The EM-Drive Starship

Antius · 2016-12-15 08:35:55

JoshNH4H wrote:

Antique,
I am well aware that they are different technologies, but both were mentioned in this thread.
kbd512,
Please save your nonsense for someone who cares.

I am a nuclear engineer, not a physicist. But I do know that nuclear fusion is taking place in the cup of tea on my desk all the time. Occasionally, a quantum tunnelling effect will bring two nuclei close enough together for a nuclear reaction to occur. Also, cosmic rays are showering the tea with muons, which will result in muon catalysed fusion. Occasionally, a high energy cosmic ray will tunnel through the Earth’s atmosphere and strike matter close to my desk, creating a pion. In the fraction of a microsecond before it decays, it may bond to a hydrogen atom within my tea cup, reducing inter-atomic radii enough to allow fusion to take place. Virtual particles pop in and out of existence and may catalyse nuclear reactions before they disappear again.

These things really do happen and they happen all the time. Physicists know and acknowledge that they happen. It is not controversial that they happen. It is just that they are not expected to occur at the rate that LENR enthusiasts are alluding to; but they do happen at a detectable rate. We even make use of them in nuclear reactors. The tiny number of stray neutrons yielded by water under the action of cosmic rays has a significant effect on average neutron lifetime prior to start-up and helps to render the nuclear reaction more controllable, especially at low power levels. Bear in mind, quantum mechanics may still be responsible for phenomena that we do not yet anticipate. It is still less than a century old. Who is to say that LENR researchers have not discovered a means of utilising such an effect to catalyse a nuclear reaction? I won’t be investing money in it until the evidence is conclusive, but I won’t dismiss them as cranks.

kbd512 · 2016-12-15 10:23:54

JoshNH4H wrote:

Antique,
I am well aware that they are different technologies, but both were mentioned in this thread.
kbd512,
Please save your nonsense for someone who cares.

I had no idea that there was such animosity towards real science, but thanks for the revelation, Josh. I guess that whenever you question someone's belief system, no matter how logically invalid their belief system may be, this is the type of feedback you get. It's clear to me that science has its own share of religious zealots worshipping at the altar of the theory of relativity. While you're preaching the sermon to the rest of the congregation, some of us would like to fill the cracks in the foundation so the church's walls stay vertical.

Have a nice day

GW Johnson · 2016-12-15 16:18:41

Animosity is not equal to healthy skepticism. So that remark was uncalled-for.

There may, or may not, be anything to these "magic" EM drives. The test will hopefully determine that. If there is something to it, then some revisions or additions to physics may be needed. As of now, there is not even general agreement that such oddities as dark matter and dark energy really exist, or that there really is the quantum virtual particle stuff, much less thrust from these oddball EM drives. Perhaps having to explain a nonzero thrust without flinging matter may elucidate some of this other stuff. Or maybe not, we'll see.

What I don't see in this set of discussion threads is the requisite healthy skepticism on the part multiple correspondents over this EM drive. The speculations and claims about this drive have run almost as idiotically wild as the claims made in political campaigns of late. That nonsense does not befit people of science, whether they are actual practitioners of science or not.

The wild enthusiasm is not justified at all, until the test has been run, and then only if the presence of thrust without throwing matter can be confirmed, and unambiguously at that.

GW

SpaceNut · 2016-12-15 19:40:57

The later means we need to bring the rig to orbit and set it lose to find out for sure.....

Void · 2016-12-15 22:25:50

Lets be friends, lets be nice. I'm not innocent. I prefer to continue to try to lift the loads, find a way to progress.

Terraformer · 2016-12-16 13:30:01

If they unambiguously demonstrate an (apparently) reactionless thrust, we will know something is wrong with our understanding of the universe - though it probably won't be the conservation laws (on the other hand, the existence of the universe demonstrates that either the first or second laws of thermodynamics aren't always true). There would likely be a reaction somewhere, whether against the entire universe (Mach Effect), virtual particles (I'm still not sure how that's meant to work...), or dark matter. Until they demonstrate it, though, I'm not going to make plans for using it. But I also won't rule it out.

GW Johnson · 2016-12-16 13:38:29

Again, I try to be the open-minded skeptic. Yes, absolutely, test the thing. If it works, develop it and use it. Then get all excited about it. We can get all the physics explanations later.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2016-12-16 13:38:56)

Void · 2016-12-16 13:53:44

I really am in over my head, but I will present this:
http://thescienceexplorer.com/universe/ … first-test
http://phys.org/news/2016-11-theory-gravity-dark.html

All I am capable of saying about this is:
-There might not be dark matter.
-Einstine might be wrong about gravity.
-If gravity in part is due to information stored in the structure of space time (Huh?), can we hack it and make it send us bit coins?

Seriously, though with this much flux in the notion of reality, we really don't know what reality is in some cases, I think.

Quote:

"At large scales, it seems, gravity just doesn't behave the way Einstein's theory predicts."

So, for myself I can declare for sure that I don't know the extent of what I don't know. That's pretty safe to say in any case.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-16 14:00:41)

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-12-17 09:44:42

Terraformer wrote:

If they unambiguously demonstrate an (apparently) reactionless thrust, we will know something is wrong with our understanding of the universe - though it probably won't be the conservation laws (on the other hand, the existence of the universe demonstrates that either the first or second laws of thermodynamics aren't always true). There would likely be a reaction somewhere, whether against the entire universe (Mach Effect), virtual particles (I'm still not sure how that's meant to work...), or dark matter. Until they demonstrate it, though, I'm not going to make plans for using it. But I also won't rule it out.

One possibility is the Universe we live in is a simulation, and the EM drive is taking advantage in a loophole of this imperfect simulation of the Universe, or maybe it was meant to be some low hanging fruit. After all, why simulate all those stars if we can't get to them?

Terraformer · 2016-12-17 11:11:37

If the universe is a simulation, I hope the god(s) who are simulating it allow us instantaneous travel, and put an infinite lifespan on it - something they can do because in their universe events happen simultaneously.

We can know this because of quantum entanglement, something which we couldn't include in a lower level simulation due to the finite speed of information processing. It's pretty much "If simulation, then infinite God".

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-12-17 20:36:31

I don't know, since I can't avoid death, I guess I have no choice but to go through with it. Be nice if there would be some medical discovery in 20 to 30 years that would allow me to postpone my death.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-26 17:54:49

First Experimental Proof That Quantum Entanglement Is Real
https://scitechdaily.com/first-experime … t-is-real/

SpaceX-Affiliated Group Giving Out Funding for Warp Drive Research
https://futurism.com/the-byte/group-fun … p-research

Where could it all be looking? Dark Matter, Dark Energy?

A wormhole is a speculative structure connecting distant points spacetime, a work around FTL short cut solution of the Einstein equations. Gluons are though to hold quarks together to make bigger particles, Gluons carry strong force between other quarks, so it is considered a force carrying 'particle'. A quark is an elementary particle that makes up hadrons, such as protons and neutrons. There are six types of quarks, each called flavors. They are the up, down, strange, charm, top (also called truth) and bottom (also called beauty). Pion or a pi meson, denoted with the Greek letter pi π is any of three subatomic particles π0 , π+, and π−. Each pion consists of a quark and an antiquark and is therefore a meson. The lepton is an elementary particle of half-integer spin or spin 1⁄2 that does not undergo strong interactions. Two main classes of leptons exist: charged leptons known as the electron-like leptons or muons, and neutral leptons better known as neutrinos. muon has a corresponding antiparticle of opposite charge (+1 e) but equal mass and spin: the antimuon (also called a positive muon). Muons are denoted by μ− and antimuons by μ+. Formerly, muons were called mu mesons, but are not classified as mesons by modern physicists. The Higgs Boson is an elementary particle with the symbol H. It is the only scalar boson discovered so far. The idea for FTL communications revolves around quantum entanglement, a phenomenon Einstein described as “spooky action at a distance”.

This link came from another newmars topic and a link to NASA's website

If you would like to know more about the theories of interstellar flight, you should visit the Tau Zero Foundation. Marc Millis, a former NASA Glenn physicist, founded the organization to consider revolutionary advancements in propulsion.
https://tauzero.aero/
Past articles of warp drive found at this location have been archived.

'The Tau Zero Foundation
Pioneering

Interstellar Flight

A coalition of researchers, educators, makers, and visionaries who pioneer bridge-building methods, develop solutions, and inspire us all toward interstellar'

Calliban · 2024-01-24 06:27:15

Propellantless Quantum Drive to be tested in space!
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/01/d … -test.html

If it works (it probably wont) it would give us the keys to the universe. It would mean airline like travel to the moon, Mars and asteroids, launching from Earth surface. The outer planets would be weeks away instead of decades. Interstellar travel would take decades, rather than centuries or millenia. It would allow anti-gravity and propellantless fight in Earth atmosphere. Energy generation from the quantum vacuum. It would change our world very dramatically and very quickly. Fingers crossed!

Last edited by Calliban (2024-01-24 06:28:07)

GW Johnson · 2024-01-24 12:59:14

This is a test of a radical theory. If the theory is correct, it might lead to breakthroughs. But the odds are against it being correct. So I wouldn't hold my breath.

GW

Calliban · 2024-02-14 05:17:29

The Barry-1 satellite carrying the Unrue drive has suffered a power failure and all communications have been lost.
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/02/s … rives.html

Frustratingly, the drive was never activated. We will have to wait a while longer to see this concept tested in space.

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#26 2016-12-15 08:35:55

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#27 2016-12-15 10:23:54

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#28 2016-12-15 16:18:41

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#29 2016-12-15 19:40:57

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#30 2016-12-15 22:25:50

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#31 2016-12-16 13:30:01

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#32 2016-12-16 13:38:29

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#33 2016-12-16 13:53:44

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#34 2016-12-17 09:44:42

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#35 2016-12-17 11:11:37

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#36 2016-12-17 20:36:31

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#37 2022-10-26 17:54:49

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#38 2024-01-24 06:27:15

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#39 2024-01-24 12:59:14

Re: The EM-Drive Starship

#40 2024-02-14 05:17:29

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