Crime and Punishment - Speculation

Hazer · 2003-11-09 21:36:20

It is my speculation that any future Martian law could be very draconian when compared to anything on Earth. Take violent offenders for instance. The Martian courts might elect to just throw them out ye-olde-airlock, or put them in a state of temporary or permanent servitude.

On a fairly new Martian colony, what would be the best method for dealing with a dangerous violent offender, such as a murderer or a rapist?

Byron · 2003-11-10 06:10:55

It is my speculation that any future Martian law could be very draconian when compared to anything on Earth. Take violent offenders for instance. The Martian courts might elect to just throw them out ye-olde-airlock, or put them in a state of temporary or permanent servitude.
On a fairly new Martian colony, what would be the best method for dealing with a dangerous violent offender, such as a murderer or a rapist?

Don't tell me you really think this... Going to Mars should be a break from barabaric practices such as capital punishment. If future Martians practice "Olde West" frontier law, I don't think the settlements would be able to last very long...

As for dealing with whatever crime there is on Mars (which should be greatly minimized by extensive psychological screening and *fair and equal* treatment of each and every member of the new settlement) I think there will be basically two choices for dealing with offenders: exile back to Earth and drugs. Exile would probably be used for capital offenders, such as murder, and treatment by mind-altering drugs be used for lesser crimes, such as theft or hitting another person.

Some of you may be squeamish by the thought of so-called "mind-washing" with the use of drugs, but my take is this...you don't want to be punished in this manner, then don't do the crime....

B

Gennaro · 2003-11-10 07:52:47

Exile would probably be used for capital offenders, such as murder, and treatment by mind-altering drugs be used for lesser crimes, such as theft or hitting another person.

- Sending back to exile on Earth? I thought that crimes should deserve a sentence and not a reward. Have you no empathy for the victims and their relatives?
Besides, why do you think that Earth people would want to deal with this bugger?

Byron · 2003-11-10 09:26:08

The reason why I suggested this is because I don't think early settlements will be able to spare the resources to maintain prisons and the like to keep people locked up for life. Even if you did have a jail on Mars, I think it'd be all too easy for a prisoner to eventually escape (like during an emergency or whatever) and wreck havoc on the community.

As for dumping unwanted criminals back on Earth, heck, the US does it all the time to non-citizens who commit crimes..hehe. Maybe the Martians will have a deal with a country like the US to accept violent criminals for punishment in exchange for sponsoring scientists, etc.

I just think that pushing people out the airlock is a bad idea...

B

Hazer · 2003-11-10 09:27:52

Don't tell me you really think this... Going to Mars should be a break from barabaric practices such as capital punishment. If future Martians practice "Olde West" frontier law, I don't think the settlements would be able to last very long...

It is speculation. Quite a lot of towns founded in the 1800s are still around. Some of them are ghost towns now, others are growing and vibrant.
<QUOTE>"As for dealing with whatever crime there is on Mars (which should be greatly minimized by extensive psychological screening and *fair and equal* treatment of each and every member of the new settlement) I think there will be basically two choices for dealing with offenders: exile back to Earth and drugs. Exile would probably be used for capital offenders, such as murder, and treatment by mind-altering drugs be used for lesser crimes, such as theft or hitting another person.</QUOTE>

Extensive psychological screening is a good idea for the settlers, but I ask you, what about first-generation Martians, the sons & daughters of the settlers? Are you going to screen them prior to birth?
Crime doesn't have to result from unfair treatment. I see the solution of exile being unrealistic as I doubt future colonists would want to let a capital offender get a free ride to earth. There might even be a form of permanent servitude, read slavery, imposed on such criminals.
You feel squeamish about this? Don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time.
I would even suggest giving most Martian criminals hard labor, instead of imprisonment. Of course, you'd have to hire someone to guard them. Why bother spending money on drugs-when you can get someone to construct your public works at a low-cost?

Eventually though, such extreme methods will become unnecessary as the colonies become more secure.

Byron · 2003-11-10 09:37:52

I would even suggest giving most Martian criminals hard labor, instead of imprisonment. Of course, you'd have to hire someone to guard them.

That's the problem...sparing people and resources just to keep these people locked up and/or working as a slave laborer will be a great burden on the Martians. The reasons why it costs so much to keep people in prison here on Earth is the extremely high cost of security...you have to have fortified buildings, high ratio of guards to prisoners, intricate security measures...and even then, you have the occasional prisoner escaping. It's not so bad here on Earth, as these criminals usually get caught before they can cause harm, but if a prisoner gets loose on Mars (pretty easy to do if you put him out on a project with a pressure suit...all it takes is a slightest slip-up by the guard(s), then the whole settlement could be placed at risk by the angry prisoner going around puncturing holes in the domes, letting the heat out of greenhouses, etc.

If the criminal is sent back to Earth, they will be sent back to be punished by a correctional system that is capable of dealing with people like this...so it will certainly will be no reward.

B

Euler · 2003-11-10 14:45:31

Sending criminals back to earth would be extremely expensive, especially because you would need to send guards with them (to prevent them from taking over the space ship). For serious cases I would suggest exile-but on Mars rather than on Earth. If the criminal can convince another colony to take him/her in, then he/she will probably spend many years of hard work trying to earn the colony?s trust. If the criminal's crimes are so horrible that no other colony is willing to take a chance with him/her, then he/she can expect to eventually die of starvation or asphyxiation.

Palomar · 2003-11-10 20:28:23

... and treatment by mind-altering drugs be used for lesser crimes, such as theft or hitting another person.
Some of you may be squeamish by the thought of so-called "mind-washing" with the use of drugs, but my take is this...you don't want to be punished in this manner, then don't do the crime....
B

*The trouble with mind-altering drugs as punishment is that they'd likely create more problems than solve, i.e. now the person needs medical supervision, may react violently to the drug, allergies have to be factored in, then there are long-term residual effects, etc. I think all that (for starters) is a bit harsh a punishment for "simple" assault and battery, or minor crimes.

Temporary (but REAL) social ostracization should never be underestimated as a deterrent. Even anti-social people like attention and feedback, albeit in a negative sense; they know their manipulations, antagonisms, insults, etc., will be *reacted* to; it's what they want. Most people cannot tolerate being ignored, given the cold shoulder, being treated as though they have ceased to exist. I think it would be a good deterrent, or a good "spur" if you will. After they're included back in the group (reward), they may feel the impetus to be more conscientious, socially responsible, etc.

However, this topic really does open up a can of worms. I think I speak for all women when I say I wouldn't want to be in proximity, in an enclosed environment, with a rapist. If Earth folk say, "Hey, don't send your thugs to us," what then?

It would be interesting to see how the early Marsian colonists work such problems out because no matter how intelligent and capable the early settlers/colonists are, or how good-intentioned their agenda and goals, etc., there is always a rotten apple in every barrell and as the population swells, so increase the human-relations problems.

What interests me is how it will be determined whether or not a crime has been committed (say, assault and battery or sexual harrassment...nothing "obvious" like murder, i.e. there's the cooling corpse with a knife in its chest), and who will pass judgment? I'm trying to imagine a group of perhaps 200 individuals in 1 enclosed area, with loyalties, jealousies, dislikes, biases, etc., which we all have to some degree or another. The judicial process might get very complicated, especially with the (gotta be 1 in the crowd) "Not MY precious sweet darling wonderful child/spouse/whatever; s/he's being framed, picked on, scapegoated!" type folks. I think they'd want to avoid "Martin and McCoy" types of family feud mentalities as well. The dividing lines can get very intense and very ugly, very quickly (I recall a recent case of sodomy and physical abuse on Long Island, between some school classmates on school property; now formerly friendly neighbors are bitter enemies toward one another; you'd want to avoid that like the plague in a little colony millions of miles from the nearest town!). I'm thinking special courts on Earth could review the case, ala grand-jury trial here in the U.S., be presented with evidence, decide if there's a case, etc., and then try it "long distance." The specifics of trying to work out such a method could prove hairy, but at least you'd have more assurance of an impartial, unbiased process with 3rd (disinterested) party involvement (i.e. courts on Earth).

Interesting speculation, and don't want to get the cart ahead of the horse, so will stop here.

--Cindy

Hazer · 2003-11-10 23:36:47

Bah, barbarism is wholly relative. Same with capital punishment. It is only barbaric if you think it so.

Interesting idea on criminal justice, having a tele-court might not be a bad idea at all. That said, I think a Martian criminal's lawyer would immediately demand Martians to be on the jury, as the accused should be tried by their peers.

Palomar · 2003-11-11 06:30:58

Bah, barbarism is wholly relative. Same with capital punishment. It is only barbaric if you think it so.

*Baloney.

I've read some accounts of past methods of capital punishment, namely torturing people to death. I recall the case of Damiens who, as punishment for stabbing King Louis XV of France (not a fatal stab wound), was sentenced to have the offending hand burned off (while he was completely alive and sober), made to suffer that torture while enduring others, and finally he was killed by having each limb strapped to a horse, and all 4 horses were goaded into running in opposite directions. The poor man shrieked in agony for quite some time before just 1 limb was ripped away; finally, the horses managed to do the "job," and he died. All in all, Damiens endured grueling agony for probably at least 2 hours straight, all combined.

There's no difference, you'll say (because you're a moral relativist), between that and capital punishment via an air-conditioned room, a mattress and pillow, and lethal injection.

Give me a break.

Too bad we can't ask Damiens which method of capital punishment he would have preferred. Bets are on that he'd rather have gone the way Timothy McVeigh did (that clean cool room, mattress and pillow, a slip of a syringe).

--Cindy

P.S.: Don't want to turn this into a "capital punishment or no?" debate. Just trying to point out my belief that relativism is generally a misguided sentiment. I suppose next you'll tell us there's no difference between consensual sexual intercourse and forcible rape ("Nope, it's just rape if you think it is, blah blah"). Baloney. If everything is "merely relative," why bother discussing crime in the first place? Do you believe there's such a thing as crime to begin with? Or maybe it's all "just crime if you think it is"? Rhetorical questions, to point out where the "logic" of moral relativism leads.

Byron · 2003-11-11 07:01:52

Bah, barbarism is wholly relative. Same with capital punishment. It is only barbaric if you think it so.

I agree with Cindy...this sort of thing is NOT relative. Also, I honestly hope that future Martians will be just a tad more evolved with these sorts of things. Will there be a way to eliminate crime altogther? Probably not. Do we have to resort to executions in the public square? I would hope not, as I think we really should get away from the old "eye for an eye" Old Testament type of stuff.

Maybe Cindy's remote courts will be the answer. Perhaps capital offenders will be shipped off to Phobos where they can be easily kept under guard while they serve out their sentence. I'm sure the settlers will be able to figure something out...

B

clark · 2003-11-11 09:42:43

What to do, what to do.

If they go there will be trouble, if they stay there will be double... :laugh:

Ah relativism. It is all relative, really. Some think a type of murder is bad, some think another type of murder is okay. Yet it's all just murder, but you understand the nuance becuase you can compare it to other situations or instances, which is all relative.

Will future martians throw people out the airlock for crimes? Perhaps. It is rather effecient, and really, you would be dead in seconds. The US still has the chair, the chamber, or for those with pangs of guilt, a needle and three chemicals.

You can be a child, and be killed in the freest nation on earth. You can be psychotic, then, after years of mental treatment, restored to sanity, only to be murdered by the group for a crime you commited while sick. But I suppose this is all relative.

But, I'll leave you to it. Just think about this:

Mars, and space, exsists in a medium that will kill humans without some sort of infrastructure and community. Criminals tend to want to get away, not go on a killing rampage destroying the very infrastructure they need as well to survive. You can only terroize people so far before they see the writing on the wall and just quit, even under threat or duress. Criminals can't go anywhere. Sure, they could try to blast off planet on some rocket, makes a great story, but where would they go? Earth? Um, how? They can't get away.

So what do you do? Build a dome about a hundred yards from the community, remove all means to leave the habitat, as well as tools to allow one to build a way to leave, and presto chango, instant jailhouse that the prisoners can never leave.

They riot, cut off the oxygen to level where they all pass out- or just gass them, whatever. Implant tracking devices into their bodies- now you know where they are at all times, even if they escape.

I would be more afraid of the criminal system than the criminals though.

Hazer · 2003-11-11 16:24:40

The barbarism comment was made in response to

Going to Mars should be a break from barabaric practices such as capital punishment. If future Martians practice "Olde West" frontier law, I don't think the settlements would be able to last very long...

I was merely pointing out that whether or not a practice was barbaric, depends entirely on who you are.
Barbaric
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of barbarians.
Barbarian
1. A member of a people considered by those of another nation or group to have a primitive civilization.
So in one sense, it is relative, but in another sense it isn't.

But to preach on the meanings of words was not my intent, my intent was to stimulate discussion on how any future Martian colony might deal with offenders.

Cobra Commander · 2003-11-11 17:26:07

For the foreseeable future, Mars will remain an inhospitable place. to keep a single human alive will require significant amounts energy in many forms, from the food they eat to the power that keeps them from freezing to the effort required to build the habitat in the first place.

Does it make economic sense to keep an entire dome fully supplied simply to house criminals? Depends on the crime I suppose. But then what is the purpose of imprisonment? To keep the offender away from the general population so that they cannot commit another crime. Death does this more effectively and cheaper, too. Of course we can't go around spacing every pickpocket and vandal, so what are we to do?

Why not simply alter the scale of punishment from what is familiar? Punishments more fitting of the crime may be in order, rather than the universal answer of prison. Thiefs must make restitution in excess of what was stolen, for example. Still other "crimes" could simply be ignored. Drug use for example, it can't possibly be more of a drain on society than sending the offender to prison, and as long as they don't cause a distruption where's the harm? Sure, to them but if the actions of every citizen are suddenly my responsibiliy then I'm even more in favor of the death penalty, keeps the taxes low. ???

No prison for lesser crimes, half the problem solved. Now we have murders, rapists and the like. I have no problem with killing these people. Blow 'em out the airlock if you want. Or be creative, I really don't care as long they die and suffer some in the process.

Of course we then must be certain not to convict the innocent. It is likely that every corner of a Martian colony will be under surveillance of some sort. I may not like the idea, but it makes catching criminals easier. Still, we will be setting precedent and a something more will be required, and defining it will take time. If we can reliably determine guilt or innocence, I see no reason not to have the death penalty on Mars or elsewhere. I don't like killing anything, but with the preceding conditions met there is simply no rational objection.

Josh Cryer · 2003-11-11 22:03:05

You know, I've always thought that punishment should equal the crime. Stab someone in the heart and kill them, you get stabbed in the heart and killed. Chop off someones hand, you get your hand chopped, off, etc. Take someones wallet, you get your wallet taken (ie, some sort of short term servitude, or something). And so on.

Of course, for things like execution, I can see being nicer about it (instead of stabing in the heart, a nice cute injection could take place, or suffocation or something equally comforting).

Bleh, whatever.

Free Spirit · 2003-11-14 00:43:56

I'm tempted to say that the best way to prevent crime on Mars is to not go there in the first place. But If you're already there and have a violent criminal that's hell bent on destruction, you might have no choice but to let the lunatic out for some of that fresh, Martian air. Better that than to let them totally destroy everything and everyone. For less violent crimes like petty theft, just make the bastard that stole give back what he took and tell him if he does it again he might be treated to some fresh air.

Rxke · 2003-11-14 03:51:38

Problem I see with 'ruthless' capital punishment in a small community with absolutely no means of escape: the murderer knows he'll be killed when caught, knows he can't get away, so has nothing to lose... You know what happens with a wild animal trapped in a corner...

You have to have 'a way out,' be it forced-dangerous labour, or whatever... as long as he knows there is a chance to come out of it alive, there's a possibility to surrender without creating life-threathening havoc for the whole community...

(what about working outside during the day, calculating the received radiation dosage as a way to shorten punishment? Sounds harsh, but someone, sometime will have to go out fixing damaged stuff during solar storms etc....)

Wim · 2003-11-16 05:50:55

But than again will he do a good repairjob ? I seriously doubt that. A bit of fresh Martian air for that person won't hurt (the rest of the community).
Or maybe roadconstruction, won't be that much to do wrong with ...

Cobra Commander · 2003-11-16 17:22:16

But than again will he do a good repairjob ? I seriously doubt that.

That is one reason I'm opposed to using criminals for forced labor, the work usually has to be redone anyway.

The other, more important reason is this: If we use convicted criminals as a source of cheap labor, we create an economic incentive to convict a certain number of people. Speed limits are a case in point, local police departments are so dependant on the revenue generated from issuing tickets that they have quotas which must be met, even if the circumstances don't warrant it. Just as a set minimum number of speeding tickets must be issued, so to would a set number of people need to be convicted. It practically begs the system to become corrupt, and governments need no encouraging in that regard.

Byron · 2003-11-16 17:53:54

But than again will he do a good repairjob ? I seriously doubt that.
That is one reason I'm opposed to using criminals for forced labor, the work usually has to be redone anyway.
The other, more important reason is this: If we use convicted criminals as a source of cheap labor, we create an economic incentive to convict a certain number of people. Speed limits are a case in point, local police departments are so dependant on the revenue generated from issuing tickets that they have quotas which must be met, even if the circumstances don't warrant it. Just as a set minimum number of speeding tickets must be issued, so to would a set number of people need to be convicted. It practically begs the system to become corrupt, and governments need no encouraging in that regard.

Cobra, I agree with you a 100% on this one.

If the colonists are too squeamish about pushing the hard-core criminals out the airlock, sending them back to Earth is really the best option, imo.

B

clark · 2003-11-18 11:13:44

What if criminals were merely monitored 24/7, and wore some sort of identifier that allows people to discern them as criminals? So, for the less than violent, social stigma is used as a means to reform, and have them pay their debt back to society. Total monitoring means they can't get away with any new crimes, and with a varitey of identification levels for criminals, everyone knows who to watch out for.

just a thought, trying to get a stay of execution.

Wim · 2003-11-18 13:52:18

That is one reason I'm opposed to using criminals for forced labor, the work usually has to be redone anyway.

Doesn't it depend on what kind of work they have to do. I mean with basic constructionwork of some kind, you can't do much wrong, can you ?
Moving the the big Martian rocks out of the way for a roadconstruction.
Let them breath some Martian air and see how the human reacts.
Dusting off solar panels.
I don't know I'm just thinking outloud, maybe you're right.

A.J.Armitage · 2003-11-26 02:09:46

Byron;

It seems kind of odd to wish for Mars to break with capital punishment, but not with the murdering and raping that would make it necessary in the first place.

For what reason should Martians pay for their food and life support until the next window, and then send them back instead of saleable cargo or a law-abiding person who wants to return to Earth? Certain very serious criminals could only be dealt with by death.

ecrasez;

I think they'd want to avoid "Martin and McCoy" types of family feud mentalities as well.

The McCoys got themselves in another feud?

I always knew Granny Hatfield was right about them...

Algol · 2003-11-26 05:09:19

What if criminals were merely monitored 24/7, and wore some sort of identifier that allows people to discern them as criminals?

The Star of David perhaps?...... ???

clark · 2003-11-26 10:25:59

As opposed to a gas chamber?.... ???

Most agree that humanity, and our institutions, are fallible. If so, it behooves us all to allow for a way to undo anything that our institutions or we do.

You kill someone, it's done. You can't undo that. We can't undo the wrong we might commit. So why do it?

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Re: Crime and Punishment - Speculation

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