H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

Palomar · 2002-06-12 16:27:42

I was actually having 2nd thoughts about posting this, for fear of it sounding like a stupid question. I've not read extensively at this particular folder (dealing with Marsian water issues), so please forgive any redundancy in subject matter...it's not intentional.

I got over my 2nd thoughts about posting when I read the following under the Topic Header right here at the message board, typed in by whoever set up the message board and its folders: "Where is the water on Mars now?"

I'm not doubting there once was water on Mars, or may have been. I'm not a scientist; however, it's a valid question and I'm asking it (or, rather, re-asking it).

So where is the water? There are no clouds on Mars, so there's no cycle of clouds-rain-bodies of water-evaporation-etc., like here on Earth. Except for the polar ice caps of Mars, there's no moisture to be seen anywhere on the planet. Has moisture been DETECTED anywhere else? Perhaps the water seeped underground and is naturally stored there now? If Mars had a great quantity of water in the past, what DID happen to it?

As you can tell, I'm not a scientist. But I am "afflicted" with curiosity. And please, if your response must include long strings of mathematical formulae, at least give some explanation of what it means or is intended to mean.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2002-06-12 16:45:27

Well, as it looks now, most of the water is stored underground in the regolith.

As far as we know, over time, the nearly pure CO2 atmosphere degenerated into carbonate rock due to cycling water. The CO2 is still there, it's just in rock.

The water cycle probably had water evaporating in the northern hemisphere, travelling to the southern hemisphere, raining, and flowing back to the northern hemisphere. I think, right now, we can safely say that once the atmosphere reached a critical point, everything simply ... stopped. The water in the southern hemisphere froze in the regolith. And the great ocean that was once in the northern hemisphere, froze, and has sublimed since.

This is my interpretation of it though. I'm totally open to other suggestions.

Odyssey does conclusively show that water is in the regolith in the southern hemisphere. I'm just trying to explain how it got there.

Do not be surprised if Odyssey shows just as much, if not more water in the northern hemisphere ( that ocean is still there, it's just a few feet under the ground! ).

So yeah, Cindy, you're probably right on.

Anyone want to give Cindy the mathematical formulas?

Palomar · 2002-06-13 13:35:30

Josh wrote: "Do not be surprised if Odyssey shows just as much, if not more water in the northern hemisphere ( that ocean is still there, it's just a few feet under the ground! )."

*Maybe this should go in a "terraforming" folder, but since we're discussing water here, I'm wondering (and, yes, trying to project VERY far into the possible Marsian future): If, through man's efforts, large bodies of water are one day a reality on Mars -- will it be possible, based on Mars soil composition, water/atmosphere composition, to introduce fish, corral, and the like on Mars? On Earth we have fresh water and salt water, of course. Would water on Mars be salt-based or fresh, or other? And since our bodies of water have their own unique ecosystems, is it possible to project having fish and etc. on Mars some day? It would be strange to think of large bodies of water with no life forms in them. I suppose these are really BIG MAYBE questions to the extreme, but I'm going with my flow of thought here, like usual.

Josh: "Anyone want to give Cindy the mathematical formulas?"

*No, please! Have mercy! I'm highly allergic to numbers! :0

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

Shaun Barrett · 2002-06-14 06:47:39

Hi Cindy!
I believe one of the famous Mars meteorites (SNC meteorites, I think they call them) showed evidence of salty water having percolated through it at some stage.
Since reading about that, I have tended to think in terms of a salty ocean on Mars in the past. Assuming there was an ocean at all, of course!
If we do ever (re)create an Oceanus Borealis, and if it's salty, I can't see any reason in principle why we shouldn't be able to introduce Terran sea-creatures. But the ecology of Earth's oceans is complex and one creature depends on another which depends on another etc. I suppose marine zoologists would have to start with the lowest members of the food-chain first and then gradually introduce other species at the appropriate times.
Then there's the problem of numbers. There is, for instance, a minimum number of, say, blue whales in Earth's oceans, below which they won't find each other often enough to breed successfully! So you probably couldn't drop a few whales into your brand new Martian ocean and expect them to carry on from there. It would take a lot of planning by very smart people to make the whole thing work, and I wouldn't be surprised if they made quite a few false starts before getting it right.
This is an interesting thing to consider. Thanks for bringing it up! It just goes to show that terraforming, though complicated, is really just the beginning of something that will keep humanity busy for many centuries to come!
We'd better get started as soon as possible!!

Palomar · 2002-06-14 11:25:56

Shaun writes: "If we do ever (re)create an Oceanus Borealis, and if it's salty, I can't see any reason in principle why we shouldn't be able to introduce Terran sea-creatures. But the ecology of Earth's oceans is complex and one creature depends on another which depends on another etc. I suppose marine zoologists would have to start with the lowest members of the food-chain first and then gradually introduce other species at the appropriate times.

Then there's the problem of numbers. There is, for instance, a minimum number of, say, blue whales in Earth's oceans, below which they won't find each other often enough to breed successfully! So you probably couldn't drop a few whales into your brand new Martian ocean and expect them to carry on from there. It would take a lot of planning by very smart people to make the whole thing work, and I wouldn't be surprised if they made quite a few false starts before getting it right."

*Hi Shaun! Yes. A great amount of time with very meticulous planning will have to be involved. I'm thinking it'll require generations of mankind on Mars before the more-than-rudimentary lifeforms "take" in the Marsian water environment. I'm wondering if possible natural mutations (even if very SLIGHT mutations) in the "lower" species during the interim of trying to introduce higher and more complex species will cause additional challenges as well. It would be very interesting to see how this project would progress and develop. I'm thinking it'll be easier to introduce marine life successfully to Mars once large bodies of water are established than it will be to introduce and sustain generations of land-based mammals, birds, etc. But, of course, I could be wrong. I'm just speculating...

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

Phobos · 2002-06-14 15:16:53

I'm thinking it'll be easier to introduce marine life successfully to Mars once large bodies of water are established than it will be to introduce and sustain generations of land-based mammals, birds, etc. But, of course, I could be wrong. I'm just speculating...

It's probably safe to assume that marine creatures would be a lot easier to introduce than land based ones simply because the water is a good source of shielding from cosmic radiation. But then again if you got oceans your probably have a nice thick atmosphere that could block harmful radiation from land animals as well.

Palomar · 2002-06-14 16:08:35

It's probably safe to assume that marine creatures would be a lot easier to introduce than land based ones simply because the water is a good source of shielding from cosmic radiation. But then again if you got oceans your probably have a nice thick atmosphere that could block harmful radiation from land animals as well.

*Most likely I'm talking waaaay out of my league, but here are a few more ideas:

I'm thinking that marine-based life will also be easier to introduce because an enclosed body of water (a large pond, lake, small ocean) is, of course, isolated and thus can be controlled (or attempted to be controlled). Also, what is introduced into that body of water --though it will have to adapt to the differences Marsian gravity and etc has upon water from that of Earth's -- will be able to move freely about in the water (I suppose). Of course, this is presuming Mars has a bit more atmosphere and warmth then than it does now. I presume in the initial stages of trying to "grow" marine life on Mars, said body of water will be in the equatorial regions...if even that doesn't freeze or is so cold that it kills anything attempted to be introduced into it.

The more I think about it, the more daunting it becomes. Yes, this is indeed a worthwhile challenge for humanity!

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-06-14 17:53:02

Also, what is introduced into that body of water --though it will have to adapt to the differences Marsian gravity and etc has upon water from that of Earth's -- will be able to move freely about in the water (I suppose).

That's a good point. Large sea animals probably wouldn't have a problem with the effects of gravity but microscopic animals like plankton might not be able to adapt to the high surface tension. If such life can't cope than I think we're in trouble if we plan to introduce marine life. Plankton is one of the most important lifeforms in the foodchain. Another problem to contend with is the lack of tides. Land dwelling life might not be affected much by the lack of tides, but sea life definately will be. A lot of sea life depends on the tides as a marker for feeding, breeding, etc. Tides can be simulated in tanks, but for a Martian ocean, I think we might have problems.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-06-14 19:45:42

Hi BGD!
I don't think we know enough about the Martian regolith and the amounts of chemicals in it to really get a handle on what would happen if you swamped it with water.
But your point is well taken. It may take a long time for the chemistry of a new Martian ocean to settle down and, in the early stages, the pH may fluctuate wildly. I don't know. And I don't think anyone else really does either.
I have expressed concern in another post about how any Oceanus Borealis, being centred on the north pole, would be prone to freezing. Cindy raises this fear again, and rightly so. It could be a major problem unless we keep the average temperature on Mars close to 293K, which is warmer than Earth's average of about 288K.
Phobos brings up the subject of tides. This is a potentially very significant difference between Earth and Mars as far as ocean life goes. I tend to ignore it and hope it will go away! But the long-term consequences of not having tides could conceivably be critical to the survival of a marine ecosystem. Does anyone have any educated input on this subject? Adrian! ... You're a biologist. Any ideas on this one?
:0

Byron · 2002-06-15 07:57:41

Here's my two cents on this issue...if a northern ocean is indeed created, I imagine the bio-engineers would introduce specially adapted lower-level lifeforms at first to cope with the harsh initial conditions, and this in turn, should stablilize the ocean enough to introduce higher level lifeforms (Martian sharks, anyone?? just kidding..lol)

As for keeping Oceanus Borealis ice-free for the most part, I think this would be acomplished by giant mirrors over the North Pole to redirect the sun's energy onto the northern hemisphere to keep it from freezing over. I did read Shaun's post in another forum about pumping up the average global temperature on Mars to something like 20-25 C...and I do have to take issue with this idea of such a high temperature on Mars. I live in South Florida (a place where summer never ends...), and believe me when I say the Earth, currently at 15 C, is too hot as it is... I may be biased in saying this, but I really relish the idea of Mars being cooler than Earth, even after terraforming.

If Mars was five degrees C (nine degrees F) hotter than the Earth is now (if that was even achievable), I can't imagine how hot it would be in the equatorial regions of Mars, or in the Southern Hemispheric summer, when the planet is so much closer to the sun then.

In my humble opinion, Mars will always be colder and dryer than Earth, and that's the way it should be. Even if Mars was around 280 degrees K (a reasonable terraforming goal, I think) we should be able to keep the northern ocean ice-free below 60 degress of latitude thoughout most of the year, esp. with help from the mirrors I mentioned above. Also, keeping the "sea level" at a low level, around 2k below the "datum," (where the air is thicker and warmer) would also assist in keeping the ocean warm enough to stay above freezing, although the rest of the planet would still be a bit chilly by Earth standards.

B

Palomar · 2002-06-15 11:05:06

Phobos writes: "Another problem to contend with is the lack of tides. Land dwelling life might not be affected much by the lack of tides, but sea life definately will be. A lot of sea life depends on the tides as a marker for feeding, breeding, etc. Tides can be simulated in tanks, but for a Martian ocean, I think we might have problems."

Shaun writes: "Phobos brings up the subject of tides. This is a potentially very significant difference between Earth and Mars as far as ocean life goes. I tend to ignore it and hope it will go away!"

*Tides...yes, tides. I momentarily forgot that "little" item in my musings. Oh, geez. Well, on a positive note, maybe Marsians will never have to worry about being eaten by sharks. ???

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

Phobos · 2002-06-15 15:24:01

I may be biased in saying this, but I really relish the idea of Mars being cooler than Earth, even after terraforming.

Oh my god! Somebody else out there actually likes it when it's not a 190 degrees outside? Seems like the people where I live always complain about the weather when it dips somewhere below the 105 range. I guess it might be nice if you can afford the air conditioning bills! Personally, I hate it when it goes up 80 degrees, unless I'm swimming.

*Tides...yes, tides. I momentarily forgot that "little" item in my musings. Oh, geez. Well, on a positive note, maybe Marsians will never have to worry about being eaten by sharks.

LOL! Yeah, it'll be hard to live on a planet without a big ocean to visit and little tide pools to gawk over strange life in. The ocean is a magical place. MAybe we should just take Shaun's advice and ignore the whole problem. Maybe it'll just go away.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-06-16 07:34:03

I know where Byron is coming from. I live 16 degrees off the equator and summer here gets pretty sticky!
I have no quarrel with his 280 deg.K planetary average just as long as the northern ocean doesn't freeze over. The problem which bothers me is the high albedo of ice. If you allow too much of the ocean to freeze white, you start losing a lot of insolation through reflection off the ice ... which leads to lower temperatures ... which leads to more ice .... !! A runaway refrigeration effect. As I've recently mentioned elsewhere, this effect, even here on Earth, worries me more than the possibility of global warming.
Byron is probably right. We'll most likely have to use mirrors to artificially elevate the north polar temperature. Otherwise, as he suggests, we may have to swap cold deserts for hot deserts at the equator and over large areas of the southern hemisphere.
Just to throw another curve-ball into the argument, I have another little problem I like to try and ignore! Mars has no overall, uniform, magnetic field. I'm no zoologist but I know that many species here on Earth rely on a strong steady magnetic field in order to function properly (or at all! ). What if far more species than we realise have to have such a field in order to live?! What if almost all Earth life gradually falters and dies without that field? Unlikely, I suppose. But it's an idea which has obviously never been tested, apart from a few humans who managed to remain functional on the Moon for a few days. On Mars, at the very least, you can forget about racing your homing pigeons ... they won't know north from south from a hole in the wall! But it could be much more serious than that. Who knows?!
No tides, no homing pigeons ... maybe no viable life at all! Can anybody out there cheer me up??!!
???

Palomar · 2002-06-16 11:58:10

Shaun writes: "Just to throw another curve-ball into the argument, I have another little problem I like to try and ignore! Mars has no overall, uniform, magnetic field. I'm no zoologist but I know that many species here on Earth rely on a strong steady magnetic field in order to function properly (or at all! ). What if far more species than we realise have to have such a field in order to live?!"

*Hmmm. When you say "no overall, uniform magnetic field" I am presuming correctly that this means the magnetic field is stronger in some areas than others -- ? Is it entirely absent in some areas of Mars?

How much stronger is Earth's magnetic field as compared to that of Mars? Do the magnetic fields on Mars have an "ebb and flow" in intensity/strength in the areas where they are (stronger or weaker)?

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

Phobos · 2002-06-16 12:39:30

Not really.
I always thought the best thing to do would be to put Venus into the orbit of Mars and Mars into the orbit of Venus. What do you think of that ? (not considering that right now it's more than impossible ).

I have no idea how you'd do that, but if you were using the volatiles on both planets to move them into different orbits you'd likely have nothing left on the planet to make it worth colonizing in the first place. That would be one hell of a space tug though.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-06-16 20:46:51

Hi Cindy!
I can't remember actual figures for the Martian magnetic fields ... yes, FIELDS! There are lots of areas with apparently "fossilised" remnant magnetic fields of various strengths and orientations. These are supposed to be left over from earlier times when Mars generated a more Earth-like and, presumably, more uniform and encompassing magnetic field. One of the magnetic charts I saw for Mars showed bands of alternating north/south polarity frozen into the crust either side of a central line or fault. This was so much like the effect you get here on Earth on either side of the join in two tectonic plates (such as the mid-atlantic ridge) that it caused both excitement and much puzzlement! We hadn't thought of Mars as having plate tectonics at all, but maybe at the beginning there was a brief period when the crust was active and mobile. Who knows!
In general, though, the fields on Mars are weak and very regional. But in some areas, they are strong enough to shield the atmosphere from the erosion caused by the solar wind, which is called "sputtering"
It seems to me that the magnetic field(s) on Mars would be inadequate, not to say totally confusing, for life-forms trying to use it (or them) for navigation etc. The core of the planet is apparently not generating a significant field any more. All we have left are the scraps!
???

Palomar · 2002-06-18 10:12:16

It seems to me that the magnetic field(s) on Mars would be inadequate, not to say totally confusing, for life-forms trying to use it (or them) for navigation etc. The core of the planet is apparently not generating a significant field any more. All we have left are the scraps!
???

Hi Shaun. Okay...I think I follow you here.

In other words, a compass would be useless on Mars? Would this effect aviation? Gimbols don't rely on magnetic fields, but rather on coordinates -- correct?

I know essentially nothing about aviation, but I'm wondering how the Marsian magnetic field situation might (or might not) effect attempts to land there? Do our Earth aircraft rely on our magnetic fields in any manner?

Are coordinates, with the use of gimbols, enough for an air-borne craft on Mars to get around?

Can you tell I know next to nothing about this stuff?

--Cindy ???

MS member

Bill White · 2002-06-18 13:09:42

We could simply use GPS, if we could put those satellites in orbit around Mars, of course.

A constellation of such satellites would also be necessary for long distance radio communications - I seem to recall that Mars lacks an ionosphere (right?) to reflect radio transmissions to folks over the horizon.

Placing a dozen or so micro-sats in Mars orbit - for communications and GPS duty would be one logical place to begin building infrastructure.

Palomar · 2002-06-18 13:15:04

Bill W: "GPS duty..."

BGD: "We could simply use GPS."

*Next question! What the heck is GPS?

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

Shaun Barrett · 2002-06-18 22:48:44

I don't think we rely on compasses as much as we used to for navigation because Global Positioning System satellites have largely taken over.
As Bill points out, on Mars we don't have such a system ... yet. And we can't use magnetic compasses either because of the lack of a planet-wide field.
But even though we can put a GPS system in place and solve the navigation problem for us and our machines, that doesn't answer the question about the effect on Earth-evolved animals of living without a global magnetic field. I read somewhere that during polarity reversals on Earth (which occur every few million years), when for a brief period there is no clear north or south, the animal extinction rate appears to increase. Whether this may be due to animals being unable to navigate to breeding grounds or to "fly south for winter", or whether it is due to the solar wind being able to reach Earth's surface in the absence of our protective field, thus increasing radiation-induced mutations, is unclear.
God knows what might happen on Mars! Maybe ecological chaos ... or maybe life will quickly adapt and find alternative means of navigation. We won't know until we get there, I suppose.
???

Shaun Barrett · 2002-06-26 05:25:37

If this information has already been mentioned in another forum, I apologise!
But have you all seen the news about the discovery of a major lake basin to the south of Gusev crater?!
Gusev is at about 15 deg. S. and 187 deg. W. and lies at the lower end of Ma'adim Vallis.
The lake basin contained 5 times more water than the Great Lakes of North America and they have found the ancient shoreline!
At its northern end, the paleolake flowed over a ridge which acted as a natural weir. Eventually, the ridge eroded and flow rates increased. This led to ever faster erosion and the final catastrophic collapse of the ridge. The Ma'adim Vallis, which is a larger feature than the Grand Canyon, was gouged out by billions of tons of water flowing north out of the 2240 kilometre-long lake towards Gusev crater!!
Exciting enough though this may be, what interests me is the fact that the surface of the lake appears to have been about 1.5 kilometres above datum. And yet, water was flowing out of it over the natural weir formed by the ridge! Scientists have deduced from this that Mars must have been even warmer and wetter than they had guessed. And I suppose the atmosphere must have been quite dense even at some considerable altitude.
This is all very welcome news for those of us interested in terraforming Mars, since the more water we have to work with, the easier the task will be. And this seems to indicate that Mars once had simply huge quantities of water! Although much may have been lost to space, it's looking more and more as though there's probably still enough there to fill that northern ocean Kim Stanley Robinson described so vividly!
Anyone for a dip?!!

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#1 2002-06-12 16:27:42

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#2 2002-06-12 16:45:27

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#3 2002-06-13 13:35:30

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#4 2002-06-14 06:47:39

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#5 2002-06-14 11:25:56

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#6 2002-06-14 15:16:53

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#7 2002-06-14 16:08:35

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#8 2002-06-14 17:53:02

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#9 2002-06-14 19:45:42

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#10 2002-06-15 07:57:41

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#11 2002-06-15 11:05:06

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#12 2002-06-15 15:24:01

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#13 2002-06-16 07:34:03

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#14 2002-06-16 11:58:10

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#15 2002-06-16 12:39:30

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#16 2002-06-16 20:46:51

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#17 2002-06-18 10:12:16

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#18 2002-06-18 13:09:42

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#19 2002-06-18 13:15:04

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

#20 2002-06-18 22:48:44

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#21 2002-06-26 05:25:37

Re: H20, where'd it go? - What happened to Marsian water?

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