Space Radiation + counter measures

SpaceNut · 2022-02-19 16:52:36

I gave my post without the reading of the supplied document in theory and it was just what we needed to build....that said the permanent magnet rings with a wrapped coil makes the field stronger when we need it most.

By placing the ring a distance from the hull also makes the strongest field as the stainless will be reflecting it back towards the conductor ring that holds the magnets.

That allows for saving of energy if we are not in need of it field being stronger all of the time. Add to this rf transmitters around at the extended distance from the hull and we have an even stronger field for the plasma control. Since that is exactly what the satellite transmitter are doing orbiting earth.

The big problem with this stuff being employed is that we need a better structure for the adapt materials to be placed for use when breaking into orbit.

repost

The magnetic field is something which was in the cev orion information and satelite low frequency have be shown to be moving the radiation belts higher around earth.

Found it
If we do not have 20 cm of water content for radiation there may be the chance for this
post reference page which GW does quote...

Radiation amount type risk mitigation

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-20 07:29:11

For SpaceNut re Radiation Protection system....

A challenge for the system you design will be the constant arrival of nuclei of iron, traveling at great speed ...

I asked Google for an estimate of the speed at which these annoying pests are traveling ...

Key Concepts and Summary. Cosmic rays are particles that travel through interstellar space at a typical speed of 90% of the speed of light.
Cosmic Rays | Astronomy - Lumen Learning
courses.lumenlearning.com › astronomy › chapter › cosmic-rays
About Featured Snippets

An aspirational goal of your design would be to deflect those. If you can deflect those, then anything the Sun throws at Large Ship will be handled as well.

I remain concerned about the field reaching inside the habitat ring. Is there a way to deal with that?

In a recent post (if memory serves) RobertDyck expressed a passing thought that stainless steel for the hull might prevent magnetic flux from entering the interior of the Large Ship. Is there anything to this idea? Just because a material is not magnetic, we cannot assume it prevents magnetic flux from passing through.

When you develop an answer, in an ideal world, it would be saved in a permanent storage location where it could be found easily by anyone who needs it.

The forum does NOT currently have such a permanent storage space.

GW Johnson has suggested an "Engineering Notebook", and I have suggested using the NewMars Dropbox, but I have no idea how to go about setting that up.

Do you have ** any ** idea how we might be able to overcome the water-under-the-bridge nature of the forum archive?

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-20 08:57:43

Stainless is non magnetic for most types of which there are many grades of it. We are using the non magnetic grade materials for construction and the flux waves will not penetrate it.

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-20 10:46:11

For SpaceNut re #63

Thanks for providing a hypothesis that can be tested by anyone!

It will be good for NewMars forum to be able to provide opportunities for those who have not yet studied physics to be able to do simple experiments to confirm your hypothesis.

As I understand your hypothesis: A magnet on one side of a stainless steel plate will not be felt on the other side.

This should be easy to test with a permanent magnet and a sheet of stainless steel.

Please create a learning experience for a middle school student, to allow them to verify for themselves the claim that you have made, which I have recast as a hypothesis to be tested.

If your hypothesis is correct, ** and ** if the habitat wall is made of stainless steel with the desired properties, then the powerful magnetic field your radiation protection system will generate will not reach inside the habitat.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-20 13:57:06

Here is the frame example of the magnets within a tube structure that is larger than the ships hull with a distance from it to allow for time for it to react.
bd52d83c-9557-4187-8b19-81f42aafdf5c.e8715b76608520161d88c5e7ee4a9796.jpeg?odnBg=ffffff&odnHeight=612&odnWidth=612

The tube gets a coil wrapped around the tube and we are then pulsing each at a different frequency and strength. and timing. The fact that the ship is rotating helps the coverage of the fields sweeping effect.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-22 20:17:05

The reflection is achieved by the use of aluminum for inner walls with in the hull as part of cabin wall as I was reminded of with RobertDyck's post
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 00#p172600
Its also a mass saver in materials that we know we do need in addition to the water wall bags.

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-23 13:09:01

For SpaceNut re hypothesis that aluminum might prevent magnetic field lines from reaching into the habitat were people reside...

This is another hypothesis that should work well if you were designing a set of experiments for middle schoolers to learn about physics.

The hypothesis is that a magnet would NOT be able to reach through a piece of aluminum, because the aluminum is itself non-magnetic.

To the (probable) surprise of your young experimenter, the hypothesis would be proven to be false.

The experiment I performed was done with aluminum foil from Reynolds Wrap. That company would have had no incentive to adulterate their product with atoms of any other kind. I think it is safe to assume this material consists of aluminum atoms arranged in a solid matrix with no contamination with other atoms.

The presence of the aluminum foil made no difference whatsoever to the powerful permanent magnets used for the test.

A double thickness of aluminum made no difference.

I conclude that the hypothesis would be proven false, and the students would come away from the experiment a tiny bit wiser, but hungry for your next lesson.

No doubt somewhere along the line you will discover (or remember) a material that can indeed prevent magnetic flux from the magnetic radiation shield from entering the habitat quarters, but as of now we do not appear to have it.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-23 20:40:33

You are living and breathing with in a field as produced by the earth every day but its an active moving plasma generating in the orbit where particles are collecting for the van allen belts.

The magnetic ring that is being created around the ship is made to move its field by applying pulsing power in coils that are wrapped around the permanent magnets loops which are held about 10 meters away from the hull. The field that reaches the hull is very weak at that point and will reflect away and reconnect to the other field lines as it does with earth as it moves away from its source.

There is no magnets on the inside of the hull to attract the field which we are creating on the outside of the ship. Since we are making a grid of fields that interlace we are making a magnetic wall at that distance from the hull. The rotation of the ship aids in the field not having any gaps.

The magnetic material inside the loops act as a transformer core to couple the coils energy field all the way around the loops.

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-23 21:18:25

For SpaceNut re #58

Electronics inside the habitat space would be vulnerable to magnetic fields, even if the people are not affected.

It seems to me a bit optimistic to think that a magnetic field strong enough to deflect iron nuclei traveling at 70% of the speed of light.

I also question the idea of pulsing the magnetic field. The Earth's magnetic field does NOT pulse.

Let's not give up so easily ... We have tested two hypotheses that turned out not to reflect reality. There are many more materials to test. In addition, it is possible that Google can find reports of research that deals with this issue.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-23 21:40:50

The is a hum to the field as well as a hiss so it is changing at several frequencies.
The field we can create will not be any where near as strong as earths so its not going to be any problem.

Scientists recorded the sound of Earth's magnetic field during a solar storm for the first time — and it sounds like eerie chirps 5dd44f63fd9db21bcc5d9f28?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ5CTUoJqnA
The sound of Earth’s magnetic field by BepiColombo

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-23 23:48:10

For SpaceNut re 60

The magnetic field of the Earth may be weak, but it is literally the size of a planet.

The magnetic field to protect a space craft must be far stronger because is is so much smaller.

The interior of the space craft habitat must be protected from magnetic field fluctuations, regardless of their source.

This topic has the potential to find solutions that will protect people, but that won't happen if we give up before we even start working the problem.

it seems to me that work being done today (as we speak) to corral ionized particles in fusion reactor test machines may yield information or guidance for fields able to protect people inside space vehicles.

A direction to look might be to search for published research on how to deflect a high energy charged particle so it goes in a particular direction. Examples of ** that ** might be found in the field of high energy physics where particle accelerators create test objects.

I expect you'll discover that deflecting an iron nucleus traveling at 70% light speed is going to require a very strong field, or a very large field such as that produced by a planet.

Update the next day: This is an important topic and it will take multiple hours and some dedication to get it right.

We (contributors) have made some progress, but we are not where we need to be.

We need a system that works, and is feasible.

A working system will deflect Cosmic Radiation (ie, iron nuclei traveling at 70% light speed), as well as all lesser ionized radiation.

A working system will NOT penetrate the living quarters of the Large Ship.

A working system can be powered by local supply, since solar power cannot be relied upon by a moving space vessel.

Solar power can be used when it is available, if the vessel is equipped with solar panels.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-25 10:36:28

For SpaceNut ...

here is a quote from a recent post by Quaoar...

He seems to be addressing the challenges that you are facing, as you attempt to imagine dynamic radiation protection for Large Ship.

Quaoar speaks of a torus, which (of course) Large Ship is NOT, but perhaps his ideas can be adapted to the Large Shipl

To deflect the 2 GeV protons - the vast majority of GCR - you need a 20 Tesla field: if your habitat is a torus, you have to put the main coil along the outer circumference, plus a secondary coil along the inner one to cancel the field in the living quarters. With the new high temperature superconductors the mass penalty of the coils is not excessive on a 5000 ton spaceship and you can also enhance the effect inflating the field with small amount of plasma puffs.
You can build a toroidal habitat connected to the axis by four radii. Each radius has a cargo container mounted on a truck and an electric motor that move the container outside and inside to keep the center of mass on the axis, using your cargo as a ballast without extra mass penalty.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-25 20:42:20

The electrostatic field is caused by the protons bouncing around caught in the field as it spins its that heat which will create a level of plasma to occur and make another radiation guard.

The greater the mass is in the large ship design in the center the less effect is felt by things on the ring that circles it.

The central hub is quite heavy and is part of that 5,000 mT we are sending to mars.

torus, you have to put the main coil along the outer circumference, plus a secondary coil along the inner one to cancel the field in the living quarters

completely describes the field I created....

we are rotating the field so they have the effect on the incoming

SpaceNut · 2022-02-26 12:11:11

here is the real references for a field of the 20 Tesla value and its a containment field not an outward directing. Which means they have reflecting materials.

Researchers Create the Most Powerful Magnet Ever Made on Earth: 20 Teslas

MIT ramps 10-ton magnet up to 20 tesla in proof of concept for commercial fusion making a ring of 17 identical magnets and surrounding structures—to contain a plasma

“To put it into context, the scale and performance of this magnet is similar to a non-superconducting magnet that was used in MIT experiments five years ago. The difference in terms of energy consumption is rather stunning: That magnet, because it was a normal copper conducting magnet, consumed approximately 200 million watts of energy. To produce the confining magnetic field, this magnet was around 30 watts.” That decrease—a factor of around 10 million—"makes it obvious why going to a high-field superconducting device or magnet now brings into bear net energy from fusion,” Whyte said.
Building something new: The magnet contains about 270 kilometers of superconducting tape wrapped in a spiraling pattern in 16 separate layers that are stacked together and sealed within a metal case, as shown in this animation. The 16 layers, which Mumgaard calls pancakes, are manufactured separately, in an assembly line fashion. The finished magnet weighs about 10 tons and is 10 feet tall and about half as wide.

Time and temp: The HTS magnet successfully tested at MIT is made from a material called REBCO, which stands for three constituent materials: rare earth, barium, and copper oxide. Its optimal operating temperature is a frigid 20 K, but relative to low-temperature superconductors, which require temperatures of a few degrees above absolute zero, HTS magnets require significantly less energy for cryogenic control.

So no value for the absolute cooling system...

Just how strong is a 20 T magnet? By contrast, a typical junkyard electromagnet that can lift cars and trucks is about 1 T, and a refrigerator magnet is about 5 mT. According to CFS, a 15 T magnetic field would be powerful enough to lift 31 Eiffel Towers, and a 19 T magnetic field would be powerful enough to lift 403 Boeing 747s.

so we can move it but at what distance?

video

The magnet is composed of 16 plates stacked together, each one of which by itself would be the most powerful high-temperature superconducting magnet in the world.

Fusion startup builds 10-foot-high, 20-tesla superconducting magnet

The magnet that was tested last week was about three meters tall and half that wide. It's powered by coils of a high-temperature superconducting material called ReBCO and operates at about 20 Kelvin. (In superconductivity, 20 K counts as high-temperature, as more typical superconducting materials need to be at less than 5 K.)
There are about 270 kilometers of superconducting material in the magnet, but the material is distributed among all these individual pancakes.

Energy requirements for (10 MW) was the Tokamak Fusion Test Reactor (TFTR) device at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, Joint European Torus (JET) in the UK, which has a radius of about 3 meters (m) and has made 16 MW of fusion power all of which were short duration that gave no net or less than supplied input value.

Needs quite a large area to house it and looks to be well over 50 MW input to force it to be capable of sustaining a net output that is positive for use.

Fabricated from 36 km of superconducting cable, this 1,000-ton magnet will drive 15 million amperes of current through the plasma, far more than anything that has been possible before.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-26 15:46:40

RobertDyck wrote:

I posted this a few times, both in "Space radiation + counter measures" and "Large scale colonization ship". This is a paper from the University of Washington (the state). It shows how a mini-magnetosphere can be used for radiation protection. The magnetic bubble extends a few thousand km radius, but requires a total of 100 kW of electric power. One paper talked about a 50 kW version, but I believe the Large Ship will require the full-size magnetic bubble.
PDF file from University of Washington: Radiation shielding produced by mini-magnetospheres
The deployment of a mini-magnetosphere (or magnetic bubble) around a spacecraft has recently been proposed as a means to couple energy from the solar wind to provide in-space propulsion. In so doing mini-magnetospheric plasma propulsion (M2P2) would have both high specific propulsion and high thrust while requiring only modest (kW/unit) power levels to sustain the mini-magnetosphere. In order to obtained sufficient thrust for a manned mission, the mini-magnetosphere is anticipated to extend out to several 100 km to a few thousand km in radius, possibly supported by several units using a total of ~ 100 kW. At this size, the mini-magnetosphere has the potential for not only deflecting solar wind particles, but also the energetic particles that comprise galactic cosmic rays (GCRs) and solar energetic particle (SEP) events. These energetic particles provide a significant radiation hazard for any extended manned mission in space. This paper presents initial design characteristics for using an M2P2 system as a radiation shield. Each unit consists of a magnet with a radius of 10 – 20 cm, with strength of a few kilogauss to possibly a Tesla. Embedded in each magnet is a plasma source that is used to expand the magnetic field. It is shown that the magnetic field fall off approaches 1/r as the plasma energy density approaches the magnetic energy density. The effectiveness in shielding as determined by the integral of B×dr can be more than an order of magnitude larger than the magnet by itself. Pulsed operation of the system is used to prevent modification of spacecraft trajectory and prevent build up of radiation belts within the mini-magnetosphere.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-26 16:09:22

Earth cruises through the black sea of space at about 67,000 mph (108,000 km/h), the planet's magnetic field pushes aside solar wind — the constant stream of plasma particles ejected by the sun — the same way the bow of a speeding motorboat pushes aside water.
Earth is constantly being bombarded by a hot, soupy plasma of protons, electrons and ions loosed by the sun in the form of solar wind. These winds blow all day and in all directions, blasting out of our nearest star at speeds of up to 500 miles per second (800 kilometers per second) and temperatures of up to 2.9 million degrees Fahrenheit (1.6 million degrees Celsius), according to NASA.

The source of the plasma is from the solar wind particles being buffeted in the arc of the field. That arc is at distance of intercept of the sun to the fields creation at the field starts to be greater than the solar wind speed strength. The solar wind much like solar power fades per meter as we travel away from the sun. So a field at earth will need less power to achieve the same performance as it did when it was getting started.

https://www.nap.edu/read/11188/chapter/5
EARTH’S DYNAMIC MAGNETIC SHIELD
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2004. Understanding the Sun and Solar System Plasmas:

The magnetosphere typically extends to around 10 times the radius of Earth in the sunward or “upstream” direction, and hundreds of Earth radii in the direction away from the Sun, or “downstream.” (1 Earth radius = 6,378 kilometers.)

So for the large ship we need a field that will extend outward to 10 x 39 m = 400 meters.
That is due to the low angle of energy coming towards the small ships radius.

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/17/9232.abstract
Electron temperature of the solar wind
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … GM125p0073
Solar Wind and Interplanetary Magnetic Field: A Tutorial

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 … 00020/full
Plasma and Magnetic-Field Structure of the Solar Wind at Inertial-Range Scale Sizes Discerned From Statistical Examinations of the Time-Series Measurements

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-27 09:01:28

For SpaceNut re #66 ... Bravo! for this significant contribution to the topic!

The Solar Wind problem is significant, and both you and RobertDyck appear to be making progress in addressing it.

However, I remain concerned that we (all contributors) have not yet shown a way to successfully deflect Cosmic radiation (ie, iron nuclei traveling at 70% C).

RobertDyck has twice shown a study that ** may ** address the issue, but I have not had time to study it, so I don't know if there is anything there, or if it is just a hypothetical projection of what might be possible.

I recognize that by dealing with Solar radiation, you and RobertDyck are dealing with 80% of the problem. That is certainly (obviously) important work, and I'm hoping your development of plans for coils to encircle the habitat will proceed smoothly. Ideally, you would win support by a University level team able and willing to perform high level computer analysis of the validity of your design. There is a possibility that top level computer animation (flow software) can provide an accurate picture of interactions of ions with your proposed magnetic field, but the only ** real ** test is in orbit.

I'd like to toss out a benefit of your design as you go forward ... a wrapping of the pressure hull by layers of conductor would (should) provide additional strength for the hull itself, which (I expect) would be welded together. The coils of wire your protection system requires would add resilience to this critical component of the life support system.

Please find a way to deliver drawings you create yourself to this topic.

Drawings made by others are helpful, but they do not show the specific features of Large Ship.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-27 09:19:00

This is what happens to iron when it meets a field

51P57azGAnL._SY445_SX342_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg

iron is magnetic and is swiped by the fields rotation at distance from the ship by what I have designed with the 2 permanent and 2 much larger fields that are created by the coils that wrap them.

Its the rotational centripetal force that sweeps the iron away.

The main issue for electrical fields is the power requirement and if we can make a standard superconductor coil for the application then the power for those coils in the shadow will not need the cooling that those in the sun will. This is a trade off for field generation. Can we couple a cooling loop as well from the cold side to the warm and isolate that direct heating that makes life better for the fields creation.

edit

Thinking about the central hub protection and need for additional shielding. I am thinking that the permanent magnet on the top in concentric circles will provide a means to couple the more intense electrical shield across it. The sides of the cylinder that makes up the stem of it I would align up and down the body more straight lines of the same Magnets as that will focus the field as to having poles and that will allow for the over all fields to be cross connecting at distance from the hull of the ring.

The purpose of a multi stage system is a part of the design that while in the megosphere of the planet we do not require the same field size and strength as we would need in open space.

SpaceNut · 2022-04-09 15:53:43

RobertDyck wrote:

we aren't at a point where we can start building the Large Ship right now. We on this forum are ambitious and have skills, but how much money?
mini-magnetosphere radiation shield - University of Washington has done a lot of work on this, but we need one that works, and the magnetic field must be compatible with our ship.

ya i agree on lack of money and there is only one place that it can be tested if you know your energy budget

tahanson43206 · 2022-06-24 14:07:33

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/how- … 18131.html

Understandably, this reporter made mistakes in trying to translate the scientific data provided.
However, it seems to me that (most) of the "news" got through to reach the reader.

So, rather than rely on heavy and complicated mechanizations to process the waste materials that astronauts emit during a mission, this system utilizes osmosis bags that mimic nature’s own passive means of purifying water. In addition to treating gray and black water, these bags could also be adapted to scrub CO2 from the air, grow algae for food and fuel, and can be lined against the inner hull of a spacecraft to provide superior passive shielding against high energy particles.
“Water is better than metals for [radiation] protection,” Marco Durante of the Technical University of Darmstadt in Germany, told New Scientist in 2013. This is because the three-atom nucleus of a water molecule contains more mass than a metal atom and therefore is more effective at blocking GCR and other high energy rays, he continued.
The crew aboard the proposed Inspiration Mars mission, which would have slingshot a pair of private astronauts around Mars in a spectacular flyby while the two planets were at their orbital closest in 2018. You haven’t heard anything about that because the nonprofit behind it quietly went under in 2015. But had they somehow pulled off that feat, the plan was to have the astronauts poop into bags, sophon out the liquid for reuse and then pile the vacuum-sealed shitbricks against the walls of the spacecraft — alongside their boxes of food — to act as radiation insulation.
“It’s a little queasy sounding, but there’s no place for that material to go, and it makes great radiation shielding,” Taber MacCallum, a member of the nonprofit funded by Dennis Tito, told New Scientist. “Food is going to be stored all around the walls of the spacecraft, because food is good radiation shielding.” It’s just a quick jaunt to the next planet over, who needs plumbing and sustenance?

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-06-24 16:52:44

That also requires a properly planned out ship design to while spinning to have the waste be where it's needed to block the radiation. Others suggested that only the sun facing sides of a ship need this but truly it's got to be 360 spherical in nature with that side having more if that is possible.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-13 03:57:53

Solar Orbiter was hit by a Coronal Mass Ejection as it was About to Make a Flyby of Venus
https://www.universetoday.com/157574/so … -of-venus/

SpaceNut · 2022-09-13 21:16:20

That is one of the fears for going without any or enough shielding to protect a crew.

Hopefully the craft was hardened enough to take the hit and keep working.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-01-12 20:12:42

Focused Space Weather Strategy for Securing Earth, and Human Exploration of the Moon and Mars

https://spaceref.com/newspace-and-tech/ … -and-mars/

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-22 14:15:16

The report at the link below is about discovery of Peta-Electronvolt cosmic rays ...

https://interestingengineering.com/scie … 22.02.24_1

Gamma rays surpassing 1 PeV observed for first time in Milky Way
Some cosmic rays have more than 10 Peta-Electronvolt energy, millions of times higher than the largest human-made particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider.
Rizwan Choudhury
Updated: Feb 22, 2024 03:10 PM EST
Gamma rays surpassing 1 PeV observed for first time in Milky Way
China's Large High Altitude Air Shower Observatory.
Wu Lei via X
A team of Chinese researchers has found a giant bubble of ultra-high-energy gamma rays in the Cygnus region of the Milky Way, which reveals the origin of the most energetic cosmic rays ever detected.

(th)

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#51 2022-02-19 16:52:36

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#52 2022-02-20 07:29:11

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#53 2022-02-20 08:57:43

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#54 2022-02-20 10:46:11

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#55 2022-02-20 13:57:06

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#56 2022-02-22 20:17:05

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#57 2022-02-23 13:09:01

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#58 2022-02-23 20:40:33

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#59 2022-02-23 21:18:25

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#61 2022-02-23 23:48:10

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#62 2022-02-25 10:36:28

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#63 2022-02-25 20:42:20

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#64 2022-02-26 12:11:11

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#65 2022-02-26 15:46:40

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#66 2022-02-26 16:09:22

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#67 2022-02-27 09:01:28

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#68 2022-02-27 09:19:00

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#69 2022-04-09 15:53:43

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#70 2022-06-24 14:07:33

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#71 2022-06-24 16:52:44

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#72 2022-09-13 03:57:53

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#73 2022-09-13 21:16:20

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#74 2023-01-12 20:12:42

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