Stratospheric High Altitude Platform Station

PhotonBytes · 2024-04-23 02:14:27

A high altitude platform station such as the one being developed by a Russian company Aerosmena can be used to simulate Martian gravity as well as Martian Atmosphere. Pressurize a glass domed top deck with CO2 at 600 Pascals at 100,000 feet and start a descent at -1200ft/min until you reach 60,000 ft. This will give you about 40 minutes of Martian time before you have to go up again. I would not descend below 60,000 feet because once you reach the traopopause at 36,000 ft it starts to get more and more turbulant. Staying above 60,000 ft keeps your airship in a laminar airflow. I would design the HAPs to have a conical bottom so that during descent it will experience a streamlined air flow around the bottom of the hull. Keep most of the weight in the center and bottom where the cone is.

1. Martian Gravity
2. CO2 atmosphere at 600 pascals
3. Regolith
4. Pressure suits
5. Mock Martian base.

You can have all of the above for 40minutes. If you go below 60,000 ft say to 40,000 ft you could maybe squeze out another 30minutes.

References:

https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uploads … verted.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-alti … rm_station

tahanson43206 · 2024-04-23 06:05:46

This post is reserved for an index to posts NewMars members may contribute over time.

Best wishes for success with this interesting new topic.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-02 16:13:23

We had similar topics on Balloons and 'ULDB'

news

8 thousand lbs or 3628.7 kg

NASA's Arctic Balloon Missions Set for 2024 Sweden Campaign
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/NASA … n_999.html

These scientific balloons serve as an efficient method for NASA and global universities to test, monitor, and retrieve scientific experiments. The heavy-lift balloons are capable of carrying payloads up to 8,000 pounds to near-space altitudes.

PhotonBytes · 2024-05-17 05:38:05

The Airship Station also has a place in Mar's Atmosphere. While the air density is thinner it's still enough or an airship to hover above ground there, high enough that the entire base can be mobile. Also due to it's circular nature you can build inside it a centrifuge so that in the outer sections of the craft you have 1g like here on Earth. This solves the problem of bone density loss over long term off world missions. It also creates a compelling reason to build cloud cities like we envisioned in the clouds of Venus. But it's needed much more on any world with lower than 1g gravity such as Mars and Titan. Why build cities on the ground when you can have them hover above ground and go anywhere of interest? The city can roam like a nomad for resources such as the ice caps for water supply and then to various craters and to the base of mountains.

The only settlements on fixed ground positions should be ones on top of resources such as trapped ice. But they should also have an airbase to support the coming and going of cloud cities like the above airship. Have docking mechanisms and control tower.

https://photonbytes.com/2024/05/12/1g-in-mars/

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2024-05-17 05:43:10)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-17 06:11:02

For PhotonBytes re #4

You have advanced an interesting proposal...

Please put numbers into the mix....

Your vision may well stand up to numbers, but we will never know without them...

Please use inputs of:

1) Atmosphere density at the surface of Mars
2) The lifting power of hydrogen gas with respect to the atmosphere of Mars at the surface
Please use cubic meters for volume
Please use the temperature of the atmosphere of Mars as 0 degrees Celsius (hot day at equator)
3) The mass of the envelope you will need to contain the gas
Please use kilograms for all mass computations
The material you choose for the envelope needs to be able to hold hydrogen
You may find that kbd512 has provided recommendations for material for this purpose
4) The mass of the straps you will need to transfer lifting force from the envelope to the payload
The straps need to be separate from the envelope in order for the computations to be understandable to others
I have not seen this element discussed previously, so look forward to your version
5) The mass of the payload
This presumes you are able to show a net lift after you've subtracted the mass of the envelope and the straps from the hydrogen lift
This mass will include the frame to hold the payload
Finally, the payload itself

You will find that Mars_B4_Moon has been a balloon enthusiast and supporter, so his posts about balloons will be encouraging.

***

If you need help with any of these numbers you will find helpful guidance saved in the forum archive.

While numerous members have contributed to the archive, the work of GW Johnson may be particularly useful.

I would very much like to see your vision develop into a plan for an experiment, but the numbers have to come first.

(th)

PhotonBytes · 2024-05-17 07:44:29

Will do, It's been hell of a long day, Im also applying or a senior positioin in NASA. Will do as you ask because it will help with my resume! I also made a second post recently proposing a giant igloo habitat in korolev crater, be sure to check it out!

Thank God for AI because I don't have a staff helping me crunch numbers on spreadsheet as quickly as I come up with new ideas!

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 70#p223170

But my website has full and complete context with calculations:

https://photonbytes.com/2024/05/17/mart … ter-igloo/

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2024-05-17 07:47:34)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-17 09:56:28

I would be surprised to see any Balloon lift more than 40 kg in regular Mars conditions, although some have also discussed future advancements and different conditions in lower lying craters and tonnes of lift, I don;t believe it can lift much.It's amazing how AI interacts with us and it is good that your AI illustrator put that UFO looking shape inside a Basin surrounded by high mountains or inside a crater with a high rim of mountains. There are other designs out there discussed the balloon absorbing solar and buoyant enough to float and lift more during the day because of solar heating but I think the Balloon will be useful maybe more of a scout, a telephone / radio or a minerals and cave mapper a type of surveillance drone and not very good and moving anything living.

PhotonBytes
This for example was news of an Airplane
https://www.popsci.com/science/mars-plane-design/
does it need a cockpit, do they plan on using a mouse or gerbils as pilots or was the cockpit chosen for visual presentation aesthetics, its payload lifted must be tiny.

it's a great design but some features seem to be visual advertising and it will have limits

I can certainly be accused of being a balloon enthusiast or supporter of flight on Mars, however from what I have seen in numbers I will admit there are extreme limits on Mars and possible future struggles. Perhaps there will be more issues with Dust Storms and with changes in temperature and pressure it could be difficult to lift something as big as a human. Missions with Balloons might be more suited to Venus or Titan, we had many discussions on airship or dirigible balloon is a type of aerostat or lighter-than-air aircraft and it would seem maybe something the size of a Cat or Schoolbag is possible lifted when people looked at numbers. For a time there some of us were more narrow minded on flight there was even debate if anything at all would fly on Mars ever, then Perseverance rover landed with Ingenuity, nicknamed Ginny, flight took place in what could be considered the high elevation thin atmosphere of the Syrtis Major quadrangle, the little helicopter proved flight is possible in the extremely thin atmosphere of Mars.

Although Mars has a much thinner atmosphere than Earth it also has extreme differences in elevations and pressure, the Low elevation Northern Lowlands, Valles Mariners, Argye Basin and the Hellas Impact Crater or Hellas Planitia are far more inviting for flight. If you could somehow carve out a tunnel or channel and join a Basin in the Southern Hemisphere to the Northern Lowland of the Northern Hemisphere it can be argued you could easily circumnavigate the entire of Mars but you would also need to avoid the Mons and Highlands, in a far future flight would improve as Mars gets 'Terraformed'. Balloon science has been neglected for a time, however balloon things are moving again NASA and JAXA and other agency are investing in High-altitude balloons or stratostats which fly in conditions very comparable to Mars atmosphere. Dick Rutan recently died, he proved you can fly around Earth, co-pilot of historic round-the-world flight, they flew around the globe without stopping or refueling but humans you have to keep alive, a small Artificial Intelligence robot will not need biological support. On Mars without pilots to keep alive with food, water and oxygen you could have an AI fly your aircraft or balloon a much greater distance. The Balloons can not just be used to measure the weather but as HAPS or ULDB to recieve and transmit data, act as pseudo-satellites, help rescue workers or military, act as radio transmitters, cameras, or satellite navigation systems, such as GPS receivers. On Earth Google Loon or Loon LLC worked on providing Internet access to rural and remote areas, NASA Pathfinder and NASA Pathfinder Plus were aircraft developed as part of an evolutionary series of solar- and fuel-cell-system-powered unmanned aerial vehicles that might one day fly on Mars. Even on a flat plain on Mars there could be examples of how Fresnel zones can be disrupted as a colony builds in a raw untamed regions and gets busier, there may be large boulders, buildings in-between, regions of space between and around a transmitter and a receiver, interruptions from the ground, road traffic, another high tower or dome or apex structure or other obstacle, the Balloon will be used to keep lines of communication open.

Usually the more simple of designs by space agency are the ones that become the more successful. We had all kinds of ideas explored in these forums over the years
'baloon launcher - Cheap way to get to space'
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3505
for example another idea by Branson's Virgin Galactic and Burt Rutan, SpaceShipOne it seems like it can work as an idea an experimental air-launched rocket-powered aircraft that piggy backs on another aircraft but it gets more and more difficult to make it work reliably, constantly and practically, its one of those things that seems like a good idea on paper but has too many complex variables.

I think the Balloon will probably be used as a camera scout and transmitter. Another thing which might happen which we do not foresee now is we build down in a future on Mars instead of up, for example in a far-ish future some might decide on Excavating a portion of Hellas eventually going deep enough that the surface pressure tolerable. However we still do not have the current technology to dig a site this deep, the deepest borehole drilled by the Soviet Union reached a depth of 12,262 meters 40,230 feet or 7.6 miles, products might be flown out of the Deep Cave by Drone or Balloon or Raised and Lowered by Car-Cables. If you are going to the trouble of digging artificial caves, pit caves and giant shaft caves then you could probably start pumping chemistry into these zones, thicker atmosphere and greenhouses gases however more investment would be needed as over time air would diffuse into the rest of the atmosphere across Mars and because Mars has no magnetic field the Solar winds once again strip atmosphere to space. Digging down so deep might be more the real of science fiction Mega scale engineering on Mars. A more simple solution might to not dig so deep and not think about air, at Hellas the conditions might be already just correct for liquid water, you dig down a little create a pond and seal it all off, there are already NASA analog mission that sends groups of astronauts, engineers and scientists to live in the Aquarius underwater laboratory, on Earth we already have fish farms and Underwater Farming inside some of the deepest Mars craters, also known as vertical underwater farming or regenerative ocean farming, involves growing crops under the ocean. A colony might be easier sustained inside a Basin by way of Aquaponics the food produce system mixing aquaculturem biofuel production and chemistry production with hydroponics, the nutrient-rich water is fed to hydroponically grown plants. If you are digging down the better idea might be to build an ocean mini lake before you build airports, a big pond structure or SeaWorld or sea life-themed aquarium attraction. The water would provide shielding during a 'Solar Storm' it could be used for farming, other animals might live more free inside a giant Aquarium Sanctuary and also generate Mars tourism, the mix of different colors could provide visual stimulation of new life and new color away from the Orange and Reds and help keep away Cabin Fever or 'Depression'. There are suggestions Mars might have a lot of trapped waters or water, estimates suggesting that a sphere the size of the red planet might be covered in about 100 feet 30 meters of water.
Your Balloon drone would sit on top of your aquarium colony, it would simply take off and lift into the sky to stay in touch with Earth, the Balloon would be part of the Relay Network and repeat transmitted information to keep the underwater colony in constant communication.

Rather than use the Balloon to deliver a payload of Mars seeds from one colony to another or Platinum or Diamond bits or computer chips a bottle of water or 'Gold' or white Truffles or medicine it may just act as eyes and ears and mouth in the sky. It won't be an effective use of power using Balloons to transport maybe some type of Rocket or Nuclear crawler or Cable car railway or Train may be used to transport good in an expanding colony, the best use of a Balloon might just be a robotic scout, the NASA JPL Rover Opportunity has broken all previous distance records by the Soviet Lunokhod-II, the manned Apollo buggy vehicle, the Opportunity rover drove more than 28 miles 45 kilometers and its record still stands, I would expect a good Mars Airplane or Balloon to easily beat this record in one single day.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-05-17 10:37:05)

PhotonBytes · 2024-05-17 12:48:32

Just a brief response to both members above, I've run some numbers independent of AI:

From above numbers a balloon 200m in radius that is 400m diameter can lift up 90 metric tons to the height of mount olympus. Im surpised by this and kinda suspicious. Sounds too good to be true. Feel free to scrutinize these numbers.

I used both the equation of bouyancy and equation for volume of a sphere. Feel free to google and wikipedia.

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2024-05-17 13:03:16)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-17 13:33:38

GW Johnson could fix your numbers

A lot of people and maybe AI chat bots sometimes make the mistake using a low lying crater or a high mountain as a zero and ignore the Craft's true mass and the requirement of the Craft to lift its own weight
I believe it was GW Johnson who mostly ran the numbers, 90 metric tons seems way off, the only debate I had with GW Johnson was the site from which a craft would fly. I believe GW Johnson used maybe somewhere slightly high not the highlands but the mean average standard while I argued a colony would be best suited on a low lying crater basin like Hellas where the pressure is greater.

90 metric tons is huge, the average weight of a small car is 1.8 tons

90 tons btw is 90,000 kg or 198,415 lbs the space station Skylab almost had an exact mass of this weight, it required a Saturn V US super heavy-lift launch vehicle on of the largest rockets ever made by mankind

Air
kg/cubic m
0.0027

Olympus Mons?
you state 0.0030 - 0.0020 kg/m3 = 0.000124 lb/ft3 = 190 Pascals = 0.0019 bar = 1.9 mili Bar

However this site says
https://marsed.asu.edu/mep/atmosphere
'on top of Olympus Mons, 22 km (14 mi) high, the pressure is only 0.7 millibar.'

it was found balloon on Mars is perhaps useful for light payloads can go a little high, something of low mass that wants to be above the surface but not very far. To lift a small payload the Balloon had to be very very large, some new designs were explored Solar-heated Montgolfier NASA missions

There were also reports of using balloons to go down, balloons can descend more slowly than heavier parachutes to drop off a payload,
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/the-new-a … d-balloons
There are news istems coming out on Balloons all the time and Technology might be improving but it has not improved that much, NASA and JAXA are perhaps launching missions on Earth which can be compared to Martian Balloons

a pdf paper here
http://web.archive.org/web/202102202209 … 3-1370.pdf
' Because of low pressure even small payloads require large balloons: to carry even 2 kg payload on Mars would need balloon of 10 meters diameter.'

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-05-17 13:47:39)

PhotonBytes · 2024-05-17 13:51:22

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

GW Johnson could fix your numbers
A lot of people and maybe AI chat bots sometimes make the mistake using a low lying crater or a high mountain as a zero and ignore the Craft's true mass and the requirement of the Craft to lift its own weight
I believe it was GW Johnson who mostly ran the numbers, 90 metric tons seems way off, the only debate I had with GW Johnson was the site from which a craft would fly. I believe GW Johnson used maybe somewhere slightly high not the highlands but the mean average standard while I argued a colony would be best suited on a low lying crater basin like Hellas where the pressure is greater.
90 metric tons is huge, the average weight of a small car is 1.8 tons
90 tons btw is 90,000 kg or 198,415 lbs the space station Skylab almost had an exact mass of this weight, it required a Saturn V US super heavy-lift launch vehicle on of the largest rockets ever made by mankind
Air
kg/cubic m
0.0027
Olympus Mons?
you state 0.0030 - 0.0020 kg/m3 = 0.000124 lb/ft3 = 190 Pascals = 0.0019 bar = 1.9 mili Bar
However this site says
https://marsed.asu.edu/mep/atmosphere
'on top of Olympus Mons, 22 km (14 mi) high, the pressure is only 0.7 millibar.'
it was found balloon on Mars is perhaps useful for light payloads can go a little high, something of low mass that wants to be above the surface but not very far. To lift a small payload the Balloon had to be very very large, some new designs were explored Solar-heated Montgolfier NASA missions
There were also reports of using balloons to go down, balloons can descend more slowly than heavier parachutes to drop off a payload,
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/the-new-a … d-balloons
There are news istems coming out on Balloons all the time and Technology might be improving but it has not improved that much, NASA and JAXA are perhaps launching missions on Earth which can be compared to Martian Balloons
a pdf paper here
http://web.archive.org/web/202102202209 … 3-1370.pdf
' Because of low pressure even small payloads require large balloons: to carry even 2 kg payload on Mars would need balloon of 10 meters diameter.'

According to the formula for bouyancy it is not pressure that is used as a variable but static air density.

Also yes youre right that 2kg will require 10m(not according to my spreadsheet but in the ball park), but here is the thing, when you double the radius you increase the volume 8 times. Also martian gravity is less than Earth's

So for small balloons yes no where near as potent as the same sized balloon on Earth, but when you scale up the balloon so that it's hundreds of meters in radius then they start to even out in cost vs benefits. Nearly identical. Another difference is that the climb rate is less in Mars near the surface and lastly night and day time temperatures will influence more on Mars. Colder night time air will be denser and enhance bouyancy. Day time temperatures will still yield acceptable performances for large balloons.

Day Time

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2024-05-17 14:04:35)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-17 14:08:24

it took me a while with the search engine but I found the post it was Tahanson not GW Johnson but he was quoting a previous debate

and the post was about Flying Aircraft or Helicopters or Airplanes not Balloons but some of the numbers are relevant

I will quote it for you

tahanson43206 wrote:

This post is reserved for a link to GW Johnson's latest paper on airplanes on Mars.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/abupurcm … 7g9ju&dl=0
(th)

and I quote

'Double the pressure to 12 mbar in the Hellas Basin' although that sounds like pressure compared to the rest of Mars

To put this in perspective I believe this is comparable to 30 km altitude high on Earth, or having your starting point more than 3 times higher than Everest at 8.8 km or 30,000 feet

I think he did another calculation of enormous balloons of 'rather tiny payloads' and we had discussion of risks of balloons getting torn on sharp rocks if they were to be used to transport anything.

if you start at a site on Hellas you are at one of the lowest altitude and highest pressure areas on Mars but still extremely thin compared to the pressures found on the highest points on Earth.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-05-17 14:18:40)

PhotonBytes · 2024-05-17 14:20:57

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

it took me a while with the search engine but I found the post it was Tahanson not GW Johnson but he was quoting a previous debate
and the post was about Flying Aircraft or Helicopters or Airplanes not Balloons but some of the numbers are relevant
I will quote it for you
tahanson43206 wrote:
This post is reserved for a link to GW Johnson's latest paper on airplanes on Mars.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … ue&sd=true
(th)
and I quote
'Double the pressure to 12 mbar in the Hellas Basin' although that sounds like pressure compared to the rest of Mars
To put this in perspective I believe this is comparable to 30 km altitude high on Earth, or having your starting point more than 3 times higher than Everest at 8.8 km or 30,000 feet
I think he did another calculation of enormous balloons of 'rather tiny payloads' and we had discussion of risks of balloons getting torn on sharp rocks if they were to be used to transport anything.
if you start at a site on Hellas you are at one of the lowest altitude and highest pressure areas on Mars but still extremely thin compared to the pressures found on the highest points on Earth.

Please examine the equations as the numbers do not lie. If I have made an error in an equation let me know! And I didnt say doubling the pressure does anything much, I said doubling the radius of the balloon does!

Copy of my Spread Sheet here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … ue&sd=true

Here is also an updated vision of what we can do instead of hugging the ground in Hellas Planitia in humiliation:

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2024-05-17 15:12:26)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-17 15:17:16

I'm not sure I understand, is the kg section column the payload your balloon is lifting? at Hellas you wrote the number 1,018,714 kg and at Korolev you wrote 603,186

to put it in perspective with an Earth based Balloon / Airship

the Hindenburg on Earth had a Dead weight 118,000 kg or 260,145 lbs and Fuel 58,880 kg or 129,808 lbs these were massive vehicles, three times as long and twice as tall as a Boeing 747.

The Graf Zeppelin had a total lift capacity of

87,000 kilograms (191,800 lbs) with a usable payload of 15,000 kg (33,000 lbs) on a 10,000 km (6,200 mi) flight.

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/04/ … ver-built/

I'm not against this I like the AI designed images but it looks very ambitious. I wonder how much is inspired by AI illustration and how much is plausible and real.
How far into the future do you think this could happen?? are you planning on building the Airship on Mars inside a Mars colony or folding it inside an Earth rocket and transporting it all the way from planet Earth?

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-05-17 15:23:41)

PhotonBytes · 2024-05-17 15:39:33

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

I'm not sure I understand, is the kg section column the payload your balloon is lifting? at Hellas you wrote the number 1,018,714 kg and at Korolev you wrote 603,186
to put it in perspective with an Earth based Balloon / Airship
the Hindenburg on Earth had a Dead weight 118,000 kg or 260,145 lbs and Fuel 58,880 kg or 129,808 lbs these were massive vehicles, three times as long and twice as tall as a Boeing 747.
The Graf Zeppelin had a total lift capacity of
87,000 kilograms (191,800 lbs) with a usable payload of 15,000 kg (33,000 lbs) on a 10,000 km (6,200 mi) flight.
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/04/ … ver-built/

I'm not against this I like the AI designed images but it looks very ambitious. I wonder how much is inspired by AI illustration and how much is plausible and real.
How far into the future do you think this could happen?? are you planning on building the Airship on Mars inside a Mars colony or folding it inside an Earth rocket and transporting it all the way from planet Earth?

I propose you reproduce the spreadsheet your self with the same intent I did. Use your own metrics and work out what payload you can hover at what altitude. Check the cells in my spreadsheet look what formulas I used.

It's very simple, birthday balloons youre absolutely right, but scale those balloons up to the Hindenburg and things get very very interesting.

Regarding AI, the idea of the spreadsheet was to double check everything AI said to me, I used google to build the spreadsheet not AI. And the results matched AI.

Regarding your question on my numbers yes, Hellas has higher air density vs the crater so an equal sized balloon there will have higher lifting capacity percentage wise. I cannot answer your question about the Zeppelin until you tell me what altitude it was flying. This subject is not about horizontal range, its about vertical altitutude.

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2024-05-17 15:45:28)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-17 17:20:58

For PhotonBytes re spreadsheet....

Thanks for providing a link to the spreadsheet you used.

I took a look at it, and it doesn't seem to have the labels I was expecting to see for computations for a balloon.

Is there a column for lift?

You may have given the column you intended to stand for lift some other title.

GW Johnson has computed that no balloon on Mars will be able to lift it's own envelope, if the envelope is made of material known to humans.

I've asked GW Johnson to look at your spreadsheet.

If you have computed that a balloon on Mars can lift itself inside it's envelope. let alone a payload, I don't see that information in your spreadsheet.

What lifting gas are you using?

The best possible lift would be provided by hydrogen, and your envelope must be able to hold hydrogen.

****
We have been over this ground before... here is a quote from the topic on hot air balloon option for Mars:

For Mars_B4_Moon re #10
You have outdone yourself, with this post.
While the post is long and full of links and information, I note one detail... the reference to the molecular weight of CO2 being greater than that of air, and therefore (apparently) contributing to increased lift for a balloon filled with either helium or hydrogen.
I quick asked Google, and it found a web site where molecular weights of various gases are listed...
CO2 44.01 grams per MOL
Oxygen 32
Nitrogen 28
Helium is 4 and Hydrogen is 2, so the net lift would (presumably) be 42 grams per MOL if Hydrogen is the lifting gas.
Hydrogen can be made from water, so it is far more likely to be used on Mars than Helium, which is going to be hard to come by in comparison.
SearchTerm:Balloon long post by Mars_B4_Moon with many citations.
(th)

For PhotonBytes ... your atmosphere model is CO2 so you have a slightly greater molecular weight for the atmosphere than is the case on Earth.

The quote shows how many grams of lift you can expect if you use hydrogen. The figure is 42 grams per MOL.

You must support the envelope of your balloon with that 42 grams, spread over whatever volume you use. I expect you will find that however large you make the balloon, the envelope will weigh more than the lift provided by the enclosed gas.

Your spreadsheet needs to show lift vs material used, for different volumes of balloon.

You've added altitude on mars and temperature of the atmosphere to the calculation. without having shown that you can lift anything at all.

(th)

PhotonBytes · 2024-05-17 17:26:32

tahanson43206 wrote:

For PhotonBytes re spreadsheet....
Thanks for providing a link to the spreadsheet you used.
I took a look at it, and it doesn't seem to have the labels I was expecting to see for computations for a balloon.
Is there a column for lift?
You may have given the column you intended to stand for lift some other title.
GW Johnson has computed that no balloon on Mars will be able to lift it's own envelope, if the envelope is made of material known to humans.
I've asked GW Johnson to look at your spreadsheet.
If you have computed that a balloon on Mars can lift itself inside it's envelope. let alone a payload, I don't see that information in your spreadsheet.
What lifting gas are you using?
The best possible lift would be provided by hydrogen, and your envelope must be able to hold hydrogen.
(th)

Where it says FORCE is the lift. Force can be measured in newtons, kg, and tons.

F = MA
Force = Mass X Acceleration
Force = newtons
Force / acceleration(mars gravity is 3.7m/s/s) = mass you can carry as payload in kg = upward force compensating to hover at said altitude

LIFTING GAS = ideally hydrogen because Mars has plenty of it in water and we need the oxygen part of water to breathe anyways might as well refill our balloon bags with hydrogen to compensate for any leaks that you say will happen. Electrolyze water for both gas. And hydrogen wont blow up the ship if there is a spark unless that spark happens between habitation modules that has oxygen and the balloon cell. Mars has no oxygen in the atmosphere to cause an explosion making hydrgen inert.

BTW all this is high school physics. Im surprised no one discovered this sooner.

For party balloons he is correct, for 200m radius balloons filled with the same hydrogen, it's a different ball game. No pun intended!

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2024-05-17 17:32:48)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-17 19:31:12

For PhotonBytes re lift on Mars ...

You may be too far down stream.

Please show that you understand the simplest concepts, for your readers who need to see the simplest concepts in order to follow your discussion.

Please show that you understand how to compute the lift of a 1 cubic meter balloon at the surface of Mars, using hydrogen as the lifting gas, and whatever plastic envelope you would like.

I have tried to show you that you can expect to get 42 grams per MOL. The envelope will have to weigh less than 42 grams per MOL you pump into your balloon.

You'll need to show how many MOL's you will pump into the balloon.

Please don't ask the AI to draw a picture of a balloon. Just show that you can explain lift on Mars to your audience.

(th)

PhotonBytes · 2024-05-17 19:51:04

tahanson43206 wrote:

For PhotonBytes re lift on Mars ...
You may be too far down stream.
Please show that you understand the simplest concepts, for your readers who need to see the simplest concepts in order to follow your discussion.
Please show that you understand how to compute the lift of a 1 cubic meter balloon at the surface of Mars, using hydrogen as the lifting gas, and whatever plastic envelope you would like.
I have tried to show you that you can expect to get 42 grams per MOL. The envelope will have to weigh less than 42 grams per MOL you pump into your balloon.
You'll need to show how many MOL's you will pump into the balloon.
Please don't ask the AI to draw a picture of a balloon. Just show that you can explain lift on Mars to your audience.
(th)

Hello, kindly scroll up to post 12(upstream), there is a screenshot of my calculations and link to spreadsheet with said calculations. Many thanks in advance!

The renderings are unprecise arts to make the topic more entertaining and digestable however they are not to far off from the truth of the topic. But by all means focus on my numbers!

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2024-05-17 19:56:50)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-17 20:04:10

For PhotonBytes ... thank you for the suggestion to look again at your earlier presentation.

This series with you and me is not about something you did previously.

I am inviting you to do new work that our audience can understand, step by step. You have shown us the top of Mount Everest, and I am asking you to help our audience take the first step at the bottom of the mountain.

I have asked ChatGPT4o to provide a review of the prior work I showed you, and it corrected the lift for Mars.

The 42 grams of life on Earth would be less on Mars, due to the lower gravity.

ChatGPT
Balloon Lift on Mars - hello again! I'd appreciate your assistance in trying to help my audience of reasonably savvy lay people to understand the environment for flying a balloon on Mars. Please don't reply with an avalanche of data. I have a step-by-step plan for our discussion, and would like to ask for your assistance in preparing a presentation.
ChatGPT
Absolutely, I'd be happy to help with your presentation on balloon lift on Mars. Let's take it step-by-step. What's the first point you'd like to cover?
Please confirm that we can expect a lift of 42 grams, in we imagine a MOL of hydrogen gas enclosed in an envelope that has no mass for this thought experiment. I think you will find in your training data that a mol of CO2 has a mass of 44 grams, and a mol of hydrogen has a mass of 2 grams, for a net of 42 grams of lift.
ChatGPT
Let's confirm the basics of your thought experiment:
Molar Masses:
The molar mass of carbon dioxide (CO₂) is 44 grams/mol.
The molar mass of hydrogen (H₂) is 2 grams/mol.
Displacement and Lift:
When a balloon displaces a certain volume of CO₂ on Mars, it is equivalent to the weight of the CO₂ it displaces.
For every mole of CO₂ displaced, which has a mass of 44 grams, and filled with one mole of hydrogen, which has a mass of 2 grams, the net lift is the difference in mass.
So, the lift generated by one mole of hydrogen gas on Mars, given that the envelope has no mass, would indeed be:
Net Lift=Mass of CO₂ displaced−Mass of H₂=44 grams−2 grams=42 gramsNet Lift=Mass of CO₂ displaced−Mass of H₂=44 grams−2 grams=42 grams
This is consistent with the fundamental principles of buoyancy and gas laws.
Would you like to move on to discussing how the Martian atmosphere and gravity affect this scenario next?
In my audience, I have a member who is concerned about altitude on Mars where the balloon will be flown, and temperature of the atmosphere. I am pretty sure that the lift of a MOL of hydrogen in an atmosphere of CO2 is independent of either of these. Can you confirm that?
ChatGPT
Yes, I can confirm that the lift of one mole of hydrogen in an atmosphere of carbon dioxide is largely independent of both altitude and temperature, but let's clarify why this is the case:
Ideal Gas Law:
The lift is determined by the difference in the molar masses of the gases involved (hydrogen and carbon dioxide) and not by their volumes.
The ideal gas law (PV = nRT) states that for a given amount of gas (in moles), the product of pressure and volume is directly proportional to the temperature. If the pressure and temperature change, the volume adjusts accordingly.
Density and Buoyancy:
The buoyant force that provides lift is determined by the density of the displaced gas (CO₂ in this case) and the volume of the balloon.
While temperature and pressure affect the density of gases, they do so proportionally for both the lifting gas (H₂) and the displaced gas (CO₂), keeping the lift per mole constant.
Altitude Effects:
On Mars, atmospheric pressure decreases with altitude, reducing the density of the CO₂ atmosphere. However, the hydrogen gas inside the balloon would also expand proportionally to the decrease in external pressure, keeping the net lift per mole constant.
Since lift depends on the difference in molar masses, as long as we consider the same number of moles of gases, the lift calculation remains valid regardless of altitude.
Temperature Effects:
Temperature affects the volume of gases (both hydrogen and CO₂) equally according to the ideal gas law.
Therefore, the buoyant lift per mole of hydrogen remains constant because both gases will expand or contract proportionally with temperature changes.
In summary, the lift provided by one mole of hydrogen in a CO₂ atmosphere is indeed independent of both the altitude and temperature on Mars. This is because the lift is fundamentally a function of the difference in molar masses of the gases, which does not change with altitude or temperature.
Would you like to delve into how the actual practical factors such as the design of the balloon and environmental conditions on Mars might influence balloon flight in a real-world scenario?
Here is a crucial question my member is sure to ask .... is the lift a function of gravitational force? In other words, if the MOL of hydrogen gas is on Earth, and it is inside a container filled with CO2, will the lift be 42 grams, and will the same be true on Mars, where the gravity is about 38% that of Earth?
ChatGPT
The lift of a mole of hydrogen gas in a CO₂ atmosphere is indeed influenced by the gravitational force. Here's how gravity affects the lift:
Lift on Earth:
On Earth, the lift generated by one mole of hydrogen displacing one mole of CO₂ is 42 grams-force.
This is because the weight of the displaced CO₂ is 44 grams, and the weight of the hydrogen is 2 grams, resulting in a net lift of 42 grams-force under Earth's gravity (9.81 m/s²).
Lift on Mars:
Mars has about 38% of Earth's gravity (approximately 3.71 m/s²).
The same mole of hydrogen on Mars would still displace the same mole of CO₂, but the weight of both gases would be different due to the lower gravitational force.
To calculate the lift on Mars, we can adjust the weights for the lower gravity:
Weight of one mole of CO₂ on Mars:
44 grams×3.71 m/s29.81 m/s2≈16.63 grams-force44 grams×9.81 m/s23.71 m/s2≈16.63 grams-force
Weight of one mole of H₂ on Mars:
2 grams×3.71 m/s29.81 m/s2≈0.76 grams-force2 grams×9.81 m/s23.71 m/s2≈0.76 grams-force
Net lift on Mars:
16.63 grams-force−0.76 grams-force=15.87 grams-force16.63 grams-force−0.76 grams-force=15.87 grams-force

Lets be sure you and I can agree with that figure, before we go flying to the top of Mount Everest. (or Mount Olympus if you prefer).

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-17 20:17:29

For PhotonBytes...

Here is a version of the report formatted in bbcode, as used by the forum software:

Balloon Lift on Mars
1. Initial Thought Experiment
We are considering the lift of 1 mole (MOL) of hydrogen gas enclosed in an envelope with no mass.
- Molar Masses:
- Carbon dioxide (CO₂): 44 grams/mol
- Hydrogen (H₂): 2 grams/mol
- Net Lift Calculation:
- Mass of CO₂ displaced: 44 grams
- Mass of H₂: 2 grams
- Net Lift: 44 grams - 2 grams = 42 grams
2. Impact of Altitude and Temperature
The lift of 1 mole of hydrogen in a CO₂ atmosphere is independent of altitude and temperature.
- Ideal Gas Law:
- Lift is determined by the difference in molar masses, not by volumes.
- The ideal gas law (PV = nRT) indicates that pressure, volume, and temperature changes affect both gases equally, keeping the net lift per mole constant.
- Density and Buoyancy:
- Buoyant force depends on the density of the displaced gas (CO₂) and the volume of the balloon.
- Temperature and pressure affect the density of gases proportionally, keeping the lift per mole constant.
3. Effect of Gravitational Force
Lift is influenced by gravitational force. Let's compare lift on Earth and Mars:
- Lift on Earth:
- Gravity: 9.81 m/s²
- Net Lift: 42 grams-force
- Lift on Mars:
- Gravity: 3.71 m/s² (38% of Earth's gravity)
- Adjusted Weights on Mars:
- Weight of CO₂: 44 grams × 3.71/9.81 ≈ 16.63 grams-force
- Weight of H₂: 2 grams × 3.71/9.81 ≈ 0.76 grams-force
- Net Lift on Mars:
- 16.63 grams-force - 0.76 grams-force = 15.87 grams-force
Conclusion
On Mars, the lift provided by 1 mole of hydrogen gas in a CO₂ atmosphere would be approximately 15.87 grams-force, due to the lower gravitational force compared to Earth.
[/bbcode]

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-17 20:31:20

As a follow up, I asked ChatGPT4o to show us the volume of our imaginary balloon at Mars. We chose to site the balloon at the Equator on a warm Zero degree Celsius day, at the mean elevation of Mars.

Volume of Hydrogen Gas on Mars
1. Calculation of Volume for 1 Mole of Hydrogen
We need to compute the volume of 1 mole (MOL) of hydrogen gas on Mars at mean surface pressure and a temperature of 0 degrees Celsius.
Given Conditions:
- Mean surface pressure on Mars: 610 Pa (0.610 kPa)
- Temperature: 0°C (273.15 K)
- Number of moles (\( n \)): 1
Ideal Gas Law:
\[ PV = nRT \]
- Rearrange for volume (V):
\[ V = \frac{nRT}{P} \]
- Convert temperature to Kelvin:
\[ T = 0^\circ \text{C} + 273.15 = 273.15 \, \text{K} \]
Calculation Steps:
- Plug in the values:
\[ V = \frac{1 \, \text{mol} \times 8.314 \, \text{J/(mol·K)} \times 273.15 \, \text{K}}{610 \, \text{Pa}} \]
- Compute the volume:
\[ V = \frac{1 \times 8.314 \times 273.15}{610} \]
\[ V \approx \frac{2271.45}{610} \]
\[ V \approx 3.72 \, \text{m}^3 \]
Summary:
The volume of one mole of hydrogen gas at the mean surface pressure of Mars (610 Pa) and a temperature of 0 degrees Celsius (273.15 K) is approximately 3.72 cubic meters.
Lift Calculation:
- The lift provided by this volume of hydrogen gas on Mars, excluding the envelope weight, is 15.87 grams-force.
Conclusion:
Our 3.72 cubic meter volume of hydrogen will have a lift of 15.87 grams-force on Mars, not including the envelope.
[/bbcode]

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-17 20:42:00

We conclude with this:

Balloon Envelope for Hydrogen on Mars
1. Choosing the Envelope Material
For a Martian balloon, we need a lightweight, durable material that can effectively contain hydrogen without leaks. Common materials include:
- Mylar (Polyester Film)
- Polyethylene
- Polyimide Films (e.g., Kapton)
We will use Mylar for our calculation.
Properties of Mylar:
- Density: Approximately 1.39 g/cm³
- Thickness: 12 micrometers (12 µm or 0.012 mm)
2. Surface Area and Mass of the Envelope
Assuming the balloon is spherical with a volume of 3.72 cubic meters:
- Radius (r):
V = (4/3) * pi * r^3
r = ((3 * 3.72) / (4 * pi))^(1/3) ≈ 0.947 m
- Surface Area (A):
A = 4 * pi * r^2
A ≈ 4 * pi * (0.947)^2 ≈ 11.27 m^2
- Volume of Mylar:
Thickness = 0.012 mm = 0.012 * 10^-3 m
Volume of Mylar ≈ 11.27 m^2 * 0.012 * 10^-3 m ≈ 1.35 * 10^-4 m^3
- Mass of the Mylar Envelope:
Density of Mylar = 1.39 g/cm³ = 1390 kg/m³
Mass ≈ 1.35 * 10^-4 m^3 * 1390 kg/m³ ≈ 0.188 kg ≈ 188 grams
3. Weight on Mars:
Weight on Mars = Mass * Martian Gravity
Martian Gravity = 3.71 m/s²
Weight on Mars ≈ 0.188 kg * 3.71 m/s² ≈ 0.697 N ≈ 70.97 grams-force
Summary:
The Mylar envelope to contain 3.72 cubic meters of hydrogen on Mars would have a mass of approximately 188 grams and a weight of about 70.97 grams-force on Mars.
Important Note:
The lift available (15.87 grams-force) is less than the weight of the envelope (70.97 grams-force), indicating that the balloon would not be able to lift its own envelope.

(th)

PhotonBytes · 2024-05-18 12:38:29

tahanson43206 wrote:

As a follow up, I asked ChatGPT4o to show us the volume of our imaginary balloon at Mars. We chose to site the balloon at the Equator on a warm Zero degree Celsius day, at the mean elevation of Mars.
Volume of Hydrogen Gas on Mars
1. Calculation of Volume for 1 Mole of Hydrogen
We need to compute the volume of 1 mole (MOL) of hydrogen gas on Mars at mean surface pressure and a temperature of 0 degrees Celsius.
Given Conditions:
- Mean surface pressure on Mars: 610 Pa (0.610 kPa)
- Temperature: 0°C (273.15 K)
- Number of moles (\( n \)): 1
Ideal Gas Law:
\[ PV = nRT \]
- Rearrange for volume (V):
\[ V = \frac{nRT}{P} \]
- Convert temperature to Kelvin:
\[ T = 0^\circ \text{C} + 273.15 = 273.15 \, \text{K} \]
Calculation Steps:
- Plug in the values:
\[ V = \frac{1 \, \text{mol} \times 8.314 \, \text{J/(mol·K)} \times 273.15 \, \text{K}}{610 \, \text{Pa}} \]
- Compute the volume:
\[ V = \frac{1 \times 8.314 \times 273.15}{610} \]
\[ V \approx \frac{2271.45}{610} \]
\[ V \approx 3.72 \, \text{m}^3 \]
Summary:
The volume of one mole of hydrogen gas at the mean surface pressure of Mars (610 Pa) and a temperature of 0 degrees Celsius (273.15 K) is approximately 3.72 cubic meters.
Lift Calculation:
- The lift provided by this volume of hydrogen gas on Mars, excluding the envelope weight, is 15.87 grams-force.
Conclusion:
Our 3.72 cubic meter volume of hydrogen will have a lift of 15.87 grams-force on Mars, not including the envelope.
[/bbcode]
(th)

It's good that you are using AI to help you with this but if youre going to do this with AI make sure you ask it to calculate the lift force for a large balloon not a small one. Set radius to 200m. Remember that many small balloons do not efficiently add up to one large balloon. My hypothesis proven already by simple high school physics is that a single large balloon can offer significant lift on Mars. It's already proven in post 12. I trust the math. Remember my claim is about LARGE BALOONS, not small ones. There is a difference. You try to compare 8 small balloons to 1 that is twice the radius you will see the larger one out perform because it's using less material for the same volume of the combined smaller 8. Remember 1 large ping pong ball contains less materials than 8 smaller ones half it's radius.

Tell us what you get from AI!

In the mean time you might wanna check this out:

https://www.spaceanswers.com/futuretech … -airships/

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2024-05-18 12:56:45)

PhotonBytes · 2024-05-18 13:45:15

I have taken the liberty of doing the calculations for you so there is no more room for confustion. Have a look at the following screenshots and the linked spreadsheet:

This is how much payload a certain sized balloon can lift on Mars at datum for varaous sizes in radius. Can you now see that there is an exponential increase in payload the larger the baloon radius? At a certain point at abuot 106m it starts to compound the benefits like as if 106m radius is a sweet spot or minimum size for the balloon to start to be beneficial.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … ue&sd=true

THIS IS HOW BIG IT SHOULD BE:

NOT THIS:

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2024-05-18 15:38:52)

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Balloon Lift on Mars

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