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#26 2019-11-04 16:52:53

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,820

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Here is simple life and how it might be able to be quite the problem for man.
NASA grant to study space station fungus

The center has been awarded a $750,000 grant by NASA to increase our understanding of the organisms and investigate ways to stop them.

mold-grows-international-space-station-exercise-clothes-hung-dry-hg.jpg

Every long-term mission has seen a growth of microbes where you don't want to see on the shuttle, Mir, and ISS.

The microbes are a type of fungus or bacteria called a biofilm. They represent a threat in space because they eat through the surfaces they grow on, a process called biodegredation. Biofilm formation also increases the risk of human illness. "It shows up behind control panels and has gotten into heat exchangers and pipe systems. On Mir, they once noticed a pretty bad stench. Looking for its source, they pulled off a panel and found a lot of mold. That was the smell, but it was also consuming plastic cabling in that area,".

That is a risk we do not need on mars...

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#27 2019-11-24 17:55:05

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

An interesting video which argues that convergent evolution will be relevant across the universe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5qWuVOJCug


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#28 2019-11-29 22:33:48

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,820

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

When was the transition from single celled to multi as that is the path to complex life as we know it...sort of the chicken or the egg which came first

Animal embryos evolved before animals

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#29 2019-12-05 04:45:40

qraal
Member
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: 2008-01-02
Posts: 65

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

SpaceNut wrote:

When was the transition from single celled to multi as that is the path to complex life as we know it...sort of the chicken or the egg which came first

Animal embryos evolved before animals

If they're embryos. That's still being argued by the experts.

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#30 2019-12-05 08:27:08

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,799
Website

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

SpaceNut wrote:

When was the transition from single celled to multi as that is the path to complex life as we know it...sort of the chicken or the egg which came first

Stromatolite. A colony of single cell organisms. Held together, growing together. Predecessor to undersea plants?
220px-Pavilion_Lake_microbialite_towers.jpg

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#31 2022-03-30 07:52:36

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,009

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Rather than start a new topic, I decided to drop this item into one of the two created by Louis that contain the word "evolution"

It is fitting as well, because we have so many residents of the UK in the active forum.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … tion-in-an

The teaser for this article reads:

An artist’s impression of a Bronze age settlement

Lennart Larsen/Nationalmuseet

Natural selection was at work on Bronze Age Britons, ancient DNA reveals. Within the past 4500 years, evolution has acted on genes involved in the production of vitamin D – which people living in Britain are sometimes short of due to a lack of sunlight for much of the year.

The genetic changes have had knock-on effects on other traits, from the ability of people to
digest milk to their skin colour.

One of the ways evolutionary change can happen is through natural selection: …

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … z7P1gSzNOM

While the rest of the article is currently hidden from view, I expect it will/does shed light on the matter of natural selection as it will inevitably operate on Mars.

(th)

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#32 2022-03-30 13:26:28

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

I do think about convergent evolution a lot.

It seems to me that for any particular task there are certain potential solutions that life forms might come up with.  For dextrous handling of objects, hands with fingers and opposable thumb are very good.  But an octopus with eight tentacles can probably be just as dextrous. But I don't think we have any examples of tentacled creatures moving out of the sea and on to land. Is that just chance or is there something more at work there? It might be that on land, where gravity really weighs you down the energy budget for tentacles is not so great. It may be that a couple of arms that hand down at your side as you perambulate are evolution's most effecient solution to the dexterity solution.  If so we might see the solution being ubiquitous across not just our solar system but across the cosmos on non-watery surfaces.

For offence and defence, we see similar solutions in different branches of life - horns, antlers, teeth, clawss, spines, spikes, hard armour and so on.There is a limited range of options essentially - you might had things like electric shock, stings, squirting noxious substances or venoms and so on. But I think what we see on Earth probably pretty much exhausts the available possibilities that would apply on any planet. On other planet as on Earth, predators and prey will come into an states of equilibrium when offence only very slightly overcomes defence on average.

Again when you think of reproduction there are a limited range of possibilities. The initiating act of reproduction will have to have some sort of pleasure reward, to stop animals focussing entirely on food. Foetal development will have to be protected somehow - something like eggs or a womb or an exterior pouches are obvious possibilities.


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#33 2022-03-31 12:10:59

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

(th) per your post #31.  A very dangerous topic, and so less can be more.  However, it is good to understand if you can, while taking care not to feed pseudo science, and care not to upset people who may have problems actually understanding what words actually are intended to signify.  It is not good to stimulate an unnecessary social turmoil.

Things you might ponder are:

-If blue eyes are recessive, then why are there about 1/2 billion people on the planet with blue eyes now?  Blue eyes entered Europe before light skin did.  Light skin came from the Middle East, but not blue eyes.

-Farming's role in the matter.  It used to be that at least in this country, light skin indicated higher class, as you did not have to work in the fields.  Farms from before would have been an excellent place to store people with behavior problems.  But also a cooler climate will indicate that a farmer who even does field work with hand tools, may wear more clothing, and so absorb less U.V., Red Light, and perhaps also less Infrared light.  Of course now where most people spend most of their time strongly clothed and inside of buildings we are now in a hyper deficient environment on average.  For a while we were developing a nudist culture, but now for various reasons, the general population here is involved in extremely phobic thinking on the matter.  I could give a theory about why, but enough on it.  I think somewhere in and about the true Middle East, there are pale skinned people who have not yet darkened, because they wear lots of shading clothing that helps keep them cool, and also suits their religious preferences.  I would imagine that to do field work, the females may not disrobe, but perhaps males can to a degree, but I don't know what the benefit of it would be.  In some ways the garments keep people cool.  For instance sweat then grants evaporative cooling.

-While Vitamin 'D' is likely a true issue in the UK, there are people who drink Milk mixed with animal blood in places in Africa, so they can digest milk, I believe.  A query you may chase about is, "Is Melanin Toxic".  So far, I have seen that its precursors can be.  But I would not be surprised if information will be censored soon that may suggest that.

About Cave creatures.  Do they loose pigment because it is an unneeded expense, or can be pigments also be a burden chemically.  Granted, the pigments, are the choice to make, if you are a naked Aboriginal in the tropics.  But if you can regulate your sun input with cloths, and shelter, and sunscreen, then pigment might be selected against to a degree.

----

I do a small amount of UV tanning, which most doctors do not approve of.  However, a study of Elder Swedish women, showed that those getting sunlight did get more cancer, but in general lived longer than those who did not.

I also do Red Light therapy, which also includes Infrared light as well.  Our indoor environments lack these and this supposedly causes health problems for at least most 1st world people.

Here you go.  These will likely be wanted on Mars.  I believe the ISS pioneered this tech: https://joovv.com/

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-03-31 12:30:14)


Done.

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#34 2022-03-31 12:30:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Louis, Per your last post #32:

Consider Birds, which reportedly are Dinasaur's in disguise smile

Dinosaurs do not like to go to the vet to get their nails trimmed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRnApz3nMts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNrCKaG0MMg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNrCKaG0MMg

There are other Cockatoos, Barney, Gotcha, and others.  Vinny.

Gotcha: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Go … 314C283BD7

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Go … EA5E05D079

I am not sure the story telling is not a hoax.  It is funny even so:  Barney: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ba … 6BF4E72A11

Buster: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bu … A8D7A2831A

The animals are extremely high maintenance as far as I can see.  They use one foot predominantly as a hand, sort of.
Birds have superior breathing methods. 

There is a whole lot more to discuss about it but imagine a creature with six limbs.  Two wings, two hands, and two feet.  It did not happen here, but suppose another world with lower gravity and thicker atmosphere, an unknown level of Oxygen.  So, an interesting path.

I think that for efficiency the bird brain has a higher baud rate than that of humans.  To them we may seem to be "Slo-Mo".  I sort of think that may be true.

I am interested in brain implants for parrots.  And computers and robots that could communicate/interact with them at the baud rate that they are comfortable with. 

Then we might learn more about potential alien types.

I have sort of been watching Indian Ringnecks, they are likely less capable but they are interesting. 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ch … &FORM=VIRE

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-31 12:58:22)


Done.

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#35 2022-03-31 13:51:44

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Of course wings are a good example of convergent evolution having been developed by both dinosaurs/birds and bats.

Birds can react to quite complex commands and solve difficult problems for sure.  I love watching corvids interact with their environment and each other.  There was a dog that could fetch up to 200 separate soft toy from another room on 200 separate names/commands.  That was pretty impressive. Most humans could not do that.

But nearly all animals seem to need a food reward to develop these behaviours.

Whether "talking" - use of sound waves - is a general feature of intelligent land creatures across the cosmos is an interesting question.  Something like a squid's complex colour changes could be far more expressive than serial words.  Imagine an intelligent creature that comunicate simultaneous information about past present and future, about their emotional state and about intellecual ideas. A genius squid mathematician could make equations appear and disppear on their chest in an instant! Maybe smell and taste could be used for complex communication.  The problem of course is that smells get carried on the wind, this way and that, so might not be so effective.  Whale songs sound like they could carry a lot of information, more than human sentences.

Void wrote:

Louis, Per your last post #32:

Consider Birds, which reportedly are Dinasaur's in disguise smile

Dinosaurs do not like to go to the vet to get their nails trimmed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRnApz3nMts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNrCKaG0MMg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNrCKaG0MMg

There are other Cockatoos, Barney, Gotcha, and others.  Vinny.

Gotcha: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Go … 314C283BD7

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Go … EA5E05D079

I am not sure the story telling is not a hoax.  It is funny even so:  Barney: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ba … 6BF4E72A11

Buster: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bu … A8D7A2831A

The animals are extremely high maintenance as far as I can see.  They use one foot predominantly as a hand, sort of.
Birds have superior breathing methods. 

There is a whole lot more to discuss about it but imagine a creature with six limbs.  Two wings, two hands, and two feet.  It did not happen here, but suppose another world with lower gravity and thicker atmosphere, an unknown level of Oxygen.  So, an interesting path.

I think that for efficiency the bird brain has a higher baud rate than that of humans.  To them we may seem to be "Slo-Mo".  I sort of think that may be true.

I am interested in brain implants for parrots.  And computers and robots that could communicate/interact with them at the baud rate that they are comfortable with. 

Then we might learn more about potential alien types.

I have sort of been watching Indian Ringnecks, they are likely less capable but they are interesting. 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ch … &FORM=VIRE

Done.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#36 2022-03-31 20:23:11

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Well, we are permitted to diverge in what we think is important in these matters.  I think that the case for some Parots needing treats for training is related to the creatures really not being interested in doing what humans want without a bribe.  I think that the creatures do in fact have some greater capabilities than might be thought.

I will make the point that like us they have two legs, and are warm blooded, so in that sense there is some common ground.  But they lay eggs to reproduce, have feathers, and wings.  The nature of this planet has contributed to limiting their brain size, and of course a pregnant bird would also be very vulnerable to predators, so they still lay eggs.

But on another planet, this "Dead End" might not have played out.  Even Mars, in it's first 500 million years might have had a thicker atmosphere than we think and might have had Oxygen, and if so, due to a .38 g gravity field, it is possible that avian life might have developed larger brains, and perhaps a live bearing capability.

Even beyond that, my point was that there might be a extrasolar planet where Avian's might have become the top intelligence of the planet.

Where we have eventually mastered Lions, Tigers, and Bears, the Avian's might have gained mastery over their birds of prey.  Truely for Mars, I think the likelihood is small, but you did mention Mars.  But some lower gravity worlds around other stars???

And if such creatures became space travelers, perhaps they would have spin gravity worlds that they could fly inside of.

Humans may someday have wings in such similar worlds.  Cyborg humans of course.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-31 20:30:40)


Done.

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#37 2023-11-28 16:21:58

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,009

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

There are only two topics containing the word "evolution" in the title, and both were created by Louis.

This one attracted posts by a number of members, two or three of whom are still here ...

This post is inspired by recent posts by Mars_B4_Moon, in connection with lava tubes which (I understand) have been discovered and confirmed to exist in the Moon.

Mars_B4_Moon was working on a topic on indoor farming recently .... it occurred to me that evolution may be at work in the competition between genetic human variations organized at the Nation-State level .... At this point, it seems possible that China (for sure), the US (likely), and both India and Japan may establish a presence on the Moon, where (apparently) lava tubes would provide a ready-made location for long term habitats. 

Thus, at least these strains of humanity are likely to set up tentative bases on the Moon, and eventually on Mars as well.

(th)

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#38 2024-01-15 15:41:23

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,820

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Scientists Discover 'Key Stepping Stone' to the Origin of Life

The first forms of life on Earth emerged over 3.5 billion years ago from inert geological materials. The exact location of this emergence is still unclear, but many scientists believe that the earliest life forms appeared around deep-sea hydrothermal vents.

Hydrothermal vents are like rocky chimneys on the ocean floor which spew out plumes of superheated fluid from magma beneath the Earth's crust. "Hydrothermal vent sites, and in particular alkaline hydrothermal vents, are unique in bringing together several key threads in origins of life theories together,

As the minerals dissolve and are heated new combinations are created that when cooled and reheated would make others.

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#39 2024-02-29 20:21:18

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,820

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

How did life on Earth begin? The chemical puzzle just became clearer.

BB1j6MGU.img?w=768&h=512&m=6

People have long scratched their heads trying to understand how life ever got going after the formation of Earth billions of years ago. Now, chemists have partly unlocked the recipe by creating a complex compound essential to all life — in a lab.

Like making the ingredients of a cake, researchers have successfully created a compound critical for metabolism in all living cells, which is essential for energy production and regulation. The pathway, which has evaded scientists for decades, involved relatively simple molecules probably present on early Earth that combined at room temperature over months.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adk4432

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#40 2024-03-21 17:18:59

SpaceNut
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Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,820

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#41 2024-03-22 16:34:39

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,398

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Latest Mars update from Anton Petrov.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HJI06uS3OXE

Some new discoveries about the Mars methane anomaly.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#42 2024-03-22 19:49:58

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

A very good post Calliban.  I hate to post over it.  But I guess I will.  I have these things:

Tectonics for Mars: https://scitechdaily.com/how-ancient-vo … -of-earth/
Quote:

How Ancient Volcanoes on Mars Are Rewriting the Story of Earth
TOPICS:MarsPlanetsPopularThe University Of Hong KongVolcano
By THE UNIVERSITY OF HONG KONG FEBRUARY 24, 2024

To me the above indicates that geothermal for Mars may be different.  Vertical Tectonics may not have been as efficient to cool Mars as plate tectonics.  And being different perhaps we could find hot spots in different places than what would be true for Earth.

As for life on Mars, water: https://aasnova.org/2023/09/06/sandy-br … ng-liquid/
Quote:

Sandy, Briny Water on Mars Has a Better Chance of Remaining Liquid
By Kerry Hensley on 6 September 2023 FEATURES

Brine droplets in the soil may have variable salinity and temperature.  Perhaps at times the water is usable by life.

Life living on "Air": https://singularityhub.com/2021/11/19/h … %20burning.
Quote:

More remarkably, our research suggests that 90 percent of Antarctic soil bacteria may scavenge hydrogen from the air.

The bacteria gain energy from hydrogen, methane, and carbon by combining them with oxygen in a chemical process that is like a very slow kind of burning.

Now the video mentions Methane, we know that CO and Oxygen also exist in small quantities in the air, and I am betting that processes on Mars may also produce Hydrogen, things like U.V. light and the electric effects of a dust storm.

And it may also even be possible that the solar wind folds Hydrogen into the Martian Atmosphere.  I don't know if any of the solar wind's Hydrogen makes it to the surface, but it might at times.  If that is the case then the solar wind does not only take water away but might add water as it appears to do to the Moon.

Imagine a flat dark rock on the surface of Mars.  At some latitudes and in a warmer phase of season and orbit, it might warm enough to allow brine drops to be able to support life.  At times also such brine droplets might absorb moisture from the atmosphere.  So, at night eh brine might absorb more moisture, and then during the day lose moisture.  So, there might be a period going towards noon, perhaps where the conditions would be optimal warming brine that absorbed more moisture during the previous night.

The Martian atmosphere has the fuels CO, Methane, and H2 perhaps.  It also has traces of Oxygen, but it also has Perchlorate which come organisms can use.

Under such rocks protection from UV would exist, and also some protection from other types of radiation.

So, it is not that surprising that their tests indicated some adaptation of Earth life.  If they had included all the factors of this post most likely some microbes from Earth could do just fine in the soils of Mars, under some rocks.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-22 20:12:35)


Done.

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#43 2024-04-11 13:59:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,820

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

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#44 2024-04-11 21:17:46

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,377

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

To all interested parties: I'm currently in the process of developing a talk for the Yellowstone Valley Astronomy Association in Billings,Montana. The first key to figuring out how life "came to be" here on Earth is in the abiotic synthesis of biological molecules necessary for life. My talk will be based on the work of Harold C. Urey and Stanley Miller and the so-called Miller-Urey experiment of 1952 at the University of Chicago. In this experiment a glass vessel was charged with a "proteoatmosphere" of Methane, Ammonia, Hydrogen, and water vapor.A set of electrodes was used to simulate lighting, and after about a week of electrical discharges, a brown liquid resulted. After analysis by a very crude paper chromatography (by present standards), Ninhydrin spray (specific for amino acids) detected many spots corresponding to several known amino acids, notable glycine, alanine, a dipeptiede (glycylglycine), and several other organic compounds in various traces. I heard a talk by Dr. Urey whilst a graduate student at the University of Wyoming in 1970. This experiment founded a field known as COSMOCHEMISTRY. It was more than a good start, since subsequently Stanley Miller's original samples were found at UCSD by a graduate student and reanalyzed using HPLC (High Performance Liquid Chromatography) with amazing findings of 17 of the 20 naturally occurring amino acids found in almost all living organisms! Only the 3 sulfur bearing amino acids were absent, probably due to the absence of any Hydrogen Sulfide in the starting mixture.

Some recent studies at the Scripps Institute of Oceanography while investigating oceanic thermal vents have also found strong evidence of Methionine and Cystiene in isolated samples.

There is a lot of good science being done across the world, but not nearly enough to satisfy me--and probably the late professor Urey!

Background: Harold Clayton Urey received the 1933 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his discovery of Deuterium, was responsible for the purification and mass production of enough U-235 to destroy Nagasaki. After the war, he was a principal founder of the US Atomic Energy Commission.

Added as an edit I had the great honor to meet Dr. Urey and shake his hand at University of Wyoming.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2024-04-12 09:18:30)

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#45 2024-04-12 06:20:23

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,820

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Sources of energy in electrical and heat seems to have created most of the amino strands along with sources of other strands that were not earth created here that allowed the firsts cell to come together something we have known for century or so. That random chain of those were created by molecules missing an end termination chemical that along with spin of earth and magnetism created more parts to the cell's formation.

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