New Mars Forums

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re Ropeways post in Terraformer's topic...

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 68#p221868

If you have a bit of time, please see if you can tease DALL-E into creating an image of a ropeway on Mars. That would be a nice addition to the post, if you can figure out how to create it.  You can use imgur.com to store the image. An account is free. After you upload a post, you have the option of making it public, and public posts are visible to persons who visit the imgur.com site.  This might be a way to publicize both your talents and the NewMars part of the Mars Society.

In working with DALL-E please be patient. It has considerable artistic talent but it often adds features to your request that you hadn't expected.

It has proven to have limited ability to understand or render engineering concepts, but it can occasionally be enticed into creating images that correspond loosely to what you have in mind.

(th)

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,794

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

There are some real images of the Claughton ropeway on this site.
http://www.chrisandlindsey.co.uk/2021/1 … itain.html

I would expect a Mars based system to be similar.  There could be minor design variations, like the use of poles instead of towers.  But generally, it should look the same.  On Mars, we should be able to do without stainless steel for cables, as there is no oxygen to cause rust.  But that won't change the way it looks or works.  Provided that the loading point for the buckets is higher than the unloading point, the ropeway would need no power supply or motors, as gravity will drive it.  We could engineer it that way even over flat ground.  We would need dumper trucks or conveyor belts to transport the ore from the mine into the buckets.  Having the trucks drive up a short ramp is a minor issue that allows us to simplify the design of the ropeway.  Probably easier for me to draw than to put into the AI.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-04-17 10:04:24)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re #77

Thank you for reminding us of the interesting and nicely written article ... You've shown this article before, and it is good to see it again.

The question I'm offering now is coming from a place of genuine unbiased curiosity ... To my eye the tower made of angle iron looks familiar, since we have thousands of them scattered around the US, for every possible application that requires height above street lighting. I can easily imagine it would be easy to throw up towers like that all over Mars.

A pole is a design that serves well in even more situations, but here those are most frequently made of wood. There ** are ** metal poles for taller street lighting, such as for freeway interchanges.

I'm just curious why you seemed (seem?) to favor poles in the Mars application.

(th)

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,794

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

A pole has the advantage of simplicity.  It can be mass produced in factory conditions and transported as a single piece to wherever it is sited.  Very little EVA time is needed for assembly on site.  We just dig a deep enough borehole and plant it.

The disadvantages of hanging a cable and bucket system from poles is that the pole can only support near vertical forces compressively.  Any cantilevered forces exert bending moments on the pole and will pull it sideways.  Any lateral forces from the wind also exert bending moments which must be resisted by the base.  A wider tower can be tapered towards the base, allowing lateral forces to be absorbed compressively, with less bending, because a tapered tower can provide lateral reaction forces.

I think much depends upon the loads that need to be supported between spans and how difficult it is to bore a hole deep enough to stabilise a pole.  It is the sort of design decision that should be supported by a thorough cost analysis.  There are lots of possible options that would go into such an analysis.  Modular tapered frame structures.  Moulded rammed soil using a steel mould.  Gravity stabilised, dry stone structures.  And probably other things that I havn't thought of.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-04-17 15:39:08)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re #79

Thank you for your evaluation of my inquiry about poles vs towers.

That sure does make sense, in the context of an installation on Mars, which is going to be challenging in any case!

***
I created this post to attempt to interest you in helping to shape the demo of a possible new environment for NewMars...

I am particularly hoping the new Category for Industry will be of interest.

However, the Admins are interested in new Categories you may want to see, and at this point, there are very few barriers to prevent creation of new Categories in the test environment.  Each new category needs:

A name...
A description (only the Admins see this but we need it)
A topic to start it out (for example, the new Category "Industry" has a Topic "Water" that had to be created so the Category would show up.

For SpaceNut and all ...
The Azure phpBB3 test site is fully populated with Categories and Forums ...
Please visit and register and run some experiments!
Anyone can register.  When you first register your are a Newbee, so SpaceNut or I have to admit you to the group of "Esteemed Regular Members".
You signal your desire to be elevated by creating a post. A flag is set that SpaceNut or I will see when we log in.
Once that elevated status is achieved, you can create topics and posts as you might be inspired.
The forum has other features you are welcome to explore.
http://40.75.112.55/phpBB3/index.php
(th)

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re very nice reply to SpaceNut in http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 01#p222101

I am hoping to encourage you to follow up on your hint that there may be a lower limit to the size of an energy storage system that uses CO2 and molten salt.

Your post seems (as I read it) to rule out such a system for home use, but I'm hoping you might be willing to size a system that is the smallest that might be feasible.

If you are thinking about economic factors as opposed to physical ones, please concentrate on the physical factors. 

What I am looking for is an energy storage system that is as small as possible while as efficient as possible and as reliable as possible.

You and kbd512 and others have been considering a wide range of technologies over the years.  I'm hoping all that thought can be brought into focus in a design for the Real Universe that can be evaluated by investors for deployment where conditions are right.

There are customers who will pay far more than market rates for superior technology.

I am willing to look for them, if you can provide a solution.

(th)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

There are almost always variables within any design that allow for changes in a commercial design that others could buy once being mass produced for off the shelf use.

Everyone has the ability to make use of the sun, wind, water and fuels but the path to the desired end is where true engineering minds shine. As it's that outside of the box thinking that makes the impossible possible.

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For SpaceNut re #82

We are in Calliban's personal topic .... I am thinking about your observations in #82

As an engineer, Calliban is required to think ** in ** the box.

Calliban needs folks like Void to do "out of the box" thinking.

If you want an energy storage system that is affordable and which is also reliable and maintainable, you're going to need input from a ** lot ** of people who are able to think "in" the box.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

This post is offered to highlight more creative thinking by Calliban....

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 17#p222217

This post appears in one of Void's forward looking topics.  It provides a very reasonable, solid argument for a business providing supplies to interplanetary shipping.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re phpBB3 test forum....

Please consider registering in the new test forum, and expanding the new Industry Category.

As a Regular Member, you will be able to create topics.  What I'm after is someone showing SpaceNut what might happen if he were to create an Industry Category in our current forum.  Every new Category needs at least one topic, and I have created a couple of examples, but I expect you would have a number of suggestions for industries which must exist on Mars for a successful community to establish and maintain itself.

You might get some ideas by looking at the My Hacienda topic in this forum.  I ** think ** you have already visited that topic, but this is a reminder since it may have been a while.

(th)

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,794

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

It won't accept my login details.  Do i need to reregister?

---

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re #86

Thank you for participating in checkout of new software!

We have two tests underway, and I can't tell from your post which one you were trying.

The new forum is at phpBB3.  I need to set up an account for you there, and will do so.

The other is a clone of FluxBB, and you should be able to log in there using your existing credentials.

To help you to help us, here are the URL's:

To log into the clone, use: http://40.75.112.55/forums/FluxBB/index.php

To log into the new phpBB3 system, use: http://40.75.112.55/phpBB3/index.php

The clone is red (Fire). Just use your existing credentials!  Your test of this software is valuable. We have brought the software forward from 2012 to 2024.
Most of the features seem to be working, but there are still some warnings and there may even be a more serious error lurking. We need to exercise all the features of the clone before we can deliver it to the Mars Society for installation (via webmaster kbd512).

The phpBB3 system is blue(default).  Thank you for giving me an opportunity to fine tune the process of adding a new member.

We have implemented the email registration process, but for our current members, a message in the production forum will work fine, just as you have done.

It appears that I must create an account using normal registration, so I will do that now, and report back when the account is ready for you.

The new Calliban account is created at phpBB3. The password is from a post: This is a relatively small city of about 50,000 people in the North of England.

Please note that the password has both upper and lower case letters, just like the original.

Please change the password immediately after you log in. Please post something so we (SpaceNut, kbd512, RobertDyck or I) can change your membership from pending to Regular.  We will receive a message informing us of your arrival. You are the first member to go through this process, so please be patient.

Update: I just logged into phpBB3 using the new account and the temporary password. The account appears to be ready for you.

Update: Please be sure to update the email address for your account.  I have set a temporary email account that does not exist.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban...

Thank you again for offering to serve as a member of the software testing committee for the two test sites.

You are able to log into the clone using your existing credentials.

You are (now) able to log into the phpBB3 test forum using Calliban and the temporary password.

In the case of the phpBB3 forum, please adjust your account immediately after login:

1) Change the password
2) Change the email address
3) Log out and log back in to confirm all is well

Please note ... the email subsystem is not working in the phpBB3 system. I have not yet learned how to set that up.
However, we need for you to set up a valid email, because we may learn how to set up the email subsystem at any time.

If you have any problems, you are welcome to report them in the appropriate topic:

Use the phpBB3 topic for problems with the phpBB3 system.

Use the Azure topic for problems with the clone. (there may well be problems! We are looking for them)

For problems with ** this ** board, just use Housekeeping or your personal topic.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re Safe Arrival at phpBB3 test forum!

Thank you for completing the process to post on the new forum.

Because you are the first person to go through this, I am hoping you might be willing to relate your experience.

I am wondering if SpaceNut might have granted Registered Member status? That is certainly possible.  Or perhaps I set up the account so you are a Registered Member right away. 

As a small (but important) request, please change your emall address  ... right now it is set to the admins of the forum, which is circular.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re support of Solar Trough concept ...

In the recent Google Meeting, kbd512 indicated possible interest in moving beyond had waving to actual implementation of a large solar concentration facility.

Your support would be (or could be) helpful.

I am interested in seeing real Universe facilities come out of the two decades of conversation in this forum.

There are two ways to go... each has advantages and disadvantages...

An existing facility can be replicated.

A brand new facility can be designed, sold to investors, constructed and operated.

kbd512 accepted the opportunity to find existing operations that might be replicated.

Your analysis could/would be helpful in either case.

Do you have a preference for how to approach this?

(th)

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,794

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

TH, I will give it some thought.  Success depends on keeping capital costs and build times as low as possible.

---

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re #91 plus a new post in Thermal Energy topic....

Thank you for considering the idea of helping kbd512 with his ambitious concept for a large scale thermal energy storage and solar concentration facility.

I believe the funding for such a project is likely to be available, if such a project is well designed, and well positioned for a specific location in the US.

Recently, you added to a topic that I ** think ** was flowing in the vicinity of a home sized installation that SpaceNut might be able to afford.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 11#p222511

My view of this is that the cost of a well designed installation could justify a mortgage loan with the standard (US) stretch of 30 years.  A well designed installation should last that long, and the underground components should last far longer.  The mechanical components will have to be replaced periodically.  Your suggestion of insulation for the home is a good one, and that should be included in the project estimate.

My question for you today, is about how the forum can organize itself to facilitate meaningful planning for a Real Universe project.  This forum was created 20+ years ago for wide ranging discussion of subjects generally relating to Mars.  The range of discussion has indeed been wide, in geospacial terms, and covering the entire range from the beginning of the Universe to it's possible end.

We have an opportunity to organize ourselves to add practical, Real Universe planning to the mix, while retaining the full range of speculation we've supported all these years.

In the clone forum, SpaceNut has been experimenting with creation of new categories, and those experiments show that the Admin software is able to create Categories and new Forums in the FluxBB software we are running.

I have proposed a variety of new Categories, but to this point, they are implemented only in the phpBB3 test forum, which we created for evaluation.

To recap for all NewMars members who might read this post...

A Category is a level created by SpaceNut, that contains entire Forums.

A Category is at the Level of Meta New Mars, for example.

Below a Category, SpaceNut can create Forums.  A forum can then be filled with topics, and Regular Members can create topics.

I recommend that before SpaceNut or kbd512 create a new Category in the existing NewMars structure, we think through what we would like to see.

Some of the Categories created 20+ years ago have proven resilient and popular, and some have not.

I would like to see us move to a structure that supports Real Universe achievement, such as SpaceNut's home heating project.

A possible structure for this might be:

Category: Projects

Forums under Projects:

Large scale solar capture and thermal storage project led by kbd512

Small scale home heating project led by SpaceNut

Other projects with specific goals that can be filled with topics such as best choice for energy storage material

I would ask that our Admins please seek consensus of the members before introducing changes at the Category level.

We only have a few active members at this point, so consensus should be possible.

We have the opportunity to try out ideas in the clone site.  Nothing we do there will be brought back to the primary forum when we replace the software.

On the other hand, ideas that prove helpful and useful in the clone can be manually introduced to the primary forum by SpaceNut and kbd512.

We can invite SpaceNut to try out ideas in the clone, and see how they work there, without changing the primary forum.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re new post in topic about orbital refueling or not ...

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 30#p223030

Thank you for contributing this interesting question. I'm looking forward to seeing replies that may come in.

In the mean time, I'd like to remind you that we have a ** real ** rocket scientist in the community, and you are welcome to review his videos at exRocketman1 on YouTube.  It is possible you may find an explanation of why orbital refueling might be a good idea before you send a mission to Mars.

On the other hand, your proposal for a three stage heavy launcher with reusable first and second stages is ** very ** interesting.  Such a configuration might allow sending of a fully fueled stage to Mars where it will be able to use a full load of fuel to accelerate to catch up with Mars, and then descend to the surface using fuel that was transported all the way from Earth.

In any case, thanks again for helping the orbital refueling topic along.

The purpose of the topic is to show ** how ** to do orbital refueling, and it is not intended to defend the concept of orbital refueling.

Orbital fueling is one of many tools available to a mission planner, so we have a topic devoted to how to do it.  To my knowledge, except for very early experiments performed on a small scale, no Earth based entity has succeeded in accomplishing the feat.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

As a follow up for Calliban ...

Your hypothesis/suggestion that a three stage rocket might be able to land a payload on Mars is supported by evidence:

Per Google:

AI Overview
Learn more
…
As of January 2024, all 10 successful robotic rocket landings on Mars have used three rocket stages. These landings have been conducted by the United States (NASA), the Soviet Union (now Russia), and China.

Britannica
Space exploration - Solar System, Probes, Missions - Britannica
All three of those stages have been carried out for the Moon, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, a comet, and several asteroids. Several Soviet and U.S. robotic ...

quora.com
How many successful rocket landings have there been on Mars?
Jan 27, 2024 — there have been 10 successful robotic rocket landings on Mars. These landings have been conducted by three different space agencies: the United States (NASA), the Soviet Union (now Russia), and China. Here is a list of all the successful Mars land...
The first successful Mars landing was the Soviet Union's Mars 3 in 1971, but the spacecraft only lasted 110 seconds on the surface. NASA's Viking 1 and Viking 2 were the first successful NASA landers in 1975, and NASA's Mars Pathfinder in 1996 delivered the first Mars rover, Sojourner. In 2021, China's Tianwen 1 became the first Chinese lander and rover to successfully land on Mars.
Generative AI is experimental.
How many missions have successfully landed on Mars?
Have all of the Mars missions been successful?
When was the first successful rocket mission to Mars launched by NASA?
Ask a follow up...

The difference between the ten flights reported as successful, and your proposal (as I understand it) is that you would make the lower two stages reusable.

I conclude that your suggestion of a three stage solution is not only feasible, it is the ** only ** solution that has worked to date.

The on-orbit refueling initiative is an attempt to achieve more than is possible with the proven three stage solution.

It should be noted that the ten missions have all involved small mass payloads delivered to the surface.  The problem to be solved is how to deliver 40 or more tons to the surface.  You can find a study of exactly that problem in one or more of the exRocketman1 YouTube videos.

(th)

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,794

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

You are no doubt correct TH.  Assuming that most of the braking at Mars can be achieved via aerobraking and only 1km/s propulsive dV is needed for landing - I estimate total mission propulsive dV from surface to surface of 14.5km/s.  For a 5000te liftoff mass (same as Starship), using raptor engines, I estimate that payload delivery to Mars surface would be 27 tonnes, not including vehicle mass.  That is a lot less than 100te and would preclude a lot of heavy items.

---

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re #05

Thanks for your estimate of 27 tons that might be landed on Mars....

If you ever have time to read posts by GW Johnson, you may find that aerobraking is out of the question for payloads much over 1 ton.

In his posts, he explains why the idea of using aerobraking for any payload greater than about a ton is less than optimum.

https://www.youtube.com/user/ExRocketMan1

The first video is about landing multi-ton payloads on Mars.  If you want to land 27 tons on Mars, this video may be able to show you how to do it.

(th)

GW Johnson

Member

From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,801

Website

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For a Mars landing straight off the interplanetary trajectory,  you hit the atmosphere at between 5.4 and 7.5 km/s.  You have to hit shallow (about 2 deg below horizontal),  or you strike the surface at orbital speeds.  You come out of the hypersonics at local Mach 3 (about 0.7 km/s on Mars) at low altitudes  in that thin atmosphere.  That's some 4.7 to 6.8 km/s worth of (hypersonic) aerobraking in the Martian atmosphere.

If you are under about a ton to be landed,  that "low altitude" at end of hypersonics is 20-25 (maybe a tad more) km up above the surface.  There's time enough available to deploy a supersonic-capable chute and also time enough available for it to decelerate you to an approximately-sonic terminal velocity (about 0.24 km/s) as you get very close to the surface.  From there,  you need some sort of rocket-braking scheme to slow you to a survivable touchdown speed (240 m/s is NOT survivable).  The chute gives you something near an additional 0.5 km/s worth of (simply supersonic) aerobraking. 

If you are well over about a ton to be landed,  you will come out of the hypersonics at local Mach 3 too low;  there is insufficient time to deploy a chute,  much less the time for it to slow you down.  Instead,  you go straight to rocket braking,  unless you have the lift to execute a supersonic pull-up maneuver at 0-5 km altitudes.  The pull-up would decelerate you to high subsonic,  from which you rocket-brake to land.  Otherwise,  without the pull-up,  you just rocket-brake to land from roughly about local Mach 3.  The pull-up substitutes about 0.5 km/s worth of (simply supersonic) aerobraking for that from the chute you cannot use.  If you cannot use the pull-up,  you don't get any (simply supersonic) aerobraking,  you just have to increase the rocket braking.

The bigger you are,  the lower your end-of-hypersonics altitude.  At about 40 tons,  that's about 5 km altitude,  a single handful of seconds from impact.  It can be done,  even near 100 tons,  though.  The trouble with direct rocket braking is that too low an end-of-hypersonics altitude is too high a required average gees to endure.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2024-05-15 09:11:23)

---

GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,794

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

Thanks GW.  This is useful.  In terms of delta-v needed to get to Mars capture, is there any advantage to direct throw over accelerating from LEO to Earth escape?  That is to say, does it cost much additional dV achieving LEO before accelerating to Earth escape?

---

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re Muon topic ...

Thanks for the inspiration for this new topic, and thanks for picking up on MB4M's collection of citations!

This topic has room to grow, as new research results arrive, and your forecast of possible practical development seems encouraging.

Of all our members, you may be the best qualified to supervise development of the topic as a useful reference.

A power supply industry would be self sustaining, if a combination of techniques (such as those you suggested) can deliver useful outputs while managing risk with success.  Such an industry would not be for the faint of heart.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,421

Re: Calliban Postings including links to notable contributions

For Calliban re slavery ....

This is an interesting topic, and I was interested to read your response to MB4M's latest update ...

I'd like to offer a larger view of the subject.

There are many forms of slavery.... control of other human beings is the key element in all forms (as near as I can tell).

You might be right that one religion might have more control over human beings than another, but there are a ** lot ** of religions or cults in human history.

What I think they all come down to is a human male finding a way to capture other human beings for whatever purpose might be expedient.

The production of cotton was certainly a "success" story for a long stretch in the US, and production of sugar was certainly a 'success" story in the islands controlled by Europeans.

I put focus on the human male, but acknowledge that human females may well have enjoyed the privileges that came with possessing control over other humans.

In that context, I don't think economics is a factor.  Human beings ** really ** like having a servant.

That's just how humans are wired.

(th)