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TonyTMarsBeginner

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Registered: 2016-09-29

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Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

Limestone

“The key fact about limestone on Earth is that nearly all of it is made up of the shells of marine life, specifically single-celled plankton. Limestone forms as billions of generations of plankton live and die near the ocean surface where sunlight penetrates. As each old cell dies, its living matter rots away and its remaining little shell of calcium carbonate drifts down to the bottom. They mount up like snow, as millennia pass, and the older plankton snowfalls compress under the younger, eventually hardening to solid rock.”

Calcium Carbonate on Mars
“The discovery of calcium carbonate on Mars conjures up images of red, alien seas filled with life. Perhaps if we’re lucky some of them scuttled on tripod legs. I hope for H. G. Wells’ sake they did. But the reality is probably not so romantic. Limestones on Earth are mostly from plankton, but a few formed by direct chemical precipitation from water, without the involvement of life. Such chemical limestone deposits are usually associated with evaporite rocks, which form just like their name sounds; by water drying up. Inland seas and lakes sometimes dry away as a result of changing climate, and leave behind all their salts as layers of different minerals, including rock salt, gypsum, borax, and limestone. When harsh alkali winds blow across Earth deserts, the alkali comes from windblown evaporite dust and grit.”
“Carbonates found by Phoenix might come from either a big wet sea, or a little dying sea. A little dying sea is more likely, especially considering that Phoenix also found evidence of perchlorates in the sand. Perchlorate is a highly oxidized form of chlorine, and is the active ingredient in laundry bleach. Perchlorates contain chlorine, which is also a component of sea salt (sodium chloride). A drying sea would lay down layers of rock salt and carbonate, more or less adjacent physically. Exposed for ages at the Martian surface, chloride salts would naturally oxidize to perchlorate under the relentless, unfiltered glare of solar and cosmic radiation. Limestones laid down by plankton don’t usually contain any chloride salts.”

Concrete
“Concrete is a composite material which is made up of a filler and a binder. The binder (cement paste) "glues" the filler together to form a synthetic conglomerate. The constituents used for the binder are cement and water, while the filler can be fine or coarse aggregate.”
“Cement, as it is commonly known, is a mixture of compounds made by burning limestone and clay together at very high temperatures ranging from 1400 to 1600.”
“The production of portland cement begins with the quarrying of limestone, CaCO3. Huge crushers break the blasted limestone into small pieces. The crushed limestone is then mixed with clay (or shale), sand, and iron ore and ground together to form a homogeneous powder.”

Roman Concrete

“By analyzing the mineral components of the cement taken from the Pozzuoli Bay breakwater at the laboratory of U.C. Berkeley, as well as facilities in Saudi Arabia and Germany, the international team of researchers was able to discover the “secret” to Roman cement’s durability. They found that the Romans made concrete by mixing lime and volcanic rock to form a mortar. To build underwater structures, this mortar and volcanic tuff were packed into wooden forms. The seawater then triggered a chemical reaction, through which water molecules hydrated the lime and reacted with the ash to cement everything together. The resulting calcium-aluminum-silicate-hydrate (C-A-S-H) bond is exceptionally strong.”
“By comparison, Portland cement (the most common modern concrete blend) lacks the lime-volcanic ash combination, and doesn’t bind well compared with Roman concrete. Portland cement, in use for almost two centuries, tends to wear particularly quickly in seawater, with a service life of less than 50 years. In addition, the production of Portland cement produces a sizable amount of carbon dioxide, one of the most damaging of the so-called greenhouse gases. According to Paulo Monteiro, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at the University of California, Berkeley, and the lead researcher of the team analyzing the Roman concrete, manufacturing the 19 billion tons of Portland cement we use every year “accounts for 7 percent of the carbon dioxide that industry puts into the air.”
“In addition to being more durable than Portland cement, argue, Roman concrete also appears to be more sustainable to produce. To manufacture Portland cement, carbon is emitted by the burning fuel used to heat a mix of limestone and clays to 1,450 degrees Celsius (2,642 degrees Fahrenheit) as well as by the heated limestone (calcium carbonate) itself. To make their concrete, Romans used much less lime, and made it from limestone baked at 900 degrees Celsius (1,652 degrees Fahrenheit) or lower, a process that used up much less fuel.”

Roman Volcanoes and Ash

“Mount Etna is one of the most active volcanoes in the world and is in an almost constant state of activity. The fertile volcanic soils support extensive agriculture, with vineyards and orchards spread across the lower slopes of the mountain and the broad Plain of Catania to the south. Etna is an active basaltic volcano, the activity of which is dominated by effusive eruptions that represent a continuous threat to a large populated area.”

“Mt. Fuji and Mt. Etna, for example, are dominanted by basaltic lava flows, whereas Mt. Rainier is dominated by andesitic lava, Mt. St. Helens by andesitic-to-dacitic pyroclastic material, and Mt. Lassen by dacitic lava domes.”

Mars and Earth Volcanoes
“The most common form of volcanism on the Earth is basaltic. Basalts are extrusive igneous rocks derived from the partial melting of the upper mantle. They are rich in iron and magnesium (mafic) minerals and commonly dark gray in color. The principal type of volcanism on Mars is almost certainly basaltic too.[12] On Earth, basaltic magmas commonly erupt as highly fluid flows, which either emerge directly from vents or form by the coalescence of molten clots at the base of fire fountains (Hawaiian eruption). These styles are also common on Mars, but the lower gravity and atmospheric pressure on Mars allow nucleation of gas bubbles (see above) to occur more readily and at greater depths than on Earth. As a consequence, Martian basaltic volcanoes are also capable of erupting large quantities of ash in Plinian-style eruptions. In a Plinian eruption, hot ash is incorporated into the atmosphere, forming a huge convective column (cloud). If insufficient atmosphere is incorporated, the column may collapse to form pyroclastic flows.[13] Plinian eruptions are rare in basaltic volcanoes on Earth where such eruptions are most commonly associated with silica-rich andesitic or rhyolitic magmas (e.g., Mount St. Helens).”

“The largest and most conspicuous volcanoes on Mars occur in Tharsis and Elysium regions. These volcanoes are strikingly similar to shield volcanoes on Earth. Both have shallow-sloping flanks and summit calderas. The main difference between Martian shield volcanoes and those on Earth is in size: Martian shield volcanoes are truly colossal. For example, the tallest volcano on Mars, Olympus Mons, is 550 km across and 21 km high. It is nearly 100 times greater in volume than Mauna Loa in Hawaii, the largest shield volcano on Earth. Geologists think one of the reasons that volcanoes on Mars are able to grow so large is because Mars lacks plate tectonics. The Martian lithosphere does not slide over the upper mantle (asthenosphere) as on Earth, so lava from a stationary hot spot is able to accumulate at one location on the surface for a billion years or longer.”
“On October 17, 2012, the Curiosity rover on the planet Mars at "Rocknest" performed the first X-ray diffraction analysis of Martian soil. The results from the rover's CheMin analyzer revealed the presence of several minerals, including feldspar, pyroxenes and olivine, and suggested that the Martian soil in the sample was similar to the "weathered basaltic soils" of Hawaiian volcanoes.[17] In July 2015, the same rover identified tridymite in a rock sample from Gale Crater, leading scientists to believe that silicic volcanism might have played a much more prevalent role in the planet's volcanic history than previously thought."

I hope this hasn't already been discussed too often but I have a few questions and comments. I was reading some various posts by Louis, Void, KBD512, and others about walling off narrow canyons and using them for habitation and other purposes and I found these ideas really practical and ingenious. I think that some drawings and plans ought to be designed and discussed more. Anyway I started thinking about walls and supports and foundations, then started thinking about concrete (which I haven't checked out yet on the posts but imagine have been already discussed) and I have posted some of the info above, and where to make it. Would the narrow canyons by the Volcanoes in the above picture work for what you are talking about? And do you think that the type of calcium carbonate on Mars would work for cement if not would the volcanic ash from Tharsis work for making the cement? And as a side note would any of the volcanic soils be good for growing crops due to radiation?

Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,836

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

Excellent!

Tony, let me know if I am crowding you too much.  I am going to tack some things on to what you have started.  Very happy.

Lava Tube:
This is just incidental Tony, I know you are looking at other things, but still some concrete might come in handy for making this more habitable.
http://astrobob.areavoices.com/2014/07/ … d-on-mars/  Some people here don't like lava tubes, but if you had such a thing and attached it to "Canyons" with skylights, that might be pretty good I think.

Better people than me might be able to tell you if the natural Calcium Carbonate on Mars will work, but I have alternatives to offer, I think.

I am going to suggest an alternate biological, and then a possible electrical path.

Fixing Nitrogen, and making shells.  Just now I am thinking a body of salty water inside the lava tube, and that you could dump your Martian Calcium Carbonates into this water, in the event that it is not directly suitable for the concrete you suggest.

http://phys.org/news/2016-10-farming-ba … ceans.html

The ability to fix nitrogen has now been discovered in chemosynthetic symbionts of marine lucinid clams and nematode worms. The symbiotic clams and worms investigated in this study are found in coastal marine waters worldwide. In some regions, the clams are even considered a delicacy. "Chemosynthetic" means the bacteria have the special ability to do primary production in the complete absence of sunlight, using only the energy stored in chemical bonds. This symbiotic primary production is effective enough to provide a food source for both the bacteria and their animal hosts.

So, fixed Nitrogen, food, and shells.

Not necessarily the same, but similar, "Cold Seeps".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_seep

A mussel bed at the edge of the brine pool
During this initial stage, when methane is relatively abundant, dense mussel beds also form near the cold seep.[3] Mostly composed of species in the genus Bathymodiolus, these mussels do not directly consume food.[3] Instead, they are nourished by symbiotic bacteria that also produce energy from methane, similar to their relatives that form mats.[3] Chemosynthetic bivalves are prominent constituents of the fauna of cold seeps and are represented in that setting by five families: Solemyidae, Lucinidae, Vesicomyidae, Thyasiridae and Mytilidae.[5]
This microbial activity produces calcium carbonate, which is deposited on the seafloor and forms a layer of rock.[3] During a period lasting up to several decades, these rock formations attract siboglinid tubeworms, which settle and grow along with the mussels.

That's the end of the biological route, now the electrical route:
BIOROCK:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biorock

Biorock, also known as Seacrete or Seament, is a trademark name used by Biorock, Inc. to refer to the substance formed by electro-accumulation of minerals dissolved in seawater. Prof. Wolf Hilbertz developed the process and patented it in 1979.[1] The building process, popularly called accretion, is not to be confused with Biorock sewage treatment. The biorock building process grows cement-like engineering structures and marine ecosystems, often for mariculture of corals, oysters, clams, lobsters and fish in salt water. It works by passing a small electric current through electrodes in the water. The structure grows more or less without limit as long as current flows.

Applying a low voltage electric current (completely safe for swimmers and marine life) to a submerged conductive structure causes dissolved minerals in seawater, principally calcium, magnesium and bicarbonate to precipitate and adhere to that structure. The result is a composite of brucite hydromagnesite and limestone with mechanical strength similar to concrete. Derived from seawater, this material is similar to the composition of natural coral reefs and tropical sand beaches.
Biorock structures can be built in any size or shape depending only on the physical makeup of the sea bottom, wave, current energies and construction materials. They are well suited for remote, third world sites where exotic building materials, construction equipment and highly skilled labor are non-existent.
Constructing a new reef[edit]

A newly construct Biorock reef set up by Gili Eco Trust in Indonesia.
To build a biorock reef, a welded, electrically conductive frame, often made from construction grade rebar or wire mesh, is submerged and anchored to the sea bottom. A low voltage direct current is applied using an anode. This initiates an electrolytic reaction causing mineral crystals naturally found in seawater, mainly calcium carbonate and magnesium hydroxide, to grow on the structure.
Within days, the structure takes on a whitish hue as it becomes encrusted with precipitated minerals adding rigidity and strength. Electrical fields, plus the shade and protection offered by the metal/limestone frame, attract a wide range of colonizing marine life including fish, crabs, clams, octopus, lobster, and sea urchins.

So, Tony, you would have three possible options for your limestone, I think the native stuff, biologically generated shells, and electrically deposited.

And of course we might expect volcanic ash near a lava tube, if that is the method used (Lake in a lava tube).

And on top of it your Roman concrete might work in the water it seems.

By the way, your post jogged me to remember "Biorock" from a long time ago.

And of course I am thinking concrete in Polar Oceans/Seas.

And I wonder, if sandstone caves were dug deep enough if they could intercept the water table of Mars, and so then you could do some of these things.

Water and Roman Concrete, seem to be friends I think.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-24 17:56:33)

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Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,836

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

Oh, and here is another potential favorable factor.
Glaciers on Volcano's on Mars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaciers_on_Mars

Glaciers on volcanoes[edit]
Many supposed glaciers have been observed on some of large Martian volcanoes. Researchers have described glacial deposits on Hecates Tholus,[64] Arsia Mons,[65] [66] Pavonis Mons,[67] and Olympus Mons.[68]
Scientists see evidence that glaciers exist on many of the volcanoes in Tharsis, including Olympus Mons, Ascraeus Mons, and Pavonis Mons.[69][70] Ceraunius Tholus may have even had its glaciers melt to form some temporary lakes in the past.[71][72][73][74][75][76][77]

So, that is something that has been previously overlooked.
-Volcanic Ash
-Lava Tubes
-Glaciers???

Of course you might have to bring in your Calcium Carbonate.

-Geothermal Power???  (Giant Volcano's after all, possibly still active to a degree).

Last edited by Void (2016-10-24 18:00:42)

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TonyTMarsBeginner

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Registered: 2016-09-29

Posts: 36

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

Oh, and here is another potential favorable factor.
Glaciers on Volcano's on Mars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaciers_on_Mars

Glaciers on volcanoes[edit]
Many supposed glaciers have been observed on some of large Martian volcanoes. Researchers have described glacial deposits on Hecates Tholus,[64] Arsia Mons,[65] [66] Pavonis Mons,[67] and Olympus Mons.[68]
Scientists see evidence that glaciers exist on many of the volcanoes in Tharsis, including Olympus Mons, Ascraeus Mons, and Pavonis Mons.[69][70] Ceraunius Tholus may have even had its glaciers melt to form some temporary lakes in the past.[71][72][73][74][75][76][77]

So, that is something that has been previously overlooked.
-Volcanic Ash
-Lava Tubes
-Glaciers???

Of course you might have to bring in your Calcium Carbonate.

-Geothermal Power???  (Giant Volcano's after all, possibly still active to a degree).

"Volcanogenic massive sulfide ore deposits, also known as VMS ore deposits, are a type of metal sulfide ore deposit, mainly copper-zinc which are associated with and created by volcanic-associated hydrothermal events in submarine environments.
These deposits are also sometimes called volcanic-hosted massive sulfide (VHMS) deposits. The density generally is 4500 kg/m3. They are predominantly stratiform accumulations of sulfide minerals that precipitate from hydrothermal fluids on or below the seafloor in a wide range of ancient and modern geological settings. In modern oceans they are synonymous with sulfurous plumes called black smokers.
They occur within environments dominated by volcanic or volcanic derived (e.g., volcano-sedimentary) rocks, and the deposits are coeval and coincident with the formation of said volcanic rocks. As a class, they represent a significant source of the world's copper, zinc, lead, gold and silver ores, with cobalt, tin, barium, sulfur, selenium, manganese, cadmium, indium, bismuth, tellurium, gallium and germanium as co- or by-products."

Do you think that the Volcanoes of Tharsis and there relatively close proximity to the ancient sea could produce massive sulfide deposits, I know that it's a guess until the area is actually explored but I suppose that there is a possibility of many ores and in large quantities that would be useful for building, technology, and other applications. And they would be right in the same vicinity as all of the  other resources: narrow canyons, concrete, water, and all the others you've mentioned. Less oxygen and time expenditure.

"Iron ores[1] are rocks and minerals from which metallic iron can be economically extracted. The ores are usually rich in iron oxides and vary in color from dark grey, bright yellow, deep purple, to rusty red. The iron itself is usually found in the form of magnetite (Fe
3O
4, 72.4% Fe), hematite (Fe
2O
3, 69.9% Fe), goethite (FeO(OH), 62.9% Fe), limonite (FeO(OH).n(H2O)) or siderite (FeCO3, 48.2% Fe)."

"Ores containing very high quantities of hematite or magnetite (greater than ~60% iron) are known as "natural ore" or "direct shipping ore", meaning they can be fed directly into iron-making blast furnaces."

Hematite has already been found in two locations on Mars and I would guess that it will be found all over Mars just as it is on earth, it would be interesting if it was also found nearby the above mineral in association with a lot of iron for steel manufacturing.

Last edited by TonyTMarsBeginner (2016-10-25 08:11:23)

Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,836

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

Tony,

Nice, very nice stuff.

I only have up front experience with iron ore. Hematite, and Taconite.  I actually worked in processing facilities 30 + years ago.  I am not a geologist.  Feel like I could really step back and let experts talk about these aspects of iron ore and other ores.

I think we could have a very interesting further discussion about what these high altitude regions might provide, but this board is too rigid to be pleased for it.  But I encourage your efforts.  Nice work.

Void.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-25 12:41:20)

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louis

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Posts: 7,208

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

Interesting discussion. Locating reserves of calcium carbonate (or finding ways of making it) will be crucial to industrial development on Mars.

That said, I am not sure we need cement to make a canyon project work.

On earth we already use subterranean reservoirs to store gas under pressure.  Reading up on the subject, it appears these reservoirs need to be topped with impermeable cap rock.  Examples given of good impermeable cap rock are sandstone, unweathered clay and granite, all of which exist in good quantities on Mars I believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeabil … nduit_flow

Even with the great pressure differential on Mars, I think we can assume that we could, without the need to seal with cement,pressurise a canyon on Mars with the right rock and not suffer significant losses of air. Personally, from an aesthetic point of view, I think that will be much nicer for humans as well. It will be good for them to have that hand hold on real natural rock, and once we apply some (Mars-manufactured*) soil and so on crevices and rock ledges, we can then grow a range flowering plants, bushes, with trees being grown in the canyon bottom.

Sandstone sounds a bit counterintuitive but then that might confirm what I have always suspected: that with that sort of rock, the escape of gas itself drags tiny particles into escape vent channels which then become effectively blocked and impermeable.

* I've researched before how to manufacture soil - a very interesting subject in itself.  It's eminently doable - crushing rock and so on, introducing the right microbes, using human and food waste - though we may need to import some fertiliser to begin with.  Mention of microbes does however raise a risk factor.  Working in garden centres among so many plants does increase your risk of serious lung and other infections.  We would want to have a full health risk assessment for a canyon environment.  One example - although running water is attractive, we would probably wish to avoid spray effects - creating the possiblity of aerosol transmission of bugs.  Maybe your canyon "river" would, sadly, need to be chlorinated and any fish kept in isolated glass tanks.

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TonyTMarsBeginner

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Registered: 2016-09-29

Posts: 36

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

Interesting discussion. Locating reserves of calcium carbonate (or finding ways of making it) will be crucial to industrial development on Mars.

That said, I am not sure we need cement to make a canyon project work.

On earth we already use subterranean reservoirs to store gas under pressure.  Reading up on the subject, it appears these reservoirs need to be topped with impermeable cap rock.  Examples given of good impermeable cap rock are sandstone, unweathered clay and granite, all of which exist in good quantities on Mars I believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeabil … nduit_flow

Even with the great pressure differential on Mars, I think we can assume that we could, without the need to seal with cement,pressurise a canyon on Mars with the right rock and not suffer significant losses of air. Personally, from an aesthetic point of view, I think that will be much nicer for humans as well. It will be good for them to have that hand hold on real natural rock, and once we apply some (Mars-manufactured*) soil and so on crevices and rock ledges, we can then grow a range flowering plants, bushes, with trees being grown in the canyon bottom.

Sandstone sounds a bit counterintuitive but then that might confirm what I have always suspected: that with that sort of rock, the escape of gas itself drags tiny particles into escape vent channels which then become effectively blocked and impermeable.

* I've researched before how to manufacture soil - a very interesting subject in itself.  It's eminently doable - crushing rock and so on, introducing the right microbes, using human and food waste - though we may need to import some fertiliser to begin with.  Mention of microbes does however raise a risk factor.  Working in garden centres among so many plants does increase your risk of serious lung and other infections.  We would want to have a full health risk assessment for a canyon environment.  One example - although running water is attractive, we would probably wish to avoid spray effects - creating the possiblity of aerosol transmission of bugs.  Maybe your canyon "river" would, sadly, need to be chlorinated and any fish kept in isolated glass tanks.

This might have been discussed before but here is a man who hasn't watered his plant for 40 years! Would it be possible to make a bunch of these and hang them in the canyon at various places and have some greenery that doesn't have to be watered, leaving the water for other trees, plants, and aforementioned projects.

It might have been explained in other posts somewhere but what is the quickest way to make the soil you are talking of minus the radiation? And a side note have you heard of the red soil from South America that regenerates and grows and has 2-3 hundred percent crop increases? Maybe it could be replicated on Mars or transported there into the canyons, once established maybe portions could be transported other places?

Tom Kalbfus

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Posts: 4,401

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

I wonder what this subject has to do with terraforming? We don't need to terraform Mars to make cement. We don't need to make cement to terraform Mars either. If the Tharsis Volcanoes have the stuff needed to make cement, great! But I don't get why this thread comes under the heading of Terraformation. Just thought I'd mention this.

TonyTMarsBeginner

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Registered: 2016-09-29

Posts: 36

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

I wonder what this subject has to do with terraforming? We don't need to terraform Mars to make cement. We don't need to make cement to terraform Mars either. If the Tharsis Volcanoes have the stuff needed to make cement, great! But I don't get why this thread comes under the heading of Terraformation. Just thought I'd mention this.

“terraform: (especially in science fiction) transform (a planet) so as to resemble the earth, especially so that it can support human life.”

Radiation

“The depth of penetration for a given photon energy is dependent upon the material density (atomic
structure). The more subatomic particles in a material (higher Z number), the greater the likelihood
that interactions will occur and the radiation will lose its energy. Therefore, the denser a material is
the smaller the depth of radiation penetration will be. Materials such as depleted uranium, tungsten
and lead have high Z numbers, and are therefore very effective in shielding radiation. Concrete is
not as effective in shielding radiation but it is a very common building material and so it is commonly
used in the construction of radiation vaults.
Most designers and builders today are familiar with the advantages of using very high density
concretes for radiation shielding. Not so well known is the excellent economy which can result from
the use of normal site cast concretes with locally available aggregates when space and other factors
do not absolutely demand that the desired protection be achieved within minimum dimensional
limits. The effectiveness of any biological shielding material is related only to its mass and concrete
has an obvious advantage in this highly specialized field of construction because of its exceptionally
low cost per pound.”

Benefits of concrete
“Concrete has a number of performance characteristics that can improve the sustainability performance of a building or structure.”
 
Acoustics
“The issue of sound insulation and acoustic performance of homes has grown in importance, primarily due to the growing demand from government for increased density of urban dwellings. The number of complaints about noise has risen due both to this closer proximity and the new demands placed on housing (e.g. entertainment systems). For this reason, the UK Building Regulations Part E now requires improved sound insulation.”
Flooding
“New building works within areas of flood risk are only permitted in exceptional cases where the risks are managed and adequate flood defense measures and/or flood resistant construction techniques are adopted. The type of floor construction is an important consideration.”
Fire
“Concrete does not burn: it cannot be 'set on fire' like other materials in a building and it does not emit any toxic fumes when affected by fire. It will also not produce smoke or drip molten particles. For these reasons, in the majority of applications, concrete can be described as virtually 'fireproof'. Concrete's inbuilt fire resistance maintains airtight construction that stops smoke spreading, and the ability to maintain the building's strength during a fire.”
Thermal mass and operational energy efficiency
“Thermal mass basically describes the ability of construction materials to absorb, store and release heat; a useful property which helps regulate the temperature in buildings. Heavyweight materials such as concrete provide a high level of thermal mass, and this is often measured in terms of something called 'admittance' which has units of W/m2 K.”
Low carbon construction
“Sustainability is more than simply about carbon, and this is recognised in codes and assessment tools. However CO2 emissions, associated with materials, manufacture, construction, operation and end of use, is an important parameter and the cement and concrete industry is investing hugely in developing and enabling construction solutions that reduce whole life CO2 emissions as well as embodied CO2.”
Durability and long-life
“The full structural capacity of a masonry or concrete wall, with its considerable reserve of strength and ability to accommodate future changes, far exceeds design requirements. It is this inherent robustness that has enabled traditionally built houses to cater for increased loads emanating from alterations and adaptation. Their strength also facilitates the introduction of concrete upper floors which provide clear spans between external walls and will support internal masonry walls. All internal walls below become non-load bearing, producing a design where the layout can be altered to cater for future changes in living requirements, so satisfying the government's requirement for 'lifetime homes'.”

Concrete would speed the time of construction of a durable and safe habitat, working in irradiated environments is bad, working in a concrete structure without the hindrance of a space suit or radiation exposure would help in terraforming efforts and is good. Terraforming and concrete go together like cookies and milk.

Tom Kalbfus

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Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

Great but perhaps this should go under Life Support Systems. Building concrete structures on Mars isn't terraforming.

Void

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Posts: 7,836

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

It could be moved under life support, but for my purposes it is suitable for terraforming.
I have somewhat a looser definition of that.

Actually terraforming really should start locally, and then expand to be global in my opinion.  Waiting around for centuries for a whole planet to become like terra, is a silly process as far as I am concerned as it is rather unlikely that many humans will sign on to bake bread that they cannot ever eat.

I am currently interested in 3 "Local" terraforming notions, where the Roman Cement could matter.

The three are Sandstone, Polar ice Caps, and now Volcanic locations.  I see advantages in each, and see no reason to not start terraforming these "Sub-realms" before tacking the whole planet.

Any potential building material is of importance in the hope of building such "terrariums".

Each of the three have their own potential values.

Mastering these three environments would give humans a lot of leverage to try to master the whole planet.

But, technically, maybe yes the moderators could move this.  I think it is up to them.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-26 11:57:27)

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Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,836

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

Oh I have once in a while wondered what a human settlement could be like on the top of one of the large volcano's.

http://phys.org/news/2014-06-ice-forge- … -mars.html
This map is at least interesting (To Me).  It gives a notion of the size of these things.

Quote from the article:

Mars.

Arsia Monsis one of the largest mountains in the solar system. Wispy water-ice clouds gather near its peak during the Martian afternoon. While it is only the third tallest volcano on Mars, Arsia Mons is 300 km (186 miles) wide and twice as tall as Mount Everest. If Mount Everest were to suddenly erupt today, some of the vast glaciers on its surface would melt producing floods, lakes and debris plains. We now have reason to believe this is exactly what happened on Mars when Arsia Mons was active 200 million years ago.

Quote from the article:

"Remnant craters and ridges strongly suggest that some of the glacial ice remains buried below rock and soil debris," said Head. "That's interesting from a scientific point of view because it likely preserves in tiny bubbles a record of the atmosphere of Mars hundreds of millions of years ago. An existing ice deposit might also be an exploitable water source for future human exploration."

So there are some possible plus factors:
1) Parts of it might be in the cloud belt at times.  I wonder about the night.  Night frosts?  Probably not a lot of water, but still worth considering.
2) Yes maybe buried ice, but I bet it is hard to get to.
3) Maybe some exclusion from dust storm activity.
4) Just possibly geothermal.
5) As Tony mentioned perhaps some very good ore deposits?  I don't actually know that myself, but he seemed to have some very interesting material on the subject.
6) If you had the means for it launching to orbit might be better from those locations.

On the down side:
1) You would need some special methods to access it from orbit.  It would likely be dangerous.
2) Radiation will be worse.  But if you have a lava tube city, maybe that's not as big a concern.

....

As I have said before, I have now three locations where I would like to consider placing the human part of a terraforming effort of Mars.  There are few methods of terraforming of any credible character that will not require significant human labor. 

So here I will list them.
1) Volcano's
2) Polar Ice Caps
3) Sandstone

1) Volcano's are becoming interesting, but I am not sure that previous methods considered for Mars will work for them.  This habitat needs some more thinking.
2) Polar ice caps have the water, but it will be too challenging I think at first.  I think you know that I would intend to melt them into Lakes and Seas.
3) Sandstone is the first one I would try.  I think water for it could come from several sources, and I will list them.
a) Baked regolith, in my case I prefer sand dunes as I expect the extraction can be done with the least labor, and in time the extraction could be virtually fully automated, as in wheeled robots.
b) Buried ice.  There is some thinking that when the Martian atmosphere collapsed, a very long time ago, it left behind massive fossil ice reserves buried under regolith.  For instance there is some belief that the Mariner Rift Valley might contain massive amounts.  And of course RobertDyck indicates a frozen sea, which I neither confirm or deny belief in.  Buried ice may be remote from Sandstone deposits, though, so not sure buried ice will be a starter method.
c) Aquifers, probably very salty.  I don't think that this would be a starter method, but later it would be a fantastic win, to drill a well into an aquifer, from a sandstone cave (Artificial).

So, in fact I am not turning against the volcanic habitation, but indicate that it would likely happen after the sandstone habitations.  And with both mastered, I would think humans would be ready to tackle the polar lakes and seas notion.

And don't worry, I am just entertaining myself, and I intend to recover a machine notion which I offered to someone who was underwhelmed by it.  I will now describe the machine and nothing else.

The machine itself will not be a cart, but, yes it would be sensible to move the machine to convenience the process, using a wheeled device.

The machine would have a cone shaped hopper like the top part of an hourglass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hourglass

It is my intention that the "Sand" of the sand dunes of Mars will be conducted through it by gravity flow in a metered fashion over time periods.  This will be to facilitate the processing of the sands.

The sand outlet would have some kind of a process control gate, perhaps even a pneumatic sphincter.

The lower part of the hour glass will not exist, but instead, various methods to process the sand materials to the benefit of humans.

The streams of sand are a fluid action, and so can be acted on by solar energy, a flame of CO and O2, screens, magnetism, electrostatic force, etc.

Of course the hopper has to be filled with sand.  This could be as simple as a human with a hand shovel, or obviously a mechanized robotic process.

Extraction of moisture is one objective hope for achieving.  Under the stream of sand we could have a container which would be filled with sand and then exposed to solar concentrated light, or a flame of CO and O2.  A suction would conduct the vapors into a condenser, which could condense both by the typical cold nature of Mars, and by likely using a bit of compression.

Once the moisture was taken out of the sand, the container could be dumped out and repeatedly refilled, or;
Since it is already hot, it could be heated further to melt or sinter into an object.

Because of recent history I am afraid to involve anyone else with this, but I can say that a member whos on-line name starts with "L", seems to like the idea of making things out of basalt.  I do also.

Here is a very interesting article on making things from sand with a 3D printer.  I believe it has been seen before.
http://newatlas.com/solar-sinter-3d-printer/19046/
A created "Bowl" is shown, which could be mocked, but this is after all an infant process.

Then back to the sand stream, I think that various forces such as magnetism, screens, and electrostatic force could be used to get a beneficiated magnetic material from this sand dune "Ore".  I believe the concentrate would have an elevated iron and titanium content.  As for the tailings, they might have more chromium, but I don't know the exact true nature of the "Sand" yet, so maybe, maybe not.  Most likely however the tailings you eliminated would be of a non-magnetic nature, and likely more towards silica?

Anyway I hate it when an infant idea just born gets thrown out the window without reasonable consideration, or in some cases I think I witness it's intentional smothering.  And I don't know why that happens.

1) Sandstone & Sand dunes.
2) Volcano's
3) Polar ice deposits into lakes and seas
4) Terraform Mars more completely.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-30 09:00:56)

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End

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

I thought I might bump this topic since it covers Biosphere and the idea of corals, oysters, clams, lobsters.

Sustainable Batteries Made From Lobster and Crab Shells
https://science-news.co/sustainable-bat … ab-shells/

the news could also go in one of those EV threads or Troglobite topics

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-12 08:30:38)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,455

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

This topic is one of two that contains the word "volcano" .... the article at the post below is about a kind of plate tectonics on Mars, but it is mostly about how volcanoes on Mars may have delivered silica to the surface ...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … c223&ei=43

Mars had its own version of plate tectonics
Story by Andy Tomaswick • 17h • 2 min read

Topographic data are draped over infrared image data showing complex tectonic structures and volcanic deposits in the Eridania region of Mars. Warm colors are higher elevation. Credit: NASA/Mars Odyssey/HRSC

Topographic data are draped over infrared image data showing complex tectonic structures and volcanic deposits in the Eridania region of Mars. Warm colors are higher elevation. Credit: NASA/Mars Odyssey/HRSC

© Provided by Phys.org
Plate tectonics is not something most people would associate with Mars. In fact, the planet's dead core is one of the primary reasons for its famous lack of a magnetic field. And since active planetary cores are one of the primary driving factors of plate tectonics, it seems obvious why that general conception holds.

However, Mars has some features that we think of as corresponding with plate tectonics—volcanoes. A new paper from researchers at the University of Hong Kong (HKU) looks at how different types of plate tectonics could have formed different types of volcanoes on the surface of Mars.

Typically, when you think of volcanoes on Mars, you think of massive shield volcanoes like Olympus Mons, similar to those seen in some locations on Earth, such as Hawai'i. These form when repeated eruptions deposit layers of lava for millions of years. Those eruptions aren't impacted by how any underlying plates move underneath them. But they do create a different underlying landscape than elsewhere on the planet.

One of the main differences is that the volcanoes have a high silica concentration. Most of the rest of the red planet has relatively low silica concentration and consists primarily of basalt. However, they have distinctly more elevated levels of silica, and Dr. Joseph Michalski and his colleagues at HKU think they know why.
Back in the Archean age, 3 billion years ago, on Earth, geologists have theorized that a type of plate tectonics known as "vertical tectonics" forced the planet's crust to collapse into the planet's mantle. There, it was reformed, injected with a high concentration of silica, and then spewed back onto the surface due to erupting volcanoes.

That would conveniently explain why the silica levels of volcanoes on Mars are higher than on the rest of the planet. To back up their findings, the paper describes signs of numerous other volcano types, such as stratovolcanoes and lava domes, that also contain high silica concentrations and could result from this type of theorized tectonics.

On Earth, other active geological processes have worn down the rock that could have been formed by these processes billions of years ago. But there isn't nearly as much geological activity on Mars, so it provides a clearer picture of the resulting geology from these processes.

This body of work contributes to our overall understanding of the geology of Mars, and the discovery of so many additional volcanoes is sure to interest areologists for years to come. But for now, this new theory of Mars' geological history is another step in our understanding of the red planet.

More information: Joseph R. Michalski et al, Diverse volcanism and crustal recycling on early Mars, Nature Astronomy (2024). DOI: 10.1038/s41550-023-02191-7

Provided by Universe Today

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Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,799

Re: Tharsis Volcanoes and Cement

The compressive strength of concrete increases substantially as the hydrated lime within the cement binder undergoes carbonation.
https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1944/11/11/2167

This is usually a slow process, which is cut off by the dehydration of the surface of the concrete.  The rate of diffusion of CO2 into the concrete, is a function of its partial pressure within the atmosphere.  On Earth, this is about 42Pa and slowly rising.  We could produce extremely strong precast concrete members by subjecting them to high pressure CO2.  On Earth, this is difficult because CO2 is relatively expensive to procure as a pure, high-pressure gas.  But on Mars, we are surrounded by an atmosphere of almost pure CO2.  At Martian temperatures, this can be compressed down to liquid relatively easily.  It would be relatively straightforward to soak concrete members in liquid or supercritical CO2.  This would allow carbonation to take place very rapidly, which would substantially increase the strength of exposed members.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-03-03 17:16:06)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."