Planning Mars. - Why?

Hazer · 2003-11-08 04:12:39

So many people speak of planning Mars before the colonists even get there...Feh. Let the colonists set it up themselves without us intervening. After all, they will know how to best deal with any problems.
Planning out their cities, and lives, might generate some natural resentment towards us arrogant Terrans.
Beyond planning the methods by which the colonists may physically survive, is it realistic to think that we may sit here and plan out their existence?
Let the government-beyond an original colonist-signed charter or three, and economy of Mars develop by themselves. The more interesting thing to discuss will be what the -outcome- of Martian government and economics will be.

Hazer · 2003-11-10 23:43:18

Of course I intend to direct the development of Mars by actually going there. Hurry up NASA.

Ian Flint · 2003-11-25 11:37:40

I wholeheartedly agree!

The only thing all the many papers on Martian politics should hope for is for the future Martians to read them.

If I were sending people to Mars I wouldn't try to force them into any political system. I would just send people that I thought had good ideas.

I am a bit pessemistic about governments, though. I'm afraid there will eventually be a war for independence on Mars. Hopefully, we will populate Mars with thinkers and peace lovers.

Wim · 2003-11-25 13:46:37

Maybe you should read 'Mars' and 'Return to Mars' by Ben Bova, that's about the politics and independence, etc.
Well, we should at least have some ideas how to set up a little 'governement' (the word sounds too big to me) before humans are going to Mars. Just to get started, and if the 'plans' don't work out, let them decide how to get organized. No ?

Hazer · 2003-12-07 14:24:37

But what will take precedence, our plan or the desires of the colonists?
I did read those books a while back-interesting bits of Sci-fi.

Mundaka · 2004-01-13 15:21:34

Bill White · 2004-01-13 15:52:51

Why is there such a desire to install a government even before we get there?
Isn't the whole idea for there to be a place, somewhere, just beyond the edge of the frontier, where nobody can tell you what to do? Just for awhile?
Does a new constitution have to apply to the entire planet? Isn't more fair to govern just your own area and leave the rest well enough alone? Imagine the Pilgrims declaring that the Mayflower Compact applied to North America. (Actually, I think the children or grandchildren of the Pilgrims quickly developed other plans, so a charter or other founding document may only just outlive its authors anyway.)
I know civilization must come eventually, and that's fine, as long as there is always a place for the adventurous, and the misfits, and the loners, and those who just want to try again without being followed by that pesky Dangan!

I have sympathy for this sentiment, however,

Why should the Terran taxpayers pay billions or trillions of dollars to send settlers to a place where we who stay on Earth "can't tell them what to do?" Thus, I suggest the adventurous, the misfits and the loners simply play along and say stuff like. . .

"Um yeah, sure President Bush, we promise to do EXACTLY as you say. Yeah, no worries about that, mate."

Cobra Commander · 2004-01-13 18:24:49

Why should the Terran taxpayers pay billions or trillions of dollars to send settlers to a place where we who stay on Earth "can't tell them what to do?" Thus, I suggest the adventurous, the misfits and the loners simply play along and say stuff like. . .
"Um yeah, sure President Bush, we promise to do EXACTLY as you say. Yeah, no worries about that, mate."

Precisely!

"What Martian flag? Don't know what you're talking about. We swear to do what the Master says, we swears."

And once you get settled in you can start ignoring some mandates.

Bill White · 2004-01-13 18:30:34

Why should the Terran taxpayers pay billions or trillions of dollars to send settlers to a place where we who stay on Earth "can't tell them what to do?" Thus, I suggest the adventurous, the misfits and the loners simply play along and say stuff like. . .
"Um yeah, sure President Bush, we promise to do EXACTLY as you say. Yeah, no worries about that, mate."
Precisely!
"What Martian flag? Don't know what you're talking about. We swear to do what the Master says, we swears."
And once you get settled in you can start ignoring some mandates.

Thats why we talk about constitutions and a "new dawn" for humanity. Its marketing.

Bill White · 2004-01-13 18:33:01

Maybe you should read 'Mars' and 'Return to Mars' by Ben Bova, that's about the politics and independence, etc.
Well, we should at least have some ideas how to set up a little 'governement' (the word sounds too big to me) before humans are going to Mars. Just to get started, and if the 'plans' don't work out, let them decide how to get organized. No ?

I am writing a Mars novel myself and to "tip my hat" to Ben Bova, I foresee the powers that be requiring my astronauts to sign a contract with a "Jamie Waterman" clause. No nonsense about declaring soveriegnty and stuff like that.

I like Bova's writing but his Terran bureaucrats are always far too stupid for plausibility. IMHO.

Mundaka · 2004-01-13 20:54:46

Hazer · 2004-01-14 00:46:05

Glad this got some thought.
Mars for the Martians-when they can survive independantly of Earth.
However, the fastest way to keep them as an extension of an earth government would to be keeping them as dependant as possible.

For all who would dictate how Mars should be governed: Get there first.

Bill White · 2004-01-14 08:39:19

For all who would dictate how Mars should be governed: Get there first.

Absolutely!

Cobra Commander · 2004-01-14 15:20:05

For all who would dictate how Mars should be governed: Get there first.
Absolutely!

Of course the flipside of that is "We got here first through our own labor so don't presume to tell us how to live."

And so Martian Fascism has its window to grow and the aura of legitimacy. Today Mars! Tomorrow... well, you know.

In essence, all the "planning" for the governing of Mars won't matter two feces to the people who live there, but if the discussion is widespread enough it will set the overall mood of what Martian government should be. This is an attempt to will our visions into existence by imposing our philosophies on future generations.

But then, our disagreements over those visions and the arguing that ensues is probably all that will make it through, but that certainly won't stop the debate.

Pendragon · 2004-01-14 15:41:03

I agree that the discussion about government on Mars might be premature at this stage and might be better left until the actual settlers on Mars can form an agreement. It seems the discussion might be better focused on how we can limit the influence and duration of Earth governments and buisnessess in the lives of the settlers on Mars. Whatever plans made here thought if shaped right could also give a good foundation for Mars to then write there own constitution.

Does a new constitution have to apply to the entire planet? Isn't more fair to govern just your own area and leave the rest well enough alone? Imagine the Pilgrims declaring that the Mayflower Compact applied to North America. (Actually, I think the children or grandchildren of the Pilgrims quickly developed other plans, so a charter or other founding document may only just outlive its authors anyway.)

With the fact that developing life on mars will have to be an interconnected affair (at least at first), it just seems natural that a government for the whole planet will arise. Also, since the voyage of the Mayflower, we have devloped other governing institutions that better adapt to the wishes of the citizenry.

Mundaka · 2004-01-14 16:01:19

Pendragon · 2004-01-14 17:36:39

You make some very interesting points Mundaka. But you are forgetting one thing as pertains to this thread. Inside a company (especially one the size required for such a undertaking) you already have a hierarchy. That will effect the form of society and government later on Mars. But it does give you the benefit of the people who are actually going there planning the trip and not the politicans who are probably alot more interested in staying here.

As for your idea (which might be in want of its own thread) it could work. You might even be able to find some investors to help with seed money. As for other industries, it will probably entail agriculture, computers, etc. Things that will be needed on Mars that would be to hard to rely on Earth for. Also, as for the employees' pay and benefits. The low pay would probably be fine (what use would it be on Mars) plus one would have to consider the community. Since during the trip and on Mars quarters would be tight, back on Earth company housing might not only be an idea, but might be preferred.

To keep from rambling to much, I will leave it at that. Just some food for tought.

Mundaka · 2004-01-15 12:56:57

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#1 2003-11-08 04:12:39

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#2 2003-11-10 23:43:18

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#3 2003-11-25 11:37:40

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#4 2003-11-25 13:46:37

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#5 2003-12-07 14:24:37

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#6 2004-01-13 15:21:34

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#7 2004-01-13 15:52:51

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#8 2004-01-13 18:24:49

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#9 2004-01-13 18:30:34

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#10 2004-01-13 18:33:01

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#11 2004-01-13 20:54:46

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#12 2004-01-14 00:46:05

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#13 2004-01-14 08:39:19

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#14 2004-01-14 15:20:05

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#15 2004-01-14 15:41:03

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#16 2004-01-14 16:01:19

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#17 2004-01-14 17:36:39

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

#18 2004-01-15 12:56:57

Re: Planning Mars. - Why?

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