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#151 2024-02-09 08:11:01

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,420

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

For Calliban re #150

In hopes of encouraging your line of thought, please recast your idea on a smaller scale.  It is possible (for me at least)  to imagine a community heated in this way, by physically moving containers of thermal energy from a central repository (such as a reactor) to buildings some distance away.  The heat of the reactor goes into the environment by default, so it should be possible to heat rocks in mobile containers, and move the containers to where they are needed. 

I'm thinking of this as an efficient way to set up an instant community, such as a refugee camp where disaster strikes a region.

However, this concept might work longer term, if the community is intended to last for a while, such as for a large project. I'm thinking here of the Hoover Dam project, which was out in the middle of nowhere, so a city was built for workers and their families.

On Mars, workers will (probably) want to be separated in their own cave dwellings, but a hot thermal supply such as you've described might work nicely to keep the interiors warm, and the thermal energy of the central reactor is not wasted to the environment.

(th)

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#152 2024-02-09 08:50:25

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,282

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

If homes are to be heated using nuclear heat from a reactor that is some miles distant but on the same land mass, piping the heat as hot water would make more sense.  Soil can provide some of the insulation.  That would work even better on Mars because the regolith has about the same thermal conductivity as rockwool.

It is possible in principle to ship heat in the form of boiling water in an insulated road tanker trailer.  The trailer would be left on a housing complex, drained into a shared heating system and then collected when empty.  But it would add a lot to road traffic.  In the US, where habitation is more spread out, this might be a long term option.  The US has abundant natural gas right now.  But it is wise to plan for a future where that bounty is less abundant.

In the UK, housing development is more concentrated, with a high density of dwellings per square mile.  Building city scale district heating networks is a sensible long term goal for us.  The most resource efficient heating option would be to build small modular reactors on the outskirts of towns and cities and use them in combined heat and power mode.

I just wanted to see if long distance transport of heat between countries was possible.  It looks like it is, but the amount of steel needed to build the heat batteries is significant.  And it only works at all if we already have heat distribution networks built in our towns and cities.  Which we don't.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-09 09:01:26)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#153 2024-02-09 08:59:47

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

Calliban, if I may (And have),

Maybe a ship with a tank of salt and a tank for liquid air.  Sail it to a location of power, melt the salt and liquify the air.  Two phase changes of storage.

When you discharge the air, you might warm it with sea or river water first and then the molten salt.  This might work with wind or solar, or other.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-09 09:00:41)


Done.

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#154 2024-02-09 09:21:47

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,282

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

Liquid air is probably a better idea than the hot rock battery for long distance energy transport.  If it is expanded at 300K, maximum recoverable work is 620MJ/m3.  But that is work energy, which is more valuable than heat.  Because of the low temperature of 77K, the air would need to be transported in austenitic stainless tanks.  But the air is liquid, so it can flow through pipes at its destination.  It can therefore be shipped in larger tankers.  It can be used to generate electric power, so it doesn't need to be delivered to the shoreline of every coastal town or city.  The liquid air can be delivered year round and stored in underground tanks at destination.  So this is a more efficient option from a logistical viewpoint.

Another 'cool' thing about liquid air - the energy source that generates it can be mechanical rather than electrical.  We connect the steam turbine of our solar thermal plant to an axial compressor.  Using repeated compression and expansion cycles, we get liquid air without need for an electric generator.  That saves a lot of cash and a lot rare elements.  Everything involved in making the liquid air is made out of steel.  That is very different to a hydrogen energy carrier which has to be made using electrolysis and is a real pig to liquefy, store and transport.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-09 09:24:34)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#155 2024-02-09 11:09:14

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

You have some options.  Your wind power at sea is a potential.  You can liquify air and use the heat to heat a vat of water.
A vat of hot water costs money though.  You might drill wells, and push heat down them.  Europe and Brittan do not frack though so I guess you would have to use something like an eavor system.

(For other people: https://www.bing.com/search?q=eavor+geo … 96d9cbe38)

Doing this would allow better utilization of your undersea electric cables, as you could smooth out the peaks and troughs.

But you might contract the liquid air out to overseas sources, and simply have hot water storage from your wind farms.

Contracting would put you in the driver's seat, as you can accept the best bids.  Various energy sources may do.

One I like but don't know the practicality of is a sailing ship, which has propellers, but they are turbines.  The ship can dump heat of making liquid air into the sea.  For propulsion other than wind, it can have air motors since it has liquid air on board. 

So, I have even pondered the roaring 40's in that case you may have a provider based in Chile, South Africa, Australia, or New Zealand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roaring_Forties

Quote:

Similar but even stronger conditions that occur at more southerly latitudes are called the Furious Fifties[4] and the Shrieking or Screaming Sixties.[5]

And the water is nicely cold the closer you get to Antarctica.

But you also then need naval forces to prevent piracy, according to Peter Zeihan.  Perhaps there is a NATO for that?

At least to keep the Atlantic and Antarctic Seas free from the jerks.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-09 11:20:38)


Done.

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#156 2024-02-09 13:42:24

Terraformer
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From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,779
Website

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

I've been reading Without Hot Air by David MacKay. Written in 2006, so quite dated now, and in need of revision. He mentions storing seasonal heat for heat pumps and then drops it from consideration without further discussion, which puts the heating electricity demand in his consumption scenario way above what it might be. But our energy use is still heating and transport dominated, as it was in 2006.

The great thing about building district heat networks is, they're very future proof. If we build nuclear power stations, they'll be very useful, since we'll be electrifying heating and may wish to use the waste heat for buildings as well. If we don't, and we rely on renewable energy, we're still, going to be electrifying heating and the interseasonal storage we could build into these systems with boreholes becomes very important. It's robust intergenerational infrastructure that's very unlikely to become obsolete, at least in any kind of civilisation we would recognise as human. And its about a quarter of our total energy demand. Half our natural gas usage.

This, not windmills or solar or air source heat pumps, should be a flagship green program of British governments (alongside trams and trains and cycle paths). Where would we be if, in 2010, the coalition had committed to spending £20 billion a year on building these networks? We supposedly spend £71 billion a year in "government investment", including £20 billion (not per year) on hydrogen pipe dreams. Spending £20 billion a year on insulating Britain from international gas markets really isn't that much. Especially since we'd see returns on the investment; the treasury would get at least most of the money back I think. Lost decades. Its not even like having a gas boiler makes your house more independent,  it just makes your town more dependent.

The pipes should be insulated from the start to some degree, this is important. And any m
boreholes should not put heat into the top few metres, just in case we decide later to put lots of heat into them in summer.


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#157 2024-02-10 12:10:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

Your arguments have weight Terrafomer, and who would know better for your situation what is of worth?

But I am going to push Liquid Air imports and hot water storage in this post.

I am also interested in a sea bottom cone tank: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 65#p219065 Quote:

lUxOjus.png

So, ignore the part where it is on Mars and might host life and be filled with air.

Instead imagine the structure as a hot water reservoir.  While hot sea water is corrosive, lets suppose we can put fresh water in it.

This could be an anchor for wind, wave, or solar power installations on the surface.  In the North Sea, we might suppose pressures of several bars, so the boiling point of the water would be elevated.  Also, a stainless-steel liner, may hold additional bars of pressure especially if weighted down by brick overlay and also regolith on top of that.  In order to further impede corrosion of the metal tank you may use gland water to keep salt away from the exterior of the tank.
We used gland water to keep abrasive particles away from things moving parts, in the mineral processing.  You would simply pump fresh water under the ceramic overlay and above the metal.

The hot water would be generated by an oversupply of electricity at some period of time, from some electrical generating device.

This then allows you to not waste the capacity of the windmills because your powerlines are exceeded in power transmission.

In the Atlantic Ocean/Pacific Ocean (Scotland is in the Pacific ethnographically), passage up and down the Atlantic could make it possible to accept bids on who could supply liquid air.

And then you would buy the liquid air and react it to the very hot water in the cone tanks, to produce electricity when your renewable energy devices were in an energy trough.  This then allows you to fully utilize the electrical cables to their maximum capacity (With caution, of course).

Your liquid air could come from the Roaring 40's wind or from solar of either side of the Atlantic, or from something like wave power.

Just giving it a chance,

Done


Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-10 12:25:59)


Done.

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#158 2024-02-12 07:22:07

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,282

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

Terraformer wrote:

I've been reading Without Hot Air by David MacKay. Written in 2006, so quite dated now, and in need of revision. He mentions storing seasonal heat for heat pumps and then drops it from consideration without further discussion, which puts the heating electricity demand in his consumption scenario way above what it might be. But our energy use is still heating and transport dominated, as it was in 2006.

The great thing about building district heat networks is, they're very future proof. If we build nuclear power stations, they'll be very useful, since we'll be electrifying heating and may wish to use the waste heat for buildings as well. If we don't, and we rely on renewable energy, we're still, going to be electrifying heating and the interseasonal storage we could build into these systems with boreholes becomes very important. It's robust intergenerational infrastructure that's very unlikely to become obsolete, at least in any kind of civilisation we would recognise as human. And its about a quarter of our total energy demand. Half our natural gas usage.

This, not windmills or solar or air source heat pumps, should be a flagship green program of British governments (alongside trams and trains and cycle paths). Where would we be if, in 2010, the coalition had committed to spending £20 billion a year on building these networks? We supposedly spend £71 billion a year in "government investment", including £20 billion (not per year) on hydrogen pipe dreams. Spending £20 billion a year on insulating Britain from international gas markets really isn't that much. Especially since we'd see returns on the investment; the treasury would get at least most of the money back I think. Lost decades. Its not even like having a gas boiler makes your house more independent,  it just makes your town more dependent.

The pipes should be insulated from the start to some degree, this is important. And any m
boreholes should not put heat into the top few metres, just in case we decide later to put lots of heat into them in summer.

David McKay's book remains an excellent open source resource.  His death was a great loss to the nation.  If I remember correctly, he provides a function that describes temperature vs radius for a borehole used to store heat.

I would agree that district heating is something that the UK should have started investing in a long time ago.  Most UK dwellings are in densely populated towns.  In the absence of natural gas and solid fuels like coal, the only option for heating most of these dwellings is resistance heaters as things stand.  That is expensive way of heating, with electricity costing £0.3/kWh.  Individual heat pumps are not really an option for most of these dwellings.  They just don't have enough space around them.  Everyone is crammed in like sardines.

District heating opens up options for large scale heat pumps, interseasonal heat storage and waste heat utilisation.  The exact solution can vary from place to place.  None of these things are options without a heat distribution network.  It doesn't have to start as city-scale megaprojects.  It can be done incrementally, with a heat pumping station serving an individual street.  When enough independant microsystems are established, we can look at options for joining them together.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-12 07:26:09)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#159 2024-02-12 09:27:41

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,282

Re: Thermal Energy Storage


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#160 2024-02-12 10:08:26

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,420

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

For Calliban re sea water thermal energy .... One of the Knowledge Forum correspondents lives in Alaska. 

There's a lot of coast line up that way.

Things up that way get cold enough so that ice used to freeze over even the salt water.  So my question is...

Would the heat exchange system you've described work for a town along the coast of a northern region?

Are there practical considerations, such as needing to keep buildings to be heated close enough so the hot water is delivered without excessive losses during transit?  If the homes are currently heated by imported oil (by imported I am talking about imported from the interior of Alaska) then I'm presuming that the residents would have to agree to pool their purchases and use the oil for the thermal heat system.

The social aspects of many of the concepts you've published are worth considering.

It seems possible that Europeans may be a bit more willing to consider community solutions than may be the case with other cultures.

In the US, the capitalist system may express some of your ideas in the form of planned communities that cost less to heat over all, so are potentially attractive to folks at the lower/normal end of the income scale.

(th)

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#161 2024-02-12 10:36:59

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,282

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

Alaska doesn't seem to be a good candidate for heat extraction from sea water.  But brine would still be a good heat transfer fluid to use in a heat distribution system, as it resists freezing.  One thing that such a system does require invariably is a high population density.  The per capita cost of installing such a system will be inversely proportional to population density in the area it serves.  I don't know Alaska at all well.  But it strikes me as being a place where most people live in detached residences with a lot of distance between neighbours.  If that is accurate, district heating might not be the best approach.

If the average residence has plenty of space around it, there are options for storing heat for an individual household within the ground.  If heat can be stored down a deep well at temperatures of 10-20°C, say, then the well water can provide the cold source for a house heatpump.  I notice as well that Alaska has good wind energy resources:
https://globalwindatlas.info/en

How about wind driven heat pumps?  A small mechanical wind machine could be coupled to a positive displacement compressor.

Some 10-20m beneath the land surface at any location on Earth, the temperature of the ground will be constant, as the effect of air temperature fluctuations are dampened by the thermal inertia of the ground above.  If a well is dug 30m deep, then it should be possible to extract heat from the well in winter and replace it in summer.  Temperatures in Anchorage are above 15°C for 3 months of the year.
https://www.climatestotravel.com/climat … /anchorage

Maybe a system of near surface pipes can harvest summer heat during those 3 months and dump the heat into the well?

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-12 10:52:02)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#162 2024-02-12 13:56:59

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,420

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

For Calliban re Alaska and Thermal Energy Storage...

My purpose here is ** not ** disagreement, or anything even remotely of the sort.

You said (in Post #161) that:

Alaska doesn't seem to be a good candidate for heat extraction from sea water.

I am surprised ... I have no way of knowing one way or the other, so am depending upon you to clarify what appear to be two ways of looking at potential sites for this technology.

In an earlier post, you spoke of a 5 degree difference of inflowing water compared to what is returned to the ocean.

I'll go look for the citation and hopefully bring it back to this post.

I would have thought that if water that has come all the way from the equator (as all water in Alaska surely does) it would contain thermal energy collected along the way, and that Alaska residents could harvest without difficulty.

However, one of the many benefits of participation in this forum is the learning process, so one way or the other, that is about to happen.

*** a bit later ... the post I remembered was linked from this topic to another... here it is in entirety:

Calliban wrote:

TH, if the town is located on the coast, then a fairly minimal system could be provided using piped sea water.  The temperature of sea water varies by <10°C throughout the year.
https://www.seatemperature.org/europe/united-kingdom/

I would suggest pumped sea water through a concrete pipe running beneath main streets in the town.  Branching roads would be served by heat pumping stations, which would draw heat out of the flowing sea water and heat piped water to maybe 60°C.  Lets say we have a 1m diameter pipe with water flowing through it at 3m/s.  Initial temperature is 10°C upon entering the town and heat withdrawal reduces this to 5°C upon exit.  How much heat is available?

Q = [0.25 x Pi x D^2] x 3 x 1000 x 4200 x 5 = 49,480,000W.  That is enough to heat roughly 10,000 detatched houses at peak winter heat demand.

We could supplement this further by drawing on heat stored in boreholes to preheat and reheat the water main.  This doesn't need to be high heat.  Temperatures between 10-20°C would be quite adequate.

Further inland, the system would be similar.  But in this case, we are relying entirely on heat that the piped water is drawing out of the ground.

If we assume a cokd temperature of 10°C (283K) and a hot temperature of 60°C (333K), the ideal COP of a heat pump would be:

COP = Tc/(Th - Tc) = 283/50 = 5.66.

If we can achieve 2/3 of the Carnot efficiency, then this system will heat the town using less than one third of the electrical energy used by resistance heaters.  If the town can access waste heat with a temperature of 30°C, then the electricity needed by the heat pumps can be roughly halved again.


So! the paragraph I remembered was this one:

I would suggest pumped sea water through a concrete pipe running beneath main streets in the town.  Branching roads would be served by heat pumping stations, which would draw heat out of the flowing sea water and heat piped water to maybe 60°C.  Lets say we have a 1m diameter pipe with water flowing through it at 3m/s.  Initial temperature is 10°C upon entering the town and heat withdrawal reduces this to 5°C upon exit.  How much heat is available?

I can ask my correspondent in Alaska to take readings of the temperature of the nearby ocean (more accurately the waterway between islands) and report back.  It is possible the State of Alaska already has weather reading sensors around the state, and that data may be available from those.

As a related concern .... electricity will be required to move all this water, and to pull thermal energy out by using heat pumps.  The question that I'm sure will occur to the reader is how the electricity used to perform all that processing compares to just heating the town with electric heaters.

(th)

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#163 2024-02-12 17:12:38

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,282

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

TH, maybe it is practical after all.  Sea temperatures around Alaska are warmer than I thought they would be.
https://www.seatemperature.org/north-am … es/alaska/

If we are using a salt water main as a heat source for multiple heat pumps, then warmer temperatures allow a better COP.  But 5.9°C is still comfortably above freezing point.  A heat pump drawing energy from a cold source at 0°C and pumping heat at 60°C, would have an ideal COP of 4.55.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-12 17:18:54)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#164 2024-02-12 19:02:55

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,420

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

For Calliban re #163...

Thanks for your reply with the link to temperatures around/near Alaska.

I forwarded a link to post #163 to our correspondent there.

This is a community that lives on fishing and other natural resources, so I'm guessing the up-front costs will prove insurmountable, but we'll see.

(th)

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#165 2024-02-13 07:53:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,598

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

Solar water heaters were cool in 1980s. They could be again.

BB1icYYO.img?w=768&h=512&m=6

The device, essentially a glass box with metal water pipes running through it, converted sunlight into hot water. By trapping solar energy like a greenhouse, it heated the water to a scorching 180 degrees Fahrenheit. It furnished much of the hot water for a family of four.
Water in these solar collectors routinely reaches temperatures around 180 degrees Fahrenheit and can soar as high 400, before being mixed and stored in a standard water heater tank.

Nearly 20 percent of an average home’s energy is used to heat water, and nearly 50 percent globally, according to MIT. By adopting solar water heaters, the average household can keep 2 tons of carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, the equivalent of not driving your car for four months, estimates the Environmental Protection Agency.

https://energy.mit.edu/wp-content/uploa … 015-04.pdf

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#166 2024-02-13 18:01:56

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,282

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

If solar thermal panels can be used to preheat the water that enters an electrically heated hot water tank, then they are useful all year round.  A well integrated system would make use of waste heat from refrigeration also.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-13 18:03:36)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#167 2024-02-14 17:49:05

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,598

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

You also can use evacuated-tube collectors.
how-evac-tubes-work.jpg

evacuated-tubeVHP20-600x600.jpg

for cold areas you design a mixture of 30% propylene glycol and 70% water is often used as insurance against catastrophic system failure.
Drainback Solar Thermal System Design

drainback_solar_thermal_system_layout.JPG

https://www.solarhotwater-systems.com/u … ck-design/

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#168 2024-02-15 18:53:38

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,598

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

Calliban wrote:

On Mars, there are plenty of locations where daytime soil temperature exceeds 0°C.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate … emperature

If we can gather that heat using flat plate collectors, it could be stored by melting ice contained in tanks.  The latent heat of melting of ice is 334KJ/kg.K.  That means that 1m3 of water will store some 93kWh of heat through phase change.  The tank could contain a heat exchanger coil for a heat pump.  A heat pump supplying heat at 30°C from a cold source at 0°C, will have a theoretical COP of 9.1.  The lower the temperature rise the better the COP.  If the pump supplies heat at a temperature of 20°C, the theoretical COP will be 13.65.  When we build structures on Mars, we should embed plastic water pipes within the floors and walls.  By doing that, all surfaces can be turned into heat transfer surfaces and the water we use to heat spaces can be supplied at close to the desired air temperature.  Than way, we get the most heating value out of each unit of power supplied to the heat pump.

Heat pumps could be used at higher and lower lattitudes where temperatures are lower.  But COP declines rapidly.  If daytime temperatures are -20°C and we are supplying heat at 20°C, the COP can be calculated accordingly:

COP = Tc/(Th-Tc) = 253/40 = 6.33

This tells us that a heat pump drawing heat from a -20°C cold side will need twice as much mechanical energy as a heat pump drawing from a 0°C source.

If the base is equipped with a nuclear power source producing waste heat at a temperature of 30°C, we might use this for heating without need for heat pumps at all.  But to heat using water at such low temperature, heat transfer surfaces must be large.  Which is why I think Martian buildings should have heating pipes in their walls and floors.

Calliban wrote:

On Mars, fine regolith has about the same thermal conductivity as rockwool on Earth.  This makes it a very good thermal insulator.  Our flat plate solar collector could be an area of flat ground that has been excavated to a depth of 6" and then filled with sieved regolith.  A plastic hose pipe would be coiled in rows on top of the regolith and then covered with a thin layer of flat rocks.  These will absorb heat and conduct it into the pipe.  The pipe would contain methanol.  This has a low vapour pressure at 0-20°C, and a low freezing point of -97°C.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

This means that close to the equator, even the cold Martian night will not be sufficient to freeze it.  During the day, the methanol temperature will rise above freezing.  Natural convection will cause it to rise into coils within the ice tank.  This allows the ice tank to gather heat by natural convection, without any moving parts.  The ice tank can be made from compacted soil or adobe bricks, with a polymer membrane to contain the liquid.  The bottom of the tank will be cone shaped.  As water freezes and ice expands, the ice is pushed upward, rather than exerting pressure on the walls of the tank.


Nice design

Calliban wrote:

Top down view:
20240214-181227.jpg

Cross section of collector:
20240214-181337.jpg

The heat storage tank:
20240214-181416.jpg

Warm methanol flows up the header pipe to the top of the tank and then descends through the coiled pipe embedded within the tank walls, teansfering heat into the tank melting the ice.  Cold methanol then returns to the collector panels.  The heat pump cold side heat exchanger is at the bottom of the tank.  This withdrawns heat at 0°C.

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#169 2024-02-15 18:56:32

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,598

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

This even works on earth as cool in summer as well as for soil/sand storage for later use.

This is all within the realm of what my home needs.

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#170 2024-02-19 07:49:14

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,420

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

In a new topic Terraformer showed us a report on maritime application of thermal energy storage.

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10702

What is different about the report (from my perspective) is that for the first time, I have seen the idea of combining the two sides of the thermal energy storage concept in the same (hypothetical) system.

In the case of the maritime application, liquefied air is carried in an insulated tank, and a thermal energy supply is carried in another tank. The two are matched so that a supply of pressurized air is available to power an air motor or other pneumatic devices.

I would like to see this concept developed for the consumer market.  The challenge I am offering our members is to design a practical energy storage system able to deliver 20 amps at 120 VAC for an hour in a mobile cart that can be transported to a job site.

A battery system able to provide that amount of stored energy is available in 2024 for ...

KILOVAULT
2.4 kWh KiloVault HLX+ Lithium LFP Solar Battery 12V
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SKU:KLV2400HLXPLUSMPN:KLV2400HLXPLUSAVAILABILITY:SHIPS 1 - 2 WEEKSSHIPPING:$250.00 (Fixed Shipping Cost)
$1,995.00

The battery above would need to be combined with a converter ....

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3000 WATT PURE SINE POWER INVERTER 12 VDC to 120 VAC ETL LISTED
$567.00 $528.00
13 in stock (can be backordered)

Subtotal $528.00

The AIMS Power pure sine inverter is capable of producing 3000 watts of clean power ideal for running your sensitive electronics. Great for use in vehicles, boats, camping and emergencies where back up power is needed. The inverter features dual outlets, along with a USB outlet and a direct connect terminal block for hard wiring the inverter’s full capacity. An optional wired remote is available for this unit, AIMS Power part number REMOTEHF.

The package cost is about $2500 at this point. A complete system would include a mobile platform for the energy storage system, suitable to move the system on a reasonably flat solid surface with just one worker.

The web site offering the Inverter also carries miscellaneous items such as cables.

I think a reasonable outlay for a complete system would be $3000.

I'd like to see a thermal storage energy supply system come in under that level.

The energy supply system will need a LOX tank, a hot supply tank, an air motor and control electronics, and the same mobile platform.

Hopefully one or more NewMars members are able to show a design for a thermal energy storage system able to function at this level for under $3000 USD.

(th)

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#171 2024-02-22 20:41:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,598

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

The New Hot Climate Investment Is Heat Itself

BlackRock, Saudi Aramco and Rio Tinto headline a group of financiers pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into startups making heat batteries. Also called thermal batteries, they use renewable energy to heat up blocks, rocks or molten salt. That heat is released on demand to power industrial processes.

Antora uses carbon blocks that glow red like a toaster coil or an electric stove when heated up. Antora’s batteries are unusual because heat is transferred using the light from the hot blocks, eliminating the need for air or fluid to transfer energy and making the product cheaper.

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#172 2024-02-23 04:36:59

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,282

Re: Thermal Energy Storage

SpaceNut wrote:

The New Hot Climate Investment Is Heat Itself

BlackRock, Saudi Aramco and Rio Tinto headline a group of financiers pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into startups making heat batteries. Also called thermal batteries, they use renewable energy to heat up blocks, rocks or molten salt. That heat is released on demand to power industrial processes.

Antora uses carbon blocks that glow red like a toaster coil or an electric stove when heated up. Antora’s batteries are unusual because heat is transferred using the light from the hot blocks, eliminating the need for air or fluid to transfer energy and making the product cheaper.

Interesting.  As graphite is electrically conducting, the blocks could be heated using induction coils.  This wouod eliminate the need for high temperature heating elements that have finite life.  High temperature heat has plenty of direct applications, which the article makes clear.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-23 04:46:03)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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