Mining Water Ice on Mars

SpaceNut · 2019-10-06 17:33:41

bump
power required to get water

louis · 2019-10-06 17:51:01

I get the impression from recent developments that NASA/SpaceX think they have identified water-ice deposits at latitudes where they can benefit near max solar power.

My takeaway from what I have read is that there are points where ice protrudes from the sides of craters and is maybe covered to several metres' depth by fairly loose regolith (rather than hard rock).

So to me it sounds like a job for robot diggers (to remove the regolith cover) and then robots, with powerful drills, to break off chunks of ice. The ice can be lifted into containers and then driven back to the propellant plant facility, which I would envisage being a separate hab from the residential hab - located a safe distance away. The propellant hab would have pipes connecting it to storage facilities. I would then envisage dedicated rovers tapping the stored propellant-fuel and taking it to gradually refuel the return Starship.

The rovers might work under the supervision of humans in a separate pressurised rover. Or they might directly operate a water mining rover.

The return Starship might have quite a different configuration from a normal Starship to allow for ground level refuelling.

SpaceNut · 2019-10-06 18:12:43

So depending on a scouting mission or some other method to land in a sweet spot for water we are going to be having an easy time at low energy per kg of the commodity to make fuel or we are going to be spending kw for each scoup to get a gram....
So landing even the biggest of ship will not help as the planning will not work out...this would put the risk factors on high...

elderflower · 2019-10-08 09:34:06

To extract massive ice from a deposit outcropping on a steep slope I expect the process would initially be adit mining, avoiding the need to deal with large volumes of overburden. When we have built up a presence in sufficient force, we can move to standard open cast mining.
For this early phase we still need earth moving equipment to create access roads and remove the product to the melting/ purifying plant. And rock drills, blasting materials and hydraulic pit props and the people with the expertise required. Even a mine producing a couple of thousand tonnes per year will be a substantial undertaking.
To make it a bit easier we could, perhaps, pressurise the mine to, say, half a bar and replace it's CO2 with N2, Ar and O2.
I suppose that usable N2/Ar will be a by product of CO2 collection.

GW Johnson · 2019-10-08 11:42:44

Elderflower:

If you're lucky enough to have a buried massive ice deposit, you could just drill down well into it, case the hole, and then do steam injection down the cased hole to heat and pressurize the ice and cavities therein. Then liquid water comes rushing back up your pipe. Drilling and steam injection are even easier than any kind of mining.

You do need a big energy supply, and an initial big "pot" of water to make your steam, to get started. You ain't gonna do this on no single Kilopower unit or on half an acre of solar panels. But you could preheat the water with solar thermal, to reduce the energy cost of the live steam somewhat.

GW

SpaceNut · 2019-10-08 16:49:55

We have hints that the covered ice does exist but until we mount a lander or rover to go we will always wonder just how much.

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-05 08:40:26

It is time to bring this topic back into view. It was created by Louis, and a number of members contributed. The recent posts in the forum include news of discovery of significant amounts of water buried at the equator under 1000 meters of regolith.

I asked ChatGPT4 to ask DALL-E to create an image showing water mining on Mars. Here is a report on the prompt:

Water Mining on Mars: Pioneering the Future of Space Exploration
Introduction
The prospect of water mining on Mars represents a cornerstone of humanity's future in space exploration and the potential colonization of the Red Planet. With confirmed deposits of water ice, especially at the polar caps and subsurface at lower latitudes, Mars presents a viable resource for sustaining human life, fueling rockets, and supporting long-term exploration missions.
Methods of Water Extraction
Extracting water on Mars poses unique challenges, given the planet's thin atmosphere, extreme cold, and low gravity. The following methods have been proposed to tap into this crucial resource:
1. Direct Mining of Ice: Utilizing heavy machinery to drill or excavate through Martian soil and ice to access water deposits directly.
2. Subsurface Heating: Employing solar mirrors or electrical heaters to vaporize subsurface ice, which can then be condensed into liquid water.
3. Atmospheric Water Extraction: Developing technology to extract water vapor directly from Mars' thin atmosphere, despite its low humidity levels.
Challenges and Solutions
The endeavor to mine water on Mars is fraught with engineering and logistical hurdles. Solutions involve the development of advanced robotics, autonomous drilling rigs, and solar-powered desalination units. Overcoming these challenges requires international collaboration, innovative research, and significant investment in space technology.
Future Prospects
The successful extraction of water on Mars will have far-reaching implications, supporting sustainable human presence on the planet, facilitating in-situ resource utilization (ISRU), and paving the way for further solar system exploration. As technologies advance and international partnerships strengthen, the dream of Mars colonization moves closer to reality.
Conclusion
Water mining on Mars is not just a technical challenge; it's a vital step towards expanding human horizons beyond Earth. As we stand on the brink of this new era of exploration, the combined efforts of scientists, engineers, and policymakers will be crucial in turning the science fiction dream of Mars colonization into a science fact.
Join the discussion and share your thoughts on the future of water mining on Mars and its implications for human space exploration.

A link to the image goes here:

Note: Future additions to this topic may include a Texas Oil Rig transported without modification to Mars. The power for this system will need to come from CO and O2, as discussed at great length elsewhere in the forum. Therefore, the engines shipped from Earth will need to be modified to work with that locally available set of chemicals.

In addition, FriendOfQuark1 suggested an Open Pit Mine as worth considering, when the population of Mars is sufficient to justify the investment.

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tahanson43206 · 2024-02-05 12:40:22

In last night's Google Meeting, kbd512 showed images of Texas style oil rigs.

In today's work session with ChatGPT4, we asked DALL-E to show an oil rig on Mars. We got off to a bumpy start, because DALL-E found ocean going oil rigs first, and we had a tough time getting it to stop show those. The image below comes pretty close to showing what a used oil rig from a Texas reseller might look like if it were moved to Mars, intact and without change.

Texas Oil Rig on Mars: A Pioneering Venture for Water Extraction
In a groundbreaking venture that marries terrestrial engineering prowess with extraterrestrial aspirations, a Texas oil rig has been transplanted to the equatorial plains of Mars. This ambitious project aims to tap into water reserves believed to be 1000 meters below the Martian surface, a critical step toward sustaining human presence and exploration on the Red Planet.
The Rig's Adaptation to Martian Conditions
The rig, a familiar sight in the vast prairies of Texas, has been meticulously adapted for the harsh conditions of Mars. It sits isolated on the Martian plain, surrounded by nothing but the red planet's iconic stones and wind-swept sands. The absence of other elements in the vicinity focuses attention on the rig's structure and the monumental task it is set to accomplish.
Teleoperation Robots: The Unsung Heroes
On-site operations are managed by teleoperation robots, controlled by operators from orbiting facilities overhead. This innovative approach not only mitigates the risks associated with human presence on the Martian surface but also exemplifies the fusion of robotics and remote operation technology in overcoming the challenges of extraterrestrial exploration.
Mission Objective
The primary objective of this venture is straightforward yet ambitious: to locate and retrieve water from depths of 1000 meters below the Martian surface. Achieving this would mark a significant milestone in human efforts to extract vital resources from Mars, opening new avenues for colonization and long-term survival on the planet.
Conclusion
The transplantation of a Texas oil rig to Mars represents a bold leap forward in our quest to become a multi-planetary species. It symbolizes a bridge between Earth's industrial might and the boundless possibilities of space exploration. As this project progresses, it promises not only to quench the thirst of future Martian explorers but also to lay the groundwork for more ambitious endeavors in the cosmos.
Join us in discussing this pioneering venture and its implications for the future of space exploration. What are your thoughts on the use of terrestrial technology in extraterrestrial environments? Share your insights below.

A link to the image goes here:

Note: We've had some distraction with worries about saving weight by making some parts out of titanium, for example. From my perspective, this is a waste of time. The rig exists. The rig works. It will certainly work on Mars. The rig can be (and usually is) broken down into truck sized lots of parts that can be shipped to Mars as is.

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tahanson43206 · 2024-02-05 20:08:43

This vision of a water mining operation on Mars comes to us from FriendOfQuark1. Like kbd512, FriendOfQuark1 has experience in the the oil services business.

Envisioning Mars: The Open Pit Mine and Dome-Capped City
In a leap towards the future of Martian colonization, we present an expansive open pit mine, ingeniously designed to tap into the depths of Mars, reaching 1000 meters below the surface. This colossal structure, with a gentle slope of 10%, showcases the magnitude of human ambition and engineering prowess. Gigantic trucks ascend the spiraling roads, a testament to the relentless pursuit of vital resources.
Beyond the industrial might of the mine, the horizon is graced by a futuristic city, a beacon of human settlement on Mars. Each building, a marvel of design, rises as a cylinder, achieving height without sacrificing stability, each capped with a dome. This architectural choice not only adheres to the practical needs of Martian habitats but also opens a new chapter in extraterrestrial aesthetics.
The city's skyline, dotted with these dome-capped structures, speaks volumes of the community's resilience and adaptability. It's a city that marries functionality with imagination, where every dome stands as a symbol of safety and every cylinder, a pillar of Martian society's aspirations.
This vision of Mars challenges us to think beyond traditional boundaries, inspiring a blend of creativity and practicality in designing our future homes in the cosmos. What are your thoughts on this innovative approach to Martian architecture? How do you see human life evolving in such a uniquely designed city? Share your insights and join the conversation below.

Link to image goes here:

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tahanson43206 · 2024-02-06 07:36:28

In the Google Meeting on Sunday February 4th, kbd512 pointed out a web site where oil rigs are for sale.

Today I visited the site and reviewed some of the many offerings... This one stood out because pipe handling is automated.

Manufacturers include companies in the US, Europe and China.

https://www.oilrigsnow.com/wp-content/u … ummary.pdf

The details are shown in a PDF documentl.

Todo items:

1) Engines must be modified to work with CO and O2.
2) A system to supply CO and O2 on site is needed.
3) In addition to automation of pipe handling, all functions need to be controlled remotely.
4) Components need to be moved in lots of 40 tons or less

There may be additional modifications needed for operation at Mars.

A plan for retrieval of material from depth is needed. The system used by ice core drillers in the Earth arctic and antarctic regions seems able to pull ice from the depths.That system appears to involve pipe removal.

An alternative suggested by Calliban, kbd512 and GW Johnson is to melt the ice at depth, and drive it up a secondary pipe.

A heating system is needed, in any case.

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tahanson43206 · 2024-02-06 12:34:20

FriendOfQuark1 is ao occasional contributor to this forum...

The quote below is from email, reproduced here with permission.

The water well equipment is virtually identical, just smaller scale and often mounted on a truck e.g. you don't break it down and 'stack' it to ship, you just put it in drive. Cost is more of a concern so they usually have the last generation's technology and use "roller cone" style bits instead of "PDC" style. Either should be fine for the application. One of my old employers sold a few hundred water well bits a year. The reason I say water well equipment is the engineering around that is focused on saving cost which often means using smaller equipment and just spending more hours drilling. You don't need to drill fast for this application and your profit margin should be *ahem* astronomical. A few extra hours of labor is trivial.
"Drilling Mud" or "Drilling Fluid" is almost entirely Barite (barium sulfate) [the best stuff comes from China but you won't need low Mercury or particularly pure stuff as the EPA can't tell you the algae or leaches or whatever in the area are endangered] ground to a fine powder, and diesel fuel. The end substance is quite a lot like runny Vaseline and serves as lubricant, medium to evacuate the drilled material, counter for hydrostatic and other pressures, and more. It is essential. The Barite is used because it is 1) inert 2) HEAVY. It won't take up much room but you are looking at a truckload or about 40,000 pounds of material. The cost is trivial to the rest of the operation so there isn't much engineering around trying to use less mud. The service co's might have some ideas on how you can do a 'low mud' approach though. You can improve performance of mud by a few percent with some nasty chemicals but just barite and diesel will work fine. (Note, there has been experimentation with 'water based mud' where you use regular H20 instead of diesel. You need some glycol additives to make it work properly. See NewPark Resources for the leader in that experimentation.
Steam treatment equipment for wells already exists off the shelf (it is mostly used in "remediating" old wells) and extending useful life of a well that is getting clogged with sand. (see more about sand below!) You might want to look into the process for Canadian Oil Sands (bitumen extraction). That is an open pit mine process but the product has to be separated from the sand via steam reformation. The Canadians are quite skilled at doing that at scale. The hard part here is what is your fuel and how do you burn it without the oxygen in your product? Nuclear heat? The Canadians burn some of the associated gas in the product...
Finally, don't forgot about how you are going to "put weight on bit". If you've ever drilled a board with a hand drill, you know you have to PUSH to get the bit to chew wood. Water/Oil drilling is the same. You are going to need 3 times as much mass to get the same effect. Presumably you can source dumb mass locally but it is going to need some engineering done.
There are some other concerns, such as how you keep your well from collapsing in on itself. Transporting 3000 foot of 'liner' seems problematic, and so does cementing the well in place.
One more thing...are you expecting to find basically a frozen underground lake? Water underground (at least on Earth) tends to churn into the surrounding material and is often more of muddy slush that gets strained out. I think if you steam reform, you are going to need a submersible pump that can handle a high percentage of solids, else carry screens to put bottom hole and consult with the service co's on "sand control" technology.

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Oldfart1939 · 2024-02-07 16:35:47

tahanson43206 wrote:

FriendOfQuark1 is ao occasional contributor to this forum...
The quote below is from email, reproduced here with permission.
Finally, don't forgot about how you are going to "put weight on bit". If you've ever drilled a board with a hand drill, you know you have to PUSH to get the bit to chew wood. Water/Oil drilling is the same. You are going to need 3 times as much mass to get the same effect. Presumably you can source dumb mass locally but it is going to need some engineering done.
(th)

I am quoting this statement because the last "drilling attempt" that JPL/NASA sent to Mars for their seismic probe used a "self hammering nail," and was a complete failure.

If you're gonna send drilling equipment to Mars, have a professional well driller design the system!

GW Johnson · 2024-02-08 17:36:51

I second Olfart1939's motion.

I'm not a well driller, but there's a lot of folks who are.

The mass of the drilling platform is huge. All you need do is push down on the drill stem from the platform. On Mars, if its weight isn't enough, then ballast it with regolith.

What makes the bit work is down force and torque. Plus the cooling effect of drilling mud, which is dense enough to float the rock chips out of the way. That's dirt plus water, but the cold on Mars might be a problem. I do not know what they do in the Arctic about that, but it would also likely work on Mars.

It's stuff like that which is why real well drillers ought to design this stuff for Mars. PERIOD.

GW

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-11 08:27:21

During the weekly Google Meeting last week, kbd512 pointed out a Texas seller of new and used oil rigs.

Of those on offer at the seller's site, I found this one particularly interesting.

DRILLMEC

https://www.drillmec.com/en/

The animation on the home page shows what a ** real ** drilling rig on Mars would look like.

This company has (according to it's web site) been in business for 100 years, and it's current products lean toward automation.

I put an inquiry on the company web site, and got this reply:

Grazie per averci contattato.
La contatteremo in merito al più presto.

By coincidence, GW Johnson is working on a lander for Mars, capable of delivery of 40 tons of mass to the surface.

If we are contacted by this company, I'll ask if the rig can be broken down into lots of 40 tons or less. My understanding is that all oil rigs are designed to be broken down for movement by truck, so I'd expect the loads for each truck would total to no more than 40 tons.

I asked Google, and got this result ....

Showing results for What is a typical maximum load for a flat bed heavy equipment truck
Search instead for What is a typical maximum load for a flat bed heavy equiipment truck
46,000-48,000 pounds
Flatbed trailers, more specifically (which are most commonly a five-axle combination), can legally haul a maximum load weight of 46,000-48,000 pounds.
How Much Weight Can I Put On a Flatbed Trailer? [An ...

23 to 24 tons .... Small potatoes compared to NASA's stated goal of 40 tons delivered to Mars.

Supplies can be shipped along with each section of the rig, to fill out the 40 tons.

As a reminder, for new readers, this rig would be operated remotely by workers in orbit around Mars.

The oil rig I'm interested in for this project is designed for fully automated operation with remote control.

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Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-02-12 08:29:21

Just making a comment on the amazing artificial art in this thread, I have used many free programs for an 'Art' illustration pic and no matter which Artificial Intelligence program I used it does not always give you what you want. It is a young software like a robot artificial child, it does however do incredible illustration in seconds but you have to be patient and communicate perhaps many times. Maybe its like a movie director you are the director and have a vision, you have an idea of the landscape, the sounds, the machines and the art work and props that are needed to produce a work but you depend on others people from visual and audio effects teams who try to make the director's picture a printed reality. If AI is this good already try to imagine how far ahead it will be in 20 or 30 years, is this what has real life human artists worried?

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-02-12 08:33:02)

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-13 07:52:51

This is for SpaceNut ....

You have a post which is second in this topic after Louis created the topic...

Would you be willing to edit that post?

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 25#p147725

I ask because Void has reported the recent article about ESA discovery of water at the equator using radar.

Link to Void’s post with report on ESA’s radar discovery of water under equator
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 89#p218989

If you update your post with the link to the water report via Void's post, future readers will be able to follow the links to the original report.

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SpaceNut · 2024-02-13 08:03:39

The equipment does not have any boots on ground measurement, and it is the same equipment that was used back then.
The boots on ground is a confirmation of equipment testing results that was done by the radar electromagnetic reflection.

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-13 09:09:22

For SpaceNut re #42

What's "boots on the ground" got to do with this?

I've asked you to put a link to Void's post into your post at the top of the topic.

My idea is to help future readers who look at the topic to see if there is anything worth their time.

You can update the topic later (much later on) when there are actual reports from onsite equipment.

It is going to be many many years before we see such reports.

In the mean time, this forum has the potential to serve as a source of useful information about topics related to the Mars project.

The location of deposits is high on the needs list for mission planners.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2024-02-13 12:58:36

The "boots on the ground" is the physical presence of proof by being able to see what remote sensing by the radar is indicating is there and to what degree.

Picture walking with a handheld metal detector and it sounds but can you say it's not a rust deposit or a solid coin. Until you turn the ground as only an indicator that it is not proven.

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-13 13:33:19

For SpaceNut re #44

This request is NOT about boots on the ground!

It IS about YOU helping our readers to find useful information on the web site.

Please add a link to Void's post about the ESA radar observations to your Post #2 at the top of this topic.

This is very easy for you to do, and it will be a big help to our readers.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2024-02-14 17:36:55

The Shallow Radar is also known as SHARAD. The radar "pings" the surface of Mars in search of a strong radar return wave that may indicate the presence of underground liquid or frozen water.

May = not proven

emits a 10-watt chirped pulse downswept from 25 to 15 MHz, yielding a 15-meter range resolution in free-space.

Dielectric contrasts between the atmosphere and surface and between layers in the subsurface (e.g., water and carbon-dioxide ices, ash deposits, lava flows) reflect a portion of the radar signal back toward the spacecraft. The returned signals are detected by the same SHARAD antenna that transmitted the original signal moments earlier. The data are processed onboard and back on Earth to produce 2D radargrams, which are cross-sectional views of the returned signal power along MRO's ground track.

2d does not tell depth which requires 3d to show if water with depth change.

The most common frequency for a microwave oven is 2,450 MH which puts energy into water that creates heat within the chamber at 600 w - 1,000w.

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-14 19:25:06

For SpaceNut re 46...

What are you quoting from?

This is the original article I would like to show to our readers. Void found this:
https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean

Here is a quote from the article:

The deposits are thick, extended 3.7km (2.3) miles underground, and topped by a crust of hardened ash and dry dust hundreds of meters thick. The ice is not a pure block but is heavily contaminated by dust. While its presence near the equator is a location more easily accessible to future crewed missions, being buried so deep means that accessing the water-ice would be difficult.

What did you find?

Did you read the article about the ESA discovery, or did you skip over it?

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SpaceNut · 2024-02-15 19:09:45

My post 2 and 46 are about the device on MARS Reconnaissance Orbiter for the SHARD but the void and you post 47 are talking about Mars Express MARSIS is a subsurface radar sounder with a 40-meter (130-foot) antenna on the Mars Express orbiter that will search for water and study the atmosphere.

Similar instruments have been flown on low-flying aircraft to probe deep into the ice sheets of Antarctica and Greenland. At Mars, the instrument with its long antenna will fly over the planet, bouncing radio waves over a selected area and then receiving and analyzing the "echoes." Any near-surface liquid water should send a strong signal, while ice would be more difficult to detect since its electrical radar signal would be about the same as rock. The echoes will also help characterize the materials and roughness of the surface.

These units are not the same and function differently but similar in that they are listening for bounce back reflections.

SpaceNut · 2024-02-16 17:23:03

So where is the water we need?

We have seen photos of brine leaks along hill side slopes.

Here is where the measured water has been found with rovers' locations.

This is the cycle of water loss to the atmosphere that is being blown away by solar wind.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2019-10-06 17:33:41

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#27 2019-10-06 17:51:01

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#28 2019-10-06 18:12:43

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#29 2019-10-08 09:34:06

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#30 2019-10-08 11:42:44

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#31 2019-10-08 16:49:55

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#32 2024-02-05 08:40:26

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

Water Mining on Mars: Pioneering the Future of Space Exploration

Introduction

Methods of Water Extraction

Challenges and Solutions

Future Prospects

Conclusion

#33 2024-02-05 12:40:22

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

Texas Oil Rig on Mars: A Pioneering Venture for Water Extraction

#34 2024-02-05 20:08:43

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

Envisioning Mars: The Open Pit Mine and Dome-Capped City

#35 2024-02-06 07:36:28

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#36 2024-02-06 12:34:20

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#37 2024-02-07 16:35:47

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#38 2024-02-08 17:36:51

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#39 2024-02-11 08:27:21

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#40 2024-02-12 08:29:21

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#41 2024-02-13 07:52:51

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#42 2024-02-13 08:03:39

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#43 2024-02-13 09:09:22

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#44 2024-02-13 12:58:36

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#45 2024-02-13 13:33:19

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#46 2024-02-14 17:36:55

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#47 2024-02-14 19:25:06

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#48 2024-02-15 19:09:45

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

#49 2024-02-16 17:23:03

Re: Mining Water Ice on Mars

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