A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

RGClark · 2024-02-10 08:29:36

ESA Publishes Call for Reusable Rocket Booster Concepts
By Andrew Parsonson - February 10, 2024
The phrasing of “liquid reusable booster” and the fact that the programme will potentially be aimed at existing launch systems suggests that this may be part of an Ariane 6 evolution. If this is not one of the direct aims of the initiative, ArianeGroup will certainly be in a position to utilize BEST! as a means to fund, at least partially, the transfer of the knowledge gained during the ongoing development of the reusable booster demonstrator Themis to an evolved Ariane 6 variant.
https://europeanspaceflight.com/esa-pub … -concepts/

This is great news for European space flight. I find it quite notable the author of this article on the new ESA push for reusability is asserting that it may involve an evolution of the Ariane 6. This is important, for if it is to be reusable then the solid SRB’s must be dispensed with. Now, it is possible such an evolution would involve the methane-fueled Prometheus engine. But in my opinion, using a completely different engine with even different propellant should not be regarded as an evolution of the Ariane 6. It would be an evolution of the Ariane 6 to reusability if using the same hydrogen-fueled Vulcain engines but not using the SRB’s.

Quite key for these new launcher developments is to follow the SpaceX model of private financing for the launchers. That way 90% of the development costs can be saved: a mid-sized orbital launcher can be developed for only a few hundred million development cost, not the billion dollars thought necessary when such launchers were government financed. See discussion here:

Towards Every European Country's Own Crewed Spaceflight, Page 2: saved costs and time using already developed, operational engines.
https://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2024/ … s-own.html

The key, and most controversial, points:

1.)Any European country can field their own, independent, manned flight capable launcher in under 2 years, IF they design it around already developed and operational engines.

2.)By eliminating the two SRB’s on the Ariane 6, and instead adding 1 or 2 additional Vulcain engines on the core stage, ArianeSpace can field such a launcher in less than a year.

3.)In any case, such a manned flight capable launcher by following the commercial space approach spear-headed by SpaceX could be developed for less than $200 million, assuming they didn’t have to pay engine development costs by using already operational engines.

Bob Clark

Last edited by RGClark (2024-02-10 08:31:19)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-02-11 04:03:47

A self inflicted wound, the world and Musk moving forward, they thought they could use Russia for smaller medium lift in the French spaceport in South America then through policy and politics badly damaged their competitiveness.

...but finally some good news

RGClark · 2024-02-13 09:37:56

ESA appears now to have a serious aim of progressing to manned spaceflight:

ESA Astronaut Samantha Cristoforetti to Lead Agency’s LEO Cargo Return Initiative
By Andrew Parsonson -
February 8, 2024
In a LinkedIn post published on 7 February, Cristoforetti explained that while her dreams to become an astronaut, participate in a spacewalk, and serve as Commander of the International Space Station had all come true, one big dream remained.
“I dream of Europe having its own spaceship, like the US, Russia, China, and soon, India,” wrote Cristoforetti. “I dream of international crews flying to space not only on private US vehicles but also on European ones.”
Cristoforetti went on to explain that she had been given the opportunity to be a part of fulfilling this dream by leading the team implementing the LEO Cargo Return Service initiative.
https://europeanspaceflight.com/esa-ast … nitiative/

Bob Clark

Calliban · 2024-02-13 18:17:00

Here is a crazy thought. Could European countries build Starship under licence? Pay SpaceX a fee as design authority and build Starship in their countries? The same arrangement allows international customers to build US, French and Korean nuclear reactors. You pay an intellectual property fee, and the design authority gives you the specifications and maybe some components. You then built it yourself. This seems like the best route to a European manned launcher to me. Why pay billions to reinvent the wheel?

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-13 19:43:40

For Calliban re #154

Bravo for what seems (to me at least) to be an excellent idea.

If you have an account with X, you can post a message there. I understand Elon occasionally drops in on the service.

He could ask one of his staff to contact ESA to see if they'd be interested. We (humans) are going to need a ** lot ** of Starships, so the more the merrier.

(th)

RGClark · 2024-02-15 00:10:09

RGClark wrote:

ESA Publishes Call for Reusable Rocket Booster Concepts
By Andrew Parsonson - February 10, 2024
The phrasing of “liquid reusable booster” and the fact that the programme will potentially be aimed at existing launch systems suggests that this may be part of an Ariane 6 evolution. If this is not one of the direct aims of the initiative, ArianeGroup will certainly be in a position to utilize BEST! as a means to fund, at least partially, the transfer of the knowledge gained during the ongoing development of the reusable booster demonstrator Themis to an evolved Ariane 6 variant.
https://europeanspaceflight.com/esa-pub … -concepts/
This is great news for European space flight. I find it quite notable the author of this article on the new ESA push for reusability is asserting that it may involve an evolution of the Ariane 6. This is important, for if it is to be reusable then the solid SRB’s must be dispensed with. Now, it is possible such an evolution would involve the methane-fueled Prometheus engine. But in my opinion, using a completely different engine with even different propellant should not be regarded as an evolution of the Ariane 6. It would be an evolution of the Ariane 6 to reusability if using the same hydrogen-fueled Vulcain engines but not using the SRB’s.
…

Rereading that article by Andrew Parsonson. I think he is referring to the methane-fueled Ariane Next program, not a supposed all hydrolox-Vulcain engine version.

But interestingly, such a methane-fueled launcher might cost 50% that of the Ariane 6, and thus be competitive with the Falcon 9 prices. This is described here:

DOI: 10.13009/EUCASS2019-949
8TH EUROPEAN CONFERENCE FOR AERONAUTICS AND SPACE SCIENCES (EUCASS)
Ariane Next, a vision for a reusable cost efficient European rocket.
Antoine Patureau de Mirand*, Jean-Marc Bahu*, Eric Louaas*
*Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales (CNES), 52 rue Jacques Hillairet – 75612 Paris Cedex, France Corresponding Author (****@cnes.fr)

https://eucass.eu/index.php/component/d … d&id=5506…

This is the point I have been making. The large solid side boosters on the Ariane 5/6 are not price competitive. By switching to all liquid reusable engines you can get launchers price competitive to the Falcon 9.

Bob Clark

Last edited by RGClark (2024-02-15 00:21:15)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-02-22 16:15:41

ESA and PLD Space join forces to enhance small satellite launch flexibility

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/ESA_ … y_999.html

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-23 05:25:04

How Europe's access to space failed to evolve

perhaps not the correct path now that Musk with new Space-X designs and other private companies starting to show Ariane as a fading Dinosaur mindset of rocketry?

however it seems the new Ariane will have customers

Flying first on Ariane 6
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Flyi … 6_999.html
With Europe's new Ariane 6 rocket now at its spaceport in French Guiana, the passengers it will launch to space are getting ready to be added to the top of the tall new rocket. Ariane 6 will launch several satellites, deployers and experiments from space agencies, companies, research institutes, universities and young professionals on its first flight.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-23 09:41:18

It’s official: Europe turns to the Falcon 9 to launch its navigation satellites
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/03/i … atellites/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-03 07:01:35

A Dinosaur Rocket once useful in a previous age

some of the many issues a European market faces

Europe’s ambitious satellite Internet project appears to be running into trouble
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/05/e … o-trouble/

Why Germany ditched nuclear before coal – and why it won’t go back
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/why-germany-d … 19542.html

'Long-Awaited Ariane 6 Rocket Faces Tough Odds in First Launch'
https://gizmodo.com/long-awaited-ariane … 1851404717

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-06-05 05:45:00

Boosting the next generation of European rockets and space transport

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Tg4rECRRZk

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#151 2024-02-10 08:29:36

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

#152 2024-02-11 04:03:47

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

#153 2024-02-13 09:37:56

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

#154 2024-02-13 18:17:00

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

#155 2024-02-13 19:43:40

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

#156 2024-02-15 00:10:09

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

#157 2024-02-22 16:15:41

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

#158 2024-03-23 05:25:04

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

#159 2024-03-23 09:41:18

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

#160 2024-05-03 07:01:35

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

#161 2024-06-05 05:45:00

Re: A fast route to a European low cost, reusable, manned launch vehicle.

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