'smoking gun evidence that water was on Mars'

Free Spirit · 2003-11-15 04:12:31

In case you don't get the Mars Society update emails, I just found the following in my mailbox:

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:05:49 -0000
From: "zubrin1" <zubrin@aol.com>
Subject: MGS Produces "Smoking Gun" Evidence for Persistent Liquid
Water on Mars
MGS Produces "Smoking Gun" Evidence for Persistent Liquid Water on
Mars
Nov. 14, 2003
For further information about the Mars Society, visit our website at
www.marssociety.org.
In a dramatic discovery of extraordinary scientific importance, the
Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) imaging team at Malin Space Science
Systems has produced what have been termed "smoking gun" photographs
proving beyond question the "persistent" existence of large
quantities of liquid water on the surface of Mars during the planet's
youth.
The discovery is of critical importance because it means that early
Mars could have supported a biosphere. The scientific importance of
investigating what happened to it cannot be overstated.
The Malin Space Science press release states:
"This week, the journal Science has published online (in Science
Express) the most recent MOC discovery: an ancient, eroded, and
exhumed sedimentary distributary fan located in a crater at 24.3?S,
33.5?W. A distributary fan is a generic term used by geologists to
describe a family of deposits that includes river deltas and alluvial
fans. Sometime in the distant past, when it was still possible for
liquid water to flow across the Martian surface, sediments
transported through valleys by water formed a fan-shaped deposit in a
64-kilometer (40 miles) -diameter crater northeast of Holden Crater.
What is important about this discovery? First, it provides clear,
unequivocal evidence that some valleys on Mars experienced the same
type of on-going, or, persistent, flow over long periods of time as
rivers do on Earth. Second, because the fan is today a deposit of
sedimentary rock, it demonstrates that some sedimentary rocks on Mars
were, as has been suspected but never clearly demonstrated, deposited
in a liquid (probably water) environment. Third, the general shape,
pattern of its channels, and low topographic slopes provide
circumstantial evidence that the feature was actually a delta--that
is, a deposit made when a river or stream enters a body of water. In
other words, the landform discovered by MOC may be the strongest
indicator yet that some craters and other depressions on Mars once
held lakes. Although hundreds of other locations on Mars where
valleys enter craters and basins have been imaged by MOC, this is the
first to show landforms like those presented here."
The complete MSSS release, together with photos proving the discovery
can be found on the internet at
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/11/13/
The Malin MGS discovery marks Mars as the Rosetta Stone for letting
us know the truth about the prevalence and potential diversity of
life in the universe. At a time when NASA is trying to figure out
what should be the goal of its human exploration program, the finding
is decisive.
Mars: If we don't go, we won't know.
For further information about the Mars Society, visit our website at
www.marssociety.com.

sethmckiness · 2003-11-15 22:09:38

The third image, MOC2-543c, shows a critical observation: the loop at the center of the picture is the inverted form of a former meandering stream that was cut off as the channel adjusted its course. Meanders and cut-off meanders are the prime evidence for on-going, persistent flow of water through this area some time early in martian history.

This is a good shot of a 'possible' channel and ox-bow lake.(what happens when a meander is cut off from the channel copmletely but due to the water table still has water in it, until such time that it fills in by natural sediment build up.

The other two pictures are nowhere near as persuasive as the ox-bow lake with the channel. But they could be 3 billion years old.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-11-17 07:41:53

It's funny they didn't emphasise a crater count to determine how old these surfaces really could be.
It looks to me like there are too few craters for 3 billion years worth of elapsed time (?). But I don't profess to be an expert in these things.
Anybody able to make an informed judgment?
???

sethmckiness · 2003-11-18 02:48:56

IMHO, I believe that too little is know about martian history meteroligcally and Geologically(specifically with tectonics and volcanology) to even begin to theorize dating by craters. The main reason I say that is due to how little we know about the history of the Martian Atmosphere. If it has slowly thinned over the last 3.5 billions years it may explain why it doesn't look like Mercury or the Moon. Or if it's Magnetosphere failed/faded to minimal levels some time ago allowing for the atmosphere to slowly be blown away(literally). The other possibility would lie in a plate-tectonic and active volcanic activity on Mars. Leading to a rejeuvenating surface. I am sure there are many other possibilities.

Just my thoughts.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-11-18 07:14:42

Hi Seth!
I understand your reasoning and agree with it. Mars is indeed too enigmatic to be sure about almost anything!
You're certainly not alone in doubting the utility of crater-counting and I'm inclined to agree with those who think that, on Mars, a heavily cratered region may not necessarily be extremely ancient. I realise that even the experts have their doubts.

However, given that all surfaces on any planet with a thin or non-existent atmosphere must, even in today's relatively empty solar system, gradually accumulate impact scars, surely a lack of numerous craters must indicate a youngish surface (?).
I just wonder whether Mars may have had longish episodes of higher atmospheric pressure and warmer temperatures in relatively recent times. The uncratered sand dunes in the Olympus caldera are perhaps also good evidence for such a notion, since they must be quite young and yet today's atmosphere, especially at that altitude, is too tenuous to blow sand into characteristic dune shapes.

God, I wish we could send astronauts to Mars soon!
There are just so many questions to be answered and I'm not getting any younger. How anybody can resist the allure of that fascinating planet is beyond me!

Wim · 2003-11-18 14:55:28

God, I wish we could send astronauts to Mars soon!
There are just so many questions to be answered and I'm not getting any younger. How anybody can resist the allure of that fascinating planet is beyond me!

I follow you Shaun, so many questions, so little time !
When I even just start thinking about the day the first human will set foot on Mars, that will be so 'world news'. I know I'll drink a couple to that.

dickbill · 2003-11-19 14:19:36

Yesterday on NOVA channel, excellent documentary about how could Mars have lost its atmosphere: through the early disparition of the Martian magnetic field, 4 billlions years ago, they estimate that based on Hellas and Argyre age. The field, they said, was already gone when Argyre and hellas impact bassin formed, 4 billions years ago.
Beside that, they also estimate that the early martian magnetic field could have been 50 more intense than earth and that there is also small areas on MArs with a very intense fossil field.
When Mars lost its magnetic field, the atmosphere was inexorably eroded by the solar wind and slowly disapeared.

Why Mars lost its magnetic field so early ? probably because the liquid core solidified too quickly and stopped rotating, due to Mars small size, Mars lost his heat much faster than earth.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-11-19 20:05:37

I wish I'd seen that program, Dickbill. It sounds interesting.
However, I still haven't heard a hypothesis that ties up all the loose ends of Martian geological history.
I know the Hellas and Argyre events appear to have taken place after the demise of the global magnetic field, since the floors of these two impact basins lack any 'fossil' magnetic imprint. But to attribute the shutting down of the global field to the swift cooling of the Martian interior, doesn't make sense. There are regions of Mars' surface which carry unmistakable evidence of absolutely enormous outflows of lava in geologically recent times - outflows similar to the eruptions which formed the Siberian and Deccan Traps here on Earth. In addition, it is recognised that the Tharsis volcanoes must have been producing lava well into recent times too, since they are very largely crater free on much of their surfaces.

I don't think the interior of Mars is cold. I think we'll find that Mars is still volcanically very much alive and I have a hunch Dr. J. Marvin Herndon may well be right about giant natural fission reactors in the cores of planets.

If Mars did indeed lose its global field 4 billion years ago, I don't think it could have been due to cooling of its interior, a notion which just doesn't fit the facts.
I think the whole mystery says more about our lack of understanding of how planetary magnetic fields are formed and maintained than it does about Mars' internal heat.
???

dickbill · 2003-11-20 07:56:45

I wish I'd seen that program, Dickbill. It sounds interesting.
However, I still haven't heard a hypothesis that ties up all the loose ends of Martian geological history.
I know the Hellas and Argyre events appear to have taken place after the demise of the global magnetic field, since the floors of these two impact basins lack any 'fossil' magnetic imprint. But to attribute the shutting down of the global field to the swift cooling of the Martian interior, doesn't make sense. There are regions of Mars' surface which carry unmistakable evidence of absolutely enormous outflows of lava in geologically recent times - outflows similar to the eruptions which formed the Siberian and Deccan Traps here on Earth. In addition, it is recognised that the Tharsis volcanoes must have been producing lava well into recent times too, since they are very largely crater free on much of their surfaces.
I don't think the interior of Mars is cold. I think we'll find that Mars is still volcanically very much alive and I have a hunch Dr. J. Marvin Herndon may well be right about giant natural fission reactors in the cores of planets.
If Mars did indeed lose its global field 4 billion years ago, I don't think it could have been due to cooling of its interior, a notion which just doesn't fit the facts.
I think the whole mystery says more about our lack of understanding of how planetary magnetic fields are formed and maintained than it does about Mars' internal heat.
???

Shaun, the martian core is probably warm enough to have some active "plume" convection currents, but it also needs to rotate, if I undestood well, to generate the magnetic field. I am not sure. Or something needs to rotate inside the core.
To study the convection plumes in a planetary core they use a sphere of melted sodium inside a magnetic field, I don't remember if the sphere was rotating or not.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-11-20 08:04:39

I hear you, Dickbill.

Who knows? ... Maybe the pulverising force of the Hellas event somehow stopped the core rotating and the magnetic field stopped with it .. forever.

Such a pity.

dickbill · 2003-11-20 11:00:17

I hear you, Dickbill.
Who knows? ... Maybe the pulverising force of the Hellas event somehow stopped the core rotating and the magnetic field stopped with it .. forever.

Such a pity.

We need a geologist in this forum, and more scientists in general. I guess they are too busy.....naah don't tell me post doctoral fellows and grad students cannot find time to surf on the internet.

sethmckiness · 2003-11-20 22:40:55

I have all the structural Geology done for my BS, actually the advanced Structure I took is a borderline GRaduate level class, but my Geophysics is very weak.. so, I am no help there. I do plan on going back to school, and finishing my degree in Geology.. so maybe at somepoint I can become more helpful...

dickbill · 2003-11-21 09:16:28

I have all the structural Geology done for my BS, actually the advanced Structure I took is a borderline GRaduate level class, but my Geophysics is very weak.. so, I am no help there. I do plan on going back to school, and finishing my degree in Geology.. so maybe at somepoint I can become more helpful...

Seth, yes please, finish your degree. In a couple of months we gonna have plenty of geological data to talk about (the rovers) so it would be nice to have people familiar with the concepts onboard.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-11-22 01:51:19

Yes please, Seth.
Study hard so you can hedgamacate the rest of us!

sethmckiness · 2003-11-22 03:54:10

Well, 4 months of the chAIR FORCE left then (fingers crossed) back to school next fall.. The basic surface stuff should be fun, I have never been into the Geophysics anyway.. too much damn math. I like to picture it in my head,,m screw the Math that is more complicated then some of my more psycho ex-girlfriends...

rgcarnes · 2003-12-08 20:17:50

Brief terminology question:

How can a petrified and exumed "gun" be still smoking? ???

Shaun Barrett · 2003-12-09 00:50:04

Ha-ha !!
:laugh:

Good point, Rex.

sethmckiness · 2003-12-09 09:05:00

Brief terminology question:
How can a petrified and exumed "gun" be still smoking?

Cause it's that cool.. d'uh! :-)
Just because it's old it still likes Camels.
hmm, I would try to think up 8 more, but I can guarantee they would only get worse, and considering how bad these are.... I will stop.

dickbill · 2003-12-18 12:36:05

It's almost time for big excitement, Mars Express is on its way !

All the science aboard seems like the Odyssey science payload, exception of the 3d color camera, but I think the most exciting instrument might be MARSIS :
(taken from MArs express web site)

MARSIS Sub-Surface Sounding Radar Altimeter

MARSIS will map the sub-surface structure to a depth of a few kilometres. The instrument's 40-metre long antenna will send low frequency radio waves towards the planet, which will be reflected from any surface they encounter.

For most, this will be the surface of Mars, but a significant fraction will travel through the crust to be reflected at sub-surface interfaces between layers of different material, including water or ice....

probing the first kms of martian subsurface with a 40 meters long antenna, wow !
Imagine, some people have argued that the martian crust is spongious, made of bubbles or huge caves, filled with water maybe...

sethmckiness · 2003-12-25 15:28:36

Yippee, I love the people that are going to Mars with new science, opposed to trying to find life. While try to find life is cool, and neat, I enjoy the real science...

clark · 2004-01-30 13:09:47

What is this: Click on the link, which will take you to a close up of NASA's picture of the day: Tractus Fossae Pit Chain

If you look at the upper portion, about 3/4 of an inch (2-3cm) from the top, you will see a long dark splotch running down the side of a hill. The coloration is unique when compared to the rest of the landscape, and it seems to be running downhill.

If I had to guess, I would say it was water, or the marks of water... or is it just shadows?

[http://images.spaceref.com/news/2004/20 … 300250.gif]http://images.spaceref.com/news/2004/20 … 300250.gif

I think I have seen other pictures like this, or at least others have made claims that similar signs have been found elsewhere on Mars. Am I just seeing this?

Rxke · 2004-01-30 13:40:34

Impressive!

had to rotate it 180 deg to get it 'right' again (something wrong with my brain, i see hills instead of craters, and can't make the switch, mentally...)

lower down on the pic there are similar things like that, longer, a bit more sinuous. On the 'opposite side of another pit, so it is not a shadow (?)

Amazing landscape, those pits... Remember having seen something like that in real life in Germany, a giant depression, stripped of all plant life... eerie silence, now and then you could hear bits of rock tumbling down... was too young then to remember today what causes this.

there must be 'something' taking away material down those pits, but what? Most logical explanation would be water, but i really don't know?

Where are the rock-hounds in this forum?

Shaun Barrett · 2004-01-30 22:39:48

Those marks look typical of the thousands of dark 'stains' found by the MGS, often originating from the walls of craters and valleys and usually from a specific layer a short distance (perhaps tens of metres) below the surface of the surrounding plains.
Repeat photos of the same stains some time after the first shots have shown that they fade gradually over short time spans (days or weeks, I can't remember).
As I understand it, the consensus is that it's almost certainly water, or rather brine. I remember NASA scientist Chris McKay speculating in an article somewhere on the net that the dark colouration might even be some form of life responding to the sudden appearance of a stream of salty water and 'blooming' while the blooming was good!
I assume he wondered about such a possibility because the stains are dark and tend to last longer than you might expect a simple wet brine-stain to last(?). Also, wouldn't a drying brine stain tend to leave a streak of some kind of salt, and wouldn't such a streak be pale or even white, rather than dark?
???

rgcarnes · 2004-01-31 00:24:19

Some images showing dark streaks also show light streaks down slopes. Malin, of MSSS.com, says that they are landslides of dust.

One of the first (other than those seen during the Viking missions) images of these streaks was of the interior of a crater about 6 degrees south of the martian equator. They made an anaglyph image made up from an image made during the Mars Global Surveyor air braking period and an image made somewhat later.

I became convinced that the streaks were water based when I noticed that there were subtle indications of significant meandering features at the ends of some of the streaks, and also structures, similar to the hot spring deposited canopies found at Sitting Bull Falls in Lincoln National Forest in New Mexico, were noticable at or near their origins high on the crater walls.

Rxke · 2004-02-20 12:16:25

Old news, but in combination with Clark's link above and tantalising clues of brine at the rover's site(s)...
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/2846897.stm]Brine on Olympus Mons

One remark: if all these things turn out to be true, would that not kind of prove there is *no* life? If there is so much liquid water near the surface, and yet no traces of life to be seen... Or metabolisation gasses, like free O2, methane...

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#1 2003-11-15 04:12:31

Re: 'smoking gun evidence that water was on Mars'

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Re: 'smoking gun evidence that water was on Mars'

#3 2003-11-17 07:41:53

Re: 'smoking gun evidence that water was on Mars'

#4 2003-11-18 02:48:56

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#5 2003-11-18 07:14:42

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#8 2003-11-19 20:05:37

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#9 2003-11-20 07:56:45

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#10 2003-11-20 08:04:39

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#11 2003-11-20 11:00:17

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#12 2003-11-20 22:40:55

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#13 2003-11-21 09:16:28

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#14 2003-11-22 01:51:19

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#15 2003-11-22 03:54:10

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#16 2003-12-08 20:17:50

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#17 2003-12-09 00:50:04

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#18 2003-12-09 09:05:00

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#19 2003-12-18 12:36:05

Re: 'smoking gun evidence that water was on Mars'

#20 2003-12-25 15:28:36

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#21 2004-01-30 13:09:47

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#22 2004-01-30 13:40:34

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#23 2004-01-30 22:39:48

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#24 2004-01-31 00:24:19

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#25 2004-02-20 12:16:25

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