the bombs detonated.

Unfortunately, this kind of inter-religious violence is common in the world today. Since I have proposed an international effort to design and build a prototype Martian settlement, I have given some thought to the need to minimize the possibility of inter-religious violence in a settlement that would include people from many religious traditions.

You can disagree with what I have proposed but you should try to do so in a respectful manner. When you make derisive attacks on me you only succeed in demonstrating your lack of maturity.

Hazer · 2003-11-25 23:49:48

Unfortunately Scott, calling someone immature is just as bad as calling them a fruitcake.
I find this idea of Euthenia silly. Societal engineering tends to work out badly.
I propose avoiding agreeing on what to teach children in the first place-other then a strong math/science curriculum.
Perhaps Martian education might be the way you envision it-but it might not. If the early Martians are idealists who would be dead set against your idea-then I see Euthenia as being merely a castle in the air.

A.J.Armitage · 2003-11-26 01:44:35

Fruitcake;

Turkey is a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and it is generally regarded as a ?Western country.? Within the last couple of weeks, bombs were detonated in Turkey by Islamic terrorists. Those bombs were detonated outside of Jewish synagogues. The Jews who were praying in those synagogues were not involved in the battles between Israelis and Palestinians, but they were targeted for death nevertheless. The bombers did succeed in killing and wounding many Moslems who just happened to be passing by the synagogues when the bombs detonated.
Unfortunately, this kind of inter-religious violence is common in the world today.

They were also detonated outside British interests to coincide with Bush's visit to the UK.

You were talking about popular riots, the attacks were by a few violent nutcases who probably aren't even Turkish. As you may or may not be aware, the Turks have an Islamic party which is currently in power and which hasn't withdrawn from NATO and hasn't tried to impose Sharia. In other words, the Islamist end of the Turkish spectrum is secularist compared to much of what goes on elsewhere in the Middle East. But no, it's not really Western either.

Since I have proposed an international effort to design and build a prototype Martian settlement, I have given some thought to the need to minimize the possibility of inter-religious violence in a settlement that would include people from many religious traditions.
You can disagree with what I have proposed but you should try to do in a respectful manner.

If I tried disagreeing with you in a respectful manner, I would fail because your notions are inherently loony.

To treat your ideas with more consideration than they deserve (I ought to just call you a fruitcake some more), have you thought of any plausible mechanism by which getting everybody to agree to really, really like the same number will make them non-violent? In spite of evidence showing that it does precisely diddly? Consider: Protestants and Catholics both like the number 12. They used to kill each other. They don't anymore.

How about, oh I don't know, an agreement not to kill each other?

A.J.Armitage · 2003-11-26 01:46:42

Hazer;

Just wait. There's a copulation ritual involved somewhere.

clark · 2003-11-26 10:32:42

A.J., going for the gold. :laugh:

Scott G. Beach · 2003-11-26 13:49:04

A.J.

You wrote, ?If I tried disagreeing with you in a respectful manner, I would fail because your notions are inherently loony.?

You could address me in a respectful manner but you have made the decision to be malicious. You have derisively referred to me as a ?fruitcake.? I request an apology. If you do not have the courage to post an apology then people will see that you are just a coward.

clark · 2003-11-26 13:57:26

A.J. can see the past pretty well. But he is blind to any future.

Scott, I live in a metroplitan area where there is a great deal of interaction between people of different socio-economic and religious-cultural differences. There are of course the 'ghetto's', but many are really the result of history. I think on the east coast, people kind of live in a more regimented class hierarchy structure- which seems, at least from my impression, be the assumption you are operating on as for the future of Euthenasia.

Might I suggest that you try not to dictate that people automaticaly live in regimented areas based on cultural identity? That actually leads to less compromise between the various sub-groups, and greater misunderstandings. it also sounds like people are being excluded based on their point of view...

And for those who miss what Scott is doing, he is creating a cultural past for some future that has not happened, or might not- but the future is built from the past.

Lesser minds might not be able to get their heads around such an idea. More the pity, and humor!

Scott G. Beach · 2003-11-26 14:53:08

Hazer:

You wrote, ?I find this idea of Euthenia silly. Societal engineering tends to work out badly.?

I have written and lobbied bills through the California Legislature. As a result of legislation that I wrote, tens of millions of dollars have been collected and spent. Those dollars have been used for ?societal engineering.? And that should not be a surprise to anyone because, every business day, the U.S. Congress, state legislatures, and parliaments around this world engage in ?societal engineering.? Those governmental bodies enact laws that encourage some behaviors and that discourage other behaviors. Those governmental bodies adopt ?Education Code? provisions that control what shall and shall not be taught in public schools and private schools.

The U.S. Congress put the words ?under God? into the pledge of allegiance. By law, students in public schools recite that pledge in synchrony and in a ritualized manner. That is societal engineering. The U.S. Congress has ordered the minting of coins that bear the words ?In God We Trust.? That is societal engineering. State societies engage in this sort of societal engineering for a very good reason; because civil wars are very expensive and very bloody.

Please open your eyes to the societal engineering that YOU are a product of. Please go to a community college and enroll in a cultural anthropology class. You will learn to see your own world view and that will empower you to take control of your world view and to rewrite it in ways that further empower you.

And please change the name that you post under. When you use the name ?Hazer? it is difficult for me to take you seriously. It appears to me that you enter these forums in order to haze people. Is that your intent? Is it your intent to ?harass by banter, ridicule, or criticism?? Is that what you intend to convey by using the name Hazer?

A.J.Armitage · 2003-11-26 14:57:56

Fruitcake;

You're not owed an apology.

clark;

A.J. can see the past pretty well. But he is blind to any future.

Are you claiming you can see the future? Or are you claiming I can't imagine possible futures? But I've done it here.

Probably all it means is that I don't agree with your notions of what the future ought to be like. But that's because I can see it would suck.

And for those who miss what Scott is doing, he is creating a cultural past for some future that has not happened, or might not- but the future is built from the past.

Oh, I know what he's doing. It just doesn't need done. And if it did, Scott Beach would not be the man to do it.

If he were writing fiction, all it would be is cheesy mediocre-at-best fiction. He means it seriously, which makes the whole thing hilarious.

clark · 2003-11-26 15:07:19

Are you claiming you can see the future? Or are you claiming I can't imagine possible futures? But I've done it here.

Oh A.J. I am so so sorry. I didn't realize that was you actualy trying to "imagine". I'll know better next time. :laugh:

Now, back to the infinite possibilities of whatever it is you think is possible A.J. Which was what again? Either I'm pretty forgetful, or they weren't very memorable.

But then, some are more suited to building sand castles, and others to just kicking sand.

A.J.Armitage · 2003-11-26 15:23:27

Fruitcake;

I have written and lobbied bills through the California Legislature. As a result of legislation that I wrote, tens of millions of dollars have been collected and spent.

Somehow, I find this believable.

State societies engage in this sort of societal engineering for a very good reason; because civil wars are very expensive and very bloody.

Civil wars happen either when the upper classes fall to fighting among themselves without any ideological reason, as in the War of the Roses, or when one or both sides decide they won't just let the other be. Sometimes there's very good reasons for this, as in the American Civil War, but that doesn't make the cause any less what it is.

You will learn to see your own world view and that will empower you to take control of your world view and to rewrite it in ways that further empower you.

There's a reason the Noble Lie can only be taught when everyone over ten has left the city.

A.J.Armitage · 2003-11-26 15:25:38

clark;

Now, back to the infinite possibilities of whatever it is you think is possible A.J. Which was what again? Either I'm pretty forgetful, or they weren't very memorable.

Does this mean something?

clark · 2003-11-26 20:01:32

Do you?

Scott G. Beach · 2003-11-27 01:39:54

Clark:

You wrote, ?I think on the east coast, people kind of live in a more regimented class hierarchy structure- which seems, at least from my impression, be the assumption you are operating on as for the future of Euthenia. Might I suggest that you try not to dictate that people automatically live in regimented areas based on cultural identity??

My description of Euthenia includes 92 nationally sponsored neighborhoods and 8 experimental neighborhoods. The experimental neighborhoods would be composed of people chosen by and from among the members of the nationally sponsored neighborhoods. I structured the settlement in this way because, with people from dozens of different nations, they might not all be able to speak a common language. I did not want to propose that people must be able to speak a particular language (e.g., English) as a condition of living in Euthenia. The people in the experimental neighborhoods might get together with some professional linguists and create a new, uniquely Martian language. That could be fun! They might call it Marsperanto.

Hazer · 2003-11-27 23:34:47

Scott, my name Hazer is no more inherently offensive then the name Scott. I just happen to like the sound of the syllables. Honestly, look outside. Sometimes a word may have meaning, sometimes it might not. Should I assume you are a happy manufacturer of toilet paper who lives on a beach? Scott is a brand of toilet paper, G. could stand for "Gay", and we all know what a beach is. Of course not. Scott G. Beach is a name, and not necessarily a descriptive term. So think of Hazer as a name.

Please open your eyes to the societal engineering that YOU are a product of. Please go to a community college and enroll in a cultural anthropology class. You will learn to see your own world view and that will empower you to take control of your world view and to rewrite it in ways that further empower you.

Tsk, tsk. I see my own world view, and it empowers me to reject yours. You see Scott, I rewrite my worldview whenever I decide that there is good reason to.
If we are all products of societal engineering-then that would include those cultural anthropology courses, which are merely the products of products. And why should I listen to one product over another?
Come to think of it, science itself then becomes a product of societal engineering-no longer objective.
I suppose I am not against societal engineering in and of itself, but against the notion that societal engineering should be practiced as an objective science.

Is social stability really all that it is cracked up to be? Let us remain fluid and changing as the sea, which can wear down any mountain.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-11-28 07:28:11

My two cents worth:-

I don't like the sound of Euthenia. It sounds creepy to me and my instinct tells me it's a place I wouldn't want to live. I think I'd start to feel my flesh crawling if I even had to visit such a place.
Sorry, Scott, but even though I'm as keen as the next person to take a close-up look at Mars, if Euthenia was the only accommodation available there I'd just as soon stay home.

The martian flag ideas are interesting though.

Scott G. Beach · 2003-11-28 11:42:26

Shaun:

You wrote, ?even though I'm as keen as the next person to take a close-up look at Mars, if Euthenia was the only accommodation available there I'd just as soon stay home.?

Euthenia would not be located on Mars. Euthenia is designed to be a prototype Martian settlement and it would be located somewhere on Earth. It might be located somewhere in the huge geothermal energy field that covers Nevada and parts of California and Utah.

The people who live in the experimental neighborhoods of Euthenia would be working together to create a sociocultural system that is adapted to Mars. The ?daughter? settlement that those people might build on Mars would probably not have 92 nationally sponsored neighborhoods and eight experimental neighborhoods. The culture of the daughter settlement would probably be homogeneous rather than having the extreme diversity of Euthenia. So relax; the daughter settlement on Mars would contain only one alien culture for you to deal with, not dozens and dozens.

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Re: Politics, Religion & Social Stability - A Supplementary Religion for Mars

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