What kind of social system will be on Mars

Martian Republic · 2005-05-05 20:34:35

Martian Republican:
You claim the US stole something from Africa? Look again silly rabbit. The US gives more total foreign aid (Government monetary aid, Red Cross, US Church organizations, World Health Organization, personal gifts, US Center for Disease Control, I can go on and on...) than any country in the world with much of it going to Africa.
When people in Africa are starving we are there. We gave enough grain to fill a warehouse and their stupid leaders let it rot and refused to distribute it because it was genetically modified to provide more nutrition per serving. They said "We don't have the scientists to tell us if this is okay to eat." That's Darwinism at work.
We stole something in Iraq? Really, what? You have some real proof other than your usual links to conspiracy websites that say "America is bad."
If our capitalist economy is so bad then why did we pass all the other countries, many thousands of years older than ours, economies in a flash and grow to be the largest.
Your claim that we grow food on land and don't replace the nutrients and minerals is ridiculous. You obviously haven't heard of fertilizer. If what you say was so every crop would fail, but they don't because the farmers are smarter than you are.

Here what the United States give in per capital in foreign aid as compared to the rest of the richest countries in the world. We are about the 19th out of 21 countries when you include the private donations.

http://www.rasmusen.org/x/archives/0003 … 00368.html

But, foreign aid is only one place that we Americans fall at when it comes to making things better. But, the loans that we make to other countries and then extract excessive usury where they can never pay off the loan and the actually money owed is actually a hole lot more than when they first started paying there loan off. It is a way of bankrupting those nations and holding them in economic bondage. The American people are going to get a taste of this kind of medicine too with George Bush signing the so called bankruptcy re-organization. You will not be able to declare bankruptcy anymore with this new bill that George Bush signed. You won’t be able to start over again even if it was not your fault, like having a sickness that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. You will be saddled with that debt for the rest or your life and you will never be free again. Like the old debtor prison in Old England.

The world banking system the way setup, is a very good way to steal from other countries. Take a look at these links.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/09210 … 00-106.htm

http://www.midwestaugustinians.org/just … owers.html

http://www.trilateral.org/projwork/tfrs … /tfr33.htm

This refusal to forgive debt is also coming home to us in America too. Take a look at these links.

http://www.bankruptcyaction.com/bankref … reform.htm

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg … 20n4e.html

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/pf/200 … 10316a.asp

Then we can also can and are also are invading other countries like Iraq with the US Military in an attempt to extract oil at gun point.

I will say it again, the United States is stealing from other nation on monetary policies, trade, by use of the Federal Reserve System and with the US Military too at gun point. Now the United States didn’t use to do this, but this is George Bush’s America and not FDR’s America anymore.

Larry,

clark · 2005-05-05 20:46:33

But how do you really feel?

Scream at a wall, it's the same as complaining about a second-term president in the US. People nod their heads, one way or the other, and then politely point out that it's a moot point in a few years.

We get angry now, and the rage burns out by next election, and we end up voting in the wrong guy/gal in the next time.

We're americans. Please forgive us.

Dook · 2005-05-05 21:29:21

I said the US gives the most and I was correct. Your chart shows 'per capita'. To put this in perspective you are trying to say that a person starving in Africa would much rather get 2 cents worth of food from Norway than 20 cents worth of food from the US? Yeah, right.

A few responses about the math used to rank the US from the first link you posted:

Let's think of this in terms of how the US benefits the world: not only include foreign aid payments, but the Peace Corps, the billions pumped into foreign economies by basing American troops overseas, the ability of other countries to spend on social welfare programs while the US takes care of their defense needs, the fact that the US is the major importer of goods, that the US is open enough to allow people from around the world even countries like China that are potential enemies to send people over to learn in our schools, the benefit to the world from the technological advances made in the US, the spread and protection of democracy as a result of American power from Europe to East Asia and so on.

I have looked at the index and I think I now see the problem. It's a "composite" score, based on various categories. These include, for example, an "environment" score. So actually GIVING money to people could be considered less important than, say, signing the Kyoto accords, whether or not the Kyoto accords would actually help anybody, and from everything I've read, they wouldn't. I think I can file this report under "ignore" from now on.

Also Norway didn't eliminate smallpox worldwide. Hmm, I wonder why we bad American's did that?

The US bankrupting other nations and holding them in economic bondage? Yeah, that's why we are working to get nations to forgive Iraq it's proposed $300 billion debt owed to them and us.

You could least make an effort to be honest.

Alexander Sheppard · 2005-05-06 11:46:32

Well, given that this thread has nothing to do with Mars, I suppose I'll chime in a bit.

"the ability of other countries to spend on social welfare programs while the US takes care of their defense needs"

What countries would be included here? I assume you mean Europe. I frankly don't know enough about the Soviet-European situation to say how much US power was necessary to keep out Soviet incursions into, say, West Germany. But this has little to do with third world debt, because Western Europe was the world conquerer for many centuries and has never been third world. And in all the other regions of the world, on balance, in the past half century the threat of US attack has been a more pressing threat than Soviet attack (let alone talking about taking care of people's defense needs).

The US does consistently rank quite low in terms of per capita foreign aid. Your statements that per capita is irrelevant are rather absurd. We are discussing the US' moral status.

However, I would note that foreign aid is actually quite a bit less important than the status of the world financial system. It would make much more difference to set up a fair and reasonable world financial system, with adequate protections for poor countries, than it would to triple the amount of foreign aid that the US gives. With the rise of neoliberalism in the past couple of decades, the average growth rate of the non-China third world has slowed considerably (as has the growth rate of the US, though to a somewhat lesser extent) compared to the few decades following WWII. Though neoliberalism and slow growth may not be correlated 100%, to me it seems impossible that the correlation is very low. Combined with other factors it seems inevitable to conclude that the US and world financial system is sick, and growing even more unbalanced.

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-06 12:01:16

Your statements that per capita is irrelevant are rather absurd. We are discussing the US' moral status.

This assumes that somehow individuals are liable for a certain amount of aid regardless of citizenship. Utter bunk. Firstly, as Dook points out, 20 cents of American aid helps more than 2 cents from elsewhere, regardless of how many heads are behind it. Second, not giving as much per capita in no way diminishes the "moral status" of the nation in question. It is not the place of a national government to provide for the welfare of citizens of other nations. Giving any aid is an act of benevolence, not a default duty. Particularly in cases where the recipient of aid is in need largely through their own actions as a nation.

Since we're hopelessly off-topic already.

MarsDog · 2005-05-06 12:42:45

Just like on Earth, government will try to monitor, tax and control everything.
The human spirit will not die and people will try to circumvert domestication (as chickens, pigs and cows) via illegal activities, corruption and black market.

No matter what the system, people will find imaginative ways, such as the corruption in China, to get around stifling government. Others will move on to some seldom tracked asteroid to escape, or set off to a nearby star.

Such is the motivation to colonize space.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-06 15:01:09

Just like on Earth, government will try to monitor, tax and control everything.
The human spirit will not die and people will try to circumvert domestication (as chickens, pigs and cows) via illegal activities, corruption and black market.
No matter what the system, people will find imaginative ways, such as the corruption in China, to get around stifling government. Others will move on to some seldom tracked asteroid to escape, or set off to a nearby star.
Such is the motivation to colonize space.

Not necessarily, because you still need a large population to be able to sustain itself in space and the best way to do that is to have a government running the hole operation. Like in the hundreds of thousand to say maybe a million in that country in space whether it be the moon, Mars or some asteroid or large space station. If your just one person or a small number of people, your still going to have to do business with them and they will have most of the resources, the manufactured goods and services plus the market to sell goods and services too.

But, that government will have at it disposal:

1. The ability to generate it own money and credit which it can use to build up it infrastructure and use to finance business that play by there rule and deny credit to the outsiders.
2. They can setup the tax laws to favor the people of there colony.
3. If you want to sell to them, they can charge duties on your stuff and promote some one from inside there colony to compete with you and run you out of business.
4. The people inside that colony will have use of government owned and operated systems like subway, power plants, water and sewer plants, life support system, hospitals, etc. You may not have access to those resource either. After all, your too busy saving your money which you have to glean from that colony your trying not to be a part of so you don't have to pay taxes. But, you get sick or get some decease that cost hundreds of thousand of dollars or more and it may kill you or financially wipe you out. Your better off having a vested interest in one of those space colonies and have access to there benefits that you can't provide for yourself.

If I were a governor or executive office of some major space colony and it came down to doing business with you or someone in my own colony of say getting iron from asteroids, I would do business with him and I would give him government funding to do it too. I would also throw up a tariff against your stuff too. Assuming the other governors of the other major colonies have the same attitude, your screwed. I hope you don’t think I have a sorry attitude about you, but I’m going to promote the best interest of my colony first, before I will give a contract to somebody like you or buy something from somebody like you who is self-centered and thinking only of himself. That why you form co-op, unions or governments, to serve the best interest of everybody that in them. If somebody what to stay out, fine, but we reserve the right not to do business with them.

Larry,

Dook · 2005-05-06 16:00:01

Others will move on to some seldom tracked asteroid to escape, or set off to a nearby star.

Move on to an asteroid? In what kind of ship?

Set off to a nearby star? In what, the starship Enterprise?

MarsDog · 2005-05-06 20:20:15

Move on to an asteroid? In what kind of ship?

Enhanced Earth - Moon commuter shuttle.
A group, tired of commuting, could decide to homestead, on an asteroid.

Set off to a nearby star? In what, the starship Enterprise?

http://www.american-buddha.com/journeys.space.time.htm] Personally, the Orion starship is the best use of nuclear weapons I can think of, provided the ships don't depart from very near the earth.

http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/Pro … .html]Link 1 http://www.angelfire.com/stars2/projectorion/]Link 2 http://www.angelfire.com/stars2/project … .html]Link 3

Martian Republic · 2005-05-06 21:32:55

Move on to an asteroid? In what kind of ship?
Enhanced Earth - Moon commuter shuttle.
A group, tired of commuting, could decide to homestead, on an asteroid.
Set off to a nearby star? In what, the starship Enterprise?
http://www.american-buddha.com/journeys.space.time.htm] Personally, the Orion starship is the best use of nuclear weapons I can think of, provided the ships don't depart from very near the earth.
http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/Pro … .html]Link 1 http://www.angelfire.com/stars2/projectorion/]Link 2 http://www.angelfire.com/stars2/project … .html]Link 3

Well, if you could go 1/4 the speed of light, it would take you about 70 to 90 years to get to the closes star. If you could go the fastest speed that the Orion Starship can go, it will take you several thousand years to get to the next closes star. Now whether there's and Earth type planet there or asteroids that you can use once you get there. Well, that another story.

Larry,

MarsDog · 2005-05-06 21:55:48

It makes me wonder.

http://seti.sentry.net/archive/public/1 … 00195.htm] It was estimated at one point that an Orion vessel could reach Alpha Centauri in under 200 years.

An example of an interstellar comet, headed for Earth collision was given.

If detected a light year away, an Orion propulsion missile could save Earth.

=========================

Back to Martian social systems.

Organic interactions between various racial and cultural groups;
ignoring commands from psychopathic, Enron & Worldcom (& Osama) managerial types on Earth. Mars could become just another sandy desert that would be better off without imposed dictators or democracy.

mars2015 · 2005-05-17 06:53:30

It will have to be largely capitalist, probably moreso than say the US-as only capitalism will ensure the ingenuity needed to be successful at colonization and/or terraformation. Sure, governments will probably take the lions share of initial investments (first missions and settlements) but once the ball is rolling entrepreneurship will take over. Social welfare will be largely just for maintenance of domes, terraforming (which should still be contracted to private enterprise even if government funded) atmosphere, colonies, and all the "maintenance" necessary to keep Mars alive.

As far as actual type of government, it will probably break off into several nations similar to and/or governed somewhat by their parent nations. A settlement opened by Americans will be similar to the American Federal system of government. If done by the British, similar to their system, and if done by the Russians, same.

srmeaney · 2005-05-25 09:14:01

The Mars Social system: C.D.E.P.

We get angry now, and the rage burns out by next election, and we end up voting in the wrong guy/gal in the next time.

Weve had the same guy for four elections. He's still Prime Minister purely on the basis that the opposition is incompetent and his party replacement is just plain arrogant. All the old fogies keep voting him in because they want to die before the fall of civilization.

Like the picture of the "orion spaceship". The British Planetary society proposed one fifty times as big just for some un-manned probe to reach the next star over... Dadelus. Fortunately zero-point energy propulsion has come a long way (or had you not noticed the kewl neutrinos captured and confined in superconductor shell concept).

reddragon · 2005-06-14 18:31:32

Mars will probably have a number of small city states limited in size by the amount of land that you can easily make habitable. They will be linked loosely or not at all. Naturally different states will attract different sorts of people. You will have capitalist, socialist, and communists economies and Republican, True Democratic, Totalitarian, Fundamentalist, Aristocratic, and other government types. Probably Republican or Democratic Capitalist or Semi-Socialist states will predominate since they are the most conducive to advancement and success and are also what Americans and Europeans who would probably do the most colonizing, are most likely to establish. I would like to see the development of more direct Democracy on Mars, which may be possible in small city-states with advanced electronic voting.

Mars could become just another sandy desert that would be better off without imposed dictators or democracy.

You mean Mars will be the next Middle East. Hey Bush, go there to spread Democracy. I bet they have oil too.

Fortunately zero-point energy propulsion has come a long way

I didn't think anyone had yet found a way to generate power from zpe never mind use it for propulsion. And how much is there anyway? The 120 orders of magnitude difference between observed and theoretical values still hasn't been figured out, to the best of my knowledge.

or had you not noticed the kewl neutrinos captured and confined in superconductor shell concept

Never heard of it. How is it supposed to work?

idiom · 2005-06-15 02:31:46

First up, there is no such thing as 'traditional capitalism'. The type we have is only ~20 years old. Today there are no great industrialists that control 1/3 of the U.S. economy (shadowy conspiracy types aside) like there were at the begining of the 20th century. Capitialism fails all the time, but its easy to prop up and replace.

Second all governments know that tax is bad, the more they tax the less they get because it kills growth. However if they stopped taxing you, you would have no lovely police system, army, Nasa, community education etc etc. People love there fringe benefits thats why ~50% of the country happily votes left wing. When you don't have some ability to control the economy capitialism tends to breakdown every now and then.

Mars will likely have a whole new type of capitalism probably fifteen years ahead of what any government has on Earth because of the time it takes for entrenched economists to die.

It is similar to how American republic is 200 years out of date. It was a wonderful chance to experiment with academic political science at the time but its really hard to change it later. Mars might be the first to experiment with full virtual democracy or maybe some type of cyclic oligarchy. It will be the academic flavour of the month, unless its the theological flavour of the month depending on who gets there first.

Limiting factors as reddragon mentioned will be puny populations and scarcity of available land. The 20th century saw an advance in transportation and then communications. Mars will have severley limited transportaion so it will be a wonderful experiment in what speedy communications can do on its own.

Trebuchet · 2005-06-15 17:17:23

It's anybody's guess what the first social system on Mars will be... although, given that scientists have zeroed in on workable suspended animation for mammals, Mars is probably more within easy reach of colonization than ever... heck, depending on how long you can remain under, nearby stars might be within reach in 100 years or so.

CanalBuilder · 2005-06-20 09:48:52

Given the small numbers of people going up at first, Mars' early social structure will be that of a small village. Everybody knows everybody else, and what they're doing.
The authority structure will probably be similar to that on board ship in one the better navies. This will probably be the first part of the structure to change. Once we are permanently established over there, the usual regimes of promotion will become largely redundant - in disciplinary cases, someone may be demoted, and then a replacement can be promoted to take their place. Eventually the role of skipper would be contested. The contest could take the usual popularity contest, or based on skills - after all someone who's good at controlling a mission through space and the setting-up of a base may not be the best to run that base once everything is running smoothly.
That then leaves the problem of what to do with the old skipper.

CanalBuilder · 2005-06-20 10:17:10

The ideal way of determining a new leader has occured to me. it involves skill, tact, an understanding of human nature, and the boldness to follow your instincts to the end. It is, of course, SPR - Scissors Paper Rock. Best of three just to make it interesting for the spectators.

C M Edwards · 2005-06-20 15:14:42

That then leaves the problem of what to do with the old skipper.

Marooning, exile, or hanging come to mind. Or, if we're really mad at the guy, we can transfer him back and forth between Mars and Earth a few times, repeatedly whipping his command out from under him like a rug.

That ought to handle it. :;):

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-06-05 13:31:15

an old topic perhaps worth discussing

The dark side of techno-utopian dreams: Ethical and practical pitfalls
https://newuniversity.org/2024/06/05/th … -pitfalls/

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