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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,513

Re: Starship is Go...

I have to believe that some will enjoy this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFqjoCbZ4ik
Quote:

First Look Inside SpaceX's Starfactory w/ Elon Musk

Everyday Astronaut
1.59M subscribers

I think it suite me at least, to learn a bit.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-22 11:42:49)

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I am starting to ask seriously "Why do I do this?"

GW Johnson

Member

From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,678

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

Thanks,  Void,  that was a very good video.  Unless I am mistaken,  it was made right before flight test 4 of Starship/Superheavy. 

GW

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GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

RGClark

Member

From: Philadelphia, PA

Registered: 2006-07-05

Posts: 749

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

In that video about 27 minutes in he talks about the autogenous pressurization system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFqjoCbZ4ik

This is a system that instead of using helium to pressurize the propellant tanks, heats a portion of the propellant to provide the pressurization. But surprisingly rather than using heat exchangers to heat the propellant, the exhaust directly from the pre-burners is used to warm the propellants. Tim Dodd was surprised it was done this way because other times it was done, heat exchangers were used.

This appears to be the cause of the recurring problems of clogging of the propellant intakes to the engines they’ve been seeing due to ice developing, since the combustion products include water or CO2 which freeze when contacting the cryogenic propellants.

I say again SpaceX is desperately in need of a true Chief Engineer, not someone who dabbles in the field. Can you imagine for example an AI company having as its Chief Technology officer someone who just dabbles in the field of artificial intelligence? Remember, this is not the CEO position here, who might be just a competent manager, this is the person who needs to have a firm understanding and knowledge of all the interconnected technology going on at the company.

A true Chief Engineer with decades of experience in the SpaceX industry who have known beforehand that using  directly the exhaust products fed into the propellant tanks is a bad idea.

  Bob Clark

Last edited by RGClark (2024-06-25 06:38:24)

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Old Space rule of acquisition (with a nod to Star Trek - the Next Generation):

      “Anything worth doing is worth doing for a billion dollars.”

GW Johnson

Member

From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,678

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

Bob:

I pretty much agree. 

I think it may be more due to young,  inexperienced engineers not knowing about the mistakes made by others elsewhere in the industry.  Some ideas-to-try can be dismissed early-on,  before cutting steel,  if you have somebody on the team old enough and experienced enough to know about the mistakes of others. SpaceX hires no one older than 45.

You can still use tapped combustion gases,  but by means of a heat exchanger,  not direct injection.  Although making it big enough to actually work may be too heavy.  Which may well be why helium is still so popular.

GW

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GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,513

Re: Starship is Go...

Here is part #2 from The Everyday Astronaut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InJOlT6WdHc
Quote:

See Starship and the Orbital Launch Pad w/ Elon Musk

Everyday Astronaut
1.6M

(Post 1876 has part #1).

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-25 09:32:56)

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I am starting to ask seriously "Why do I do this?"

GW Johnson

Member

From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,678

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

Nice video Void,  again.  Thanks.

It was good to find out only the one flap had the entry heating damage.  I'm just guessing it was the luck of the draw that the camera was looking at that one. 

GW

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GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

GW Johnson

Member

From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,678

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

Looks like Beryl is going to come ashore somewhere close to Brownsville/Matamoros.  That means SpaceX is going to see the winds,  storm surge,  and rain.  If I were them,  I'd pull my flight hardware inside until this passes.

GW

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GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

RGClark

Member

From: Philadelphia, PA

Registered: 2006-07-05

Posts: 749

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

Controversy coming from someone on Twitter posting an image claiming to show the IFT-4 booster exploding after water landing:

BOCA'S?BRAIN @BocasBrain
Here comes a 12 hour ban from X
Sorry, you don't get the footage.
See you tomorrow after the scolding :

https://x.com/BocasBrain/status/1809390911782367455

  Bob Clark

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Old Space rule of acquisition (with a nod to Star Trek - the Next Generation):

      “Anything worth doing is worth doing for a billion dollars.”

GW Johnson

Member

From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,678

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

Two points:

1. Dare trust nothing off an internet unpoliced for truth.  Twitter (among very many) has long been notorious,  and now as X,  it is even worse. 

2. Booster probably fell over sideways onto the sea after touching down,  with a bit of propellant still aboard.  Not being designed for that,  it probably broke apart upon smacking the water sideways.  An explosion would be expected.

Meanwhile:  the hurricane came ashore closer to Houston than Brownsville.  SpaceX seems to have dodged that bullet. I did see one comment somewhere on somebody's news feed:  Musk wants to fly in 4 weeks.  But as I said in point 1,  I'll believe it when I really see it.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2024-07-08 14:17:41)

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GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

JoshNH4H

Member

From: Pullman, WA

Registered: 2007-07-15

Posts: 2,564

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

For what it's worth (nothing), extrapolating the time trend from the first four flights gives you July 26th for the fifth.  Looks like that has decidedly slipped.

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-Josh

GW Johnson

Member

From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,678

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

I see in the news reports the next booster is being sent to the launch pad.

GW

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GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

JoshNH4H

Member

From: Pullman, WA

Registered: 2007-07-15

Posts: 2,564

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

Something I've been wondering about lately: Besides SpaceX itself, what companies or organizations are best-positioned to take advantage of the capabilities starship will provide?

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-Josh

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,513

Re: Starship is Go...

I waited, no one else responded.

I think it comes down to Capacity and Competition.  I am presuming now that Starship may have an initial payload lift of 50 tones as it moves beyond the main development phase.  I am thinking that eventually they may get it up to 200 tones.  This my well involve expanding the size of the launch system.

This could be a bit like refrigerators.  Before them existing, it might be that someone might say, we have ice boxes, if you build a factory, is there going to be a market for refrigerators?  Of course, we know that a market will appear in many cases if a new product appears.  I think that space stations and the products they can create will be a large part of that market.  Space manufacturing, and also some tourism, and also some research on now products in microgravity.

We cannot tell who all the competition will be.  It may be that the "West" and associates will adopt one set of methods and it may be that the non-west to some extent will have a similar attempt(s).  The USA having been tilted away from its natural neutral character towards Euroafrica and away from Eurasia, by tight association with Club Med, then causes a mirror reality to come into existence, a non-unity.  This may change if Nato and/or the EU break up.

More internally a competitor to SpaceX seems to be shaping up.  Rumors have Blue Origin buying ULA.  So, they might have more than one scheme for a 1st Stage.  Both Stoke Space and Blue Origin seem to be tilted towards a Hydra Lox and active cooled 2nd stage.  Probably Dream Chaser, ends up more in this camp, but the Europeans and Japan may get a 1st stage for Dream Chaser.  I believe that the Blue Origin 2nd stage is called "Jarvis" as in the iron Man movies.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index … =54391.440
Quote:

Quote from: Robotbeat on 01/23/2024 02:37 am
I estimate that long term, New Glenn could probably evolve to about a 75-80 ton fully reusable launcher with thrust growth from BE-4, improved Isp on both stages, and a down-range droneship landing. At least, if they took an aggressive iteration approach like SpaceX took with Falcon 9.

So, Starship may have a fairing size advantage.

The recent Falcon 9 failure may just be a reuse issue, but it also could be a sabotage thing.  There are some powers that want things like space and war to be a repeated Christmas for them.  So, my paranoid side has that as a potential reality of low probability.  But if it were true, we might fear some action against Starship next.  This process of piping tax money to the rich started in the North during the Civil War.  So, we cannot assume that the recipient classes for that would not think it is their privilege to expect things to work that way.

But I think it is more likely that it was a natural occurrence per the Falcon 9.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-15 09:29:18)

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I am starting to ask seriously "Why do I do this?"

GW Johnson

Member

From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,678

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

edit update 7-24-2024:  this posting is about the Falcon-9 second-stage failure trying to orbit several Starlink satellites:

I saw one small,  obscure item that talked about an oxygen leak.  A cryo liquid spewing into the engine bay in significant quantities from a plumbing leak would cause freezing of the high coastal humidity into lots of ice,  accumulated into the engine compartment.  Falling chunks of ice can do serious damage,  as it did to Shuttle Columbia's wing. Such falling chunks of ice were seen in the video coverage.

The engine explosion (or whatever it was) could have been either damage from being struck by falling chunks of ice,  or something to do with leaking oxygen in the presence of almost-inevitable leaking methane,  or both. Hopefully,  there enough of a data record to figure this out fairly quickly,  for the FAA investigation.

GW

Edit update 7-27-2024:  they seem to be cleared to fly Falcons again.  Although,  I have seen nothing about what the failure turned out to be.

Edit update 7-28-2024:  saw one report saying it was some sort of sensing line that cracked in fatigue because its supporting bracket was busted somehow.  That broken line let a bunch of liquid oxygen out.  The report said NOT ONE WORD about the big falling ice chunks,  but instead had some not-very-understandable words about the cold slowing part of the propellant flow,  making the engine inoperable.  Accordingly,  I think (1) we are not being told the truth about the actual problem the oxygen leak caused,  and (2) whatever that truth really is,  they apparently fixed it,  and successfully flew 3 Falcons in one day.  The news article said they simply removed the sensor line from the engine design as no longer needed (which then begs the question of why it was still there).

Last edited by GW Johnson (2024-07-28 11:12:41)

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GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"