Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

Calliban · 2024-01-26 05:19:46

As this thread is on the terraforming board, I thought it would interesting to determine if certain small bodies have enough gravity to balance the pressure of a breathable atmosphere created in cavities in their interiors. This site provides a neat formula for calculating pressure vs depth within bodies of uniform density.
https://cseligman.com/text/planets/integration.htm

I decided to run the numbers for Phobos and Eros, using their mean radii as the input for R and taking r = 0, i.e. calculating the static pressure at their centres. The answers I got were 60.005KPa for Phobos and 70.815KPa for Eros. On both of these bodies, there is enough static pressure close to their centres to allow tunnels to be pressurised with breathable air. So caves an tunnels could be terraformed, so to speak. For a stony asteroid, a mean radius greater than about 8km allows a breathable pressure close to the centre. For a density close to water, mean radius must exceed 11km. There are plenty of main belt asteroids that meet that criterion and a huge abundance of icy outer solar system bodies.

Eros and Phobos are both practically interesting. Eros has about the right orbit to make it interesting as an Earth-Mars cycler. Phobos is way station for the Earth-Mars transit.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-01-26 05:22:16)

Void · 2024-01-26 05:41:55

I want to thank you Calliban for answering questions that I cannot myself answer, and really it is valuable that you ask questions that I have not thought of.

Thanks!

Done

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-26 10:23:28

In this work session with ChatGPT4, we asked DALL-E to adjust the drawing of a mining ring, given feedback from Calliban.

Here is the new Prompt:

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt
Create a 2D engineering drawing on engineering paper with a 40x40 grid. In the center, a 12-square diameter asteroid with an irregular edge. Around it, an 18-square diameter girder ring, but only half a grid square thick. At each hour point on the ring (like a clock), place a simple, solid square. The drawing should be austere, with no additional elements like robot arms, chutes, or collection buckets. The scene is a top view, in an orthographic projection, focusing on the functionality of the design with no ornamentation.

The link to the image will be added here when it is ready:

Here is a link to the file that contains the image:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-DQDIx … sp=sharing

Notes on this version:

DALL-E ignored the request for 2D, which actually seems advantageous, because the depth(width) of the ring can be deduced from DALL-E's guess as to what would be appropriate. it removed a lot of the clutter this time, but there are still little decorations scattered about. DALL-E appears to abhor empty space.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-26 13:05:09

In this work session, ChatGPT4 and I tried to persuade DALL-E to add collection bags at clock points 12, 3, 6 and 9. DALL-E became more and more creative, and at one point stopped showing the ring as circular but turned it into a square. I just realized that I must have inadvertently caused that, by asking for the collection bags to be square. In any case, we started over with a simple ring on graph paper, and built back up to the reasonable figure to be posted below.

Here is the prompt that ChatGPT prepared for this latest image:

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt
Create a 2 Dimensional engineering drawing on engineering paper with a 40x40 grid. The grid is to fill the image completely. In the center, a 12-square diameter asteroid with an irregular edge. Around it, an 18-square diameter girder ring, but only half a grid square thick. At each hour point on the ring (like a clock), place a simple, solid square. The drawing should be austere, with no additional elements like robot arms, chutes, or collection buckets. The scene is a top view, in an orthographic projection, focusing on the functionality of the design with no ornamentation.

The figure will go here when it is ready:

Notes about this image. The image was created with symmetry, without a specific request. The curious objects at 12, 3, 6 and 9 O'Clock might become collection points for material from the asteroid, if we could figure out how to ask for that without breaking everything else.

Another way of approaching this might be to separate the robot arms and the collection systems from the ring drawing.

I note that while Calliban's original drawing had the robot arms away from the collection chutes, it is not unreasonable to integrate the robot arms with the chute and collection subsystems. That way the ring would have only four activity points. To maintain stability of the rotating ring, material needs to be delivered to the collection bags at the same rate. The principles at work here are comparable to those that will be in play in Large Ship.

(th)

Void · 2024-01-26 20:50:35

I support your efforts here they are of interest. But small worlds will be of many types, so many solutions may apply. A ring world around a world is interesting in itself. If it can help in mining a world I like that. If you wish to please continue it is good.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-26 20:51:26)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-26 21:22:43

For Void re #305

Thank you for your support of Calliban's idea for a ring shaped harvester!

This is Calliban's topic, so I'm hoping he would appreciate suggestions, but praise goes a long way!

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-27 08:27:41

Today's work session attempted to introduce articulated robot arms and a cloth bag material collection system. The request was too much for DALL-E, but I decided to show the result anyway. The idea of using plungers that reach into the asteroid from the ring is similar to what NASA actually did in it's encounter with Bennu.

Here is the prompt, formatted for display by ChatGPT4:

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt
Create a 2 Dimensional engineering drawing on engineering paper with a 40x40 grid. The grid fills the image completely. In the center, a 12-square diameter asteroid with an irregular edge. Surrounding it, an 18-square diameter girder ring, only half a grid square thick. This is an orthographic projection focusing on functionality with no ornamentation. At 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock on the ring, place material collection machines. Do not put anything at points other than 12, 3, 6, and 9. Each collection point has a thin robot arm with two sections and a jaw at the tip, bending at the center joint, reaching in from the ring toward the asteroid. Securely attached to the base of each robot arm, outside the ring, is a cloth bag, partially filled and irregular in shape, to hold collected material. There are no loose objects or decorations, only functional parts are shown.

The link to the file will go here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-JNH74 … sp=sharing

The link to the image will go here:

Notes on the image: This image is similar to one created earlier by DALL-E. The major progress is making the ring thinner, as Calliban requested. The request for articulated robot arms was ignored by DALL-E but the plungers it used again may be worth considering for the actual ring. They have the advantage of simplicity. If plungers are advanced into the asteroid simultaneously from opposite sides of the ring, then symmetry of action and mass distribution could be preserved.

DALL-E ignored the request to show just four collection systems, but it contented itself with the hour positions of the clock, and human builders could implement a many or as few plungers as they might consider appropriate, as long as they take care to maintain balance.

A consideration is that material collection systems could be free-flying systems that dock to the plungers and collect whatever is gathered by the plungers. The advantage is that these free flying systems could then make their way to a processing facility which could be in the Earth/Moon system or elsewhere.

Follow up a while later ... After thinking about DALL-E's "contribution" (by ignoring the robot arm request), I see a possible benefit to the image as rendered.

DALL-E is showing a number of posts poking into the asteroid. That could actually be a useful technique. If the prods are delivered into the rubble pile gently from all directions simultaneously, they would assist in giving the ring the same rotation as the rubble pile. DALL-E has shown nubs were robot arms could be mounted, away from the post locations. Collected material could be delivered to the major post locations for transport to collection bags or containers outside the ring.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-27 15:06:48

This is a follow up on Post #307 ...

Taking into account that DALL-E does pretty much what it wants, I decided to give it's head and asked for poles to pin the asteroid inside the ring. The result came back with the requested poles, but it includes what sure ** look ** like harvesting apparatus. I will take the liberty of imagining Void's "lamprey" functionality inside the harvesting tubes... thousands of little "teeth" that move the contents of the asteroid up the gullet of the harvesting tube into the waiting catch bucket. All this has to be imagined, because DALL-E would go crazy if it were asked to show anything like that.

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt
Create a 2 Dimensional engineering drawing on engineering paper with a 40x40 grid. The grid fills the image completely. In the center, a 12-square diameter asteroid with an irregular edge. Surrounding it, an 18-square diameter girder ring, only half a grid square thick. This is an orthographic projection focusing on functionality with no ornamentation. At 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock on the ring, place poles that project from the ring into the asteroid to hold it in place. Please insure bilateral symmetry.

The prompt above was prepared by ChatGPT4 under supervision of tahanson43206.

The link to the image will go here:

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-28 08:17:32

We have had some success creating an image that captures some of Calliban's vision for a ring around an asteroid. It was more than DALL-E can handle to try to add in robot arms to harvest the asteroid material. Today's work session with ChatGPT4 explored the possibility that DALL-E might be able to show a robot arm able to pick a bunch of grapes. I would like to point out that ChatGPT4 came up with the idea of little fingers.

Here is the description of an 'end effector' from Wikipedia:

An end effector is the device at the end of a robotic arm, designed to interact with the environment. The exact nature of this device depends on the application of the robot. In the strict definition, which originates from serial robotic manipulators, the end effector means the last link (or end) of the robot.
Robot end effector - Wikipedia

Here is the prompt:

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt
Visualize a delicate robot arm in a grape field, designed for gentle harvesting. The robot's arm extends towards bunches of grapes on a vine. The robot is equipped with a soft-grasping mechanism, which are delicate wire strainers designed to fully enclose the grapes without damaging them. These strainers gently surround and secure the grapes, ensuring careful handling and no harm to the fruit. The scene captures the robot amidst the grapevines, focusing on its precise and delicate approach to harvesting grapes.

The link to the file will go here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-Pg1Bb … sp=sharing

The link to the image will go here:

(th)

Void · 2024-01-28 09:34:53

Your efforts can be encouraged, I feel.

Done

Void · 2024-01-28 10:04:23

I believe that Calliban was the first person who mentioned a hoop surrounding an asteroid.

Later this showed up: https://phys.org/news/2022-12-rubble-pi … itats.html

It is not the same.

I want to suggest that another possibility may exist that is a combination of the two.

A balloon and gondola setup, where the asteroid is in a net and its spin is imparted to a gondola on a space elevator end where artificial gravity can occur. It is derived from Callibans work and also the Carbon net of the other people.

This would allow you to start with a small crew in the gondola or humans and perhaps robots, and your hand/arm could collect materials up to the gondola to process, then as some of the materials might be turned into structure then some of that structure could be built back to be a proper shell for the asteroid.

I know I am intruding, but I think this is in the family of things discussed here. If the Carbon nanotube net can be made and it is strong enough then a ship could bring it out there and deploy it, and then the ship could be the start of the gondola.

It really is still a hoop, it is just that you have attached the asteroid to one edge of it.

I have I am not pushing too hard on things here.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-28 10:15:30)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-28 13:01:38

For Void Re #311

Your suggestion seems (to me at least) to have a lot going for it.

For all... Today's work session with ChatGPT4 and DALL-E attempted to show a robot collecting material from the asteroid. DALL-E went far afield during this session, but eventually ChatGPT4 and I were able to bring it back closer to what I had in mind to start. DALL-E does not seem to know what a whisk broom might be, and we had a heck of a time convincing it there is something called a dust pan. I decided to keep the image to be shown below, because it captures much of Calliban's idea.

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt
Visualize a small robot with two arms in a plain room, leaning forward to reach the floor with a small whisk broom in its right hand and a small handheld dustpan in its left hand. The robot is actively using these tools to clean up a spill of coal chunks on the floor. An upright empty bucket is placed on the floor nearby, ready to receive the swept-up coal. The scene captures the robot in the act of cleaning up the coal spill, emphasizing the practical use of the small whisk broom and small dustpan in a coordinated cleaning action.

Link to image goes here:

(th)

Calliban · 2024-01-29 08:04:51

tahanson43206 wrote:

This is a follow up on Post #307 ...
Taking into account that DALL-E does pretty much what it wants, I decided to give it's head and asked for poles to pin the asteroid inside the ring. The result came back with the requested poles, but it includes what sure ** look ** like harvesting apparatus. I will take the liberty of imagining Void's "lamprey" functionality inside the harvesting tubes... thousands of little "teeth" that move the contents of the asteroid up the gullet of the harvesting tube into the waiting catch bucket. All this has to be imagined, because DALL-E would go crazy if it were asked to show anything like that.
(th)

TH, one way the lamprey idea could work is for the head of the device to contain rotating wire brushes. These would pick up dust and loose material from the surface and fling it up a tube, allowing it to be collected in a bag. Something like this:

The flexible hood would be pushed against the asteroid surface, allow the brush to come into contact with the loose regolith. The brush imparts momentum, pushing material against the side of the hood, from which it is deflected up the tube. Internal rotating brushes then impact additional momentum. At the end of the tube, we would have some kind of bag, into which the material would collect. This idea only works for loose material beneath a certain size range. We couldn't hoover up boulders using this. But dust and rocks up to several inches in diameter would work.

The brush would obviously be a wear surface, so would need changing on a periodic basis. For larger rocks that won't fit up the tube, we would need manipulators with a some kind of mechanical grab. The chutes into which boulders are dropped, could also contain rotary brushes pushing material down the tube. This avoids having to rely on meagre gravity to move materials.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-01-29 08:27:32)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-29 08:23:38

For Calliban re #313

Thank you for supporting Void's idea in the context of the asteroid harvesting system.

I'll take a chance (later today) and ask ChatGPT4 to ask DALL-E to show us a lamprey consuming material from the surface of an asteroid while attached to a ring that encircles the asteroid. I would be astonished if anything useful comes from ** that ** request, but whatever comes from the experiment should be interesting.

As a side note, in last night's Google Meeting and I asked ChatGPT4 to ask DALL-E to create images of kbd512's idea for a vertical wind device that would pump water to a shed. We discovered that DALL-E seems to have a bias toward horizontal axis wind devices. This is understandable, because the training data would have included horizontal axis wind turbines in far greater numbers than vertical, if there are any vertical ones at all, which is doubtful.

Bias like that showed up in another context recently. ChatGPT4 and I were attempting to persuade DALL-E to show a robot with a whisk broom in one hand, and a dust pan in the other, but DALL-E apparently has a "mental block" about brooms. It persisted in showing a long handled broom. We finally got it to show a dust pan.

I'll try the lamprey idea today, and am looking forward to seeing the result. A lamprey is not something I choose to think about, and we wouldn't be doing so were it not for Void's imagination, but your encouragement is added to Void's enthusiasm to drive this investigation.

(th)

Void · 2024-01-29 11:12:31

I am liking what is happening here. I am the Balloon and Moon guy, or Balloon and Gondola, or World and gondola.

I am going to take a branch of this to another topic and leave you to formulate what you will, but I want to say that in my concept you would start with the Balloon and Gondola version I have suggested.

Actually, a small asteroid in a net, with a gondola spinning around it, but then the next moves would be to expand the gondola and shell in the asteroid.

The gondola expansion could then be expanded into a ring. A ring like Callibans.

As for the Lamprey, we could apply the K.I.S.S. principle to it. My version had brushes and propellers, and a spinning flask.

But Callibans idea of brushes and a bag looks pretty good. I would think to consider a parrot like beak that can encompass the Brushes, and the beak should be able to open more than 180 degrees to allow the brushes to contact the asteroid surface. As for the sack, perhaps that would be a cinch sack so that you would fill up bags with stuff. Early on then those bags could be used to improve radiation protection once thay are filled. They might be placed on the outside of the gondola.

I want to move my part of the discussion after this over to "Index» Terraformation» Jupiters Realms". I want to consider it for the Jupiter Trojan and Greek asteroids in particular as their are a lot of them and they are mosely more small and perhaps many of them would be suitable to this process.

Done

https://movies.stackexchange.com/questi … terstellar
Image Quote:

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-29 11:22:00)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-29 11:39:29

For Void .... re Post #315....

Your suggestion of a parrot like beak for the machine to collect material from an asteroid is most helpful.

I've been unsuccessful so far in persuading ChatGPT4 to persuade DALL-E to create an image that matches up with more than a part of Calliban's vision as laid out in his engineering drawing earlier in this topic.

I am confident that DALL-E will know what a parrot beak is, and perhaps it will know what a pelican beak is. I like the pelican beak variation because the collection bag is "built" right into the gathering system.

if you decide to enlist DALL-E to give additional emphasis to some of your creative ideas, I am reasonably sure the NewMars audience will appreciate whatever results. All I can guarantee is that whatever you ask of DALL-E, it will do something different.

(th)

Void · 2024-01-29 12:14:18

Could be amusing, But just now I have quite a lot on my plate, but I come here anyway to unload things out of my heat.

Done

Calliban · 2024-01-29 14:21:09

As per Void's suggestion, some kind of net or balloon surrounding the asteroid is a good idea. Without it, as soon as mining starts, much of the asteroid would end up being lost to space as the surface is disturbed by mining. Escape velocity for a 50-500m diameter asteroid is going to be miniscule. And anything lost to space or even worse trapped in orbit of the asteroid, is a hazard to navigation. So wrapping it somehow is a good idea. Maybe somekind of polymer bag within a carbon fibre net?

If we can tighten the net gradually as the asteroid is mined, we could squeeze material out like a tube of toothpaste. This might provide another way of extracting the material. The main problem I can see is that any large rocks could clog up the extraction tube. Using a fixed bag / balloon with a gap between it and the surface, we could use the lamprey tubes to extract small diameter rocks and dust and work around any troublesome rocks that might clog the tube. Anything that is disturbed is trapped by the bag / balloon and will eventually settle by gravity.

So I think the ring idea should be adjusted. Firstly, we want to include lamprey tubes with excavating rotating brushes. Secondly, within the ring we want a bag or balloon, to catch any material that is driven off the surface. In a rubble asteroid with very little cohesion between particles, as material is removed, gravity should continuously relax the pile back into a spherical shape. Any large rocks should sink to the centre due to their higher effective density.

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-29 14:44:40

ChatGPT4 gave Void's parrot idea to DALL-E, and the result is surprising (as usual). Here is the prompt:

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt
Visualize a parrot-shaped robot in a plain room, focusing on cleaning up a spill of coal chunks on the floor. The robot parrot is using its beak to grab coal chunks of various sizes and placing them into an empty bucket nearby. The scene captures the parrot robot in action, emphasizing its unique design and the practical task of using its beak to pick up and transfer the coal into the bucket.

I'll put the link to the image here.

(th)

Void · 2024-01-29 21:27:37

That's a knee slapper.

Done

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-30 08:53:58

For Void re #320

Thanks for your encouragement for ChatGPT4 and DALL-E !!!

Today's work session took your sea lamprey idea as a starting point.

The first image reminded me of a scene from the famous booik/movie "Dune".... the second image reminded me of a puffer fish.

The third comes reasonably close. The ocean shows up because ChatGPT4 and I were trying to explain what a lamprey look like.

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt
Visualize a small robot designed like a sea lamprey, fastened to a large asteroid, similar to how a lamprey would attach to a whale on Earth. The robot lamprey is significantly smaller compared to the asteroid. The scene captures the lamprey-like robot securely latched onto the asteroid's surface, actively collecting material from it. Emphasize the size difference between the small robot and the large asteroid to illustrate the scale of their interaction.

Link to source file goes here:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-QUO6Ldf1f6-2ql3CxbZ12rPiJs8zAJZ/view?usp=sharing

Link to image goes here:

(th)

Calliban · 2024-01-30 09:32:23

TH, that is a good rendering. The lamprey would of course need to be attached to the ring, because it will need to exert a force of the asteroid surface to mine it and the asteroid will exert a reaction force. This force can be sustained by the slight displacement between the centre of mass of the ring and centre of gravity of the asteroid core. This will exert a restoring force to the ring, which the lamprey can push against. Another possibility is to brace the ring against the asteroid in multiple points around the equator. But the problem here is that the surface of rubble pile asteroids appear to behave like liquids. They cannot sustain shear stress, so it is difficult to push against them. This was my reason for suggesting the ring idea, which can be braced against gravity. But there may be other options that I have not considered. Maybe we can attach floats to the surface of the asteroid and use their bouyancy in the fluid-like regolith to provide a reaction force?

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-30 11:58:39

For Calliban, thank you for your words of praise. I'll pass them along to ChatGPT4. I don't think DALL-E is smart enough to appreciate them, but CH4 most definitely ** does ** respond to praise.

Your encouragement is most timely. I finished morning chores and sat down at a workstation to open a new session with CH4. I had vague ideas in mind of trying to advance to the very idea you requested, to secure the lamprey to the ring. The problem that CH4 and I have is that DALL-E can easily be overwhelmed when we ask for too much. It was all we could do to persuade it to show the ring around an asteroid. In the final version of that series, we were able to show poles pinning the asteroid from four directions, so that the ring is as firmly "grounded" as the rubble pile will allow. Each rubble pile is going to be different, so the poles need to be long enough to reach to the center of the asteroid, if no resistance is met on the way in.

Once the ring is secure (or as secure as the circumstances allow) then the mining equipment can be deployed from under the ring, as you showed in your original engineering drawing.

For those who might be interested in the complications of this situation...

Calliban is an engineer who knows precisely what he wants, as shown with a ** real ** engineering drawing.

I am an intermediary between ChatGPT4 and Calliban.

ChatGPT4 is an intermediary between me and DALL-E.

DALL-E is a semi-intelligent drawing program that does pretty much what it wants.

In confronting the challenge of this set of conditions, it occurred to me that DALL-E might understand the concept of an "inset".

The kind of "inset" that I am thinking about often shows up in humanly prepared drawings, showing a blow up (or expanded view) of a detail of a larger drawing. I am thinking of asking CH4 to ask DALL-E to create an inset showing ** just ** the mounting of the robot lamprey on the inside surface of the ring. We already have an image of the head of the lamprey pressed against the surface of the asteroid.

So! Off to the mines !!!

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-30 12:52:01

This work session attempted to persuade DALL-E to show an inset with detail of mounting of the base of a lamprey on a ring around an asteroid. Here is ChatGPT4's prompt:

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt
Create an image with an inset to show specific details. The larger picture features an asteroid inside a simple, austere ring, representing an asteroid mining operation. Attached to the inside of the ring is a single lamprey-like robot, with its head on the asteroid, actively collecting material. The inset focuses on the base of the lamprey robot, showing how it is secured to the inside of the ring. The image and inset should be clear and uncluttered, emphasizing the practical design of the robot and its attachment to the ring for mining purposes.

Link to the image goes here:

Notes on image: DALL-E added the second hose on it's own. I recognize this as a useful feature. Gas can be fed through the smaller tube, and delivered into the space under the head of the lamprey. Material stirred up by the fed gas can flow up the larger tube to a collection facility of some kind. The collection facility would need to be able to salvage the gas so it can be reused. This might be done by compressing the rubble to squeeze out any gas before the squeezed rubble is delivered to a waiting transport.

In this case, the inset shows up but the main picture is clear enough.

Reminder: I asked CH4 NOT to include the poles to pin the asteroid, because we have learned to avoid overwhelming DALL-E.

We have images showing the poles to pin the asteroid earlier in this series.

(th)

Calliban · 2024-01-30 17:20:52

I did wonder about using a carrier gas. The problem is that the lamprey tubes are unlikely to form a gas tight seal with the surface of the asteroid. And any pressure exerted would tend to blow a hole in the surface. The surface of rubble pile asteroids actually behaves like a liquid when disturbed, because cohesion between particles is so low. Carrier gases are good way of transporting mined material in sealed systems, especially in low gravity. This arrangement works better in space than it does on Earth.

Tubes filled with carrier gas may be a good method of transporting mined material from the receipt facility on the ring to the ore processing facility. We could build such a facility over the pole of the asteroid. Putting it there removes any problems with gyroscopic forces induced by rotation. Milling machines need gravity. Ore smelting needs gravity to seperate liquid metals from the bulk ores. Casting requires gravity.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-01-30 17:23:48)

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