Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

Void · 2024-01-25 13:37:54

In compliance with a suggestion, I create this topic.

Only room for one thing at a time elsewhere, so I will work here.

Asteroids and things like asteroids are not all alike, so it should be expected that various methods may be developed.

I guess I might call what I have in mind just now a Lamprey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamprey

Sort of a jawless fish, some consider primitive as it resembles early fish.

As it happens Phobos and Deimos resemble asteroids we know of, not the larger ones, but perhaps medium to small sizes.

Asteroids may or may not be magnetic. Probably they have a little magnetic material in them. If so or not also magnetics may be able to help run the device I have in mind. It will be a little better if the object does have magnetic materials in it. If not, then a magnetic field may still be able to be pushed into the object by the solar wind in many cases.

To some degree the game would be to push the devices mouth to bump the surface of the object, perturbing materials.

The mouth may have propellers in it, or at least one. The body of the "Lamprey" would also rotate. For now, I am not going to obsess about gyroscopic effects. Methods would be added to reduce or eliminate any danger of uncontrolled tumble.

It seems likely to me that the fines of the asteroid/moon will be on the surface more and in the interior may be larger chunks which this device would have trouble working with.

Like a Lamprey rakes or rasps could perturb the materials. As they reach the propeller(s) they would be pushed into the body of the device. The device itself spinning would catch them to its surface with artificial gravitation.

The device may pogo off of the surface and come back again and again, until deemed full enough.

Then by some propulsive means it would move to a processing facility. Its spin might be increased so that robots put inside of it could begin processing in sufficient synthetic gravity field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
Quote:

Infrared spectra show that it has carbon-rich material found in carbonaceous chondrites, and its composition shows similarities to that of Mars' surface.[33] Phobos's density is too low to be solid rock, and it is known to have significant porosity.[34][35][36] These results led to the suggestion that Phobos might contain a substantial reservoir of ice. Spectral observations indicate that the surface regolith layer lacks hydration,[37][38] but ice below the regolith is not ruled out.[39][40]

Quote:

Recent images from Mars Global Surveyor indicate that Phobos is covered with a layer of fine-grained regolith at least 100 meters thick; it is hypothesized to have been created by impacts from other bodies, but it is not known how the material stuck to an object with almost no gravity.[48]

So, there may be materials of a diverse mixture and significant volume, which may be of value and might be accessable by the means mentioned in this post.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-25 18:28:08)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-25 14:39:39

For Void re new topic ....

Your word picture of a lamprey for the opening post in this new topic in Life Support systems reminds me of the huge space creature that I remember from an early Star Trek episode.

I'd like to encourage you to try DALL-E with this concept. You can open an account with DALL-E for free, and you have 15 images per month, dating from the moment you register.

I (for one) would be fascinated to see what DALL-E comes up with, if you are the source of the prompt.

Please make sure you manage this topic so it never strays far from Life Support Systems.

If you need admin assistance you may request it, but I note that you've been successful in managing other topics in the past.

If you ** yourself ** accidentally stray from Life Support Systems, you will be able to correct the placement of the errant post.

(th)

Void · 2024-01-25 17:38:26

Thanks (th), I will down the line work in the directions you suggest. By the way I expanded the title to include various types of small worlds similar in size to asteroids.

A small world may have magnetic materials in it. A vast magnetic field such as is suggested for solar wind sailing may envelop such a small world.

OK the internet is clogged with detritus when I search for what I want. At any rate there are many such magnetic sail concepts, some of them involve dipole magnets. The magnetic envelope involved can be very large, but I am not seeming to get those dimensions.

Well let's set that aside for now, I am quite sure that these magnetic fields can be much larger than Phobos or Deimos.

While having one such magnetic field may allow it to bond magnetically to a small world, I want a world engine with two such fields aiding each other.

We will have to ask Superman to not destroy our world engines though: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR

Well, this won't be that dramatic. Pinching a small world between two magnetic fields.

Phobos and Deimos have little axial tilt so are well suited to this. Put one magnet at each pole of Phobos or Deimos. Make the magnetic fields aiding.

Phobos itself would be pinched between the magnets, and the field would offer some radiation protection.

The poles of these moons may be well suited for solar energy. A solar device may spin on an axis to point to the sun. Only if occulted by another object would the sunlight be blocked.

With this, if we stir up the dust the solar wind will not be able to reach in and sweep it away.

So, I guess I might worry that the solar wind might push them both off of Phobos, so I guess in a strong storm they might be turned off.

But it would also make sense to anchor them into the soil. The wind would be perpendicular to the axis of the magnetic field so the mutual pull might help until you got the anchors in good.

I suppose it makes sense to realize as well that it may be expected that Phobos, (and Deimos) may likely have magnetic materials to cling to as well.

I am not sure how good the protection from radiation might be at these polar areas, but I think it could be good to put mineral processing facilities on them and perhaps living quarters for humans and to have robots.

Where I can then mention the Lamprey devices again, they may also have magnetic fields to maneuver with, although they may also have other methods of motion. I have mentioned those devices in post #1.

Supposing we could get them to fill their rotating belly tanks, then the game might be to bring them to a polar area and then subject those tanks to processing. Hook them up to a power grid and do some actions on the materials collected. It is possible that they might have thrusters of some type, perhaps based on CO2. CO and Oxygen might be better. That would be plenty of power for the situation and if Phobos and Deimos do not have the makings for CO2 then certainly Mars can supply some.

So, this is a quote from post #1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
Quote:
Infrared spectra show that it has carbon-rich material found in carbonaceous chondrites, and its composition shows similarities to that of Mars' surface.[33] Phobos's density is too low to be solid rock, and it is known to have significant porosity.[34][35][36] These results led to the suggestion that Phobos might contain a substantial reservoir of ice. Spectral observations indicate that the surface regolith layer lacks hydration,[37][38] but ice below the regolith is not ruled out.[39][40]
Quote:
Recent images from Mars Global Surveyor indicate that Phobos is covered with a layer of fine-grained regolith at least 100 meters thick; it is hypothesized to have been created by impacts from other bodies, but it is not known how the material stuck to an object with almost no gravity.[48]
So, there may be materials of a diverse mixture and significant volume, which may be of value and might be accessible by the means mentioned in this post.

If there is Carbon in these moons, then excellent. If there is ice in them well halleluiah. But I am not counting on ice.

So, then these moons might become very good areas to host people. You may even be able to install synthetic gravity machines proximate to them.

The notion of the mechanical Lampreys can be subject to innovations and variations.

So, far I have them with a magnetic field, and also perhaps CO and Oxygen thrusters.

Their mouth parts could include wire brushes, that sweep soil into a pinch between them into a mouth, with slow turning propellers that have a pitch to further push the materials into the rotating stomach. They may also have a pogo stick function so that they push off slightly and then come back down to disrupt the surface of Phobos or Deimos. I am hoping that their magnetics will draw them back to the little worlds.

When a Lamprey has a full gut then it is to go to a polar location or I suppose a free-floating platform in orbit of Mars, and have its materials processed.

A possible process would be to inject Carbon and/or Hydrogen into the gut, and heat the whole thing up to draw the Oxygen out and also to bake out the compounds of Carbon and Hydrogen that may be in it.

This would render Iron and Nickle contents to be magnetic perhaps. A magnetic separation process might be used.

Then for that material perhaps a further process, perhaps the Mond process: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond_process

Blue Alchemist may be of use: https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … nar-future

And a process from Europe/Britan to process Lunar materials should be useful as well: https://phys.org/news/2023-06-airbus-ox … the%20Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-25 18:44:21)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-25 18:35:51

For Void ... it is interesting to see how you have expanded the coverage of this this new topic in Life Support Systems.

Every post in this topic needs to have some connection to Life Support Systems.

You had complete freedom where to put this topic, including topics you had previously created. You chose Life Support Systems.

I am looking forward to seeing how you and your fellow NewMars members build up a collection of posts about object mining in support of Life Support Systems.

A list of materials you want to collect for Life Support Systems would be a good place to start.

(th)

Void · 2024-01-25 18:47:16

(th), it may depend on the materials available. Phobos and Deimos perhaps have most common substances, but maybe not water, maybe not as much Carbon as might be desired, but Mars can supply those.

Metal working seems an option. Oxygen extraction. Sintered objects may also be made from tailings. (Leftovers).

I think it is fairly obvious that it would be nice to be able to tank up on Oxygen before landing on Mars, and before leaving Mars for another destination.

The entire orbital assembly could easily include greenhouses, or chemical farming.

The location in orbit of Mars does not have the problem of dust storms or seasons in the same way that the surface does.

Magnetics and bulk materials may give the life support of radiation protection.

How is this not about life support?

These techniques may work for many asteroids and other worlds as well, if they develop as I think they could.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-25 19:04:20)

Void · 2024-01-26 04:53:07

Something which could be specific to Phobos and Deimos is that with such a magnetic system you could fly those moons around on the solar wind. You would simply throttle the size of the magnetic fields to either slow the orbits of those moons or speed them up.

They will have enormous inertia, so any change will be extremely small over a small length of time of course.

So, then if you get into weird things like tethers, you could release payloads from the end of a tether, and so, extract energy from the motion of the moons. If you dropped a load from Phobos, then it might intercept the atmosphere, and you may not have had to fire an engine to cause the change in orbit for that. Deimos could perhaps be a method to launch from Mars. And of course by tethers you could send loads partially on a course towards each other.

I think such tethers are a long way into the future but such things are considered acceptable to talk about.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-26 04:57:14)

Void · 2024-01-26 10:25:05

Excellent materials from Calliban: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 82#p218782
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,170
Email
As this thread is on the terraforming board, I thought it would interesting to determine if certain small bodies have enough gravity to balance the pressure of a breathable atmosphere created in cavities in their interiors. This site provides a neat formula for calculating pressure vs depth within bodies of uniform density.
https://cseligman.com/text/planets/integration.htm
I decided to run the numbers for Phobos and Eros, using their mean radii as the input for R and taking r = 0, i.e. calculating the static pressure at their centres. The answers I got were 60.005KPa for Phobos and 70.815KPa for Eros. On both of these bodies, there is enough static pressure close to their centres to allow tunnels to be pressurised with breathable air. So caves an tunnels could be terraformed, so to speak. For a stony asteroid, a mean radius greater than about 8km allows a breathable pressure close to the centre. For a density close to water, mean radius must exceed 11km. There are plenty of main belt asteroids that meet that criterion and a huge abundance of icy outer solar system bodies.
Eros and Phobos are both practically interesting. Eros has about the right orbit to make it interesting as an Earth-Mars cycler. Phobos is way station for the Earth-Mars transit.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 06:22:16)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

-------------------------

I will tack this onto this post as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
Quote:

Physical characteristics

Top: The impact crater Stickney imaged by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter in March 2008. The second impact crater inside Stickney is Limtoc. Highly saturated, false color image. Bottom: Labeled Map of Phobos – Moon of Mars (U.S. Geological Survey).[30]
Phobos has dimensions of 27 km × 22 km × 18 km,[5] and retains too little mass to be rounded under its own gravity. Phobos does not have an atmosphere due to its low mass and low gravity.[31] It is one of the least reflective bodies in the Solar System, with an albedo of about 0.071.[32] Infrared spectra show that it has carbon-rich material found in carbonaceous chondrites, and its composition shows similarities to that of Mars' surface.[33] Phobos's density is too low to be solid rock, and it is known to have significant porosity.[34][35][36] These results led to the suggestion that Phobos might contain a substantial reservoir of ice. Spectral observations indicate that the surface regolith layer lacks hydration,[37][38] but ice below the regolith is not ruled out.[39][40]

I am going to be encouraged that there is Carbon in some of the materials of Phobos.

I am not going to count on there being ice inside of Phobos, but I think that there could be a Hydrogen cloud: https://science.nasa.gov/resource/elect … on-phobos/ Quote:

Phobos, however, absorbs the solar wind on its dayside, leaving a void over its night side.
Because the electrons are lighter than the ions, they rush in to fill the void.
This creates a field of negative electric potential over Phobos and statically charges its night side.

So, do the positive ions of the solar wind flow though the porous regolith of Phobos? If so, do they slow down and accumulate? Can such a cloud if it exists be a source of Hydrogen?

----------------

This is also of interest: https://www.space.com/phobos-radar-unkn … rs-express
Quote:

Mars moon mystery: Strange structures found inside 'fearful' Phobos
News
By Keith Cooper published October 31, 2022
Understanding the interior structure of Phobos could be key in solving the mystery of its origin.

Image Quote:
Structures, possibly large chunks of rock or much less likely chunks of ice.

It is possible that there are "Chimney" type caves inside of Phobos. Others have pondered it in the Past: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … -of-phobos
Quote:

23
Having read that Phobos at 27 km long is around 30% porous, I am going to assume that there are a number of voids large enough for human entrance. If it turned out there was a void large enough and close enough to the surface somewhere on Phobos, it could be turned into a cheap but spacious habitat during a Mars exploration.
How could a probe detect and map voids? Are there techniques for this? Ground-penetrating radar?
Would the benefits of a pre-existing cave make it worthwhile to convert it into a habitat, or is that just more work than building something on the surface?
Concerns:
100m thick Regolith on Phobos
Seismic instability inside a cave, being as Phobos is a pile of rubble and Mars exerts tidal forces
There may be ice below the regolith - a void next to some ice would be great
Cosmic radiation shielding inside the cave
Retaining an atmosphere inside a cave

So, this may fit well into Callibans notions of tunneling towards the beginnings of this post.

I will grant that at the center of Phobos will be a null gravity, but I still am puzzled as to why 30% porosity is supported when you have all those fines on the surface of Phobos. I guess a pile of huge rocks with caves between them may pull on the fines in the center harder than the center can. But it could also be possible that the voids are filled with something that is not very dense such as ice.

If we invest in a bipolar magnetic clamp for Phobos, when in use it may block the entrance of the solar wind into the regolith of Phobos.
So, we might prefer to modify that if we can in some way do the clamping, let the solar wind in but block it from exiting from the leeward side.

I won't overthink that just now, we do not know if we can harvest Hydrogen in that manner, but it will be nice if we could. If the binary dipole field could be modulated, then in one part of the orbit it could be strong, and in another part weak or turned off. It is possible that this would induce a magnetic field into the magnetic materials of Phobos so the polarity of the fields may need to be switched periodically to nullify that. The process of modulating the strength of the field could raise or lower the orbit of Phobos.

The polar magnetic fields on Phobos would be powered by solar arrays. Most of the time the poles would have sunlight available.

If tunneling were done under each polar station, it may be that large slabs of rock would be encountered. It may be possible to anchor the polar bases into them with cables, and indeed it may be possible to build pressurized space below the surface. It is possible that tunnels could connect the North and South stations.

If well anchored, then it may be possible to extend a cable/track from each pole into higher and lower orbits. They would depend perpendicular to the axis of the polar bases of Phobos, or perhaps more tunneling would allow bases at the equator of Phobos, one on the side facing Mars and one on the side facing away from Mars.

If those cables supported induced magnetism, then they may become a different kind of Mass Driver for ships. Something like the magnetic propulsion on advanced trains. I am not sure how well this would work, but I found this: https://science.howstuffworks.com/trans … propulsion. Quote:

How Maglev Trains Work
By: Kevin Bonsor & Nathan Chandler

But things like that may come much later in the future of Phobos.

I think that I will stop there for now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-26 11:24:05)

Void · 2024-01-26 12:23:02

If polar stations were established on Phobos, then the same structures that capture the sunlight for power could assist in creating a deep cold in their shade, so then perhaps Superconductors could be used for the magnets.

Here us some material: https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2014/08 … tic-sails/ I am pretty sure that the magnetic fields can completely envelop Phobos, if it is desired to employ that much power to do it.

After all there are notions of shielding the entirety of Mars from the solar wind with an artificial magnetic field in the L1 of Mars. Unlike using such magnetic fields to push spacecraft, there would be much less concern about large mass to the machines. More mass may make it easier to keep them in place on the poles of Phobos.

Now there is the return of the question of the Lamprey Machines. It was in post #1 of this topic: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 63#p218763

So, we could have chemical thrusters on them, I have considered CO and O2 as the propellants for that.

We could also hop them. They would have methods to repel from the surface of Phobos. Of course, gravitationally this is risky as if they hop too strongly then they would need to use a method of propulsion to return to Phobos.

But we will also have the two polar magnetic fields, and also the magnetic materials of Phobos itself. I would hope that these devices could also use that, maybe in preference to using thrusters, if possible.

As I see it, perhaps early on the method would be to grab materials from the surface of Phobos and then bring them to processing facilities which may be at the polar locations. Later though if it becomes possible to tunnel between big chunks of rock internal to phobos, then that may become the source of raw materials to turn in to resources.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-26 12:38:52)

tahanson43206 · 2024-04-01 08:17:31

tahanson43206 wrote:

This post is about the ice injection asteroid mining concept originated by our Alaskan correspondent in the Knowledge forum.
There are several innovations to be attempted here, and I have some uncertainty about how well everything is going to work.
The link below is to a Google Document that is rendered in PDF format.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-z0UvZ … sp=sharing
If the link works, the file contains a conversation with Gemini in which two individuals participate.
The opening sequence was guided by the Alaskan, and I picked up the thread and carried it to a conclusion (of sorts)
The concluding sequence covers the use of the Moon as a suitable test environment for the Injected Ice harvesting method.
(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-10-09 06:06:42

A discussion of asteroid capture in a Moon topic might fit in this topic as well.

(th)

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#1 2024-01-25 13:37:54

Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

#2 2024-01-25 14:39:39

Re: Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

#3 2024-01-25 17:38:26

Re: Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

#4 2024-01-25 18:35:51

Re: Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

#5 2024-01-25 18:47:16

Re: Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

#6 2024-01-26 04:53:07

Re: Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

#7 2024-01-26 10:25:05

Re: Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

#8 2024-01-26 12:23:02

Re: Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

#9 2024-04-01 08:17:31

Re: Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

#10 2024-10-09 06:06:42

Re: Asteroid, Centaur, Comet and small moon Mining

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